No One Dies And Goes To Heaven. It is not the Gospel of Christ.

[Raeneske]

His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish. (Psalm 146:4 KJV)

It is being said there is no help in these people. But what is it saying about these people? It says there breath goes forth, and he returns to earth (like how we die, and decay), and in that day his thought perish.

And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. (Luke 23:43 KJV)

Unfortunatly, this comma is in error. When the KJV first came, punctuation wasn't inspired. That's a little obvious when we look at the next verse.

Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. (John 20:17 KJV)

The problem with these two verses, is it LOOKS like Jesus was being untruthful either to Mary, or to the Theif on the Cross. Which was he being untruthful to? Neither.

The Comma goes after the word today. Changes the whole meaning of the verse. Jesus is saying "I say unti you today, you shall be with me in paradise". Now this section is in complete harmony.

So we see that Jesus died, and for three days was in the grave, and then was ressurected. Then Jesus confirms that he has not been to Heaven yet, by talking to Mary saying He was not in Heaven. Where was he? Dead, or as he refers to it - He was "sleeping". No consciousness in death, that is Pagan philosophy my friend. Never was in scriptures, just verses pulled out to support that little theory. Not really a surprise, since Paganism and Christianity have blended immensly in these last days. Simply put, can a dead man praise the Lord?

The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence. (Psalm 115:17 KJV)

Lazarus was one of Christ's, but did you pay attention to when he would be alive again? In the ressurection, on the last day. The "Dead in Christ" shall raise first. So yes, there are believers in Christ who die. We are without consciousness.

Ecclesiates applies to everyone. Are you alive? Then you know that one day you shall die.
Let's look at your contrasting a little deeper.
The living know that they shall die. This cannot possibly be refering to just Christians. Why? Because it says the living know that they shall DIE. Some places teach that death just means to be without Christ. Christians living know that one day they shall be without Christ? I hope not, because that's pretty scary in itself. It is very plain here. The living know that they shall die, plain and simple. I know i'm going to die one day, you're going to die one day. But what about the dead? Well harmonizing with scripture, you read that we don't know anything in death.

Put it like this, either Jesus died for you, or he didn't. So which is it? Did he pretend to die? No, of course not. Jesus literally died, as it says the wages of sin is death. "Ye shall not surely die" is a lie of the devil.

The ressurection doesn't contradict scripture. They were raised, to bear witness of Christ, then taken to heaven. Where does it indicate there was consciousness in their death? Nowhere. Moses was also ressurected. We can find out the contention between Moses body between the Lord and Satan in scripture.

Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee. (Jude 1:9 KJV)

For the sake of there not being idolatry, God buried Moses in a place where no man knew. God then raised Moses up, and brought Him to Heaven. When this happened, we have no clue. Those are secrets for God and Him alone.

Notice, there is a ressurection of the dead, and not a ressurection of the living. That wouldn't even make any sense. As Paul taught, the Saints are indeed ressurected as Christ was.

As God says, the soul that sinneth, it shall die (at least 3 times). We have sinned, thus we die. It is literal death, not "ye shall not surely die". Was God right or Satan?
Do we die?
Or shall we surely not die?

 

[revturmoil]

His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish. (Psalm 146:4 KJV)

It is being said there is no help in these people. But what is it saying about these people? It says there breath goes forth, and he returns to earth (like how we die, and decay), and in that day his thought perish.

And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. (Luke 23:43 KJV)

Unfortunatly, this comma is in error. When the KJV first came, punctuation wasn't inspired. That's a little obvious when we look at the next verse.

Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. (John 20:17 KJV)

The problem with these two verses, is it LOOKS like Jesus was being untruthful either to Mary, or to the Theif on the Cross. Which was he being untruthful to? Neither.

The Comma goes after the word today. Changes the whole meaning of the verse. Jesus is saying "I say unti you today, you shall be with me in paradise". Now this section is in complete harmony.

