No authority!

[Ronald Nolette]

no I’m just one of the faithful what you would call a believer

Believer is a verb! It requires action which means work! Either you are a servant (workman) or you are living in disobedience.

 

[theefaith]

Who says? The bible doesn't demand it! Only a RCC dogma demands it.

That is the only priest hood mentioned in the NT. There is not even a whisper of lower priests under Jesus in the Melchizedekian order.

what? The royal priesthood is the only one in the NT

Heb 7

what makes Jesus high priest
Or the high priest of Israel for that matter
Only they are over an order of low priests of the same order!

 

[Ferris Bueller]

In other words, you have failed again tto refute these verses.

That's what I figured . . .

All of this is in Hebrews chapters 5-10 for anyone to read. No earthly priesthood needed anymore to do what Christ did perfectly and forever all by himself through his Priesthood and Sacrifice.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

what? The royal priesthood is the only one in the NT

Heb 7

what makes Jesus high priest
Or the high priest of Israel for that matter
Only they are over an order of low priests of the same order!

Earthlings are not in the lineage of Melchizedek, without beginning and without end. We serve a lower priestly function but we in no way do what Christ did. No priests are necessary now that he did the work of reconciliation all by himself. We just point people towards it, serving in our various gifts and offices.

God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 2 Corinthians 5:19
​

Christ does the reconciling. We carry the message of that reconciliation.

​

 

[theefaith]

All of this is in Hebrews chapters 5-10 for anyone to read. No earthly priesthood needed anymore to do what Christ did perfectly and forever all by himself through his Priesthood and Sacrifice.

his priesthood and sacrifice eliminates our free will?
Nothing to do? All are saved???

 

[theefaith]

Earthlings are not in the lineage of Melchizedek, without beginning and without end. We serve a lower priestly function but we in no way do what Christ did. No priests are necessary now that he did the work of reconciliation all by himself. We just point people towards it, serving in our various gifts and offices.

God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 2 Corinthians 5:19
​

Christ does the reconciling. We carry the message of that reconciliation.

​

really????

please explain: why do I keep asking cos you have never explained any specific verse I have asked about, anyway here it is:

2 Corinthians 5:18
And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

it says Paul (and the apostles) have the ministry of reconciliation not the ministry of preaching reconciliation!

go for it!

 

[BreadOfLife]

Romans 15:16
King James Version

16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.

Minister is servant and He is not even implying the role of the RCC priests. and I am not anti-Catholic, I am anti-Catholicism.

2 Corinthians 5:18
King James Version

18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

This is not RCC confession. This is one getting saved and being reconciled by trust in the gospel. But as you believe you can lose your salvation.....

2 Corinthians 2:10
King James Version

10 To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ;

Once again this is not the RCC hypotheses that priests actually have the authority to forgive sins judicially. Ministers of the gospel (pastors) have the authority to hold someone experientially accountable for their sin, but Jesus already forgave their sin at teh cross, and when they place dtheior trust in Him, applied that forgiveness to each and every single one of their sins.

James 5:14-15
King James Version

14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:

15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

Well RCC calls this extreme unction or last rites, but in believing churches we call it a prayer over the sick anointing them with oil. I have seen healings take place this way, even to me twice!

So sorry, we do need pastors for the maturing of the saints but not to perform rituals that have even lost their meaning for many of the priests! That is why vocations are so down.

You don't actuallr READ the posts - do you?
I already adreedd these verses - and in the original GREEK.

Hre they are again . . .
Paul makes the following statement in defense of his priestly function:
Rom 15:14-16
I myself am satisfied about you, my brothers, that you yourselves are full of goodness, filled with all knowledge and able to instruct one another. But on some points I have written to you very boldly by way of reminder, because of the grace given me by God to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles in the PRIESTLY SERVICE of the gospel of God, so that the offering of the Gentiles may be acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.

Here, the verb form of the SAME Greek word for "Priest" (heirus) that we find everywhere else in the NT is used.
Your KJV renders this word as "ministering" because the translators of the KJV had an anti-Catholic/anti-Priest agenda - even though the Greek word is clear.

As for the other verses . . .
2 Cor. 5:18-20:
“And all this is from God, who has reconciled us to himself through Christ and given US the ministry of reconciliation, namely, God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting their trespasses against them and entrusting to US the message of reconciliation. So WE are ambassadors for Christ, as if God were appealing through US. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.”

