New Views on the Rapture

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, kjhughes.

Do not attempt to speak presumptuously for Yeshua`! Speak for yourself, and let HIM speak to us through His Word by QUOTING Him! You are NOT the Mashiach!

 

[veteran]

Shalom, kjhughes.

Do not attempt to speak presumptuously for Yeshua`! Speak for yourself, and let HIM speak to us through His Word by QUOTING Him! You are NOT the Mashiach!

Presumtous he is, for on another thread he posted a tract where GOD Himself supposedly spoke directly to Jack Van Impe suggesting the Pre-trib Rapture idea is true. The guy is a false prophet, big time.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, veteran.

Presumtous he is, for on another thread he posted a tract where GOD Himself supposedly spoke directly to Jack Van Impe suggesting the Pre-trib Rapture idea is true. The guy is a false prophet, big time.

And, he's also a bit of a troll, throwing something into every topic on the board, don't you think?

 

[kjhughes]

Shalom, kjhughes.

Do not attempt to speak presumptuously for Yeshua`! Speak for yourself, and let HIM speak to us through His Word by QUOTING Him! You are NOT the Mashiach!

I am not speaking for him. He is speaking for himself.

on another thread he posted a tract where GOD Himself supposedly spoke directly to Jack Van Impe suggesting the Pre-trib Rapture idea is true.

Would you kindly post that thread? I didn't read anything like that in there. He said Van Impe was his servant. Why are you twisting his words?

Shalom, veteran.



And, he's also a bit of a troll, throwing something into every topic on the board, don't you think?

You can post on every topic but I can't?

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, kjhughes.

Why are YOU twisting His words? JUST QUOTE SCRIPTURE!

 

[kjhughes]

I Alone Sit as Judge, Says The Lord

4/2/10 From God The Father - A Letter Given to Timothy, For All Those Who Have Ears to Hear - Regarding the Words of Scoffers

Thus says The Lord: Nothing coming from the mouth of those, who scoff and push out the lip against The Lord’s anointed, whether they be a spouse or a stranger, shall be accounted as true; neither shall any weight be given to their arguments... It is wind. Let their controversies be brought before The Lord, only... Or let it be cast upon the dunghill, for this is the weight their words carry in My eyes, and this is the value I have given to their assertions, says The Lord. For I am the only Judge, and those who endeavor to sit upon My throne, in the judgment of others, shall be cast down... Whether their argument is just, or whether it is filled with deceit and evil intentions. For any, who cast judgment or condemn, have no forgiveness in their hearts, and have departed from love, embracing pride, with judgment flowing from a heart of unbridled arrogance. They shall be cast down, with their every word falling to the ground, says The Lord of Hosts...


For My judgment shall go forth, and My word shall stand,
With My name exalted in all the earth!

Even the words of My prophets, which have gone forth,
Shall by no means fall to the ground, for I, even I, uphold them...

It is MY Word they trumpet, the sound of which shall never pass away.



For I sit as judge over all the earth, for it is My footstool!...

Even the whole of the universe is subject to My every word,
Yes, every command, which proceeds from the mouth of The Almighty...

Says He, who is from everlasting to everlasting,
Whose will shall be made manifest...

IT SHALL BE DONE.

 

[veteran]

Would you kindly post that thread? I didn't read anything like that in there. He said Van Impe was his servant. Why are you twisting his words?

Actually, it was your post #256 here on this present thread.

Question asked by Timothy: Lord, is Jack Van Impe’s idea of Heaven correct?

[Answer from God The Father] All these things I say to you are tried and true, and yours to know through The Holy Spirit. For these things regarding Heaven and its location, spoken of by My servant Van Impe, are true, save these: No one may know Heaven, or where it abounds, until the due time. I shall bring from My Heaven, a new Heaven to earth, for all men... And with them shall I dwell. Those caught up with The Son shall know Heaven and My dwelling place, for I also dwell with men. Heaven is not defined by space and time, nor measure or distance... For it is and is not. Men have not the mind, nor understanding, to know such things, until their transformation from the perishable to the imperishable.

Such statements as those presume to speak directly for God, saying He said, when He did not endorse Jack Van Impe at all.

 

[kjhughes]

on another thread he posted a tract where GOD Himself supposedly spoke directly to Jack Van Impe suggesting the Pre-trib Rapture idea is true.

"For these things regarding Heaven and its location, spoken of by My servant Van Impe, are true, save these: No one may know Heaven, or where it abounds, until the due time."