So we see that Jesus died, and for three days was in the grave, and then was ressurected. Then Jesus confirms that he has not been to Heaven yet, by talking to Mary saying He was not in Heaven. Where was he? Dead, or as he refers to it - He was "sleeping". No consciousness in death, that is Pagan philosophy my friend. Never was in scriptures, just verses pulled out to support that little theory. Not really a surprise, since Paganism and Christianity have blended immensly in these last days. Simply put, can a dead man praise the Lord?

The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence. (Psalm 115:17 KJV)

Lazarus was one of Christ's, but did you pay attention to when he would be alive again? In the ressurection, on the last day. The "Dead in Christ" shall raise first. So yes, there are believers in Christ who die. We are without consciousness.

Ecclesiates applies to everyone. Are you alive? Then you know that one day you shall die.
Let's look at your contrasting a little deeper.
The living know that they shall die. This cannot possibly be refering to just Christians. Why? Because it says the living know that they shall DIE. Some places teach that death just means to be without Christ. Christians living know that one day they shall be without Christ? I hope not, because that's pretty scary in itself. It is very plain here. The living know that they shall die, plain and simple. I know i'm going to die one day, you're going to die one day. But what about the dead? Well harmonizing with scripture, you read that we don't know anything in death.

Put it like this, either Jesus died for you, or he didn't. So which is it? Did he pretend to die? No, of course not. Jesus literally died, as it says the wages of sin is death. "Ye shall not surely die" is a lie of the devil.

The ressurection doesn't contradict scripture. They were raised, to bear witness of Christ, then taken to heaven. Where does it indicate there was consciousness in their death? Nowhere. Moses was also ressurected. We can find out the contention between Moses body between the Lord and Satan in scripture.

Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee. (Jude 1:9 KJV)

For the sake of there not being idolatry, God buried Moses in a place where no man knew. God then raised Moses up, and brought Him to Heaven. When this happened, we have no clue. Those are secrets for God and Him alone.

Notice, there is a ressurection of the dead, and not a ressurection of the living. That wouldn't even make any sense. As Paul taught, the Saints are indeed ressurected as Christ was.

As God says, the soul that sinneth, it shall die (at least 3 times). We have sinned, thus we die. It is literal death, not "ye shall not surely die". Was God right or Satan?
Do we die?
Or shall we surely not die?

It makes no sense that a man dying on a cross would have to remind another man dying on a cross that he is telling him something 'today'. One thing for sure is that both men (all 3 actually) were going to die 'TODAY'. In every other instance (over 50 times) where Jesus uses the phrase, Verily...I say unto you... he never says or implies that he is saying it... 'today.'
I get so tired of Christian's who pervert God's word in order to fit their theology.

 

[Raeneske]

You face a conundrum then. Christ explained to Mary that He had not risen to His Father yet. He's either being untruthful to one, or the other in this case. So now, it does not mean "today this is happening". Christ did use Verily Verily, many times, how he chose to word His sentences is up to Him. He did not mean "today we're going to heaven" as is commonly taught. Many other areas in scripture prove that very point. As stated, punctuation was not inspired, the comma was added afterwards. The KJV has tiny errors here or there, sometimes the wording doesn't seem as precise as it should be. This is one of those times, and you can find that out by studying the state of the dead.

Also, you could say why did Jesus say "Verily verily" all the time? Why say truly, twice? Is there any reason to believe Jesus would lie? This is just the way the language was. So yes, Truly I say to you today, he did not mean they were going to heaven on that day.

 

[Rach1370]

No...no conundrum.

For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, (1 Peter 3:18-19 ESV)

Now, I'm not debating who these 'spirits' might be, although I do have an opinion. But the fact is this: Peter tells us that Jesus didn't spend 3 days 'asleep', doing nothing. He spend those days 'proclaiming' his victory and the Fathers glory.

