No authority!

[Paul Christensen]

And you still didn't quote the Council of Trent where it said that The Church teaches that "those who depend on Christ alone through faith for salvation are to be condemned to hell".

Soooooo now you want to tell me what The Church teaches about excommunication? Is that the rabbit hole we are going down now? OK....I will follow you. Do some research and Please quote from any Catholic doctrine or The Catechism that supports your belief that excommunication from The Church means the person is going to hell.

I did my research. Here is what I found which proves you to, once again, be wrong.

Excommunication means that they are cut off from receiving the sacraments. It does not mean that the Church is condemning a person to hell. It is meant to inspire people to repent and be reconciled to the Church. Once reconciled to the Church, that person may again receive the sacraments. If an excommunicated person dies without being formally reconciled to the Church, they can be saved if they truly and sincerely repent all of their mortal sins before death.

If you find something different please let me know.

Oh well, if you choose to believe that, then you are welcome to it.

 

[Paul Christensen]

I think this is another case of you saying something that isn't true (like when you said all priests have to be celibate, council of Trent says xyz, excommunication means damned to hell) and you, once again, can't back it up.

You are the one who made the affirmative statement that Constantine introduce paganism into The Church but you want ME to prove you right by googling it (I prefer Bing)??? Hmmmmm.....

I got my information about Constantine by reading Church History. Maybe the RCC historians edited out the paganism aspects of Constantine's influence on the Christian church. However, it seems that Pope Francis is welcoming pagan influence into the modern RCC by extending the right hand of fellowship to Muslims, Hindus, and Buddhists. I guess it's a matter of "birds of a feather flock together!"

 

[Marymog]

I got my information about Constantine by reading Church History. Maybe the RCC historians edited out the paganism aspects of Constantine's influence on the Christian church. However, it seems that Pope Francis is welcoming pagan influence into the modern RCC by extending the right hand of fellowship to Muslims, Hindus, and Buddhists. I guess it's a matter of "birds of a feather flock together!"

Perfect. Which book did you read or website did you go to so you could learn about Church history? I would like to read what you read!

Whats up with all the digs at The Church and the pope? Can't we just have a conversation about the topic at hand?

 

[Marymog]

Oh well, if you choose to believe that, then you are welcome to it.

And once again you didn't (couldn't) back up what you said because what you said is false. Will you ever apologize?

 

[Paul Christensen]

And every believer (not just a member of a sect) is part of the church.

The church has to preserve , protect and pass on the Word of God- not interpret it.

Of course modern RCs might want to forget that the "true" church burned alive those who worked to get the Scriptures into the language of the common people in Germany and England. The "true" Church didn't want ordinary people reading the Bible in their own languages because its false doctrines and traditions would be exposed for what they were due to the people comparing RC nonsense with the truth of what is written in the Scriptures. Ordinary people reading the Scriptures in their own languages, without having to learn Latin would have exposed the RCC as a total fraud, and it went to great lengths to make sure that translation into the common language of the people didn't happen. Of course, the RCC didn't reckon on the power of the Holy Spirit Who ensured that the Scriptures did get to the common people, because, as the Scripture says of genuine believers, "No weapon formed against you shall prosper".

 

[Marymog]

It consists of all those who have placed their faith in Jesus Christ for salvation.

Others have mentioned how the Catholic Church fell into disrepute so I don't feel the need to go into that here.



Yes, the Holy Spirit revealed that to me.

Tracking down those people would be a hit and miss venture.

There is the invisible church; which consists of all those who have placed their faith in Jesus; and there is the visible church, which is the local congregation led by a pastor.

Matthew 18:17 would be something that is done within the visible church; but the invisible church is also involved.

In context, Jesus says that where two or three of you agree as touching anything that they shall ask for, it shall be done for them. This is in reference to people who believe in Jesus and who are His disciples.

So, if two or three agree on an excommunication, but only one of them is a real believer, that person would not really be excommunicated.