Show me now where in here in this thread that it says "God spoke directly to Jack Van Impe suggesting the Pre-trib Rapture idea is true."
All I am reading in this thread is "My servant Van Impe"

God said Van Impe was his servant, quit twisting God's word!

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, kjhughes.

"For these things regarding Heaven and its location, spoken of by My servant Van Impe, are true, save these: No one may know Heaven, or where it abounds, until the due time."

Show me now where in here in this thread that it says "God spoke directly to Jack Van Impe suggesting the Pre-trib Rapture idea is true."
All I am reading in this thread is "My servant Van Impe"

God said Van Impe was his servant, quit twisting God's word!

Book, chapter and verse, please.

Shalom, kjhughes.

I Alone Sit as Judge, Says The Lord

4/2/10 From God The Father - A Letter Given to Timothy, For All Those Who Have Ears to Hear - Regarding the Words of Scoffers

Thus says The Lord: Nothing coming from the mouth of those, who scoff and push out the lip against The Lord’s anointed, whether they be a spouse or a stranger, shall be accounted as true; neither shall any weight be given to their arguments... It is wind. Let their controversies be brought before The Lord, only... Or let it be cast upon the dunghill, for this is the weight their words carry in My eyes, and this is the value I have given to their assertions, says The Lord. For I am the only Judge, and those who endeavor to sit upon My throne, in the judgment of others, shall be cast down... Whether their argument is just, or whether it is filled with deceit and evil intentions. For any, who cast judgment or condemn, have no forgiveness in their hearts, and have departed from love, embracing pride, with judgment flowing from a heart of unbridled arrogance. They shall be cast down, with their every word falling to the ground, says The Lord of Hosts...


For My judgment shall go forth, and My word shall stand,
With My name exalted in all the earth!

Even the words of My prophets, which have gone forth,
Shall by no means fall to the ground, for I, even I, uphold them...

It is MY Word they trumpet, the sound of which shall never pass away.



For I sit as judge over all the earth, for it is My footstool!...

Even the whole of the universe is subject to My every word,
Yes, every command, which proceeds from the mouth of The Almighty...

Says He, who is from everlasting to everlasting,
Whose will shall be made manifest...

IT SHALL BE DONE.

I don't know you from Adam. If you're not this "Timothy," then who is he? and why are his letters so valuable to you? Why would you propagate them so voraciously? WHY WOULD YOU CARE?! These "letters from God" are about as insidious as possible! Much of them are pulled directly from Scripture (without any references, btw), but they are infused with fiction! There's nothing worse than a half-lie! A complete lie is easy to spot, but a half-lie is something that haSatan would concoct!

 

[revturmoil]

Presumtous he is, for on another thread he posted a tract where GOD Himself supposedly spoke directly to Jack Van Impe suggesting the Pre-trib Rapture idea is true. The guy is a false prophet, big time.

He can't be a false prophet because there are no longer any prophets...but we can prophesy. He just harbors false doctrine!

If harboring and teaching false doctrine constitutes a false prophet we would all be lost!

 

[[email protected]]

The mainstream belief about the rapture is that a large group of Christians will physically, and all at the same time, disappear and be lifted up to the higher atmosphere to meet the lord literally in the sky.

THE RAPTURE is not a mainstream belief. In fact it isn't even Biblical.

While the Bible strongly states that Jesus will return a second time it clearly doesn't state that Jesus will return three or four times as multiple iterations of rapturisms imply. The Bible is marvelously logical. Rapture theory? Not so much. Its full of incongruities which keep its adherents very busy apologizing and supposing to support. For example, what do you do with the babies and the mentally incompetent? Rubbish. The whole thing is rubbish and the only thing rubbish is good for is to be tossed out.

Additionally, the rapture theory is purely an American invention.

It began with John Nelson Darby's attempts for publish a single logical interpretation of millennialism, itself a subject of multiple lines of academic debate. Darby's theory was called Dispensationalism and served at minimum as a frame of reference for understanding the flow of Biblical and western history. It ignored Islamic history, Asian history and the history of the Americas but nobody seemed to be bothered with that hole in his logic at the time. Although his publication is over one hundred fifty years old, few have given serious consideration to its present obsolescence. Its' a pretty picture, though inaccurate. Why rub it out? Darby did mention the evacuation of those in Christ who were alive at the time of Jesus' return, but he didn't flesh out the idea very well. That was left for another group of people later in time.

