No scripture supports the Rapture

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Copperhead

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Too bad you don't bother to put what the Bible actually does say; Ezekiel 4:4-5....I ordain Israel's punishment for 390 days, one day for each year of their exile....Then Judah's for 40 years. They are separate times for separate nations, that have not rejoined as yet.
Note that the House of Israel was finally exiled in 718/717 BC, and their punishment was multiplied by 7, Leviticus 26:18, making a total time of exile; 2730 years. This is just completed, so the true, righteous Christian Israel, Galatians 6:16, can very soon go to live in their heritage. Galatians 3:29

That comes also from your not acknowledging that all the tribes were commingled during the time of Rehoboam and Josiah as expounded on in 2 Chronicles. Ezekiel wrote his prophecy while in captivity in Babylon.

I think you missed it. Let's do the math you propose, using the exact same methodology I used in the 1948 calculation......

718 BC.
390x7=2730
2730 x 360 day prophetic calendar = 982800 days.
982800 days divided by 365.25 of the orbital calendar = 2692.6 years
-718 (718 BC) plus 2692.6 years plus 1 year to make up for a lack of a "zero" year, comes to 1975. Uh oh..... I hope you are not looking forward to much of a heritage. That ship passed you by.

Nice try though. But it was the fall of S. Vietnam that I got the misfortune to participate in. Maybe true Israel are the Vietnamese? I think it also was one of those years that Jehovah's Witnesses said that Jesus would return.... yeah, I remember a JW I worked with back in 1972 telling me that.
 
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keras

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That comes also from your not acknowledging that all the tribes were commingled during the time of Rehoboam and Josiah as expounded on in 2 Chronicles. Ezekiel wrote his prophecy while in captivity in Babylon.
The two House's SEPARATED during Rehoboam's reign. 1 Kings 12:16-17 And we know they have not yet rejoined from all that is prophesied in Ezekiel 37 and even the Apostles knew the Jews were not all of Israel.

Re the decreed exile: Why do you use a 360 day year? The earth orbits the sun in 365.24 days; THAT is a year.
I am NOT a JW. I know very well what the Bible says, what God plans for His people.
 

Copperhead

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2 Chronicles 11:13-17 (NKJV) And from all their territories the priests and the Levites who were in all Israel took their stand with him. 14 For the Levites left their common-lands and their possessions and came to Judah and Jerusalem, for Jeroboam and his sons had rejected them from serving as priests to the Lord. 15 Then he appointed for himself priests for the high places, for the demons, and the calf idols which he had made. 16 And after the Levites left, those from all the tribes of Israel, such as set their heart to seek the Lord God of Israel, came to Jerusalem to sacrifice to the Lord God of their fathers. 17 So they strengthened the kingdom of Judah, and made Rehoboam the son of Solomon strong for three years, because they walked in the way of David and Solomon for three years.

In 2 Chronicles 30, All the tribes were invited to attend the Passover.

2 Chronicles 34:8-9 (NKJV) In the eighteenth year of his reign, when he had purged the land and the temple, he sent Shaphan the son of Azaliah, Maaseiah the governor of the city, and Joah the son of Joahaz the recorder, to repair the house of the Lord his God. 9 When they came to Hilkiah the high priest, they delivered the money that was brought into the house of God, which the Levites who kept the doors had gathered from the hand of Manasseh and Ephraim, from all the remnant of Israel, from all Judah and Benjamin, and which they had brought back to Jerusalem.

Re the decreed exile: Why do you use a 360 day year? The earth orbits the sun in 365.24 days; THAT is a year.
I am NOT a JW. I know very well what the Bible says, what God plans for His people.

Biblical scholars have always viewed the 360 day prophetic calendar. The physical calendar was changed in in roughly 701 BC by Hezekiah by a complicated method of adding a month every Jewish leap year.

You want the details, probably more info than most want to know, you can see it all figured out historically here...

The Year of 360 Days
 

Wormwood

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Good grief. There is just no way I can keep up with you two. Way too many posts for me to try to follow and comment on. Ha! Good luck gentlemen.
 

Copperhead

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even the Apostles knew the Jews were not all of Israel.

Somehow, Paul didn't get the memo....

Romans 9:1-5 (NKJV) I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit, 2 that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; 5 of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen.
 

ezekiel

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I guess you could call Paul a man.

1 Thessalonians 4
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

1 Corinthians 15
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed—
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

j

All we need to understand the meaning of the coming of the Spirit. For in it is the meaning of this matter. Are the coming the end or not. Simple the dead are sleeping, what are the time frame from verse 16 and 17 one second or 15 years. Please note the clouds are all around me now. Do you understand this. For over 2000 years many have been waiting in the clouds. At the end all will be gathered and go to the Lords house. We shall all see the end of the flesh for flesh and blood will not go to heaven.
 

