No More Death

[Earburner]

Stop going off the rails...........not once have i questioned your Salvation in Christ.

That is not a qualification nor is it true of Christ and Christ is immortal so he cannot be killed. John cannot be killed because he has no body until the resurrection, and it will be immortal. You prefer your own personal interpretation even though it contradicts scripture.

Stop deflecting, and please stay the topic of my two questions in post 574. Thanks

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You are trying to get out of what your beliefs imply. As I said, observing the feast of tabernacles in a literal way, which is what you think that is talking about, requires animal sacrifices. Do you deny that? If so, I will show you that.

@David in NJ What did you find to be funny about what I said here? Are you somehow not aware that celebrating the feast of tabernacles involved performing animal sacrifices? It's no wonder that you would try to laugh this off when your belief leads to the necessity for animal sacrifices being reinstated. But, that is no laughing matter. That would be a huge insult to Christ's once for all sacrifice.

What is your understanding of Ezekiel 40-48?

 

[Earburner]

@David in NJ What did you find to be funny about what I said here? Are you somehow not aware that celebrating the feast of tabernacles involved performing animal sacrifices? It's no wonder that you would try to laugh this off when your belief leads to the necessity for animal sacrifices being reinstated. But, that is no laughing matter. That would be a huge insult to Christ's once for all sacrifice.

First, who are the two witnesses?

From God's perspective, the Feast of Tabernacles is about "earthen vessels" and Himself, as to where He wants to dwell PERMANENTLY.
But that's a topic for another thread.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

First, who are the two witnesses?

What does that have to do with Zechariah 14:16-21? Nothing as far as I can tell.

From God's perspective, the Feast of Tabernacles is about "earthen vessels" and Himself, as to where He wants to dwell PERMANENTLY.
But that's a topic for another thread.

Okay...

 

[Earburner]

What does that have to do with Zechariah 14:16-21? Nothing as far as I can tell.

I don't recall mentioning Zech. 14:16-21, unless I had a typo.
However I did reference Zech. 4[14] Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by [for] the LORD of the whole earth.

"David in NJ" appears to be stumped.
Do you have the answers to my two questions in my post #574?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I don't recall mentioning Zech. 14:16-21, unless I had a typo.

That passage is what I was discussing with David in NJ when you chimed in asking who are the two witnesses. Was that by mistake then? I responded to you about the two witnesses in a different post, but that was not the post that you replied to. I think you must have meant to reply to that other post, which was post #575. I explained my understanding of the two witnesses in that post.

 

[ewq1938]

Stop deflecting, and please stay the topic of my two questions in post 574. Thanks

I don't deflect nor was I off topic. You are avoiding the evidence that proves you wrong.

 

[Earburner]

Why does it have to be individuals? The two witnesses are symbolically represented as two candlesticks and two olive trees. Elsewhere in the book of Revelation candlesticks represent churches. So, why do they represent individuals here? In Romans 11 olive trees represent people groups with the cultivated olive tree representing Israel (the Israel of God) and the wild olive tree representing the Gentiles. So, in my view, the two witnesses represent believing Israelites/Jews and believing Gentiles together as one, which is the church.

Your post #575.
Yes, I can see how you understand that the two witnesses are born again Jews and Gentiles in the church age, but I don't agree with it.
Not because of my own beliefs, but because of what Paul said in Rom. 10
[12] For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
If then the Lord sees both as being one in Him, then they are NOT two (separate) witnesses, but rather one witness.

 

[Earburner]

I don't deflect nor was I off topic. You are avoiding the evidence that proves you wrong.

Sorry, that was an error in posting. My post was to "David in NJ".
But, if you think I am wrong, then you know the answers to my two questions in my post #574. Could you please provide the correct answers? For when you do, then you will know what is correct about the two witnesses being two persons, being that of John the baptist and Jesus.
Everyone else seems to be stumped, and therefore are ignoring them.

 

[ewq1938]

Sorry, that was an error in posting. My post was to "David in NJ".
But, if you think I am wrong, then you know the answers to my two questions in my post #574. Could you please provide the correct answers?

Not until it's established when John first prophesied, then we can talk about his second one.

 

[Earburner]

Not until it's established when John first prophesied, then we can talk about his second one.