In the beginning of the twentieth century at the Niagara Conferences the rapture came to be identified as a singular doctrine or at least as coherent as one could make given the fuzzy logic surrounding its interpretation. Delegates from every Christian denomination were invited to sift through the debate and discussions on fundamental principles of the faith. Summer heat put an end to extended debate and one by one the delegates abandoned the fruitless and endless arguments (they never did end, did they?). As a result all the major denominations except a large Baptist contingent abandoned the doctrine. By default, not by agreement, the doctrine was accepted.

A couple of years ago, during a conference of South African Christian churches, it was decided to abandon the doctrine of the rapture. Why? Church leaders determined that it was not efficacious to the body of Christ, it is not necessary for salvation nor to a proper understanding of the gospel, that it was devisive and that it had no legitimate place in eschatology.

In summation, the rapture is NOT a mainstream ideology. It is the product of confusion and church politics, not Biblical revelation. It is an American invention suitable for tabloid type Christian novels but not serious study. Jesus will indeed return and when He does a lot of things will change. Foremost among them will be the global rejection of the doctrine of the rapture.

but that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

[veteran]

The Pre-trib Secret Rapture theory is a British... invention. John Nelson Darby was from Britain, not the U.S. And the one he got the beginning idea from was Edward Irving, also in 1830's Britain.

Per Dave MacPherson's documentation in The Incredible Cover-Up, he quoted the Christian historian Sandeen remarking of how Darby's church in 1830's Britain had Illuminati members in it loosely quoting passages out of The Bible. In the later 1900's, Cyrus Scofield received funds from wealthy businessmen to put together his famour Pre-trib Rapture theory study Bible pushing the Pre-trib Rapture theory farther in the U.S. The British Oxford University Press sponsered Scofield's publication. Per Georgetown history professor Carrol Quigley in his book Tragedy and Hope, Oxford University in Britain is in connection with the Rhodes Scholarship Trust, and the Rhodes Trust is a front for British Socialists in favor of one-world government. (ex-President Bill Clinton was a Rhodes Scholar sent to study at Oxford University).

Scofield was a scoundrel before his conversion to Christ, and still guilty of underhandedness afterwards, conferring upon himself the title of Doctor of Divinity with no proof of any academic institution having granted such a title to him. With his royalites gained from the publishing of his Scofield Reference Study Bible, he joined with influential journalists, bankers, scholars, and politicians in New York, becoming a member of the famous Lotus Club. The Lotus Club is where Woodrow Wilson was first proposed for the Presidency; Wilson was a Socialist for one-world government. The Lotus Club received funds from the New York wealthy, like Andrew Carnigie (founder of the Carnigie Foundation). Later in the 1950's, the Carnigie Foundation would come under scrutiny by the Reece Committee hearings investigating the Communist subversion that several U.S. tax-exempt foundations had supported. The Carnigie Foundation, Ford Foundation, and Rockefeller Foundation were found guilty of supporting subversive activities against the people of the United States of America. Yet nothing was done about it.

It's difficult for many to believe there exists groups of men in this world behind the one-world government movement that are so forward-thinking with their strategy, that they would commission a scoundrel like C.I. Scofield to publish a KJV study Bible which pushed the Pre-trib Rapture theory upon an unsuspecting Christian public, with its ultimate aim to pacify The Church and direct her into the hands of Christ's enemies.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, veteran and rjp.

While Darby specifically propagated the pretribulational rapture theory, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater! There SHALL be a rapture. You should know this because the Scriptures are clear about this in both 1 Cor. 15 and 1 Thess. 4. However, this "Rapture" or Harpazo, if you prefer, have different characteristics than the pre-tribbers suggest. Nowhere in either passage does Paul say that we shall be taken to "Heaven" after we are "snatched away" (a definition of "harpazo"). Instead, all we are told is that we will meet the Lord (Yeshua` haMashiach) in the air and always be with Him from that time on.

I don't believe in a "bounce" theory at all, not pre-trib, post-trib, or pre-wrath (and certainly not partial). Why would Yeshua` come ALMOST to earth, gather His people, and go back to "Heaven" like He was on a bungee cord?! No, I believe that, when He comes, He comes for good. He will be establishing His Kingdom in Isra'el, and therefore, we go with Him! Instead of going up to "Heaven," we will be going ... ("Right turn, Clyde!") ... THROUGH the "heavens" (the "skies") to Isra'el, with the messengers ("angels") providing a "mass transit system" for all His people!

