Not all born-again Christians make it through the sanctification process!

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John Zain

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JB_Reformed Baptist said:
What's a born again christian to you. Is it one who simply responds to the gospel
or is it gospel + a second work of the 'holy spirit', evidenced by talking in tongues etc?
The baptism with the Holy Spirit, with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues,
is strictly a special anointing for some special task ... and has nothing to do with salvation.
It IS a second "blessing" and no one has it who has not first been born-again from above.
 

IanLC

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Salvation is not a state, destination or arrival point. It is a verb in a sense where it is constantly being worked in us as believers. As being "born again" we are born into the Spirit thus if we are truly "born again" the things tied to our "old nature (man)" should of died when we united with Christ Jesus in His death. No matter how we try to dress it up God commands sanctified and holy living in the inner man and outer man. Holiness is not popular in this Laedoicen church age we live in and people will fight against it. Yet HOLINESS is the standard and God's order does not change! I am persuaded to believe that since Jesus is holy and I am indwelled with Him through the Holy Spirit that I should and commanded to and want to live holy and thus I rest in salvation which is a holy salvation.
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John Zain

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Arnie Manitoba said:
Here is where we differ John
I am going to split hairs and say that the warning was about people who had knowledge of salvation (Christ) ....
but did not partake in it (thus they never were saved) ..... (and if they never were saved , they cannot " lose salvation")
Aaaah yes, you mean like the boys who partook of the Holy Spirit in Hebrews 6:4 who felleth awayeth?
But, it's okay, I like splitting hairs too, but only the ones that are large enough to split.


'Tis quite difficult to find anyone here who understands that
there were 2 classes of Israelites in the OT ...
(1) the anointed prophets who were temporarily given God's Spirit to prophesy,
and (2) the others who had nothing, i.e. nada.
'Tis not quite the same in the NT, and today, when all of God's chosen people
(who have accepted so far) have been given the Holy Spirit inside of them.


bytheway said:
Every denomination started with a primary truth, then heads got involved, attempts to bring God down into the arena of human understanding were of course.futile. Godly order through the doma gifiting is vital. Sad to say most only see a Pastor once or twice a week.The lost are tired of looking at us,they want to see Jesus.Until someone isn't worried that another may preach better, love more etc. When His people see and percieve 5 fold ministry in action w/Order then they have seen Him!
What happened is simple ...
Satan + sinful man = an extremely potent combo to fight against God
Don't overlook the incredibly slightly important fact of free-will for everyone involved!
So, I asketh thou ... What chance did God's original Church have of keepin' on keepin' on?
 

Arnie Manitoba

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John Zain said:
Aaaah yes, you mean like the boys who partook of the Holy Spirit in Hebrews 6:4 who felleth awayeth?
But, it's okay, I like splitting hairs too, but only the ones that are large enough to split.
Hebrews 6 is another completely misunderstood part of the bible

The subject is immaturity.... Hebrews 5:12 .... In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God’s word all over again. You need milk, not solid food!

Hebrews 6:1-2 Therefore let us move beyond the elementary teachings about Christ and be taken forward to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, and of faith in God, 2 instruction about cleansing rites, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment.

Hebrews 6:4-6 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

Read carefully ...... these folks have already repented (accepted Christ) ..... (but they are still immature) ...they are being told not to go back to the elementary foundations of repentance (accepting Christ) ..... it is impossible because THEY ALREADY HAVE CHRIST ..... and if THEY ALREADY HAVE CHRIST ..... it is impossible for them to not have him , then repent and have him again ....... to do that they would have to keep crucifying him over and over again .

The whole topic is about immaturity .... not salvation , or the loss of it.

We repent once and accept Christ once.

It is impossible to un-repent and then re-repent again.

We would have to de-crucify Christ each time and then re-crucify Christ each time for that to work.

It's impossible .... Christ was crucified only once .... and we repent and accept him only once.
 

John Zain

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Arnie Manitoba said:
Hebrews 6 is another completely misunderstood part of the bible
Thou truly has a wonderfully well-developed imagination ... must be your diet.
Everyone I know says Hebrews 6:4-8 has only 2 interpretations:
either they were saved, or never saved.
 

THE Gypsy

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PSST....NO Believer "makes it through the sanctification process". We will never be finished until we are standing at the throne of God.
 

