Non-Trinitarians, Please Answer This

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Hidden In Him

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I'm having trouble finding out what the non-Trinitarian position is to this question, so I thought I would ask the non-Trinitarians on this forum (I know we have a bunch here):

Scripture says that Jesus and the Father share the same throne in Heaven (Revelation 22:1, 3). If so, how could this infer anything else but that Jesus is God if He is seated together with Him on the same throne? Will not the inhabitants of Heaven worship Him like they do the Father if He is seated on the throne of Almighty God?

Revelation chapter 22 states, “And he showed me a river of water of life, bright as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb...No longer will there be anything accursed, but the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and His servants will serve Him.” The Greek here reads, “του θρονου του θεου και του αρνιου (the throne of God and of the Lamb)”; two different Persons but only one throne, since “του θρονου” is singular in number.

Thank you for your answers in advance, and God bless
Hidden In Him
 
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amadeus

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@Hidden In Him

How many more than 3 are to be one in Jesus as well as in His Father as per the following prayer?

"Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
John 17:20-23

If then there are to be more than three, would not the final result be a Multiplicity in the Godhead?

Is not Jesus a righteous man? Do not his prayers avail much? Are we not to be like him?

"Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much." James 5:16

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." I John 3:2
 
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Hidden In Him

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@Hidden In Him

How many more than 3 are to be one in Jesus as well as in His Father as per the following prayer?

"Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
John 17:20-23

If then there are to be more than three, would not the final result be a Multiplicity in the Godhead?

If not Jesus a righteous man. Do not his prayers avail much? Are we not to be like him?

"Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much." James 5:16

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." I John 3:2

Hi, John. :)

Listen, don't take offense, but I'm really only looking for an answer to the specific question posed in the OP rather than another lengthy debate on the Trinity. We've had a ton of those already, and they just go round and round.

But I noticed Tigger 2 is on, and I tagged him for this thread. He's the best of the non-Trinitarian debaters IMO, so I'll see what he (and maybe others) have to say about the passage in question.

God bless, and I appreciate the response anyway : )
- H
 
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tigger 2

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I'm having trouble finding out what the non-Trinitarian position is to this question, so I thought I would ask the non-Trinitarians on this forum (I know we have a bunch here):

Scripture says that Jesus and the Father share the same throne in Heaven (Revelation 22:1, 3). If so, how could this infer anything else but that Jesus is God if He is seated together with Him on the same throne? Will not the inhabitants of Heaven worship Him like they do the Father if He is seated on the throne of Almighty God?

Revelation chapter 22 states, “And he showed me a river of water of life, bright as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb...No longer will there be anything accursed, but the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and His servants will serve Him.” The Greek here reads, “του θρονου του θεου και του αρνιου (the throne of God and of the Lamb)”; two different Persons but only one throne, since “του θρονου” is singular in number.

Thank you for your answers in advance, and God bless
Hidden In Him
.....................................
Rev. 3:21
 

Hidden In Him

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.....................................
Rev. 3:21

Hello, Tigger. I was expecting you, and thank you for the reply.

This is a rather non-explanatory response, however. If you could, please provide me with how you are relating Revelation 3:21 to Revelation 22:1 and Revelation 22:3.

God bless,
- H
 
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stunnedbygrace

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I'm having trouble finding out what the non-Trinitarian position is to this question, so I thought I would ask the non-Trinitarians on this forum (I know we have a bunch here):

Scripture says that Jesus and the Father share the same throne in Heaven (Revelation 22:1, 3). If so, how could this infer anything else but that Jesus is God if He is seated together with Him on the same throne? Will not the inhabitants of Heaven worship Him like they do the Father if He is seated on the throne of Almighty God?

Revelation chapter 22 states, “And he showed me a river of water of life, bright as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb...No longer will there be anything accursed, but the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and His servants will serve Him.” The Greek here reads, “του θρονου του θεου και του αρνιου (the throne of God and of the Lamb)”; two different Persons but only one throne, since “του θρονου” is singular in number.

Thank you for your answers in advance, and God bless
Hidden In Him

Im confused. I’m a nontrinitarian, but…well…that Jesus and God are both on the throne doesn’t need a trinity view. At most it needs a binity view.
 