In 2 Cor. 2:10, he states, “Whomever you forgive anything, so do I. For indeed what I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, has been for you in the presence (person) of Christ”

Paul's point here is about Forgiveness through the Ministry of Reconciliation which was entrusted to the clergy ("US", "WE").
He diffderentiates between the clergy and the laity ("US", "WE", "YOU").

Finally - James says to call for the ELDERS/PRESBYTERS - and NOT the laity, to pray over the sick for their healing AND the forgiveness of their sins.

James 5:14-15
Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord.
And the prayer of faith will save the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven.

ALL of these verses describe PRIESTLY functions.

 

[BreadOfLife]

All of this is in Hebrews chapters 5-10 for anyone to read. No earthly priesthood needed anymore to do what Christ did perfectly and forever all by himself through his Priesthood and Sacrifice.

And yet, you couldn't refute a SINGLE verse I presented.
Good job . . .

 

[Ferris Bueller]

And yet, you couldn't refute a SINGLE verse I presented.
Good job . . .

2 Corinthians 5:19

logos
Strong's Greek: 3056. λόγος (logos) -- 331 Occurrences

There are those who have been committed to share the 'word' of reconciliation, not do the actual reconciling themselves. God did that himself through Christ when he reconciled the world "to himself". We are only messengers of that reconciliation. Nobody needs a Catholic priest to be a messenger of the 'word' of reconciliation—the reconciliation that God himself did, not us. 2 Corinthians 5:19.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

And yet, you couldn't refute a SINGLE verse I presented.
Good job . . .

No authority!

 

[Ferris Bueller]

his priesthood and sacrifice eliminates our free will?
Nothing to do? All are saved???

Why are you going off into this silly tangent? Why are you bringing free will into this?

Justification occurs when we believe, apart from works, just like how it happened for Abraham. That is what Paul teaches in plain words (Romans 4:6) and which you have never addressed. Abraham did NOTHING in Genesis 15:6 except believe what God promised him. That is for us, too, whom God also will justify apart from our works (Romans 4:23-24).

If you are sure this is not how a person is justified read this......

he beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner!’ I tell you, this man, rather than the Pharisee, went home justified. Luke 18:13-14​

 

[theefaith]

Why are going off into this silly tangent? Why are bringing free will into this?

Justification occurs when we believe, apart from works, just like how it happened for Abraham. That is what Paul teaches in plain words (Romans 4:6) and which you have never addressed. Abraham did NOTHING in Genesis 15:6 except believe what God promised him. That is for us, too, whom God also will justify apart from our works (Romans 4:23-24).

If you are sure this is not how a person is justified read this......

he beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner!’ I tell you, this man, rather than the Pharisee, went home justified. Luke 18:13-14​

justification is by works, you must choose (volition) to believe. That’s works!

was the publican saved by humility and prayer?

 

[Ferris Bueller]

justification is by works, you must choose (volition) to believe. That’s works!

Not according to Paul. He makes a clear distinction between believing and works.

"to the one who does not work but trusts" Romans 4:5​

See it? "Who does not work BUT TRUSTS"—work vs. trust. But you are saying work and trust are the same thing. You're saying trusting is the very work Paul is contrasting with trusting.

was the publican saved by humility and prayer?

Let's be careful about mixing terms. The publican was justified through his faith in God's forgiveness. No work necessary to receive that justification. It was secured entirely through his faith in God's forgiveness.

 

[BreadOfLife]

2 Corinthians 5:19

logos
Strong's Greek: 3056. λόγος (logos) -- 331 Occurrences

There are those who have been committed to share the 'word' of reconciliation, not do the actual reconciling themselves. God did that himself through Christ when he reconciled the world "to himself". We are only messengers of that reconciliation. Nobody needs a Catholic priest to be a messenger of the 'word' of reconciliation—the reconciliation that God himself did, not us. 2 Corinthians 5:19.

WRONG again.
The "US" and the "WE" that Paul mentioned in these verses is NOT the laity - biut the clergy.
The laity is "YOU".

2 Cor. 5:18-20:
“And all this is from God, who has reconciled us to himself through Christ and given US the ministry of reconciliation, namely, God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting their trespasses against them and entrusting to US the message of reconciliation. So WE are ambassadors for Christ, as if God were appealing through US.
WE implore YOU on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.”

Notice that he states explicitly that, "'WE' are ambassadors for Christ, as if God were appealing through 'US'".