Arnie Manitoba

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John Zain said:
Thou truly has a wonderfully well-developed imagination ... must be your diet.
Everyone I know says Hebrews 6:4-8 has only 2 interpretations:
either they were saved, or never saved.
Then tell everyone you know not to worry about somebody losing salvation

All they have to do is repent again , crucify Christ all over again , and everything will be fine

As a matter of fact , tell them they can do it as often as they want.
 

williemac

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John Zain said:
Thou truly has a wonderfully well-developed imagination ... must be your diet.
Everyone I know says Hebrews 6:4-8 has only 2 interpretations:
either they were saved, or never saved.
Heb. 6 begins with the comment that it is not necessary to re visit the foundation. Then the author tells why that is. He explains that if one were to fall away it would be impossible to renew him again to repentance. In other words, the only way that anyone would need to re visit the foundation is that if they had lost what was given and then given it again. But this cannot happen. The new birth is a one time event. Therefore the foundation needs to be laid only one time. :rolleyes:

John Zain said:
The baptism with the Holy Spirit, with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues,
is strictly a special anointing for some special task ... and has nothing to do with salvation.
It IS a second "blessing" and no one has it who has not first been born-again from above.
It is more than a special blessing for some special task. It is the presence of the Father and the Son coming to dwell and make their home with the believer. This was promised by Jesus when He foretold of the sending of another helper. But I concur that it is a separate experience and event than that of the new birth. It may or may not happen at the same time but cannot happen apart from, the new birth, as the new wine must be put into a new wine skin.
 

JB_Reformed Baptist

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Feb 23, 2013
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John Zain said:
The baptism with the Holy Spirit, with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues,
is strictly a special anointing for some special task ... and has nothing to do with salvation.
It IS a second "blessing" and no one has it who has not first been born-again from above.
John Zain said:
The baptism with the Holy Spirit, with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues,
is strictly a special anointing for some special task ... and has nothing to do with salvation.
It IS a second "blessing" and no one has it who has not first been born-again from above.
Do you consider yourself an Apostle of some sort?
 

Arnie Manitoba

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All Christians are going to hell
All Christians are lost
All Christians belong to the wrong denomination
All christian have it all wrong
Did I miss anyone ?

Please let me know if I missed anyone

Hate to miss anyone
 

John Zain

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JB_Reformed Baptist said:
Do you consider yourself an Apostle of some sort?
No, but I was called to be an evangelist ... just like Angelina was called to be a prophetess.

In several places in the NT, we are given the order of importance ...
primary leaders: apostle, prophet
secondary leaders: evangelist, pastor, teacher

Prior to being sent out, the Lord gave me this baptism with the Holy Spirit,
with the initial evidence/confirmation of speaking in tongues.

Whomever Jesus blesses with this baptism also receives
one or more of the 9 spiritual power gifts listed in 1 Cor 12.

If you really desire to receive everything the Lord can give to you,
I suggest utilizing Matthew 7:7-11.
And of course, the persistent widow was no dummy!

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It should be obvious, especially in light of
ALL of the MANY NEGATIVE Scriptures, that ...


Billy being called and chosen before the foundation of the world ...
does NOT mean that Billy will accept the call and co-operate with the Holy Spirit.


GOD DID NOT CREATE A BUNCH OF ROBOTS ... neither angels nor humans!
He desired only free-will worship, nothing else!
 

JB_Reformed Baptist

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John Zain said:
No, but I was called to be an evangelist ... just like Angelina was called to be a prophetess.

In several places in the NT, we are given the order of importance ...
primary leaders: apostle, prophet
secondary leaders: evangelist, pastor, teacher

Prior to being sent out, the Lord gave me this baptism with the Holy Spirit,
with the initial evidence/confirmation of speaking in tongues.

Whomever Jesus blesses with this baptism also receives
one or more of the 9 spiritual power gifts listed in 1 Cor 12.

If you really desire to receive everything the Lord can give to you,
I suggest utilizing Matthew 7:7-11.
And of course, the persistent widow was no dummy!

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It should be obvious, especially in light of
ALL of the MANY NEGATIVE Scriptures, that ...


Billy being called and chosen before the foundation of the world ...
does NOT mean that Billy will accept the call and co-operate with the Holy Spirit.


GOD DID NOT CREATE A BUNCH OF ROBOTS ... neither angels nor humans!
He desired only free-will worship, nothing else!


True, "MANY are CALLED but FEW are CHOSEN." MT 22:14
 

John Zain

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JB_Reformed Baptist said:
True, "MANY are CALLED but FEW are CHOSEN." MT 22:14
I find it very interesting that you would use this passage in this context.
IMO, almost everyone attaches it to salvation.

I once sat under a pastor of pastors who thought this verse
was referring to the choosing of church leadership.
 

JB_Reformed Baptist

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Feb 23, 2013
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John Zain said:
I find it very interesting that you would use this passage in this context.
IMO, almost everyone attaches it to salvation.

I once sat under a pastor of pastors who thought this verse
was referring to the choosing of church leadership.
Actually the reply was to your red letter edition. i.e. Billy being called and chosen before the foundation of the world ... does NOT mean that Billy will accept the call and co-operate with the Holy Spirit.
 

John Zain

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God’s strength is perfected in our weakness, our inability to obey His commandments in our own strength.
He calls us to a life of holiness and separation. He tells us we can be free from the bondage of sin.

His Word comes to us with some impossible challenges:
"Resist the devil. Walk in the Spirit. Come out from among them. Love your enemies.
Leave behind all your fears. Put down your lustful desires. Let no sin have dominion over you."