Shalom, veteran and rjp.

While Darby specifically propagated the pretribulational rapture theory, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater! There SHALL be a rapture. You should know this because the Scriptures are clear about this in both 1 Cor. 15 and 1 Thess. 4. However, this "Rapture" or Harpazo, if you prefer, has different characteristics than the pre-tribbers suggest. Nowhere in either passage does Paul say that we shall be taken to "Heaven" after we are "snatched away" (a definition of "harpazo"). Instead, all we are told is that we will meet the Lord (Yeshua` haMashiach) in the air and always be with Him from that time on.

I don't believe in a "bounce" theory at all, not pre-trib, post-trib, or pre-wrath (and certainly not partial). Why would Yeshua` come ALMOST to earth, gather His people, and go back to "Heaven" like He was on a bungee cord?! No, I believe that, when He comes, He comes for good. He will be establishing His Kingdom in Isra'el, and therefore, we go with Him! Instead of going up to "Heaven," we will be going ... ("Right turn, Clyde!") ... THROUGH the "heavens" (the "skies") to Isra'el, with the messengers ("angels") providing a "mass transit system" for all His people!

Sorry about that. The mess-up was supposed to be a grammar correction.

 

[veteran]

Shalom, veteran and rjp.

While Darby specifically propagated the pretribulational rapture theory, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater! There SHALL be a rapture. You should know this because the Scriptures are clear about this in both 1 Cor. 15 and 1 Thess. 4. However, this "Rapture" or Harpazo, if you prefer, have different characteristics than the pre-tribbers suggest. Nowhere in either passage does Paul say that we shall be taken to "Heaven" after we are "snatched away" (a definition of "harpazo"). Instead, all we are told is that we will meet the Lord (Yeshua` haMashiach) in the air and always be with Him from that time on.

I don't believe in a "bounce" theory at all, not pre-trib, post-trib, or pre-wrath (and certainly not partial). Why would Yeshua` come ALMOST to earth, gather His people, and go back to "Heaven" like He was on a bungee cord?! No, I believe that, when He comes, He comes for good. He will be establishing His Kingdom in Isra'el, and therefore, we go with Him! Instead of going up to "Heaven," we will be going ... ("Right turn, Clyde!") ... THROUGH the "heavens" (the "skies") to Isra'el, with the messengers ("angels") providing a "mass transit system" for all His people!



Sorry about that. The mess-up was supposed to be a grammar correction.

I'm well aware of the difference between the Pre-trib 'secret' Rapture theory and our gathering to Christ per the Greek word 'harpazo' ("caught up") according to God's Word.

Zechariah 14, Matthew 24, Mark 13, 1 Thessalonians 4, and 1 Corinthians 15 give us specific details about our gathering to Christ at His coming. Zech.14 reveals to 'where' we are gathered in final, on earth.

Because of certain Scriptures like John 14 about the "mansions", and like Rev.7:9 forward, Rev.14, etc., many have been misled to think Christ is coming to gather us to Heaven away from the earth. They are not aware that the heavenly is going to be revealed ON this earth with that event, involving the 'change' at a twinkling of an eye on the last trump that Apostle Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 15 pulling from Isaiah 25.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, veteran.

To your last post where you said, "Because of certain Scriptures like John 14 about the "mansions", and like Rev.7:9 forward, Rev.14, etc., many have been misled to think Christ is coming to gather us to Heaven away from the earth. They are not aware that the heavenly is going to be revealed ON this earth with that event, involving the 'change' at a twinkling of an eye on the last trump that Apostle Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 15 pulling from Isaiah 25," I say,

Right! In English, "Truth!" In Hebrew, "Amen!"

The Pre-trib Secret Rapture theory is a British... invention. John Nelson Darby was from Britain, not the U.S. And the one he got the beginning idea from was Edward Irving, also in 1830's Britain.

Per Dave MacPherson's documentation in The Incredible Cover-Up, he quoted the Christian historian Sandeen remarking of how Darby's church in 1830's Britain had Illuminati members in it loosely quoting passages out of The Bible. In the later 1900's, Cyrus Scofield received funds from wealthy businessmen to put together his famour Pre-trib Rapture theory study Bible pushing the Pre-trib Rapture theory farther in the U.S. The British Oxford University Press sponsered Scofield's publication. Per Georgetown history professor Carrol Quigley in his book Tragedy and Hope, Oxford University in Britain is in connection with the Rhodes Scholarship Trust, and the Rhodes Trust is a front for British Socialists in favor of one-world government. (ex-President Bill Clinton was a Rhodes Scholar sent to study at Oxford University).