It would take two or three members of the real church to make such a thing stand before the Lord. And, again, the real church consists of those who have placed their faith in Jesus and what He did for them on the Cross; who also have a living faith that produces works (see 1 John 3:22).

Fascinating.....

 

[Paul Christensen]

Perfect. Which book did you read or website did you go to so you could learn about Church history? I would like to read what you read!

Whats up with all the digs at The Church and the pope? Can't we just have a conversation about the topic at hand?

I did two comprehensive M.Div papers in Church History covering the Early Church right through to the present day. That required me to read a number of different historical texts. I also did a comprehensive paper on RC theology which clearly showed which parts were consistent with Scriptures and which were "extra-Biblical".

My comments are not just to prove anything to you. My purpose is to make readers fully aware that the RCC is a total fraud and that they should search the Scriptures to ensure that they are not deceived into giving allegiance to something that will cause them to receive a rude shock at the Judgment.

 

[justbyfaith]

matt 16:18 gate of hell shall NOT prevail

...against the true church; which consists of those who place their faith in Jesus and what He did for them on the Cross for salvation.

It is not an organization that consists of people who have departed from true and living faith in Jesus Christ in a hierarchy of leadership that is devoid of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Paul Christensen]

And once again you didn't (couldn't) back up what you said because what you said is false. Will you ever apologize?

Who do you think you are that I should apologise to you? If anyone can prove me false from the Scriptures themselves, then I will stand corrected. But I am not convinced by quotes from Matthew implying that the true Church Jesus was talking about is the RCC. A church riddled with paganism, adultery, fornication, murders, and homosexuality as integral parts of its history is nothing like the true church of the Scriptures. Claiming Apostolic succession is a joke, totally disproved by its own history with popes excommunicating each other, two popes in competition, popes being murdered, total usurpers claiming the papal throne, popes being elected by homosexual, adulterous cardinals, and now a pope welcoming pagan religions to the right hand of fellowship with him.

I don't have to apologise to the readers for saying that, because it is all in the history of the Church for everyone to see.

 

[theefaith]

I guess he missed the verse, "I [Jesus] am the Way the Truth and the Life, and no one comes to the Father except by Me".

...against the true church; which consists of those who place their faith in Jesus and what He did for them on the Cross for salvation.

It is not an organization that consists of people who have departed from true and living faith in Jesus Christ in a hierarchy of leadership that is devoid of the Holy Spirit.

That’s correct finally

 

[Marymog]

I did two comprehensive M.Div papers in Church History covering the Early Church right through to the present day. That required me to read a number of different historical texts. I also did a comprehensive paper on RC theology which clearly showed which parts were consistent with Scriptures and which were "extra-Biblical".

My comments are not just to prove anything to you. My purpose is to make readers fully aware that the RCC is a total fraud and that they should search the Scriptures to ensure that they are not deceived into giving allegiance to something that will cause them to receive a rude shock at the Judgment.

Ok....hold on Paul. You are telling me that you did a comprehensive M.Div papers in Church History covering the Early Church. That means your accusation that Constantine brought paganism into the church should be at the tip of your tongue and you should be able to spout off at least 5 examples of it....But you once again dodged me. How sad....

 

[Marymog]

Who do you think you are that I should apologise to you? If anyone can prove me false from the Scriptures themselves, then I will stand corrected. But I am not convinced by quotes from Matthew implying that the true Church Jesus was talking about is the RCC. A church riddled with paganism, adultery, fornication, murders, and homosexuality as integral parts of its history is nothing like the true church of the Scriptures. Claiming Apostolic succession is a joke, totally disproved by its own history with popes excommunicating each other, two popes in competition, popes being murdered, total usurpers claiming the papal throne, popes being elected by homosexual, adulterous cardinals, and now a pope welcoming pagan religions to the right hand of fellowship with him.