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Hidden In Him

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Im confused. I’m a nontrinitarian, but…well…that Jesus and God are both on the throne doesn’t need a trinity view. At most it needs a binity view.

Then let me rephrase the question for a non-Binarian : ) The only thing that would really change is the lead sentence:

I'm having trouble finding out what the non-Trinitarian/non-Binarian position is to this question, so I thought I would ask those of both groups on this forum (since I know we have several here):

Scripture says that Jesus and the Father share the same throne in Heaven (Revelation 22:1, 3). If so, how could this infer anything else but that Jesus is God if He is seated together with Him on the same throne? Will not the inhabitants of Heaven worship Him like they do the Father if He is seated on the throne of Almighty God?

Revelation chapter 22 states, “And he showed me a river of water of life, bright as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb...No longer will there be anything accursed, but the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and His servants will serve Him.” The Greek here reads, “του θρονου του θεου και του αρνιου (the throne of God and of the Lamb)”; two different Persons but only one throne, since “του θρονου” is singular in number.


Thank you for your answers in advance, and God bless
Hidden In Him
 

APAK

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@Hidden In Him are you really wanting to be so simplistic and presumptuous in your conclusion? I hope you do not really think these verses (1 and 3) in Rev 22 indicates another forced and contrived 'Jesus is God' conclusion? It does not of course.

Well there is a number of ways to address it, biblically...I have a few notes already archived...

In these two verses God is distinguished from the Lamb. Whoever God is, He is not the Lamb. The Lamb is not God, and God is not the Lamb. The Lamb was slain and raised. God is not slain and raised.

The Lamb shares the throne of God because God has granted this to the Lamb: “he shall rule…even as I myself have received power from my Father (Rev. 2:27, 3:21, cf. Matt. 28:18). As a parallel, the LORD God put both David and Solomon on His (God’s) throne. “Then Solomon sat on the throne of the LORD as king in place of David his father” (1 Chron. 29:23). But neither David nor Solomon were God just because they were granted by God to rule as God’s representatives on God’s throne. As God’s chosen, anointed kings, David and Solomon were granted to sit on God’s throne. So is the risen Jesus Christ.

It is clear from the Book of Revelation that Jesus Christ, the Lamb who was slain but who now lives, the firstborn from the dead, the beginning of God’s creation, is not God.

The throne of God is a symbol of His authority; His right to rule. The Lamb shares authority with God, his Father in the new Kingdom.

Immediately I was in the Spirit;
and behold, a throne was standing in heaven,
and One sitting on the throne
” (Rev 4:2)

It is called “the throne of God” (Rev 7:15) and “the throne of God and of the Lamb” (Rev 22:3), for Jesus said, “I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne” (Rev 3:21).

The word “throne” appears in 35 verses in Revelation, of which 32 refers to the throne of God (Rev 4:2-3, 9-10; 5:1, 7, 13; 6:16; 7:9-10, 15; 19:4; 21:5):

His throne is IN the temple (Rev 16:17), which is in heaven (Rev 11:19). But, after sin and its consequences have been eradicated from the universe, the throne of God will be in the New Jerusalem (Rev 22:3).

Jesus sat down on His Father’s throne (Rev 3:21; 15:5). He is in the center of the throne (Rev 7:17; 5:6). The throne is therefore called the throne of both God and of the Lamb (Rev 22:1).

There is no biblical proof that Jesus = God (actually the Father) HIH...
 
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stunnedbygrace

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Then let me rephrase the question for a non-Binarian : ) The only thing that would really change is the lead sentence:

I'm having trouble finding out what the non-Trinitarian/non-Binarian position is to this question, so I thought I would ask those of both groups on this forum (since I know we have several here):

Scripture says that Jesus and the Father share the same throne in Heaven (Revelation 22:1, 3). If so, how could this infer anything else but that Jesus is God if He is seated together with Him on the same throne? Will not the inhabitants of Heaven worship Him like they do the Father if He is seated on the throne of Almighty God?

Revelation chapter 22 states, “And he showed me a river of water of life, bright as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb...No longer will there be anything accursed, but the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and His servants will serve Him.” The Greek here reads, “του θρονου του θεου και του αρνιου (the throne of God and of the Lamb)”; two different Persons but only one throne, since “του θρονου” is singular in number.


