Not Born with Sin Nature

[robert derrick]

That is a good sentiment and credit well given to God...but it is not accurate. The truth of scripture tells us that one born of the flesh only will die as if dead already, and that in order to actually live one must also be born [again] of the spirit of God. In other words, no one wants to consider new born babies as being sinful from birth...

I don't do sentiment. This is not about trying to purify babies from the womb. I show Scripture to prove the things of God. 'Not acurate' without any counterpoint is not an answer.

but God has already decided that all who are only born of the flesh have fallen short of His glory, and have received the sentence of death.

Are you saying that man if firstborn into the world flesh only? We are not created souls first in the lowest parts of the earth, and then wrapped in flesh of the womb?

Man is born into the world a body only, but not a soul with a body?

 

[ScottA]

I show Scripture to prove the things of God. 'Not acurate' without any counterpoint is not an answer.

Here is that counterpoint--which I did give:

The truth of scripture tells us that one born of the flesh only will die as if dead already, and that in order to actually live one must also be born [again] of the spirit of God.

If you need or would like chapter and verse...just say so.

 

[robert derrick]

I just prefer to be honest. I don't try and justify myself at all. But all believers fall short of perfect obedience. And in my experience, it is better for others if we admit our failings, rather than infer perfect obedience, for then, you crush many sincere people who think you are living a nigh on perfect life and they feel much sorrow, guilt and depression that they are not where others claim to be

If we claim to be without sin we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us 1John1:8

Ye are witnesses, and God also, how holily and justly and unblameably we behaved ourselves among you that believe.

Paul just crushed and depressed lots of people he was writing to.

The 'guilt' you speak of is called the conviction of the Spirit, not the guilt tripping of the righteous who do the word as written, unlike others that only idealize the word.

When I read these Scriptures, I acknowledge I am lacking, and so know I need help from God to not fail Him, and so He does just that by His grace.

I have supplied you the teaching of exactly how that is done, both simply and easily by His power, but you reject it.

If you were truly honest with yourself, you would simply admit what I did at one time: You don't want to be free of your lust of heart and sins of the flesh.

As I said, don't claim to be without sin, but just obey the commandment from the heart to be purified of your lust for sins: He will be there to do it with you.

 

[stephen64]

If you were truly honest with yourself, you would simply admit what I did at one time: You don't want to be free of your lust of heart and sins of the flesh.

.

Thank you for judging me in respect of what you perceive I want and don't want.

 

[robert derrick]

Here is that counterpoint--which I did give:
If you need or would like chapter and verse...just say so.

That is not a counterpoint, but rather a new introduction to the teaching.

The debate is about being born with sin: that flesh is made of sinful physical seed of man.

Now you are speaking of being born of flesh only, which is another direction than the main point of being born with sin.

I.e. speaking of being born of flesh only, speaks nothing of that flesh being sinful. That is a presumption on your part applied to a Scripture that speaks nothing of the nature of the flesh, whether it be sinful or not.

1. I say the soul that sins, it dies. It is the soul that sins, not the body. It is the soul that sins with the body. The body of flesh has nothing to say about it of itself. The body does not make us do it. Neither does the devil. There is no sin in the flesh itself, compelling anyone to sin against God with the flesh.

There is only lust within the heart, that entices man to sin against God with the flesh.

What say you?

2. Now to your new teaching: Are you saying that being born of flesh only, means that we are not created souls first, and then clothed in mortal flesh? All men born into the world are sinful bodies only, called the natural man? They yet to have souls created by God? But only after being born again, do we become for the first time created living souls, and not sinful bodies only?

Are all natural men firstborn into the world from the womb, are born without souls created by God? Natural men who say there is no God and do not believe in souls are indeed correct at least about themselves: they do not have souls, though there is a God in heaven?

 

[robert derrick]

Thank you for judging me in respect of what you perceive I want and don't want.

Ok. No problem.

Do you want to have a heart purified of lust, so that you are not enticed to sin in the flesh?

Do you believe that is possible in this life, or any given day in this life?

 

[ScottA]

Are you saying that man if firstborn into the world flesh only? We are not created souls first in the lowest parts of the earth, and then wrapped in flesh of the womb?

Man is born into the world a body only, but not a soul with a body?

More or less. Man is created "a little lower than the angels"...meaning, not of the spirit of God.

Which is not to say that man is without a soul, but it would appear that this is the point of confusion. Jesus clarified, saying, that we need to be "born of water and and of the spirit"...with no mention of the soul. I would explain it this way: That the soul refers to the God-given dominion over what is only flesh and separates them from the animals, as that part of being created in God's image, which is the ability to choose life or death. Meaning that mankind is not first born of the spirit.

 

[stephen64]

Ok. No problem.