Ok, though you missed my first question, thank you for at least making an attempt at my second question in post #574. So if you would please re-read post #574 (my response to #572 by "David in NJ"), you might gain more insight of why I presented my two questions, and why I reached my conclusion in the following answers.

Here are the answers:
1. Q. Concerning Rev. 11:1-4, Who is it that is speaking through the angel in verse 1? (See Rev. 1:1)
Ans. The answer is found in Rev. 1:1, The LORD Himself, who is God the Father.

2. Q. Do you have a clue of how and when John was to prophecy to all people?
Your answer is?? (See Rev. 1:11).
Ans.  How John was able to prophecy to ALL people, is he was first told to write a book, BY THE LORD GOD, through the angel (Rev. 1:11), and then send it to the seven churches, which he did do, shortly after 96 AD.
When John did send the "little book" to the seven churches, that book called "Revelation" has gone out to the whole world for ALL to read, and is still being read today, 1,927+/- years ago.
SO FAR, John has been prophesying, through the BOOK of Revelation, to ALL people for 1,927+/- YEARS.

Therefore, in all actuality, it was GOD the Father speaking His words through both Jesus and through the angel:
[3] And I [The LORD]**will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Rev. 11[4] These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

Thus my conclusion: John the Baptist and Jesus are the two witnesses, sent by God the Father Himself.

** and before anyone jumps to the false conclusion that I am changing or re-writing the book of Revelation, then let's ALL stop interpreting it, as proved by the thousands of understandings that are out there in the world.

 

[rwb]

Your post #575.
Yes, I can see how you understand that the two witnesses are born again Jews and Gentiles in the church age, but I don't agree with it.
Not because of my own beliefs, but because of what Paul said in Rom. 10
[12] For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
If then the Lord sees both as being one in Him, then they are NOT two (separate) witnesses, but rather one witness.

Romans 10 helps in our understanding of how both the Old and New Covenant Church, through faithful witnesses have always represented the two witnesses of Rev 11 and are symbolized as two olive trees and two candlesticks. We are all of the same one Lord, one faith, one body, called the Church.

 

[rwb]

Ok, though you missed my first question, thank you for at least making an attempt at my second question in post #574. So if you would please re-read post #574 (my response to #572 by "David in NJ"), you might gain more insight of why I presented my two questions, and why I reached my conclusion in the following answers.

Here are the answers:
1. Q. Concerning Rev. 11:1-4, Who is it that is speaking through the angel in verse 1? (See Rev. 1:1)
Ans. The answer is found in Rev. 1:1, The LORD Himself, who is God the Father.

2. Q. Do you have a clue of how and when John was to prophecy to all people?
Your answer is?? (See Rev. 1:11).
Ans.  How John was able to prophecy to ALL people, is he was first told to write a book, BY THE LORD GOD, through the angel (Rev. 1:11), and then send it to the seven churches, which he did do, shortly after 96 AD.
When John did send the "little book" to the seven churches, that book called "Revelation" has gone out to the whole world for ALL to read, and is still being read today, 1,927+/- years ago.
SO FAR, John has been prophesying, through the BOOK of Revelation, to ALL people for 1,927+/- YEARS.

Therefore, in all actuality, it was GOD the Father speaking His words through both Jesus and through the angel:
[3] And I [The LORD]**will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Rev. 11[4] These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

Thus my conclusion: John the Baptist and Jesus are the two witnesses, sent by God the Father Himself.

** and before anyone jumps to the false conclusion that I am changing or re-writing the book of Revelation, then let's ALL stop interpreting it, as proved by the thousands of understandings that are out there in the world.

While I agree that both John the Baptist and Christ were witnesses sent by God, I don't agree with limiting them to the two witnesses that are the two olive trees and two candlesticks.

Representing the two olive trees are God's anointed Priests, the Levites who were anointed to administer and serve the Temple through all the Law. The olive trees are also represented by Prophets chosen and anointed by God to foretell the Messiah/Saviour prophesied to come and redeem faithful Jews from bondage to death.

Representing the two candlesticks the Gospel and Holy Spirit sent out unto all the world that whosoever hears and believes the Gospel according to grace through faith by the power of the Spirit shall never die.

These are not two different means of salvation for mankind. None from either Old or New can be saved without faith! The Gospel, the message/Word about Christ has been heard from the beginning. God first told us of the one who would come to crush the head of the serpent, and that same message, the Gospel was heard even by Abraham, and Jews of old too heard the message of Christ.