Thank you for your answers in advance, and God bless
Hidden In Him

Okay so don’t be grumpy with me but you might have another problem. I’m thinking ahead to what verses a nontrinitarian or nonbinarian might bring up and am guessing one might be: Those who are victorious will sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat with my Father on his throne.
They would most likely say something like…should humans then be worshiped because some of them will sit on His throne too? Just guessing ahead.
 
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Hidden In Him

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As a parallel, the LORD God put both David and Solomon on His (God’s) throne. “Then Solomon sat on the throne of the LORD as king in place of David his father” (1 Chron. 29:23).

By this you are arguing that God has placed King David on His throne - the throne of Almighty God - in Heaven? That is what the passage in Revelation 22 is discussing.
In these two verses God is distinguished from the Lamb. Whoever God is, He is not the Lamb. The Lamb is not God, and God is not the Lamb. The Lamb was slain and raised. God is not slain and raised.

The Lamb shares the throne of God because God has granted this to the Lamb: “he shall rule…even as I myself have received power from my Father (Rev. 2:27, 3:21, cf. Matt. 28:18).

It is clear from the Book of Revelation that Jesus Christ, the Lamb who was slain but who now lives, the firstborn from the dead, the beginning of God’s creation, is not God.

The throne of God is a symbol of His authority; His right to rule. The Lamb shares authority with God, his Father in the new Kingdom.

Immediately I was in the Spirit;
and behold, a throne was standing in heaven,
and One sitting on the throne
” (Rev 4:2)

It is called “the throne of God” (Rev 7:15) and “the throne of God and of the Lamb” (Rev 22:3), for Jesus said, “I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne” (Rev 3:21).

The word “throne” appears in 35 verses in Revelation, of which 32 refers to the throne of God (Rev 4:2-3, 9-10; 5:1, 7, 13; 6:16; 7:9-10, 15; 19:4; 21:5):

His throne is IN the temple (Rev 16:17), which is in heaven (Rev 11:19). But, after sin and its consequences have been eradicated from the universe, the throne of God will be in the New Jerusalem (Rev 22:3).

Jesus sat down on His Father’s throne (Rev 3:21; 15:5). He is in the center of the throne (Rev 7:17; 5:6). The throne is therefore called the throne of both God and of the Lamb (Rev 22:1).

As for the rest of your response, APAK, it kinda reads like a combination of supposition and double talk, and I'm just being honest here. I realize you probably copied and pasted, but as a response to my OP you are repeating the supposition several times that the Lamb is not God, and then coupling it with admissions that the Lamb sits on the throne of the Father.

I don't find much substance to your argument.
 

Hidden In Him

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Okay so don’t be grumpy with me but you might have another problem. I’m thinking ahead to what verses a nontrinitarian or nonbinarian might bring up and am guessing one might be: Those who are victorious will sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat with my Father on his throne.

This is drifting in the same direction as Amadeus was going in, and I'd like to address it as it's very interesting to discuss theologically and spiritually, and by that I mean Very interesting, especially from the Charismatic point of view. But it would be too far afield from what I'm trying to focus on in this thread.

I just wanna know what the response is to the particular passage in question, but maybe sometime else : )
 

APAK

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By this you are arguing that God has placed King David on His throne - the throne of Almighty God - in Heaven? That is what the passage in Revelation 22 is discussing.


As for the rest of your response, APAK, it kinda reads like a combination of supposition and double talk, and I'm just being honest here. I realize you probably copied and pasted, but as a response to my OP you are repeating the supposition several times that the Lamb is not God, and then coupling it with admissions that the Lamb sits on the throne of the Father.

I don't find much substance to your argument.
Cow manure HIH!

Well what do you expect as a good answer for your needs, non-scripture substance and data? Give me your take on the 'shared throne' in the New Jerusalem, Chapter and verse. I doubt seriously you are capable of reciprocating in kind.
 

Hidden In Him

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Cow manure HIH!

Well what do you expect as a good answer for your needs, non-scripture substance and data? Give me your take on the 'shared throne' in the New Jerusalem, Chapter and verse. I doubt seriously you are capable of reciprocating in kind.

Ok, look. You're getting too emotional. I'm just looking for answers to the question posed in the OP.

