(Non-trinitarian) Who is Jesus?

[atpollard]

I don't doubt Jesus. I doubt the trinitarian idolatry of a man, the imposing trinitarian doctrine onto unitarian text.

Good for you!

I wanted to ask a question without further derailing the Sola Scriptura topic, so I moved your comment here. First a confession, I am a “three point Trinitarian” (a small joke there) that does not completely understand the mystery of ONE GOD in Father-Son-Spirit, but still acknowledges that there is a “preponderance of evidence” within the Holy Bible to convince me that this mystery is, nonetheless TRUE.

Your rejection of Trinitarianism does not directly bother me (unlike some that take a strong line and seem ready to relight the fires of burning heretics over the issue). However, it does cause me to wonder about one question that seems central to the salvation of every Christian:

Matthew 16:13-15 [NKJV]

When Jesus came into the region of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, saying, "Who do men say that I, the Son of Man, am?"

So they said, "Some say John the Baptist, some Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets."

He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?"​

 

[Randy Kluth]

Well yea, in the development of Trinitarianism it began with Christology, the evidence and proof that Jesus was divine. It came to a head with the Council of Nicaea, at which doctrinal orthodoxy was established, countering the Arian claim that Christ was not fully God. It was natural, following that, to establish not just the separate personages of Christ and the Father, but also the separate personage of the Holy Spirit. They were all viewed as divine, and yet able to interrelate with one another as separate persons. Three Persons with one Divine Substance.

It is a big deal because without the Deity of Christ, there is no real basis for redemption and reconciliation with God, and no participation, by us, in the divine nature. Jesus' Deity is essential if we are to both receive from him spiritual renewal and imitate what he alone was able to do as a man, setting the ideal for our conformity with God.

 

[GISMYS_7]

YES!!Jesus IS God!!
Yes!!! Jesus gave up a lot of power and glory to live and die as a man and paying our sin debt on that Roman cross!
Philippians 2:6-8 Jesus==
6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God,
7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men.
8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.
Matthew 1:23

- Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel, which is translated, "" God "" with us.

Yes!!! Jesus IS God!!! Philippians 2:6

Christ Jesus,
who, although He existed in the form of "" God "" , did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant,
and being made in the likeness of men.
8
Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
At the name of Jesus

EVERY KNEE WILL BOW,
of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is "" Lord "" , to the glory of God the Father.
Isaiah 9:6

- For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, "" Mighty God "" .
, "" Everlasting Father, "" Prince of Peace.
John 8:58
- Then Jesus said to them, Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, "" I AM ""
John 10:30-33
- Jesus answered them,
"" I and My Father are one. ""

Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me? The Jews answered Him, saying, For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself "" God. "" ===Pharisees knew Jesus was saying He is "" God ""
John 20:28
- And Thomas answered and said to Him, My "" Lord and my God ""
Revelation 22:13
- "" I AM the Alpha and the Omega, "" the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last ....
22:16
- I, Jesus, have sent "" My angel "" to testify to you these things in the churches.===Who but God has angles??
God's Word tells us who and what Jesus IS 500 years before Jesus came to earth.

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a ""son"" is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, ""The mighty God"", ""everlasting Father,"" ""The Prince of Peace.""
The One True Almighty God IS Father, Son, and Holy Spirit= the One True Almighty God.

 

[DPMartin]

Good for you!

First a confession, I am a “three point Trinitarian” (a small joke there) that does not completely understand the mystery of ONE GOD in Father-Son-Spirit, but still acknowledges that there is a “preponderance of evidence” within the Holy Bible to convince me that this mystery is, nonetheless TRUE.

this may hepl on that

i was raised catholic and believe the three are one and understand that this theology is a result of a catholic priest way back and was adopted by the church as an official catholic doctrine but i haven't seen nor heard one catholic explain how it is so.

the first three verses of the bible:

here there is God:
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

here there is God's Presence (Jesus says God is a Spirit):
Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

here God speaks therefore God's Word that John says was made flesh in Jesus and is the Son of the Spirit who is God, because Jesus is of God.
Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

words are begotten of a living spirit.