I don't have to apologise to the readers for saying that, because it is all in the history of the Church for everyone to see.

Usually when someone says something that is false they apologize for it....unless they have to much pride.

 

[Paul Christensen]

Usually when someone says something that is false they apologize for it....unless they have to much pride.

I think that you are so convinced that the RCC is the true church, succeeded from Peter and the Apostles, that you are totally blind to any alternative, and that you will fiercely defend your position with the Church until the cows come home, no matter what I or anyone else on the thread will say otherwise.

As a genuine believer, you should have alarm bells in your head when you read of Pope Francis welcoming Muslims (who murder Christians at the drop of a hat), Hindus and Buddhists into fellowship with the Church. You should know that God has no fellowship with the darkness of paganism. You should be alarmed that Pope Francis, as the supreme head of the Church, the representative of Christ in the world, is ignoring that Jesus Christ is the only way to the Father, and that Muslims, Hindus and Buddhists are on the road to hell. He is ignoring that those who love the world are no friends of God. It should be obvious to you that Pope Francis, in embracing the world's pagan religions into fellowship with the Church is no friend of God.

 

[Marymog]

I think that you are so convinced that the RCC is the true church, succeeded from Peter and the Apostles, that you are totally blind to any alternative, and that you will fiercely defend your position with the Church until the cows come home, no matter what I or anyone else on the thread will say otherwise.

As a genuine believer, you should have alarm bells in your head when you read of Pope Francis welcoming Muslims (who murder Christians at the drop of a hat), Hindus and Buddhists into fellowship with the Church. You should know that God has no fellowship with the darkness of paganism. You should be alarmed that Pope Francis, as the supreme head of the Church, the representative of Christ in the world, is ignoring that Jesus Christ is the only way to the Father, and that Muslims, Hindus and Buddhists are on the road to hell. He is ignoring that those who love the world are no friends of God. It should be obvious to you that Pope Francis, in embracing the world's pagan religions into fellowship with the Church is no friend of God.

I am not sure why you are trying to deflect from the matter at hand. I get it....you think that The Church is a fraud, fake, false doctrine, orgies, prostitutes etc etc. That is very clear.

What is not clear to me is why you keep giving your opinion about celibate priests, Council of Trent, salvation etc. but don't back up your opinion with facts. That's the part that makes me sad for you!

 

[theefaith]

I am not sure why you are trying to deflect from the matter at hand. I get it....you think that The Church is a fraud, fake, false doctrine, orgies, prostitutes etc etc. That is very clear.

What is not clear to me is why you keep giving your opinion about celibate priests, Council of Trent, salvation etc. but don't back up your opinion with facts. That's the part that makes me sad for you!

there is no alternative
There’s only one church founded by Christ on Peter and the apostles and their successors
Matt 16:18 Jn 10:16 eph 2:20

 

[Paul Christensen]

I am not sure why you are trying to deflect from the matter at hand. I get it....you think that The Church is a fraud, fake, false doctrine, orgies, prostitutes etc etc. That is very clear.

What is not clear to me is why you keep giving your opinion about celibate priests, Council of Trent, salvation etc. but don't back up your opinion with facts. That's the part that makes me sad for you!

You ought to be sad for the general corruption and unholy conduct of those in the highest positions in the Vatican. The information about this has not come from outsiders. It has come from Vatican officials and priests themselves. It shows that there are those within the Vatican who are not part of the corruption, and are extremely concerned about it. So much so, that they invited a group of researchers in, which resulted in a two-hour video going through the reasons why Pope Benedict resigned. It is the Vatican insiders themselves who have given information about illegitimate children, fornication between priests and nuns, homosexual orgies, and financial mismanagement and receiving funds from the Mafia.

Dave Hunt wrote his book A Woman Rides The Beast in which he did a comprehensive review of the RCC, based not on his own thoughts or the opinions of Protestants, but through what RCs themselves said and wrote.