Copperhead

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Good grief. There is just no way I can keep up with you two. Way too many posts for me to try to follow and comment on. Ha! Good luck gentlemen.

It has been a good back and forth, for sure. But, discussions like this can be healthy, as long as they are done with a modicum of respect and an awareness that topics like this are side issues and not litmus tests for one's relationship with God. But like most discussions, it can get intense. Others might break fellowship with me over this kind of stuff, but I would not break fellowship with anyone over it.
 

keras

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Somehow, Paul didn't get the memo....
Yes he did, because he preached to the Galatians, who were a Celtic tribe from the House of Israel. And James 1:1 and 1 Peter 1:1 wrote to Israel in dispersion.
If you think that all of Israel rejoined under Rehoboam, circa 900 BC, then who were the people that Assyria conquered and took into captivity in 720 BC?

Plainly, you oppose the facts of the Bible and history because you grip onto the false theory of the 'rapture to heaven' of the Church, while the Jews; all Israel, as you have them, get tribulated on earth. This idea is quite impossible, as the Jews are only 2 of the 12 tribes and they are not as numerous as the 'sands of the sea', an uncountable population and not the people who received the Blessings of Moses and Jacob.
 
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Copperhead

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Yes he did, because he preached to the Galatians, who were a Celtic tribe from the House of Israel. And James 1:1 and 1 Peter 1:1 wrote to Israel in dispersion.

I knew we would eventually get to a British Israelism thing in some fashion, or some lost tribes idea. I will not play in that sand box. Using secular presupposition developed in the Middle Ages to prove a biblical point or to provide meaning to scripture, no, won't go down that rabbit trail. All foundation for scripture interpretation goes out the door when that happens and anyone can put any meaning on any verse they want at that point.

Now I understand why you discounted the 2 Chronicles description of all the tribes being commingled, and other passages that show the names Judah and Israel were used interchangeably to reference all the tribes.

That's ok. I know from where you come from, theologically, now. I strongly disagree. So since this sparing match being based on principled hermeneutics is not going to happen, we ought to just let it all rest.

It does beg the question... given the history behind being Jewish or considered such, why would anyone want to seek out and claim some lineage to a Jewish tribe? I am quite comfortable in being a wild olive branch that has been grafted into the tree. My sense for good business didn't go out the door when I became a believer. And incorporating all the promises and curses for the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is just plain bad business. I'll take the promises given by the Messiah to those who believe. You can have the land, you can have the other earthly promises to Israel, and any of the curses that come along when the descendent of those tribes rebel against God. Uh, oh, that speaks volumes right there! Seems none of the folks who claim Israel is now some dispersed nation in another part of the world ever lays claim to the curses and punishments. Kinda like when some of these New Age types always say they were a Knight, a King or Queen, or some other great figure in a past life. None of them claim to have been a pooper scooper or ditch digger in a past life.

I'll take Messiah.
 
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keras

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CH, you avoided my question: Who were the people conquered by Assyria in 720 BC?

It’s an unfortunate fact that most people – Christian and secular, believe that the Jews in the land of Israel and abroad have already rejoined with the 10 lost tribes - OR the 10 tribes are lost permanently, absorbed into the nations.

Certainly, at the time of the Assyrian conquest and captivity of the 10 tribes, many escaped to Judah. These people practised Judaism and became Jews. Note that 200,000 people from Judah were also taken into exile at that time according to Assyrian records.

Also note that some modern Jewish scholars admit that the 10 tribes are still in the world. In 1948, David Ben Gurion, was intending to declare the country of the Jews, to be the State of Judah. At the last moment he named the new country “Israel”.

Speculation as to the identity of the House of Israel has used up a lot of paper and ink, but most make the mistake of thinking that because some people groups have certain Jewish traditions, then they must be a lost tribe. It may be that they are Jews, or have been influenced by Judaism.

The Bible says that Israel would lose its language and identity and be scattered to the ends of the earth. But; Judah will be an object of derision and horror in the world. Jeremiah 29:18 This prophecy has certainly come true!

1 Kings 12:24 The Lord says- the split between Israel and Judah is My doing.

Zechariah 11:14 The Brotherhood annulled between Israel and Judah.

2 Chronicles 10:19 From that day to this, Israel is in rebellion against Judah.

Ezekiel 11:1-12 Ezekiel is talking to the leaders of Judah, delivering judgement on them for not keeping the laws of the Lord.

Ezekiel 11:13-17…. all the Israelites who are left? They are your brothers and kinsmen, this whole people of Israel, to whom the inhabitants now in Jerusalem have said, “They are separated far from the Lord; the land has been made over to us to possess”. Say, therefore.... When I sent them far away among the nations and dispersed them over the earth... I became their sanctuary.... Say, therefore..... I shall gather you from among the nations..... I shall give the land of Israel to you.