Mellow out if you want responses. I'm not looking for histrionics. I just wanna know what the non-Trinitarian/non-Binarian answer is to the question posed in the OP.
 

tigger 2

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The Throne of God and of the Lamb”

“Then he showed me the river of the water of life, bright as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb.” - Rev. 22:1, RSV.

Some trinitarians claim that if there is only one throne that God and the Lamb share, then they both must be God.

First, let’s look at some scriptures where “throne” is used:

(1) “Let the king and his throne be guiltless” - 2 Sam. 14:9, RSV.

(2) “Do not swear at all: either by heaven, for it is God’s throne ....” - Is. 66:1; Mt 5:34; 23:22.

(3) “Blessed be Jehovah thy God, who delighted in thee, to set thee on his throne.” - 2 Chronicles 9:8, ASV.

(4) “Then Solomon sat on the throne of Jehovah as king instead of David his father.” - 1 Chron. 29:23, ASV.

5 He [Jesus] will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord will give him the throne of his father David ... his kingdom will never end.” - Luke 1:32.


(6) “[Jesus] sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.” - Heb. 12:2, NASB.

(7) “To him who overcomes, I [Jesus] will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne.” - Rev. 3:21, NIV.

(8) “Round the throne [of God] were twenty-four thrones, and seated on the thrones were 24 elders...with golden crowns upon their heads.” - Rev. 4:4, RSV.

(“The 24 elders on their thrones....represent...the heads of the 12 tribes together with the 12 apostles.” - The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology, p. 615, v. 2; also, see New Oxford Annotated Bible [1977 ed.] f.n. for Rev. 4:4.) - cf. Rev. 20:4, 6.

* * * * * * * * * * *

Scriptures (1) and (2) quoted above show some of the Bible’s figurative meanings for the word “throne.” The first, of course, shows that “throne” can stand for the rule or authority of a person. The second shows “throne” may include the entire location (room, building, city, territory, etc.) where that government is stationed.

Scriptures (3) and (4) show that the “throne” or authority of a much higher ruler can be delegated to another, much inferior ruler. Even King David (and Solomon) was said to be sitting on God’s throne. That is, he wielded the authority over God’s people on earth as a representative for God. So it was the throne of God and of David and of Solomon.

Scripture (5) shows that Jesus, like David, sat “on the throne of Jehovah.”

Scripture (6) shows that when Jesus assumed David’s God-given authority (or throne) over God’s people, he “sat at the right hand of the Throne of God.” Cf. Ps 110:1 where Jesus is to sit at the right hand of Jehovah. A footnote in the trinitarian The NIV Study Bible for Ps. 110:1 tells us:

right hand.... thus he [Christ] is made second in authority to God himself. NT references to Jesus’ exaltation to this position are many (see...Mark 16:19;...Acts 2:33-36;...Heb 10:12-13).” Compare the NIVSB footnote for Mark 16:19 - “right hand of God. A position of authority second only to God’s.” - The NIV Study Bible, Zondervan, 1985.

Scriptures (7) and (8) similarly show that Jesus’ sitting on his own (subordinate) throne (Rev. 3:21) can be figuratively described as sitting “down with my Father on his throne” (who, in effect, shares some of his authority with Christ). The same description then applies to the Apostles who “sit with me on my throne” (Rev. 3:21) which can also be described as sitting upon their own separate thrones around the throne of God (Rev. 4:4) because the Christ shares some of his God-given authority with them. (See The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology, Vol. 3, p. 588.)

As in certain other “trinitarian” interpretations the separate consideration of God and Christ proves in itself that Christ is not God. (It might have been worth considering, at least, if it said “the throne of the Father and of the Lamb.”)

Obviously, we wouldn’t give a thought to the “Godhood” of David and Solomon if we saw a reference to “the throne of God and David and Solomon” - cf. scriptures (3) and (4) above! We are speaking of only one throne (perhaps), but there is certainly no reason to think that one throne unites all three mentioned who had the authority symbolized by that throne!