 

[us2are1]

Psalm 146:4 - His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

Ecclesiates 9:5,6 - For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

Ecclesiates 9:10 - Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

Ezekial 18:4 - Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Matthew 10:28 - And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

5 excerpts, which come out to a total of 6 verses were chosen here, to show the state of the dead. There are more, but these are the ones that come to my mind first. In Psalm 146:4, we see that when man dies, in that very day, his thoughts perish. Ecclesiates 9:5-6 says that the living (that would be us) know that they shall die, but the dead know not anything. This much is clear: As we are alive, we know that we shall die someday (if Jesus doesn’t come beforehand). However the dead? They don’t know anything. The dead also have no more a reward for anything under the sun, and their memory is forgotten (meaning gone). Their feelings of LOVE, HATRED, and ENVY are all perished. They partake in nothing else that is done under the sun. In 9:10 we see, that in the grave there is also no wisdom or knowledge in the grave where we go. We behold in Ezekial, all the souls are God’s. And the soul that sins, it shall DIE. This lines up with Romans that teaches, the wages of sin is DEATH. Matthew 10:28 shows plainly that we are not to fear them which can only kill the body, yet CANT KILL THE SOUL. But we are to fear God who CAN destroy body AND soul. This is why, the soul that sins, it shall DIE. Constantly echoed in Christianity, is Pagan Philosophy, which is not stated in scripture that:

Genesis 3:4 - And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

In other words: Most theology today agrees with Satan. “You won’t REALLY die”, even though God said ye shall DIE. Death is sleep, as according to Lord Jesus:

John 11:11-14 - These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
John 11:21-24 - Then said Martha unto Jesus, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died. But I know, that even now, whatsoever thou wilt ask of God, God will give it thee. Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again. Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

Death is just sleep to Jesus. Why? Well, for His saints death is not eternal. “Oh death where is thy sting? Where is thy victory?” Just like Jesus had victory of death, so shall His saints, as He gives them power to overcome sin and death, and resurrects him.
Now, as for the resurrection, and for heaven – We see that on the last day, Jesus shall rise his Saints up again. So truly, the Saints sleep in earth, until Jesus comes for the resurrection. It is obvious we go to heaven, but not yet. You can even see this of King David:

Acts 2:29 - Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

3 ½ years after the Resurrection of Christ, and his ascension into heaven, Peter is showing that King David, who was a godly man, was both dead and buried. Does this also mean, he has not YET ascended into heaven?

Acts 2:34 - For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

So, David is not YET ascended into heaven, which confirms the fact that you don’t immediately go to heaven when you die. But do you go to heaven at all? YES, you do!

John 14:1-3 - Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Gensis 5:24 - And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

Hebrews 11:5 - By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

We do go to heaven, after the resurrection. Enoch represented the living Saints, who shall not taste death in the final times on earth. Enoch was translated as we are to be who are alive “in the twinkling of an eye” that we should not see death. Enoch went to heaven, WITHOUT seeing death. And so was Elijah the prophet.

2 Kings 2:11 - And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

While I agree, we do not go to heaven immediately after death; I do not agree that we will never go to heaven. As for the 1000 year millennium, that’s a whole other topic. That’s something that bangs on the doors of false doctrine as well, but that’s neither here nor there.

Amen Raeneske
I agree with everything except we go to heaven after the Resurrection from the dead. The Spirit that dwells in us is already in heaven. Everything happens here. The invisible God sits on an invisible throne here. If the invisible God dwells in you you are already in heaven.

13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.

 

[Raeneske]

Rach,

Can you explain then why your beliefs state we go to heaven immediatly at death? If Jesus is saying "Today you'll be with me in heaven" And 3 days later he states "I have not yet ascended into Heaven".

Either he didn't, or he did. This belief makes it appear that Jesus is lying to either the theif, or Mary. But, when you study the state of the dead, it shows that Jesus died, and there is no consciousness, I repeat, no consciousness in death.

Also, where does the Bible teach Jesus was preaching when he was dead? That would also contradict scripture.

 

[veteran]

Rach,

Can you explain then why your beliefs state we go to heaven immediatly at death? If Jesus is saying "Today you'll be with me in heaven" And 3 days later he states "I have not yet ascended into Heaven".

Either he didn't, or he did. This belief makes it appear that Jesus is lying to either the theif, or Mary. But, when you study the state of the dead, it shows that Jesus died, and there is no consciousness, I repeat, no consciousness in death.

Also, where does the Bible teach Jesus was preaching when he was dead? That would also contradict scripture.

Rach just quoted the 1 Pet.3 verse for you in bold. Couldn't you read that?