also all three of these are God to anything not God. also note that God doesn't speak to His creation until His Presence is with His creation.

you are you your presence is you and your word spoken in your presence is you to anyone not you.


then we go to the God of Abraham, who is the father (of the faith by some)

Isaac, the beloved son who was offered

and Jacob, who was renamed Israel who had twelve of which the children of Israel are. hence Jacob representing Holy Spirit of which the born again are born of hence children of.

how the Spirit who is the Almighty God executes His Presence in the earth while in Heaven is shown in Abraham Isaac and Jacob. i do believe there is a statement in scripture where heaven and earth become one.


when reading the gospels one need only pay attention to Jesus speaking of the Son of man in a third person sense where as He doesn't do so in relationship to His Father who is in Heaven. Jesus makes a distinction between the two titles. Son of man and Son of God.

Jesus also states that He is in the Father and the Father in Him while He is in the flesh.


here's one for ya:
Joh_3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Jesus says that knowing He is from Heaven:
Joh_6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.


but the Son of man is in Heaven because heaven is within Him because the Father who Jesus continue to state, is in Heaven, is in Him.

it can seem hard but its not, you just have to contemplate it until it sinks in.

 

[Wrangler]

It is a big deal because without the Deity of Christ, there is no real basis for redemption and reconciliation with God

Completely disagree! The theological importance of Jesus NOT being God cannot be overstated. That Jesus is NOT 'them' (God) but 'us' (man) is proof that our inheritance is real. If God were to 'take the form' of a man to appear to die on a cross, then his 'resurrection' would not be that impressive GIVEN that God can do anything.

However, knowing that a man was resurrected into a glorified body roots our hope in truth that he is the first born - of others to follow like him, a man. We have every reason to believe that we will be adopted (chosen or selected) by God, just as Jesus was. Universal restoration is the heart of the Good News.

The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
Colossians 1:15

32 We are here to bring you the good news of God’s promise to our ancestors, 33 which He has now fulfilled for our children by raising Jesus. Consider the promises fulfilled in Jesus. The psalmist says, “You are My Son; today I have become Your Father.”
Acts 13:32-33 (NOTE: AFTER Jesus submitted his will to God to the point of death was the day he was considered by God to be His Son)

18 God was at work in all this, fulfilling what He had predicted through all the prophets—that the Anointed One would suffer. 19 So now you need to rethink everything and turn to God so your sins will be forgiven and a new day can dawn, days of refreshing times flowing from the Lord. 20 Then God may send Jesus the Anointed, whom God has chosen for you. 21 He is in heaven now and must remain there until the day of universal restoration comes—the restoration which in ancient times God announced through the holy prophets. 22 Moses, for example, said, “The Eternal One your God will raise up from among your people a prophet who will be like me. You must listen to Him.
Acts 3:18-22 (Voice)


31 He has fixed a day of accountability, when the whole world will be justly evaluated by a new, higher standard: not by a statue, but by a living man. God selected this man and made Him credible to all by raising Him from the dead.
Acts 17:31

 

[Wrangler]

YES!!Jesus IS God!!

I guess you did not see this thread is non-trinitarian.

 

[GISMYS_7]

I guess you did not see this thread is non-trinitarian.

Learn who Jesus was, IS and is for all eternity IS====Jesus IS==Colossians 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Colossians 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Colossians 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Colossians 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

 

[Wrangler]

Learn who Jesus was

I know who Jesus is - and who he is not. Jesus is the Son of God, which necessarily makes him NOT God.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Completely disagree! The theological importance of Jesus NOT being God cannot be overstated. That Jesus is NOT 'them' (God) but 'us' (man) is proof that our inheritance is real. If God were to 'take the form' of a man to appear to die on a cross, then his 'resurrection' would not be that impressive GIVEN that God can do anything.

That may have been if it was true. But it isn't. It's not even true to life. Man *cannot* obtain eternal life as an inheritance without the help of God, because man, generically, was for all time prohibited from the tree of life by a single sin--a sin that contaminated the entire human race, save Jesus.