And the fact that God is mentioned as one person (and David and Solomon as others) precludes any possibility of honest error. For example, even when we add the testimony of the scripture which says that all the assembly bowed down and worshiped [”shachah”] Jehovah and King David (1 Chron. 29:20 - see the WORSHIP study), we still wouldn’t reason that David was Jehovah! The fact that they are so clearly represented as two separate individuals compels us to find some other solution to the problem of what seems to be “equal worship” (unless, of course, you already have an unshakable tradition or mindset that David is Jehovah). So why should we accept such reasoning for Rev. 22:1?
 

APAK

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Ok, look. You're getting too emotional. I'm just looking for answers to the question posed in the OP.

Mellow out if you want responses. I'm not looking for histrionics. I just wanna know what the non-Trinitarian/non-Binarian answer is to the question posed in the OP.
Stop your whining again. I answered you spot on, and directly. You just do not like the answer. Live with it and maybe listen to some people for a change that might know a little more that you, and learn something about Jesus and his Father!
 

Hidden In Him

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Scriptures (1) and (2) quoted above show some of the Bible’s figurative meanings for the word “throne.”

Ok, I enjoyed your scriptures but right here is where we are already in disagreement.

None of the passages you quoted talk about a throne figuratively. All are either talking about the throne of David in Jerusalem or the throne of God in Heaven, both of which should be understood as not spiritual but literal IMO. You appear to be making your argument by extension after this, but I think your premise is flawed from the outset. The question is not simply about "authority" but about a throne; a single throne shared by Two Separate Beings, which suggests that either both are worshipped as God or neither are.

But thank you for the response. I sincerely did not know what the answer was to this passage, so any help I can get is appreciated.

I haven't yet read the rest of the response yet, so maybe there is something else there. Just pointing out where we disagree on the premise.
God bless,
- H
 

atpollard

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Hello, Tigger. I was expecting you, and thank you for the reply.

This is a rather non-explanatory response, however. If you could, please provide me with how you are relating Revelation 3:21 to Revelation 22:1 and Revelation 22:3.

God bless,
- H
“He that overcometh, I will give to him to sit down with me in my throne, as I also overcame, and sat down with my Father in his throne.”​

According to Revelation 3:21 (referenced by Tigger and quoted above), there will be other people (all who overcome) seated in that same throne … does that make all of them part of an expanded GODHEAD? That is how a non-Trinitarian (like Tigger) might respond to Revelation 22:1-3. Revelation 3:21 tells us that people sit with God in that throne.

***

As a Trinitarian, I read the same verses and see exactly the opposite. To me, all of the verses affirm that we are “more than sons” and the relationship that Christ has purchased for God’s Sheep (which demonstrates the depth of the Father’s love for us) draws us not merely into restored presence, but into inseparable unity (Romans 8:38-39) comparable to nothing except Adam and Eve being create from the same being by the hand of God. That is how inseparable God desires to be with His creation … the point of the incarnation (God became man so that men could be eternally united with God).
 

Hidden In Him

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“He that overcometh, I will give to him to sit down with me in my throne, as I also overcame, and sat down with my Father in his throne.”
According to Revelation 3:21 (referenced by Tigger and quoted above), there will be other people (all who overcome) seated in that same throne … does that make all of them part of an expanded GODHEAD? That is how the “non-Trinitarian (Tigger) responded to Revelation 22:1-3. Revelation 3:21 tells us that people sit with God in that throne.


My answer is Yes, since as His body the theology of the early church was that we are indeed in Christ Jesus, which is either mere poetic language or a spiritual reality, and cannot be both. But I was trying to avoid that part of the discussion since it changes the direction of the thread, and raises a more complex theological question.
 

APAK

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@Hidden In Him so this is where you intended to go in the first place? that was not addressed in your OP..

As you said 'The question is not simply about "authority" but about a throne; a single throne shared by Two Separate Beings, which suggests that either both are worshipped as God or neither are...'

And so you are presenting a binary statement or as a premise, either both or neither...are worshiped. In an attempt to carve your way back into your expected conclusion that Jesus = God. Amusing to say the least.

Do you want an answer or do have a view on the subject of worship?
 

Hidden In Him

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@Hidden In Him so this is where you intended to go in the first place? that was not addressed in your OP..


I assumed the entire community knew I'm Trinitarian, including yourself since we've had discussions on this before. So I assumed it was understood the OP was directed at non-Trinitarians by a Trinitarian hoping to get their answers to the specific question posed.