Unfortunately, your faith in your Church is being undermined by the very people you are acknowledging as leaders, who are bringing your Church into disrepute through their unholy conduct.

 

[Brakelite]

You ought to be sad for the general corruption and unholy conduct of those in the highest positions in the Vatican. The information about this has not come from outsiders. It has come from Vatican officials and priests themselves. It shows that there are those within the Vatican who are not part of the corruption, and are extremely concerned about it. So much so, that they invited a group of researchers in, which resulted in a two-hour video going through the reasons why Pope Benedict resigned. It is the Vatican insiders themselves who have given information about illegitimate children, fornication between priests and nuns, homosexual orgies, and financial mismanagement and receiving funds from the Mafia.

Dave Hunt wrote his book A Woman Rides The Beast in which he did a comprehensive review of the RCC, based not on his own thoughts or the opinions of Protestants, but through what RCs themselves said and wrote.

Unfortunately, your faith in your Church is being undermined by the very people you are acknowledging as leaders, who are bringing your Church into disrepute through their unholy conduct.

And all the above is not new. Better Communications helps us to be more aware, but none of the above is much different than what Luther witnessed and railed against, and received the same treatment from the leadership as Mary and others are dishing out now. Denial, denial, denial.

 

[Paul Christensen]

And all the above is not new. Better Communications helps us to be more aware, but none of the above is much different than what Luther witnessed and railed against, and received the same treatment from the leadership as Mary and others are dishing out now. Denial, denial, denial.

I think that most Protestant churches are pretty realistic about their failings and shortcoming. Church leaderships do not deny that corruption can happen, and they do what they can to deal with it. It seems that it is those religious organisations that see themselves as the "true" church that exhibit denial. Dealing with Mormons and JWs has the same result. They are blind to the false doctrines that make their churches "pseudo-christian" separate from the mainstream. The RCC is more dangerous because it is a closer counterfeit than the cults. But the reality is that it is a cult in itself, deceiving millions of people through its history. I think that the deception is so in-grained, that RCs just cannot see themselves as deceived. It seems that the necessary insight into themselves is missing. That is the reason why no amount of evidence and Scripture-based argument meets a brick wall.

I was constantly reported in Christianforums.com and finally banned from the forum because of my attempts to show the readers the fraudulent nature of the RCC. I am now convinced that influential staff members on that forum are totally supportive of the RCC, Islam, and Evolution, and anyone who goes against any of those will be reported and shut down by the moderators. This shows that even what was a good Bible-based forum can be infiltrated and corrupted.

 

[Brakelite]

The RCC is more dangerous because it is a closer counterfeit than the cults.

I think the counterfeit nature of the Papacy is the money factor which absolutely identifies the RCC as Antichrist. Here's a copy of a study I put together several years ago and posted here under another name.


Before we look at the antichrist, I want to look at the real Christ. Who is He? Let us go to the scriptures to find out what and Who He claimed to be.

Mathew 12:6 But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple...

The temple, the priesthood, and the religious system including all the ceremonies, the sacrifices, and the law of the Jewish nation go hand in hand. It was the mainstay and focal point of the life of Israel. Yet Jesus claimed to be greater. Greater even than the very High priest who no doubt would take great interest in hearing a report of these words. Greater even than the law itself, because He was the lawgiver.

….38 ¶ Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee.
39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here…

Jonah was the most powerful and successful of all OT prophets. In all 40 odd chapters of Jeremiah, there is no record of anyone at anytime taking the slightest bit of notice of anything Jeremiah said. Yet Jonah, on the strength of just one or two sermons, converted the entire city of Nineveh of the children of Ishmael totaling maybe 60,000 people. By any standards, that has got to be recorded as a very successful evangelistic campaign. Yet Jesus claimed to be greater than Jonah.

…42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.

Solomon was the wisest and wealthiest and most successful of any ruler of the ancient world. Yet Jesus claimed to be greater even than Solomon.