1 Pet 3:18-20
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also He went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
(KJV)

1 Pet 4:5-6
5 Who shall give account to Him That is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
(KJV)

The "spirits in prison" was a prophecy from Isaiah 42.


It should be obvious that "prison" Peter mentioned is NOT in the same dimension as us here on earth. That's why I find it funny how many try to place Satan's abode of the 'pit' of hell inside the literal earth somewhere. It's not inside the earth; it's in another dimension of existence, one of spirit. And our Lord Jesus revealed it in Luke 16 with the story about Lazarus and the rich man. It reveals that the heavenly dimension has different areas to it, and the Heaven which Christ ascended to The Father at the right hand of His Throne is not the same area in that heavenly dimension.

Why does one think God's Word uses the idea of a "prison" for that pit where hell is? We have literal prisons here on earth to house the wicked, so how is it so many have a hard time recoginizing there's a place of separation in the heavenly for the wicked dead also? That's the "prison" Peter was speaking of.

 

[Rach1370]

Rach,

Can you explain then why your beliefs state we go to heaven immediatly at death? If Jesus is saying "Today you'll be with me in heaven" And 3 days later he states "I have not yet ascended into Heaven".

Either he didn't, or he did. This belief makes it appear that Jesus is lying to either the theif, or Mary. But, when you study the state of the dead, it shows that Jesus died, and there is no consciousness, I repeat, no consciousness in death.

Also, where does the Bible teach Jesus was preaching when he was dead? That would also contradict scripture.

Actually, I believe Jesus tells the thief that today he would be with him in "Paradise". I could, perhaps, argue that 'paradise' is not heaven, in that sense...yet. Jesus' atoning work changed things fairly massively.
But It's not really my point what the term means or not. My point is this: Jesus clearly says to the man that today they will be somewhere. Paul also clearly says that to die is to be with Jesus...both give the very obvious conclusion that we do not 'sleep' unaware, we are both aware and somewhere, with some one. So, we either accept those things to be true, or we do what Son of Man has, and decide that certain parts of the bible aren't true, as they don't back our views. I think I'm going to go with God's Word.

 

[Raeneske]

I understand how you can come to those conclusions Rach. But you're choosing points of the word to be "true" for you as well. I must say, with Jesus declaring he had not yet been to heaven yet when he was talking to Mary 3 days after His ressurection (John 20:17), and with Peter telling us that not even David has yet ascended into heaven (Acts 2:29,34), leaves a conundrum for those who think immediate heaven, after death. As for "paradise" that would just be another word for heaven. The other explanation i heard for "paradise" was a "prison" that Jesus went down into - Which, makes no sense. Prison is not paradise. Jesus was not saying "We're going there today", what He was saying is that "I tell you today, you shall be with me in heaven". Yes, one comma can change the whole meaning of a verse, and this falls in harmony with the rest of the Word of God.

As for "Absent from the body, present with the Lord" Paul describes when such a thing happens, which is at Christ's second coming, when the dead in Christ raise first, then we which are alive shall be changed in the twinkling of an eye. Saying we "maintain consciousness" is the same as saying there is no ressurection of the dead which is exactly what Paul preached in 1 Corinth 15. We literally die, just like Jesus Christ did, and then we are ressurected. That is the blessed hope. Not Satan's lie "ye shall not surely die", but we literally die, and are ressurected by the Saviour.

Absent from the body, present with the Lord at the moment at death?
1 Corinthians 15:35,42,44 - But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened except it die: So also is the ressurection of the dead. It is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in a natural body: it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

You have a natural body now. At death is not when you are not any longer of a natural body, but as your body is raised, that's when you are of a spiritual body. You are then absent from the natural body, raised into a spiritual one, and present with The Lord.

 

[Rach1370]

I understand how you can come to those conclusions Rach. But you're choosing points of the word to be "true" for you as well. I must say, with Jesus declaring he had not yet been to heaven yet when he was talking to Mary 3 days after His ressurection (John 20:17), and with Peter telling us that not even David has yet ascended into heaven (Acts 2:29,34), leaves a conundrum for those who think immediate heaven, after death. As for "paradise" that would just be another word for heaven. The other explanation i heard for "paradise" was a "prison" that Jesus went down into - Which, makes no sense. Prison is not paradise. Jesus was not saying "We're going there today", what He was saying is that "I tell you today, you shall be with me in heaven". Yes, one comma can change the whole meaning of a verse, and this falls in harmony with the rest of the Word of God.