Do you want to have a heart purified of lust, so that you are not enticed to sin in the flesh?

Do you believe that is possible in this life, or any given day in this life?

Can you tell me what the core foundation of the new covenant is? This is related to your question

 

[robert derrick]

And what's funny, is how God likes to bring down the haughty who think they can be perfect like Him. I've seen it many times just in my life, and there's much Bible history showing it too.

And I'm quite sure you only crow about it on the inside.

Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

Do you people ever stop to think, that even if the righteous do fall, it doesn't make the unrighteous to be any less sinful?

Are we really justified by Jesus Christ by popular consent? If everyone else is doing it, then He has to justify them all?

Who ever said I was doing these things? I'm just teaching what I read from Scripture. If the teaching is true, why do you argue with men about doing it, or hope no man is on earth doing righteousness at all times according to the Scripture?

Are you not childish? Do you not see your own silliness?

 

[stephen64]

Ok. No problem.

Do you want to have a heart purified of lust, so that you are not enticed to sin in the flesh?

Do you believe that is possible in this life, or any given day in this life?

You must forgive me, but when people write long posts of exhortation concerning themselves and where they perceive to be at in the faith, it always reminds of the people I have met who have done this in churches. They never could live up to what they wanted to portray of themselves. More humble people outshone them where it mattered most
God bless

 

[robert derrick]

More or less. Man is created "a little lower than the angels"...meaning, not of the spirit of God.

Ok. I say man is a created a spiritual being and living soul first in the lowest part of the earth by God in His image. Which He then breathes into the womb of a woman, as apart from Adam, whose flesh was made by God from the dust of the earth. That is the proper sense of all Scripture speaking of such things.

Man is therefore created a little lower than the angels in being clothed with mortal flesh, unlike the angles in spiritual bodies only.

Our spiritual being is housed in earthen vessels, and so we are not able to see and move and speak as the angels in the spiritual kingdom: we must see with physical eyes, speak with mouths, and move with mortal bodies.

But we are created in no way inferior to the angels as spiritual beings with thought, intent, and imagination: we are created perfectly alive and good even as every angel, including Lucifer, and we therefore are created with power to choose good or evil, as Lucifer and all angels.

Which is not to say that man is without a soul, but it would appear that this is the point of confusion. Jesus clarified, saying, that we need to be "born of water and and of the spirit"...with no mention of the soul. I would explain it this way: That the soul refers to the God-given dominion over what is only flesh and separates them from the animals, as that part of being created in God's image, which is the ability to choose life or death. Meaning that mankind is not first born of the spirit.

Not in that verse specifically, but certainly other verses beginning with Gen 2. And so you are the one making confusion by implying different things.

One one hand you speak of no man being without a soul, and yet on the other you speak of how a soul is not included with some men, not yet born of water and the spirit.

The question is simple: is man born a physical body only, or is man created a living soul first by God, and then clothed with mortal flesh in the womb? That is what Scripture is saying. Yes or no? Is man first created a soul by God in the lowest parts of the earth. The next question would be whether that soul is created alive in His image, or dead in sin.

I would explain it this way: That the soul refers to the God-given dominion over what is only flesh and separates them from the animals, as that part of being created in God's image, which is the ability to choose life or death. Meaning that mankind is not first born of the spirit.

This makes no sense. You are trying to describe a soul of man that is apart from animals, and yet you say the difference you cite is no different from animals: all living creatures on earth have power to choose to fight or flee, and thus to live or die.

The soul of man is a spiritual being created in God's image: which is power to choose good or evil.

And that soul is thus made and born of the Spirit of God: The Word who has made and created all things, both spiritual and natural.

You are trying to speak of some sort of 'soul' in between that is neither spiritual nor flesh.

Are you saying that man, like all animals, is simply a physical body with soul to move it, like all living creatures on earth, whose body is only shaped differently than the rest?

There are two teaching different from one another: natural man says man is body only, no soul nor spirit. Scripture teaches man is a soul created by God in His image and clothed in natural bodies.

What say you?

 

[ScottA]

That is not a counterpoint, but rather a new introduction to the teaching.

The debate is about being born with sin: that flesh is made of sinful physical seed of man.

Now you are speaking of being born of flesh only, which is another direction than the main point of being born with sin.

I.e. speaking of being born of flesh only, speaks nothing of that flesh being sinful. That is a presumption on your part applied to a Scripture that speaks nothing of the nature of the flesh, whether it be sinful or not.

1. I say the soul that sins, it dies. It is the soul that sins, not the body. It is the soul that sins with the body. The body of flesh has nothing to say about it of itself. The body does not make us do it. Neither does the devil. There is no sin in the flesh itself, compelling anyone to sin against God with the flesh.

There is only lust within the heart, that entices man to sin against God with the flesh.

