Non-Trinitarians, Please Answer This

[Matthias]

I'm having trouble finding out what the non-Trinitarian position is to this question, so I thought I would ask the non-Trinitarians on this forum (I know we have a bunch here):

Scripture says that Jesus and the Father share the same throne in Heaven (Revelation 22:1, 3). If so, how could this infer anything else but that Jesus is God if He is seated together with Him on the same throne? Will not the inhabitants of Heaven worship Him like they do the Father if He is seated on the throne of Almighty God?

Revelation chapter 22 states, “And he showed me a river of water of life, bright as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb...No longer will there be anything accursed, but the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and His servants will serve Him.” The Greek here reads, “του θρονου του θεου και του αρνιου (the throne of God and of the Lamb)”; two different Persons but only one throne, since “του θρονου” is singular in number.

Thank you for your answers in advance, and God bless
Hidden In Him

Is the trinitarian argument that sitting on God’s throne establishes such a person, or persons, is God?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Yes, His throne will come down to us! New Jerusalem, new earth...new LIFE amen!

After the 1000 years is how I’ve seen it but not sure, lots of confusion.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

The reference was to Jesus promising the Laodiceans that if they overcame they would sit with Him on His earthly throne just as He sat down with His Father on His heavenly one. Both uses are in singular, so the translation there is correct. They're just referring to two different thrones is all.

Id like very much to hear how you arrived at that with scriptures!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Yes, and forgive my wise crack about the Greek if that came off as offensive. I was actually just encouraging you that it's not beyond your capacity. There are so many reference works out there these days that memorizing declensions isn't even necessary any more to study it.

Oh, no. No offense taken at all. It’s become increasingly harder to offend me than it was a few years ago.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Not that you were trying to offend. I don’t mean that. You were obviously joking!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Oh…! So this is a good answer for the argument I was making for nontrinitarians…
He is talking about His earthly throne not Gods throne in heaven. It also makes distinction between saints and the faithful.

mmm…needs some more thought on my part…not totally sitting firmly in my mind…

 

[Hidden In Him]

Id like very much to hear how you arrived at that with scriptures!

Well, I'm not sure if you are a millennialist or not, but the primary passage is Revelation 20:1-3:

Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time.

There are a number of other related passages, so I'm a little lost as far as knowing exactly what you would want to see. But the passages associated with "reigning with Christ" all generally refer first and foremost to doing so with Him during His 1,000 year reign on earth during the Millennium. That's what the New Testament writers were waiting for in expectation.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Is the trinitarian argument that sitting on God’s throne establishes such a person, or persons, is God?

You'd kinda need to read through the thread first, Matthias, as it has already been discussed some. But my responses in Posts #10, #16, #18, #25, and #27 might help somewhat.

God bless,
- H

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Well, I'm not sure if you are a millennialist or not, but the primary passage is Revelation 20:1-3:

Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time.

There are a number of other related passages, so I'm a little lost as far as knowing exactly what you would want to see. But the passages associated with "reigning with Christ" all generally refer first and foremost to doing so with Him during His 1,000 year reign on earth during the Millennium. That's what the New Testament writers were waiting for in expectation.

Yeah, that did it. I can see it. I have thought the saints rule over the faithful during that 1000 years of greatly improved life but not yet perfection.

 

[Matthias]

You'd kinda need to read through the thread first, Matthias, as it has already been discussed some. But my responses in Posts #10, #16, #18, #25, and #27 might help somewhat.

God bless,
- H

Thank you. I re-read the referenced posts and others in the thread, as you suggested, and it seems to me from them that it is the trinitarian argument. I was just looking for confirmation that I’m understanding you correctly.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Thank you. I re-read the referenced posts and others in the thread, as you suggested, and it seems to me from them that it is the trinitarian argument. I was just looking for confirmation that I’m understanding you correctly.

It doesn’t require trinitarianism. As I said earlier, only binitarianism is necessary to the argument.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Hello @Hidden In Him,

Due to the respect of my friend, Shawn (credit: https://cult.love/product/book-revelations-on-revelation/-revelations-on-revelation) I will share with you the fulfillment perspective of Revelation 21:1-3.

All Things Made New Chapter 21 - 1


1 - Chapter 21 is called the Renewal chapter by some and is believed to consist of three parts -- verses 1-8, when al things are made new, verses 9-21, which describe the new Jerusalem, and verses 22-27, which describe the glory of the new Jerusalem.

Additionally some scholars see the first eight verses as being an outline for the contents of both chapters 21 and 22. [See commentary on Revelation 21:1-8 The Outline] -> upcoming work in 2023

2 - The Jews were prone to seeing ages and economies as heavens and earths. For there to be a new heaven and a new earth is a way to describe a new administers or age and not a literal new heaven and earth. This is proven by Old Testament writing including Isaiah 65:17; Isaiah 66:22. Clarification - Ages, The Two; New Heaven and New Earth, The - > upcoming work in 2023

3. The first heaven and earth were the heavens and earth YHWH created for the Nation of Israel. This was distinctly separate from the Genesis 1 creation and was established by YHWH when He created a new administration for them. [again see Isaiah 65:17; Isaiah 66:22] This heaven and earth operated under the Law o fMoses, prophets, works-righteousness, dietary and dress demands, priesthoods of men, and genealogies. [see Isaiah 65:17; Isaiah 66:22; 2 Peter 3:13 Revelation 20:11]