No, I'm not 'choosing points' of scripture to be 'true' and not others. ALL of scripture is correct and God breathed. That's why proper exegesis and hermeneutics is essential for biblical understanding. We can't just say 'this bit supports my theology, so I believe this part, while ignoring that other bit'....we have to get our understanding from all of scripture...and when everything comes together and there are no contradictions found, then we can know that we are correctly reading God's word.

Now, yes, I agree that Jesus tells Mary he has not been to his father, but it does not anywhere give us leave to say that he spent those three days 'sleeping' and doing absolutely nothing. Its just not found in scripture.

As for the Acts verse about David, you need to take into context what Peter is actually saying to the Jews. He's busy linking OT prophecy to Jesus. He quotes what David wrote:

For David says concerning him,
“‘I saw the Lord always before me,
for he is at my right hand that I may not be shaken...

For you will not abandon my soul to Hades,
or let your Holy One see corruption.' (Acts 2:25a, 27 ESV)

He's telling them that David himself prophesied that the Messiah would not be 'dead' long enough to decay, and sure enough, Jesus rose on the third day.

And again:

For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he himself says,
“‘The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at my right hand,
until I make your enemies your footstool.”’ (Acts 2:34-35 ESV)

David is talking about Jesus being at God's right hand. We know, says Peter, that David is talking about Jesus, because David's body still lies in his tomb....Jesus body is not in the tomb.

So, I disagree that either of these points gives anyone leave to think that a Christian lies 'sleeping' when they die. In fact, when coupled with the verses I've already given, I would say the answer is quite evident.

As for "Absent from the body, present with the Lord" Paul describes when such a thing happens, which is at Christ's second coming, when the dead in Christ raise first, then we which are alive shall be changed in the twinkling of an eye. Saying we "maintain consciousness" is the same as saying there is no ressurection of the dead which is exactly what Paul preached in 1 Corinth 15. We literally die, just like Jesus Christ did, and then we are ressurected. That is the blessed hope. Not Satan's lie "ye shall not surely die", but we literally die, and are ressurected by the Saviour.

Absent from the body, present with the Lord at the moment at death?
1 Corinthians 15:35,42,44 - But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened except it die: So also is the ressurection of the dead. It is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in a natural body: it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

You have a natural body now. At death is not when you are not any longer of a natural body, but as your body is raised, that's when you are of a spiritual body. You are then absent from the natural body, raised into a spiritual one, and present with The Lord.

Ah, no. That whole passage (1 Cor 15:35) is talking about 'the new resurrection body' which is going to be 'spiritual', of course, but this passage tells it will be physical, like Jesus' was...the passage is talking about how our now physical bodies are corruptible, but at the resurrection we shall put on 'new' bodies.... And the whole 'Absent from the body, present with the Lord' is from Philippians 1:23...and it is talking about Paul's possible imminent death, what would happen if he did die....two very different topics of conversation.
And quite frankly, again, I do not see that scripture in any way gives us leave to suppose that we go from death into 'sleep', only to regain any kind of consciousness at the resurrection of our old, natural bodies...certainly the two scriptures above do not.

 

[Raeneske]

Rach,

I understand what those verses are referring to, about Jesus's body not seeing corruption. However, that does not contradict Peter's comment that David is both "Dead and buried". He's speaking freely of the Patriarch who prophecied about Jesus. He then explains that David is not yet in Heaven, but His Lord said to His Lord "Sit thou at my right hand". Understand, he made it a point to say the Heavenbound man is not YET in Heaven. He is both, dead and buried - literally dead, as the Bible explains death.

These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead. Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again. Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. (John 11:11-14, 23, 24 KJV)

The resurrection at the last day, was when Lazarus should rise. As Jesus said himself, death is "sleep" to Him. Let me speak plainly, the dead do not know anything, nor do they have feelings etc.