What say you?

First, before going on:

Don't misunderstand--if I do not quote chapter and verse, it is not because I am not quoting scripture or paraphrasing the scripture. Such a practice should mean nothing to those who know the scriptures, which practice was not ever used during the times the scriptures were written.​

As for the flesh being born sinful or not:

Romans 8:3-4
For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
​

But I do get your point--not that it changes what the scriptures say. Nonetheless, whether the flesh is the cause in and of itself or not, it is doomed from birth with the soul that chooses to sin. Which is why I would suggest that Jesus never made the distinction when referring to the need to be born of water and also of the spirit of God. I too would not make such a distinction, and do not.

So then, we know that the spirit of God is not that which chooses life, but it is the flesh that choses, having been born with a soul--which is first born fully capable of sin unto death, born with that God-given nature that, unlike the animals, and may choose sin. Meaning that whether one chooses to sin or not to sin, he is born with that nature which does result in sin, except in the case of Christ (even though He too was born in the same sinful likeness), and where God did not account sin to some as He chose.

 

[Davy]

And I'm quite sure you only crow about it on the inside.

Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

Do you people ever stop to think, that even if the righteous do fall, it doesn't make the unrighteous to be any less sinful?

Are we really justified by Jesus Christ by popular consent? If everyone else is doing it, then He has to justify them all?

Who ever said I was doing these things? I'm just teaching what I read from Scripture. If the teaching is true, why do you argue with men about doing it, or hope no man is on earth doing righteousness at all times according to the Scripture?

Are you not childish? Do you not see your own silliness?

I ought to start 'my own' church and preach the un-Biblical junk lot of those RICH mega-church preachers are preaching, that once we believe on Jesus we no longer sin. Then I'd have me three swimming pools to go with my multi-million dollar house, severl Rolls Royce cars, and jet plane, and plenty of good looking sisters surrounding me.

But alas, I couldn't bring myself to do that, because I know God's Word does not teach what those are preaching! All I can say about those, is they better enjoy those material things while they can!

 

[ScottA]

2. Now to your new teaching: Are you saying that being born of flesh only, means that we are not created souls first, and then clothed in mortal flesh? All men born into the world are sinful bodies only, called the natural man? They yet to have souls created by God? But only after being born again, do we become for the first time created living souls, and not sinful bodies only?

Are all natural men firstborn into the world from the womb, are born without souls created by God? Natural men who say there is no God and do not believe in souls are indeed correct at least about themselves: they do not have souls, though there is a God in heaven?

I believe I just answered this.

No, but the flesh being created in the image of God is, unlike God is flesh, but having a soul, which is the ability to choose to sin or not, which is the ability to choose life or death. And yet the flesh is born with this nature, not separate, but joined together by God in one body...making it not incorrect to say "born with a sin nature." If it were not so, there would be no need for a Savior, which need is established by God.

Again, I get your point. But why dissect what God has joined together in one body of flesh?

 

[ScottA]

Ok. I say man is a created a spiritual being and living soul first in the lowest part of the earth by God in His image. Which He then breathes into the womb of a woman, as apart from Adam, whose flesh was made by God from the dust of the earth. That is the proper sense of all Scripture speaking of such things.

No--Jesus clearly made the distinction that all who are born of the flesh are not born of the spirit of God, and must therefore also be born again. Your statement makes Him a liar.

 

[ScottA]

On one hand you speak of no man being without a soul, and yet on the other you speak of how a soul is not included with some men, not yet born of water and the spirit.

The question is simple: is man born a physical body only, or is man created a living soul first by God, and then clothed with mortal flesh in the womb? That is what Scripture is saying. Yes or no? Is man first created a soul by God in the lowest parts of the earth. The next question would be whether that soul is created alive in His image, or dead in sin.

That is not my distinction, but the distinction made by Christ.

The problem is that you seem to be equating the soul with the spirit--which Christ does not do, but just the opposite. To the contrary, the scriptures combine the flesh with the soul, but neither with the spirit, as one must be born separately [again] of the Spirit.

So, no, the flesh of men is not born with that spirit that you seem to assume.

 

[Davy]

That is not my distinction, but the distinction made by Christ.

The problem is that you seem to be equating the soul with the spirit--which Christ does not do, but just the opposite. To the contrary, the scriptures combine the flesh with the soul, but neither with the spirit, as one must be born separately [again] of the Spirit.

So, no, the flesh of men is not born with that spirit that you seem to assume.

That idea that Scripture combines the soul with flesh could be argued too, because Jesus said to not fear those who can kill our flesh body, but not our soul, showing our soul also is separate from our flesh. Old Testament Scripture kind of uses the idea of the soul in a flesh sense, but The New Testament Scriptures do not.