Zephaniah10:6-12 Triumph to Judah, Victory to Joseph... as though I had never cast them off. Ephraim like warriors.... rejoice in the Lord. I shall whistle to call them in. In far off lands, they will remember Me....Their enemies destroyed.... resettled back in Lebanon and Gilead.
This clearly describes the Psalm 83 event, then His people are gathered into the Land.

It is no wonder that so many ignore prophecy, as when they think that Israel and Judah are a single entity, only confusion results.
So, the prophecies to Judah, Jerusalem and the Jews pertain to the House of Judah.

The House of Israel, led by Ephraim (Joseph), has many prophecies telling of their blessings and final rejoining with Judah in the land. Each House has tasks appointed to it for the present days: Judah, the visible entity and Israel the Christian peoples.
 

n2thelight

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Somehow, Paul didn't get the memo....

Romans 9:1-5 (NKJV) I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit, 2 that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; 5 of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen.

This chapter deals with how that God knew His children from the time He created their souls in that first earth age. That is why God could say to Jeremiah, "I knew you before you were in your mothers womb". Of course He did, He made Jeremiah's soul and that soul was with Him in the age that was. God knew Jeremiah could be trusted.

Romans 9:1 "I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit,"

Paul is telling us that what he is going to say, he is sincere and is going to give it to us with a clear conscience. Paul was a great Bible scholar even before his conversion on the road to Damascus. Paul knew the scriptures, and then he met the Holy Spirit in a way that changed his whole life.

Romans 9:2 "That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart."

This letter is written to those that don't realize that the Messiah has already come. That is the sorrow in his heart, for at first he was part of that group. Then the Holy Spirit struck Paul down, and called Paul into His service. The record of this is found in the book of Acts 9:1-22.

Acts 9:15 "But the Lord said unto him, "So thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:"

Paul was chosen by God for a very special purpose.

Romans 9:3 "For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:"

We will learn in the eleventh chapter that Paul was from the tribe of Benjamin, and being from that tribe, Paul is saying that if it were possible he would separate himself from Christ if it would bring his kinsmen to Christ. That is not possible though, for the only price that can be paid was paid by Jesus on the cross.

Romans 9:4 "Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;"

The "adoption" is the "sonship" of God, being called the "sons of God". Paul is saying that it was through the twelve patriarchs, the sons of Jacob, whose name was changed to Israel, that God chose these people that Christ would come into this world in the flesh, and be born of woman [the virgin Mary].

The families of the twelve sons of Israel grew into twelve separate tribes, and combined became known as the "whole house of Israel" while in slavery in Egypt. They remained one nation through the wanderings in the wilderness, and through the time of the judges. Then about a thousand years before Christ, this nation cried out to God for a king like the rest of the nations around them had, and God gave them a monarchy. Saul was the first king over Israel, followed by David and his son Solomon.

At the death of king Solomon, the nation of Israel split in two, and these two new nations became known as "Houses". The two "houses" were then named the "House of Israel" which comprised the ten nations to the north, and the "House of Judah" which was made up of the two tribes of Judah and Benjamin, with the tribe of Levi scattered amongst all the tribes. The Levites were the priestly tribe and were to be God's ministers to all the tribes.

About 745 B.C. to 722 B.C. the northern nation, "the House of Israel", made up of ten tribes were over run by the Assyrians, and the Assyrians pack them off to an area just north of Lake Van in Iraq. Shortly after this resettling, the House of Israel fragmented, and migrated through the Caucasus mountains, and moved to become settlements in Europe and the Americas. These people of the House of Israel lost their identity as being Israelites, and became known by the event of their migrations through the Caucasus mountains, and were called "Caucasians".

In the Book of Hosea, this prophet lived the prophecy of God telling this House of Israel exactly what was going to happen to them, and as this Romans 9 continues, we will see Paul's references to Hosea, and His prophesies.

The House of Judah, the tribes of Judah and Benjamin, with a mixture of Levites did not lose their identity, and to this day they are know as "Jews", which is only a small part of the "whole House of Israel". In Ezekiel 37:15-28 we read where God will combine these two houses again in the Millennium age, and they will live again as one nation.

It is important that you become aware of the split and that now there are two separate houses, for the one house is referred to as "the Lost House of Israel", and the other are called the Jews. The Jews of today are made up of the tribes of Judah, and Benjamin, along with the few families of Levites, but there is a heavy mixture of Kenites that became a part of this house of Judah. These Levites took over the duties of the scribes and priests coming out of the Babylon captivity, and to this day the Kenites are a controlling factor over the House of Judah.