He claimed to be a greater priest than the current high priest of Israel, He claimed to be a greater prophet than Jonah, and He claimed to be a greater King than Solomon. In these three startling claims, we have before us the threefold ministry of Jesus. Priest, prophet, and King.

It has been said, and I think wisely, that the Bible must be understood grammatically before it can be understood theologically. Anti– as in antichrist, according to Strong’s concordance, and like other words having the prefix ‘anti’, means at it’s most basic form “in the room of”, “instead of”, or “in the place of”.
In other words, ‘antichrist’ stands as a substitute. We all know that Satan works by deception. Yet many claim the ‘antichrist’ will be one who will charge in on a black horse guns blazing with fury and hatred directed at all things Christian and opposing with great force the church. Pray tell me, how will the world be deceived by such a tactic as this?
In 2 Thess. 2:1 we are told that there was to be a falling away first, which will reveal the antichrist, or as Paul describes him, the man of sin or son of perdition. Now falling away in this instance is a falling into apostasy; divorce.
Any divorce necessitates a prior favourable relationship. The only other example of a ‘son of perdition’ is Judas Iscariot. Did Judas openly and with force oppose Christ? Did he attack His teachings and disagree with Jesus claims to divinity? Did he argue and debate everything Jesus stood for and seek the destruction of His followers? No. Not by any means. Judas betrayed Jesus with a kiss. He betrayed Him with an act of apparent love, fellowship, and friendship. He undermined and betayed Jesus at the same time as claiming Him to be his friend!! This squares perfectly with the meaning of antichrist. He is not an opposer, but a subtle impostor. A counterfeit. An impostor of Jesus Christ. A false copy, or forgery of the true.
Antichrist is therefore a person or power who impersonates the offices of Priesthood, the Prophet or spokesmanship, and the Kingly rule of Christ. The office that ministers for God, speaks for God, and rules for God.

The falling away that Paul spoke indeed did take place just as he said. Jesus’ letter to the church of Ephesus (Revelation 2) reveals the beginning of this process. During the ensuing centuries, political instability within the Roman Empire resulted in Germanic barbarian tribes taking over the former territories of the western portion of the empire. Constantine moved the capital to the east, and Rome was left without a leader. This void was filled by the bishops of Rome, many of whom were more politically minded than religious. Power corrupted them, and by the 6th century the apostasy was well under way, the formation of a church/state union which was the vehicle for the introduction of many pagan superstitions and practices entering the church.

Satan has many counterfeits. Now counterfeits are almost identical to the true. You do not get counterfeit 99$ notes. You get counterfeit 100$ notes. And unless you get trained and disciplined to know intimately the true 100$ note, you will not recognise the false. It has been estimated that every person in America who has regularly handled 100$ notes, has had pass through their hands a counterfeit at least 4 times a year! And not known it!!!! Unless you are intimately acquainted with the true Jesus, how will you recognise the counterfeit?

 

[Brakelite]

Continued.....

In Revelation 14:6-12 God has the final message of warning that His people must deliver before He comes. It is shown as being preached by 3 angels. This is figurative, for it is the responsibility of the church to preach the gospel. It however can be understood that angels are directing and overseeing the preaching. Satan however has a counterfeit message. We see this in Revelation 16:13,14. “And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.”

This is a threefold message of demons opposing and deceiving the world at the time of the end.

The following is not intended as evidence for the concept of a ‘Christian trinity’, however, the following does make for very interesting comparisons.

Dragon/Satan.

1. His place in heaven (Rev 12:3,7,8.)
2. He has a throne. (Rev 13:2, 2:13)
3. Gives throne, power, and authority to sea-beast. (13:2,4.)
4. He is worshipped. (13:4a)
5. Destroyed forever. (20:9,10)

Now compare:
God the Father

1. Dwelling in heaven (Rev 4,5)
2. He has a throne. (4:5; 7:9-15; 19:4)
3. Gives throne, power and authority to Jesus. (Math 28:18 Rev 2:27; 3:21; chapters 4,5.)
4. Is worshipped. (Rev 4:10; 15:4)
5. Lives and reign forever. (4:9; 5:13; 11:15)

The Land-beast or false prophet.