Scofield was a scoundrel before his conversion to Christ, and still guilty of underhandedness afterwards, conferring upon himself the title of Doctor of Divinity with no proof of any academic institution having granted such a title to him. With his royalites gained from the publishing of his Scofield Reference Study Bible, he joined with influential journalists, bankers, scholars, and politicians in New York, becoming a member of the famous Lotus Club. The Lotus Club is where Woodrow Wilson was first proposed for the Presidency; Wilson was a Socialist for one-world government. The Lotus Club received funds from the New York wealthy, like Andrew Carnigie (founder of the Carnigie Foundation). Later in the 1950's, the Carnigie Foundation would come under scrutiny by the Reece Committee hearings investigating the Communist subversion that several U.S. tax-exempt foundations had supported. The Carnigie Foundation, Ford Foundation, and Rockefeller Foundation were found guilty of supporting subversive activities against the people of the United States of America. Yet nothing was done about it.

It's difficult for many to believe there exists groups of men in this world behind the one-world government movement that are so forward-thinking with their strategy, that they would commission a scoundrel like C.I. Scofield to publish a KJV study Bible which pushed the Pre-trib Rapture theory upon an unsuspecting Christian public, with its ultimate aim to pacify The Church and direct her into the hands of Christ's enemies.

(It's "Carnegie," by the way.)

I was not aware of C. I. Scofield's history or his falsified credentials. Thank you for the heads-up! Isn't it interesting that the concept of the "third heaven" being "God's abode" was greatly propagated by the Scofield Reference Bible? I still say Peter's description of the "third heaven" in 2 Peter 3:3-13 is better.

 

[tgwprophet]

As far as Jack Van Impe goes.... I had watchd him allot. I noticed some of his " teachings " did not align with my research - speciffically the time line calendar I drafted and the rapture. So, one day I ( actually a couple tmes if I remember right ) taped his program, then I did something unimaginable with the video tape... I replayed the words of this "walking bible" and stopped it whenever he gave a scripture reference and looked it up... guess what.??? The scripture reference of this walking bible was NOT correct. Now, understand I still watched him ,as much of the wolrd information i was interested in and if I found it necessary, I would then research th validity of it. Certainly, what I found was Jack Van Impe was another seeking $$$ more than God or trying to scare people into believeing None of which I consider valid formats for obtaining another believer.... oh yeah.......................................BOO!....Did that work?

 

[oliver]

veteran

The Pre-trib Secret Rapture theory is a British... invention. John Nelson Darby was from Britain, not the U.S. And the one he got the beginning idea from was Edward Irving, also in 1830's Britain.

Where is your evidence for that? He got his dispensational theology from his own study of the bible while he was recuperating from an accident in 1827, and afterwards, and developed the rapture doctrine in discussions over several years, including the Powerscourt conferences.

Irving himself never attended the Powerscourt conferences. A few Irvingites were present at least at the second
and third conferences, but their ideas were not warmly received.
...
In his "Reflections upon 'The Prophetic Inquiry" (1829), Darby took to task both the
extremists among the premillennial historicists and the postmillennial historicists. Edward
Irving received special criticism at this early date. It is difficult to see how Darby would have
been influenced by him after making such statements about his work as, "The observations
from the Apocalypse are a total misapprehension of its force."

from J. N. Darby's Early Years by Dr. Floyd Elmore

It appears that 50 years later, some opponents of the rapture doctrine associated Darby with Irving, giving the unwarranted impression that Darby was influenced by the Irvingite heresies.

 

[veteran]

veteran


Where is your evidence for that? He got his dispensational theology from his own study of the bible while he was recuperating from an accident in 1827, and afterwards, and developed the rapture doctrine in discussions over several years, including the Powerscourt conferences.


from J. N. Darby's Early Years by Dr. Floyd Elmore

It appears that 50 years later, some opponents of the rapture doctrine associated Darby with Irving, giving the unwarranted impression that Darby was influenced by the Irvingite heresies.

Darby's main contribution was the idea of a secret rapture, although he did not emphatically use the word 'secret', and devised that idea with Irving....

http://www.cc-vw.org...es/irving1.html