 

[ScottA]

This makes no sense. You are trying to describe a soul of man that is apart from animals, and yet you say the difference you cite is no different from animals: all living creatures on earth have power to choose to fight or flee, and thus to live or die.

The soul of man is a spiritual being created in God's image: which is power to choose good or evil.

And that soul is thus made and born of the Spirit of God: The Word who has made and created all things, both spiritual and natural.

You are trying to speak of some sort of 'soul' in between that is neither spiritual nor flesh.

Are you saying that man, like all animals, is simply a physical body with soul to move it, like all living creatures on earth, whose body is only shaped differently than the rest?

There are two teaching different from one another: natural man says man is body only, no soul nor spirit. Scripture teaches man is a soul created by God in His image and clothed in natural bodies.

What say you?

It is what Jesus said that makes sense. Therefore, I do not assume the flesh is born with the spirit, but rather that we must also be born [again] of the Spirit.

Again, the scriptures do not say "The soul of man is a spiritual being created in God's image", but rather that the flesh is born with a soul--but not of the Spirit. To say otherwise is to call Jesus a liar. But this point of confusion...is simply a mistake that should be corrected to align with the whole word of God and Christ.

As for being just like the animals...No, but like the animals having the breath of animals, but distinct from the animals by the dominion given by God to be over the animals by one difference--that is the ability to choose life and death in his soul.

As for being "clothed in natural bodies"--it is not that Spirit of God that resides therein from birth. Yes, many refer to that breath of life given by God first in the garden as spirit, but Christ did not. This is error--error against the teachings of Christ. Thus, that life is not life according to God, therefore we must also be born [again] of that Spirit. That would-be life then is life unto death, rather than life unto life--which is not given to the flesh, whether man or animal. Meaning that the only thing that makes man different from the animals, is that he is created in the image of God which comes with the ability to choose life or death--this is a property unique to the soul of mankind for having been created in the image of God.

 

[Davy]

Still... Hebrews 4:12 reveals God created flesh man with 3 parts...

1. flesh body (the "marrow" of Hebrews 4:12)
2. spirit
3. soul

The orthodox Jews wrongly believe that the 'soul' part is part of our fleshy makeup. It is not. Our 'soul' is about our 'person', our 'Id' one might say, the part that contains our personality, our individual, what makes 'you'.

The reason why the orthodox Jews believe in 'soul sleep' is because they wrongly believe the 'soul' is part of the flesh, so it must be dead along with our flesh body in a casket or tomb, and God must resurrect both our flesh and soul together at the resurrection. This is not what The New Testament teaches though. Yet that doctrine is still popular among the Jews simply because the majority of them don't believe on Jesus Christ, and thus do not recognize The New Testament Books which teaches differently.

The New Testament instead teaches that our soul with spirit can be separated. And at death of our flesh body, that is exactly what happens, our flesh part goes back to the earthly elements where it came from. But our soul with spirit goes back to God Who gave it. That teaching partially is actually from Ecclesiastes 12:5-7, but it only mentions our 'spirit' going back to God, and most scholars interpret that "spirit" there to be nothing more than a force that is in all living things.

The reality though, is that our 'spirit' that dwells inside our flesh, is actually a type of heavenly body of that other dimension. It is what Apostle Paul called the "spiritual body" in 1 Corinthians 15, and in 2 Corinthians 5, Paul called it a house not made with hands, but a body eternal in the heavens. So to be more exact per New Testament Scripture, our created makeup is...

1. flesh material from the earth, material matter and that is all, no mind, no spirit, just dust of the earth, dirt.
2. "spiritual body", the body type of the heavenly order, what Paul also called the "image of the heavenly" in 1 Corinthians 15, and a house not made with hands, but eternal in the heavens, per 2 Corinthians 5. This body is in a liable to die state without Christ.
3. soul - the 'you' part, and it is in a mortal liable to die state until one accepts Jesus Christ as their Savior.

So wherever one's soul is, in a flesh body, or in the heavenly, the soul needs a body to dwell in, a 'house' or 'tabernacle' Apostle Paul called it in 2 Corinthians 5. The "spiritual body" is a heavenly 'house' for our soul. Our flesh body is an earthly house for our spirit and soul. At flesh death, we put off our earthly house, don't need it anymore, ever.

 

[robert derrick]

I ought to start 'my own' church and preach the un-Biblical junk lot of those RICH mega-church preachers are preaching, that once we believe on Jesus we no longer sin. Then I'd have me three swimming pools to go with my multi-million dollar house, severl Rolls Royce cars, and jet plane, and plenty of good looking sisters surrounding me.

But alas, I couldn't bring myself to do that, because I know God's Word does not teach what those are preaching! All I can say about those, is they better enjoy those material things while they can!

And you sins while you can.