For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun. Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest. (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6, 10 KJV)

These words cannot be controverted. The living know that they shall die, and the dead know nothing. Death is what God says it is, not what Pagan Philosophy and Satan says it is. Who was the very person who taught you shall not actually die? The Word of God makes it clear that you die. The question remains, do you believe we shall die, or do you believe we shall not surely die?

Jesus actually dying is one of the beauties of the scripture. Our Saviour came down here to die for us. Yes, Jesus faced a literal end of life, for human beings. What fear is there in death if we are actually eternal? Jesus Christ, whom is eternal, chose to come down here, and end His life, which none gave Him, and end His life for us, that we may live. Yes, he literally died. Death means death, no existance, as you have never been. Just like it was before you and I were created. You are nothing. Jesus chose that period of nothingness to bring LIFE to us.

Also, where did I say we come back in out old natural bodies? We do not, but you are ressurected a spiritual body. God gives us a body, as it pleases Him.

For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: (Philippians 1:23 KJV)

Death is gain for the Christian, especially to die for Christ's sake. After you die, the next conscious thing that happens is the ressurection. That is why it is desirous for a Christian to die. You won't be consciously alive, waiting for Christ to come. At the moment of death, the next conscious moment is the ressurection of life. Literally, it shall be as no time has passed. The apostles who are both dead and buried now, have no consciousness that they're dead. The very next conscious thing they shall hear, is their Lord's voice raising them from the dead. It shall be to them, as if no time has passed at all. That is a blessed hope. From one moment alive, the last conscious breath, to the next conscious moment ressurected and ascending into the air to meet Christ.

Can't you see why there is blessed hope in being a Christian? Can you see why it would be a blessing to die? Essentially, your waiting is over. You have no consciousness of any event transpiring until the Lord calls you. Say someone dies in their sleep. One moment, they're closing their eyes for a rest, the next, the Lord is calling them to arise, to immortal glory!

P.S.
It must also be said that - The belief that there is consciousness in death, has given a rise to spiritualism. Demons masquerading as loved ones, with "messages from heaven" are nothing but messages from the Enemy of Souls. If we do not understand there is no consciousness in death, we have no defense against the enemies spiritualistic tactics. Even things like NDEs (near death experiences) could be guarded against if people read scripture as understood death as it is taught. Somehow, people who have "died" are made to believe they know everything and become one with the universe, at the moment at death. What defense have we against such things without the plainest testimonies from the Word of God? When the Bible says you know nothing at death, spiritualism in Christianity teaches you know everything at death. When the Bible says people have nothing to do with anything under the sun (on the earth) after they die, Spiritualism believes ghosts and loved ones can come back to haunt you. The belief that there is consciousness in death has done nothing but confuse souls, and lead more on the path to hell.

 

[Rach1370]

Wow....I disagree with so much of that...but I don't have time to answer you just yet!
By the way...I'm really appreciating how we are disagreeing and debating, and yet you're still calm and polite! Ta....

 

[us2are1]

This truth remains and is paramount.

No one dies and goes to Heaven.

There is a Resurrection from the dead at Christ's return to earth. Where those who have died in Christ will be brought back to life.
They remain dead until brought back to life by God.

No one has ever ascended into heaven dead.
Man is flesh like God has said and will remain flesh until God changes him at the Resurrection from the dead.






.

 

[Nomad]

This truth remains and is paramount.

No one dies and goes to Heaven.

There is a Resurrection from the dead at Christ's return to earth. Where those who have died in Christ will be brought back to life.
They remain dead until brought back to life by God.

No one has ever ascended into heaven dead.
Man is flesh like God has said and will remain flesh until God changes him at the Resurrection from the dead.

Your assertion is false.

2Co 5:8 Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

Php 1:21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
Php 1:22 If I am to live in the flesh, that means fruitful labor for me. Yet which I shall choose I cannot tell.
Php 1:23 I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better.
Php 1:24 But to remain in the flesh is more necessary on your account.

Paul makes it clear. To die is to depart the body. To depart the body is to be present with the Lord. 1 Cor. 15 doesn't help you because it's all about the resurrection of the body which the spirit/soul departs at death.