1. Called the false prophet because he decieves people with regards to religious matters. (16:13; 19:20; 20:10)
2. Lamb-like. (13:11)
3. Exercises all authority of sea-beast. (13:12a)
4. Directs worship to sea-beast. (13:12b,15)
5. Performs signs. (13:13; 19:20)
6. Brings fire down from heaven (13:13)
7. Gives breath/life to beasts image (13:15)
8. Applies mark of beast. (13:16)

Now compare:
The Holy Spirit

1. Called the Spirit of truth guiding people. (Jn 16:13 Rev 22:17)
2. Christ-like. (Jn 1426; 16:14)
3. Exercises authority of Christ (Jn 16:13,14)
4. Directs peoples attention to Christ (Acts 5:29-32)
5. Grants gifts..gift of miracles eg.(1 Cor. 12:8-11)
6. Fire from heaven at Pentecost (Acts 2)
7. Instills life to us, the image of Christ, ‘Christ in us the hope of glory’… (Romans8:8-11,29)
8. Applies seal of God. (2 Cor 1:22 Eph 1:13 4:30 Rev 7:3,4.)

The sea-beast or antichrist.

1. Comes from water to begin activity. (13:1)
2. Resembles dragon. (12:13 13:1)
3. Ten diadems. (13:1)
4. Ten horns (13:1)
5. Receives power throne and authority from dragon/Satan. (13:2,4)
6. 42 months of activity in first phase. (13:5)
7. Was slain (13:3)
8. Resurrected (13:3)
9. Receives worship after healing (13:3,4,8)

Now compare:
Jesus Christ

1. Comes from water to begin ministry (Luke 3:21-23)
2. Resembles Father (Jn 14:19)
3. Many diadems (Rev 19:12)
4. Lamb has 7 horns (5:6)
5. Receives power throne and authority from His Father (Math 28:18 Rev 2:27 Chapters 4,5)
6. 42 months of ministry in initial phase. (Gospel of John)
7. Was slain (Rev 5:6)
8. Was resurrected (Rev1:18)
9. Received worship after resurrection (Math 28:17)

Note how very similar the prophetic characteristics of antichrist are to Jesus.

So do the above attributes of the sea beast match any entity or individual in the world today? How does the above sea-beast or antichrist counterfeit the threefold ministry of the true Christ, as Priest, Prophet and King? Is there an entity in the world today who claims to do just this? Is there one like Judas who is betraying the Master with a kiss, all the while claiming to be a friend? Is there in the world today a religious system or religious ruler who claims to be the earthly representative of Christ as His priest, claiming to be a mediator between God and man? Claiming to forgive sin even, which is the sole prerogative of God, and Biblically and in particular applying to Jesus?
Does this entity also claim the prerogatives of a prophet? Does it claim to speak for God in spiritual matters? Does it claim to stand as God’s spokesman on earth and claim that only through it’s authority can salvation be found, and that when speaking officially is considered on a par with scripture, that is infallible?
And finally, does this entity also claim to be a king? Does it claim authority as a secular power? Does it exercise authority and power within the auspices of a church/state relationship?

The answer my friends to all the above questions is a firm yes.There is an entity in the world today who claims all the above Godly prerogatives which belong only to Jesus Christ. Priest, prophet and king.This entity has set itself up as counterfeit and thus can be affirmatively identified as the Antichrist, the impostor and impersonator of the true. And this entity can be found only in the Roman Catholic church system.
Every one of those nine specific attributes of the sea beast listed above, can be matched to the Catholic Church system. Anyone wanting more info, be glad to oblige.