Romans 9:5 "Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen."

The "fathers" are the "patriarchs" or the twelve sons of Israel, including Joseph whose two sons Ephraim and Manasseh both became separate tribes and adopted by Israel. All of these patriarchs had fallen short of God laws, and it was Christ that came from them, and in Christ all the tribes will be blessed forever.

You can see the compassion of Paul within this message for his brethren, but at the same time we will see that it would not be possible for Paul to make that sacrifice.

Romans 9:6 "Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:"

Just because all of Israel does not accept the sacrifice that Christ gave them when He went to the cross, God did not fail them.

This is also requiring an understanding of Abraham's seed or children. After Sarah died, Abraham married another woman. Genesis 25:1 "Then again Abraham took a wife, and her name was Keturah. The promises of God to Abraham and Sarah went only to Isaac the only son of Sarah, and not to any of the other sons of Abraham.

Genesis 25:2 "And she [Keturah] bare him Zimran, and Jokshan, and Medan, and Midian, and Ishbak, and Shuah."

Abraham also had sons by the concubines which he had, and in all, Abraham had twelve more sons besides Isaac and Ishmael. These other sons were also patriarchs in Arabic nations, as well as other nations. So we see that all that are of Abraham are not necessarily of Israel, for Israel is only in reference to the sons of Jacob, who carried the blessing of the Abrahamic Covenant.

Paul is saying that these Israelites are the children of promise, and the real promise was Christ, and that Christ would be would be born of a virgin who would come from the tribes of Judah and Levi. It was that promise [Jesus Christ] that brought the grace that we now have.

romans9
 
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Copperhead

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CH, you avoided my question: Who were the people conquered by Assyria in 720 BC?

It’s an unfortunate fact that most people – Christian and secular, believe that the Jews in the land of Israel and abroad have already rejoined with the 10 lost tribes - OR the 10 tribes are lost permanently, absorbed into the nations.

Certainly, at the time of the Assyrian conquest and captivity of the 10 tribes, many escaped to Judah. These people practised Judaism and became Jews. Note that 200,000 people from Judah were also taken into exile at that time according to Assyrian records.

Also note that some modern Jewish scholars admit that the 10 tribes are still in the world. In 1948, David Ben Gurion, was intending to declare the country of the Jews, to be the State of Judah. At the last moment he named the new country “Israel”.

Speculation as to the identity of the House of Israel has used up a lot of paper and ink, but most make the mistake of thinking that because some people groups have certain Jewish traditions, then they must be a lost tribe. It may be that they are Jews, or have been influenced by Judaism.

The Bible says that Israel would lose its language and identity and be scattered to the ends of the earth. But; Judah will be an object of derision and horror in the world. Jeremiah 29:18 This prophecy has certainly come true!

1 Kings 12:24 The Lord says- the split between Israel and Judah is My doing.

Zechariah 11:14 The Brotherhood annulled between Israel and Judah.

2 Chronicles 10:19 From that day to this, Israel is in rebellion against Judah.

Ezekiel 11:1-12 Ezekiel is talking to the leaders of Judah, delivering judgement on them for not keeping the laws of the Lord.

Ezekiel 11:13-17…. all the Israelites who are left? They are your brothers and kinsmen, this whole people of Israel, to whom the inhabitants now in Jerusalem have said, “They are separated far from the Lord; the land has been made over to us to possess”. Say, therefore.... When I sent them far away among the nations and dispersed them over the earth... I became their sanctuary.... Say, therefore..... I shall gather you from among the nations..... I shall give the land of Israel to you.

Zephaniah10:6-12 Triumph to Judah, Victory to Joseph... as though I had never cast them off. Ephraim like warriors.... rejoice in the Lord. I shall whistle to call them in. In far off lands, they will remember Me....Their enemies destroyed.... resettled back in Lebanon and Gilead.
This clearly describes the Psalm 83 event, then His people are gathered into the Land.

It is no wonder that so many ignore prophecy, as when they think that Israel and Judah are a single entity, only confusion results.
So, the prophecies to Judah, Jerusalem and the Jews pertain to the House of Judah.

The House of Israel, led by Ephraim (Joseph), has many prophecies telling of their blessings and final rejoining with Judah in the land. Each House has tasks appointed to it for the present days: Judah, the visible entity and Israel the Christian peoples.

Yep. Probably did avoid a question or two of yours. Probably because you have avoided some of my assertions also. We will not agree. Doesn't cause me to lose one minute of sleep at night that we are not in lock step on this. You have developed your opinion over time and feel confident in it. Likewise with me. And I would be willing to bet, that neither of us really has a lock on the truth about it. It would be the height of arrogance to assume either of us has. Doesn't matter. No sale.