The only thing that makes Jesus unique as a man is his sinless nature, which we have no access to and no atonement for apart from Jesus human acts as Deity. As Deity he was able to circumvent human sin, and as Deity he was able to forgive us. A fallen man cannot forgive other fallen men, with respect to receiving eternal life from God.

Your logic is flawed, if you have any hope at all to base your truth on the Scriptures. If you don't base your beliefs on the Scriptures, but pick and choose what you want to believe, then you're on your own.

However, knowing that a man was resurrected into a glorified body roots our hope in truth that he is the first born - of others to follow like him, a man. We have every reason to believe that we will be adopted (chosen or selected) by God, just as Jesus was. Universal restoration is the heart of the Good News.

Since not all men accept God's means of redemption, the atonement of Christ, not all will be restored. Universal Restoration is a figment of your imagination. It's not true in the real world, where people do not always repent.

Furthermore, the redemption which we must appeal to is Christ's atonement, which has zero meaning if he isn't God forgiving us through the agency of human flesh. Jesus cannot forgive us *for God.* Rather, he must *be God* in order for us to receive God's forgiveness.

 

[Wrangler]

That may have been if it was true. But it isn't. It's not even true to life. Man *cannot* obtain eternal life as an inheritance without the help of God, because man, generically, was for all time prohibited from the tree of life by a single sin--a sin that contaminated the entire human race, save Jesus.

You completely misunderstood what I wrote. You do not even understand what the Good News is.

 

[Wrangler]

The only thing that makes Jesus unique as a man is his sinless nature

No Scriptural support whatsoever! What makes Jesus unique is that God selected him to put his words in his mouth as he said he'd do in Deuteronomy 18:15-18, suffering servant, take on all the sins if the world, then be GIVEN all authority by God.

 

[Wrangler]

Since not all men accept God's means of redemption, the atonement of Christ, not all will be restored. Universal Restoration is a figment of your imagination.

I quoted Scripture. You are pontificating your opinion.

 

[Wrangler]

Furthermore, the redemption which we must appeal to is Christ's atonement, which has zero meaning if he isn't God forgiving us through the agency of human flesh.

Untrue. God delegated forgiveness of sins to Jesus, who in turn delegated it to the Apostles.

 

[Wrangler]

Jesus cannot forgive us *for God.*

He sure can. This is a God given power Jesus explained after the resurrection.

 

[GISMYS_7]

He sure can. This is a God given power Jesus explained after the resurrection.

Jesus IS a JEW as was Mary and almost all the inspired writers of the new testament were Jews!!

 

[Randy Kluth]

You completely misunderstood what I wrote. You do not even understand what the Good News is.

I'm not surprised. It is completely misrepresentative of NT Christianity and the biblical depiction of it.

 

[Randy Kluth]

No Scriptural support whatsoever! What makes Jesus unique is that God selected him to put his words in his mouth as he said he'd do in Deuteronomy 18:15-18, suffering servant, take on all the sins if the world, then be GIVEN all authority by God.

Jesus' atonement required that he be without defect. This is biblical.

2 Cor 5.21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

 

[Randy Kluth]

I quoted Scripture. You are pontificating your opinion.

No, the Bible teaches eternal punishment for the wicked, for rebels who are unrepentant.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Untrue. God delegated forgiveness of sins to Jesus, who in turn delegated it to the Apostles.

Delegated forgiveness isn't real forgiveness. I can't bring you forgiveness for what you've done to someone else. However, God can forgive you for everything you've done, because anything you do wrong is done against Him. So He alone can forgive all your sin.

 

[Randy Kluth]

He sure can. This is a God given power Jesus explained after the resurrection.

Again, Jesus could not forgive *for God,* but only *as God.* You have no understanding of biblical forgiveness. Only God can forgive all sin, and open the doors to eternal life. Anything man forgives can only forgive what is done to that man. But as God, Jesus could die for all mankind.