1Co 15:42 So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable.
1Co 15:43 It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power.
1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

 

[us2are1]

Your assertion is false.

2Co 5:8 Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

Php 1:21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
Php 1:22 If I am to live in the flesh, that means fruitful labor for me. Yet which I shall choose I cannot tell.
Php 1:23 I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better.
Php 1:24 But to remain in the flesh is more necessary on your account.

Paul makes it clear. To die is to depart the body. To depart the body is to be present with the Lord. 1 Cor. 15 doesn't help you because it's all about the resurrection of the body which the spirit/soul departs at death.

1Co 15:42 So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable.
1Co 15:43 It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power.
1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

Your imagination is not allowed in those scriptures. Without it it doesn't say anything about going to heaven. It doesn't say anything about anything but a Resurrection from the dead at Christs return.

So this is still valid.

This truth remains and is paramount.

No one dies and goes to Heaven.

There is a Resurrection from the dead at Christ's return to earth. Where those who have died in Christ will be brought back to life.
They remain dead until brought back to life by God.

No one has ever ascended into heaven dead.
Man is flesh like God has said and will remain flesh until God changes him at the Resurrection from the dead.

Why is it that these post scriptures talking about the Resurrection from the dead and suppose that it says something else? How do you get dying and going to heaven out of the Resurrection from the dead?

They just don't seem to be able to hear the scriptures that they themselves are posting. speaking of a Resurrection from the dead and not going to heaven when they die.

No one has given a single scripture that has anyone going to heaven. especially sense Christ is leaving heaven at the last trump and returning to earth to catch up His saints.

 

[Raeneske]

Son of man,

Now, about going to heaven immediatly at death, no that I don't believe. However, at the ressurection? That I do believe. I want to make a quick point about the millenium beforehand though:

Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. (1 Corinthians 10:11 KJV)

We are in danger to becoming like fallen Israel. They expected Christ to come and rule in this world over them. They expected Him to break the Roman rule, and rule over us. Is this any different than Him ruling on earth again? Christ ruling for 1000 years on earth with a "rod of iron"? If the same lie worked 2000 years ago, why change it? (The same can be said for 6000 years ago, with Satan's "ye shall not surely die"). He just doesn't stop lying, no matter what different color he has to paint it.

Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. (John 8:44 KJV)

Behold, Satan, the father of lies. Now, what does Christ say about His Kingdom?

Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence. (John 18:36 KJV)

No, i'm no denying that Christ will come to this planet. He will touch it after the 1000 years. He will come to resurrect us (before the 1,000 years), the dead shall arise first, and be raised a spiritual body, then we which are alive shall be changed in the twinkling of an eye, and then caught up. When does this happen? On the last day of earth.

And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. (John 6:39 KJV)

Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. (John 11:24 KJV)

On the last day, which is why Christ says he will be with us alway, even unto the end of the earth.

Therefore prophesy thou against them all these words, and say unto them, The Lord shall roar from on high, and utter his voice from his holy habitation; he shall mightily roar upon his habitation; he shall give a shout, as they that tread the grapes, against all the inhabitants of the earth. A noise shall come even to the ends of the earth; for the Lord hath a controversy with the nations, he will plead with all flesh; he will give them that are wicked to the sword, saith the Lord. Thus saith the Lord of hosts, Behold, evil shall go forth from nation to nation, and a great whirlwind shall be raised up from the coasts of the earth. And the slain of the Lord shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth: they shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried; they shall be dung upon the ground. (Jeremiah 25:30-33 KJV)

When the Lord comes to the earth, the wicked will be utterly slain in that day. But what day does Jesus come as a theif to the wicked?

Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon. And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath. And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great. (Revelation 16:15-21 KJV)

In that day when the Lord comes, the slain of the Lord shall be at one end of the earth, to the other. They shall not be lamented over, or gathered, neither shall they be buried. The Lord comes just before the seventh plague, and there is a mighty earthquake, the greatest quake. And every island is gone away, and the mountains are not found. And a great hail out of heaven, every about the weight of a talent, falls down upon the wicked, and kills them all.
This is the state of planet earth, as Jesus calls us up into the air when He resurrects His saints, and calls up His living. Dead bodies, unburied, all slain, a great earthquake, hail stones all over the place, every island fled away, every mountain, gone. Is this a place we are actually going to rule? No, we are taken up to Heaven for 1000 years. But what proof have we that we are going to Heaven?