YOU are improperly dissecting verse 19.
And, as I showed you before - as Paul states just 3 chapters earlier on the subject -
2 Cor. 2:10
“Whomever you forgive anything, so do I. For indeed what I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, has been for you in the presence (person) of Christ”

The Greek word used here for “Presence” is “Prosopone”, which means “PERSON”. Paul was forgiving sins in the “Person of Christ”.
This is referred to in Latin as “In Persona Cristi”, which is the role of the priest.

Ahen you respond - don't just DENY as you've been doing.
Try to actually REFUTE this position . . .

 

[theefaith]

Not according to Paul. He makes a clear distinction between believing and works.

"to the one who does not work but trusts" Romans 4:5​

See it? "Who does not work BUT TRUSTS"—work vs. trust. But you are saying work and trust are the same thing. You're saying trusting is the very work Paul is contrasting with trusting.


Let's be careful about mixing terms. The publican was justified through his faith in God's forgiveness. No work necessary to receive that justification. It was secured entirely through his faith in God's forgiveness.

then we’re all saved! Yahoo

 

[Ferris Bueller]

The "US" and the "WE" that Paul mentioned in these verses is NOT the laity - biut the clergy.
The laity is "YOU".

2 Cor. 5:18-20:
“And all this is from God, who has reconciled us to himself through Christ and given US the ministry of reconciliation, namely, God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting their trespasses against them and entrusting to US the message of reconciliation. So WE are ambassadors for Christ, as if God were appealing through US.
WE implore YOU on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.”

I'm not making an argument that Paul is not referring to himself and his group. The argument is many people have his office. And many people operate in that gift. The point is, he is not talking about a special order of Catholic priesthood that a person must go through to get to God. There's no such thing anymore. God laid that inferior and corrupt way aside when he replaced it with Jesus' Priesthood and Sacrifice.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

then we’re all saved! Yahoo

Lol, no. Most people reject faith in God.

But not all of them welcomed the good news. Romans 10:16​

 

[Ferris Bueller]

2 Cor. 2:10
“Whomever you forgive anything, so do I. For indeed what I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, has been for you in the presence (person) of Christ”

The Greek word used here for “Presence” is “Prosopone”, which means “PERSON”. Paul was forgiving sins in the “Person of Christ”.
This is referred to in Latin as “In Persona Cristi”, which is the role of the priest.

Ahen you respond - don't just DENY as you've been doing.
Try to actually REFUTE this position . . .

Christ is present whenever two or more people gather in his name, especially in the context of forgiveness. Jesus told us about how this works. Remember, he's saying this in the context of forgiveness....

Again, I tell you truly that if two of you on the earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by My Father in heaven. For where two or three gather together in My name, there am I with them.” Matthew 18:19-20
​

Now compare that to 2 Corinthians 2:10.....

If you forgive anyone, I also forgive him. And if I have forgiven anything, I have forgiven it in the presence of Christ for your sake...
​

2 Corinthians 2:10 is not teaching us about some kind of special order of Catholic priests that take on the persona of Christ. It's an example of Matthew 18:19-20 and how Christ shows up to establish a matter in heaven whenever two or more come into agreement and establish it on earth, especially in the matter of forgiveness. Any two believers can do this. Don't twist it to make it so God has this special order of human priests that do what only they can do on earth. Jesus sets us straight about that.

 

[theefaith]

Lol, no. Most people reject faith in God.

But not all of them welcomed the good news. Romans 10:16​

How is it that the apostles are the light of the world if not priests of Jesus Christ?

Jn 8:12
Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

Jn 9:5
As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.

Matt 5:14
Ye (the apostles/ the church) are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
(There is only one church founded by Christ on Peter and the apostles and their successors!) Jn 10:16

 

[BreadOfLife]

I'm not making an argument that Paul is not referring to himself and his group. The argument is many people have his office. And many people operate in that gift. The point is, he is not talking about a special order of Catholic priesthood that a person must go through to get to God. There's no such thing anymore. God laid that inferior and corrupt way aside when he replaced it with Jesus' Priesthood and Sacrifice.

I completely agree with your statement in RED.
However, what you refuse to see is that these "many people" are the clergy.

As for your second statement, it has been proven wrong - repeatedly.
I have proven the clergy/laity distinction several times from Scripture and other than simple and repeated denials, you have failed to refute these verses.

Denial doesn't make the truth "go away" . . .