4. The literal idea of no more seas or oceans has been a key support for people who refuse to see the Revelation as fulfilled. Contextually, there are a few alternative views that hold water [pun intended]. The first is the sea is typically an emblem of Gentiles in the Book of Revelation. This could therefore be a way to say this distinction is over. More literally, outside the temple was a large brass tub called the Brazen Sea by the Jews. When Jerusalem was destroyed it was taken away by the Romans. This appears to be the meaning of the text. [see Isaiah 65:17; Isaiah 66:22; 2 Peter 3:13 Revelation 20:11]



5. Jerusalem has been depicted as a whore who engaged with Rome repeatedly [ Revelation 17:1-18] In contradistinction to this imagery, the Bride of Christ, pure, holy, and undefiled is here [ and other places ] described as another city, this time holy. Where the nation of Israel was once seen as married [or the bride] of YHWH, He divorced her [Jeremiah 3:8; Isaiah 50:1], and Yeshua was given a new bride from those who truly followed Him in faith,. [See Isaiah 52:1; 54:5; 61:10; 2 Corinthians 11:2; Galatians 4:26; Hebrews 11:10; 12:22; 13:14; Revelation 3:12; 21:10]

- I am sorry @Hidden In Him, I looked at your post thinking you were asking about 21, not 22. I hope you do not mind if I try to get back at you tomorrow about it. I will share this work here though as some may find it interesting.

God bless brother.

What can anyone say to this…? The only word that comes to mind is just…yuck?

 

[MatthewG]

It takes time and dedication to do research, @stunnedbygrace. It is not an easy feature, sure it is fun to try to help explain things between one another but there is gotta be some breakaway and something to gain from studying the scriptures ya know?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

It takes time and dedication to do research, @stunnedbygrace. It is not an easy feature, sure it is fun to try to help explain things between one another but there is gotta be some breakaway and something to gain from studying the scriptures ya know?

You’re not making sense. Reading what some guy on the internet has written about what he thinks scripture means is not studying scripture. It’s studying a mans interpretation OF scripture.

 

[MatthewG]

He did the research and used the studies... everyone in here is feeding off each others ideas so what is the difference?

I suggest is highly judgmental but you do whatever you have to okay?

I am not forcing anyone here saying YOU MUST ADHERE TO THIS

 

[amadeus]

You’re not making sense. Reading what some guy on the internet has written about what he thinks scripture means is not studying scripture. It’s studying a mans interpretation OF scripture.

Yes, from what we have heard and read, it would seem that many Pharisees during the time Jesus walked planet Earth as a man, were well educated in the written scriptures. But... by reading about the times when Jesus met them, it seems that they did not know very much about the Way of God.

Saul of Tarsis learned from an apparently great Bible teacher, Gamaliel, but for all of that until he met Jesus on the road to Damascus, he was blind to the Way of God.

Are any Bible students [or even teachers] blind to the Way of God?

Who is still seeing through a glass darkly?
Who is already seeing face to face?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

He did the research and used the studies... everyone in here is feeding off each others ideas so what is the difference?

I suggest is highly judgmental but you do whatever you have to okay?

I am not forcing anyone here saying YOU MUST ADHERE TO THIS

You know, if you think it’s judgemental of me to not accept your proclamations or your friends proclamations, because of very poor scholarship and not being able to show by other scriptures how you arrive at “the whole earth” and “from one end of the earth to the other end of the earth” equaling “just Jerusalem,” I guess you’ll just have to think it of me.

And what you see as feeding off each others ideas I see as bringing up a question or perplexity and working through scriptures and with scriptures, guided by the Holy Spirit, to arrive at understanding together.

 

[Ziggy]

@Hidden In Him

How many more than 3 are to be one in Jesus as well as in His Father as per the following prayer?

"Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
John 17:20-23

If then there are to be more than three, would not the final result be a Multiplicity in the Godhead?

If not Jesus a righteous man. Do not his prayers avail much? Are we not to be like him?

"Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much." James 5:16

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." I John 3:2

So, we have this thing called the "Big Bang" theory. Everything just spontaneously flowed from this one point of energy that became time and space and all the material things.

My belief is that God is this, what science calls the Big Bang theory. They just can't admit to a God, because they want to be gods themselves.
anywhoo..

Science says at some point the universe will stop expanding and begin to collapse back in on itself. Kind of like taking in a deep breath and everything gets sucked back to it's original state. The origen of All.

My belief is when we die, our spirit goes back to the origen from which it came.
So if God is on the throne, and Jesus is on the throne, and we will be where they are. Then we will be on the throne as well,
only not as individuals, but as the original.

We shall see him as he is, because we will be him.
Everything flows from God and everything returns to God.

We don't remember our journey here, I don't suppose we'll remember our journey back.
But we have faith that we will return from whence we came.

Or at least I do..

Hugs

 

[MatthewG]

You know, if you think it’s judgemental of me to not accept your proclamations or your friends proclamations, because of very poor scholarship and not being able to show by other scriptures how you arrive at “the whole earth” and “from one end of the earth to the other end of the earth” equaling “just Jerusalem,” I guess you’ll just have to think it of me.

And what you see as feeding off each others ideas I see as bringing up a question or perplexity and working through scriptures and with scriptures, guided by the Holy Spirit, to arrive at understanding.

May God guide, and may love and understanding and patience prevail in the name of our Lord Yeshua friend.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

Scripture says that Jesus and the Father share the same throne in Heaven (Revelation 22:1, 3). If so, how could this infer anything else but that Jesus is God if He is seated together with Him on the same throne?

It is a mystery that will not be fully known until we see the throne ourselves in His kingdom.

“…the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ” (Colossians 2:2)

“For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.” (1 Corinthians 13:12)