In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. (John 14:2, 3 KJV)

Jesus is going to prepare a place for us in His Father's house. Jesus is preparing a place for us, that where He is (heaven), we may be there also. We are going to Heaven when he comes again to receive us. When does He come again? The second coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. (Luke 23:42, 43 KJV)

Is this saying this very day they were going to paradise? No, and this you can understand. But it is clear, we shall be headed to paradise, in the Lord's Kingdom.

It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven. And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. (2 Corinthians 12:1-4 KJV)

He was caught up into the third heaven, (Heaven, meaning not the sky, which is also reffered to as heaven, as I can understand). He was caught up into paradise, and that's where he heard unspeakable words, where it is not lawful for a man to utter. Heaven was synonymous with paradise here, and notice he was "caught up" into Heaven. That's the same thing that's going to happen to the dead and the living on the last day.

He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God. (Revelation 2:7 KJV)

The tree of life is in the midst of paradise of God. The Paradise of God, is Heaven, as understood by the previous verses. In short, yes plainly, we do go to heaven. At death? No. At the resurrection though? Yes.

 

[us2are1]

This is what Christ says about His thousand year kingdom on earth.

40 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age.
41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness,
42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!

31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy messengers with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.
32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.
33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left

1 Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Father's name written on their foreheads.

2 Beautiful in elevation, The joy of the whole earth, Is Mount Zion on the sides of the north, The city of the great King.

Heaven is indeed coming to the earth to rule.

In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. (John 14:2, 3 KJV)

When Christ returns to earth from heaven then is when He raises the dead and catches up the saints into the air of earth. The abodes talked about here are their temple which will be raised incorruptible. They will then be where Christ is incorruptible in the air of earth.

What difference does it make to the common mortal,his or her last moment of awareness is when they die and their next is when they are resurrected,to the dead there is no passage of time,its not,wow i'm realy getting tired of laying here in this grave...my awareness has been suspended and will be returned to me at the resurrection so it will seem like i died and went to heaven in terms of time....my perception of time that is....because that is all time is...perception.

You died on earth and only if you are worthy you will awake on earth. No one dies and goes to heaven.

35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage;
36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the messengers and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.

 

[Raeneske]

The glorious New Jerusalem will come to earth, yes. But not before the 1000 years. We spend the 1000 years in Heaven, where Jesus said he would "go and prepare a place for you" so that "I will come again and receive you", and He'll take us where He was. That's the point of Jesus resurrecting all His saints who were dead, and bringing them up into the air, which are alive as well. And around that time the 7th plague will utterly kill all human life on the planet. They will all be slain and die, unburied, and every mountain and island shall flee away. During those 1000 years in heaven, "know ye not that we shall judge angels", etc.

 

[us2are1]

The glorious New Jerusalem will come to earth, yes. But not before the 1000 years. We spend the 1000 years in Heaven, where Jesus said he would "go and prepare a place for you" so that "I will come again and receive you", and He'll take us where He was. That's the point of Jesus resurrecting all His saints who were dead, and bringing them up into the air, which are alive as well. And around that time the 7th plague will utterly kill all human life on the planet. They will all be slain and die, unburied, and every mountain and island shall flee away. During those 1000 years in heaven, "know ye not that we shall judge angels", etc.

Scripture says nothing about Christ ruling in heaven for a thousand years. This scripture tells where Christ will rule for a thousand years.


41 The Son of Man will send out His messengers, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness,
42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!

31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy messengers with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.
32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.

 

[Foreigner]

It wouldn't do any good to tell you that Christ told me.

-- This is your response to me saying that your statement, "Luke was a keeper of the books a gentile scribe who lived in around 160 AD and wrote his version of the Gospel to the patriarch of Antioch Theophilus" was absolutely wrong.

I don't know who told you that, but it was NOT Christ.