Genesis 3:14-15 (KJV) And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Galatians 3:8 (KJV) And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Romans 10:18-20 (KJV) But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world. But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you. But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.

It is for this reason that I view the two witnesses as the Church on earth from both the Old and New Covenant, the faithful saints going forth with the Gospel and power of the Spirit to build the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven until the seventh angel begins to sound that time for proclaiming the Gospel of Christ "that there should be time no longer", the mystery of God is finished.

 

[Earburner]

Romans 10 helps in our understanding of how both the Old and New Covenant Church, through faithful witnesses have always represented the two witnesses of Rev 11 and are symbolized as two olive trees and two candlesticks. We are all of the same one Lord, one faith, one body, called the Church.

So then, you are saying and showing that there is a difference between Jew and Gentile and therefore, according to your conclusion, they are the two witnesses.

However, though both are NOW in Christ, both are actually only one witness, with Christ Himself being the second witness.

 

[Earburner]

Following through from above:
Jesus is the true witness unto God.
John the Baptist was sent to be a witness to Jesus, but only in the spirit (similar way) of Elijah.

Do we not go through the baptism of John, to then be baptized by God's Holy Spirit, through faith in Jesus?
Yes! I do believe that is the process: "to fulfill all righteousness".

Now it's not the case that we are "anointed" by John, but rather we are "anointed" by Jesus' "anointing", as John did say.
Therefore, in that manner, the two anointed ones are Jesus Himself and the church.
Now by that, I do agree.

I think we are really seeing the greater picture here now.

 

[ewq1938]

Ok, though you missed my first question, thank you for at least making an attempt at my second question in post #574.

You avoided what I said in my post so I will stop reading at this first sentence.

 

[ewq1938]

Therefore, in that manner, the two anointed ones are Jesus Himself and the church.

And you are teaching an immortal Christ can die. That is a false Christ.

Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
Rev 11:9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

 

[David in NJ]

And you are teaching an immortal Christ can die. That is a false Christ.

Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
Rev 11:9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

And this is the reason i stopped responding as well.

They ignore/reject clear scripture.

 

[rwb]

So then, you are saying and showing that there is a difference between Jew and Gentile and therefore, according to your conclusion, they are the two witnesses.

However, though both are NOW in Christ, both are actually only one witness, with Christ Himself being the second witness.

They are not 'two' but one Holy Church according to grace through faith. The Old Covenant body of Christ MUST believe through the Law and prophets the Messiah would come. Those who believed were the Church in the wilderness (Acts 7:38). Now, since He has come, we must believe the Gospel through the power of the Holy Spirit. As you say "one witness" making one holy body in Christ, who are many from both the Old Covenant nation and New Covenant of faithful saints throughout every nation.

 

[Earburner]

They are not 'two' but one Holy Church according to grace through faith. The Old Covenant body of Christ MUST believe through the Law and prophets the Messiah would come. Those who believed were the Church in the wilderness (Acts 7:38). Now, since He has come, we must believe the Gospel through the power of the Holy Spirit. As you say "one witness" making one holy body in Christ, who are many from both the Old Covenant nation and New Covenant of faithful saints throughout every nation.

They were NOT ONE HOLY church.
Not UNTIL the blood of Christ was shed, which is the ONLY WAY, that sin can be fully forgiven AND REMOVED.
There isn't one OT Saint of the OC that had the Gift of God's Holy Spirit permanently, UNTIL "after" the day of His resurrection and the days of Pentecost.

Most all of them who were of faith died, and were still waiting for "the Promise to come", and were shown to be in the "book of God's Remembrance"- Malachi 3:16.

They are seen in Rev. 6:9-12 as being under the altar, whereby "after Christ's resurrection", they each and all received "white robes", aka the permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
Today, their names now have been written in the Lamb's book of Life, which is He Himself.
To be IN Jesus, is to be IN the KoG.

I believe we are saying the same thing, but in different ways.

Do you recall what I said in post #574?
Here it is again:
"Have you not understood that when God speaks, He speaks in the past, in the present, in the future and in eternity, ALL AT THE SAME TIME.
Our little "squirrel cage" of a brain cannot handle such thinking!! Why do you think that there are so many different interpretations of the book of Revelation???"