When you think honestly about how little you can do on your own to fulfill these challenges,
you realize how very weak you are. Your heart begins to cry,
"Lord, how can we do such great, holy things?"

That is when our Lord takes over! He comes with such a comforting message:
"Lay down your weapons. Quit trying to be so self-sufficient and strong.
I am your weapon and your strength. Let Me do what you never can do.
I will give you My righteousness, My holiness, My rest, My strength.
You cannot save yourself or please Me in any way other than by
receiving the blessings of the cross by faith.
Let Me be in charge of your growth in holiness."

… David Wilkerson … April 23, 2013
 

justaname

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John Zain said:
God’s strength is perfected in our weakness, our inability to obey His commandments in our own strength.
He calls us to a life of holiness and separation. He tells us we can be free from the bondage of sin.

His Word comes to us with some impossible challenges:
"Resist the devil. Walk in the Spirit. Come out from among them. Love your enemies.
Leave behind all your fears. Put down your lustful desires. Let no sin have dominion over you."

When you think honestly about how little you can do on your own to fulfill these challenges,
you realize how very weak you are. Your heart begins to cry,
"Lord, how can we do such great, holy things?"

That is when our Lord takes over! He comes with such a comforting message:
"Lay down your weapons. Quit trying to be so self-sufficient and strong.
I am your weapon and your strength. Let Me do what you never can do.
I will give you My righteousness, My holiness, My rest, My strength.
You cannot save yourself or please Me in any way other than by
receiving the blessings of the cross by faith.
Let Me be in charge of your growth in holiness."

… David Wilkerson … April 23, 2013
This is IMHO the best post on this subject John. What is difficult though for me to comprehend is how you can believe this and head the thread with the title you gave it.

God is the one in charge of our sanctification, not us. This is not to say we are to be complacent or noncompliant. We repented at the beginning of our belief and we are to continue in that repentance, yet if we fail we have an Advocate to pray on our behalf.
I suppose I might view things a bit differently than you do. Scare tactics, again IMHO, do not work, especially in light of this verse.

Romans 2:4

4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?

Personally I am constantly learning, repenting of my sins, fighting to stay on the narrow path, not looking to the left or right but to Him that is both the just and justifier. I know it is Him that sanctifies, and this is my joy. To think I am being conformed into the image of Christ is something to behold indeed. From this what love is there for this world, when the one to come is so much greater?

Now to challenge your idea a bit, I do not believe the new creation can or will have desire to stop the sanctification process. I believe that once God has begun His work in you, it is Him that will bring it to completion. We are exhorted to cooperate with that process, in this we can all agree, yet we can not thwart God's plan or process because He is greater than the sin in us.

Romans 8:29-30

29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

This calling is not the generic gospel call given to everyone, but is the calling of the new creature. Notice the tense that is used, aorist. Once we are the new creature we are sealed with the HolySpirit until the day of redemption and none can snatch us from the protection of God. Yes we will be judged, yet we will be judged under the blood of the Lamb.

It is through belief we are made into the new creature, not works. It is through belief that He works in us allowing us to perform every good deed prepared for us by Him before hand. Now when it comes to sanctification lets again look to the word of God.

Ephesians 5:25-27

25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her,
26 so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word,
27 that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless.

We can see it is Christ that sanctifies the church, and He presents the church to Himself. Remember it is three that testify, the Spirit, the water, and the blood. Being cleansed by the washing of water with the word, sprinkling with the blood of Christ, and obtaining the gift of the HolySpirit.

1Peter 1:2-5

2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4 to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Our protection is through faith not works, and it is the very power of God that protects us. The sanctifying work is the HolySpirit's. It is only by the HolySpirt's work that we obey. Being born again we are born to a living hope, an inheritance that is undefiled. You are not your own, but purchased at a price, a price that God will never deem unworthy.
 

John Zain

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justaname said:
God is the one in charge of our sanctification, not us.

We can see it is Christ that sanctifies the church, and He presents the church to Himself.
What you and others are doing is taking this SO personally.

I am trying to warn the lukewarm Christians, some of whom just
walked an aisle, said a prayer, and were told that now everything is great.

Also, many have seen people fall away who were Spirit-filled believers.

IMO, today most churches are of the lukewarm Laodicean variety
that Jesus warns so strongly in Rev 3:14-22.
 

Rex

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John don't you know that If we are not holy or sanctified that the holy spirit can not reside in us?

Hebrews 10:10
Hebrews 10:10 KJV
 

John Zain

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Rex said:
John don't you know that If we are not holy or sanctified that the holy spirit can not reside in us?
Hebrews 10:10
Hebrews 10:10 KJV
Super ... then what about these?

Hebrews 12:14 • Pursue holiness, without which no one will see the Lord.
1 Peter 1:15-16 but as He who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct,
because it is written, “Be holy, for I am holy
Ephesians 1:4 we should be holy and without blame before Him in love
Colossians 1:22-23 to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight,
if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast,
and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel