Not Born with Sin Nature

[robert derrick]

I am aware of these things you bring up. But you have assumed things that God has not presented as such. Contrary to what you say:

• Good is not perfect.
• The soul is not the spirit (even if all things were of God whom is spirit). Nor are all spirits good.
• Mankind is captive without a Savior.
• One must be born again to receive the spirit of God.

The perfection that you yourself have assign to the soul according to your own beliefs, does not come at the birth of the flesh, or even with the first breath, but only through Christ. Anything else is a false gospel.

It is enough.

Once again, you are inferring to me only what you think based upon your own false doctrine.

1. God did make all things good and perfect, whether spiritual beings or natural bodies. That is Scripture. Your error is to read good and perfect as righteous and holy.

Perfect in Scripture simply means whole, complete, altogether well done and finished:

But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

2. Scripture makes difference between soul and spirit, which the word is quick and powerful to rightly divide between. I only say man is a soul and spiritual being, having a soul and a spirit and mind of the spirit, even as the angels are ministering spirits in spiritual bodies, while we minister the Spirit in bodies of flesh.

Your statement that man is not created a spiritual being as the angels is false.

That is why Christian sinners accusing being perfect and entire of claiming righteous perfectionism, which only comes with the bodily resurrection of the saints, from naturally mortal and corruptible to spiritually immortal and incorruptible.

3. Sinners must be born of the Spirit of God again, in order to become newborn babes in Christ and sons of God again on earth, as from the womb, but now from the bosom of the Father.

All spiritual beings are first born of God's spirit breathed into them, which is why Adam was a son of God, and the angels before their fall are called sons of God:

Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name.

The perfection that you yourself have assign to the soul according to your own beliefs, does not come at the birth of the flesh, or even with the first breath, but only through Christ. Anything else is a false gospel.

Being made perfect in every way was by Christ from the beginning:

All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.In him was life; and the life was the light of men. That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

Being made good and perfect again is being born again by Christ on earth: the first time in the lowest parts of the earth, and then upon earth itself.

Your problem is you either read through your own false doctrine, or you ignore certain Scriptures altogether. In either case, you think you have Scripture sufficiently mishandled to prove for yourself your own doctrine, which is every man's right of free will, even when false.

It is enough.

Too bad. I was enjoying your efforts to actually counterpoint what I offer, rather than just talk over it with your own tradition. It is very profitable to me, to see how the doctrine of Christ by what it exactly written always holds true against every detail of false doctrine imaginable.

 

[robert derrick]

Well, terms like 'sin nature' doesn't describe what Apostle Paul taught in Romans 7 about our flesh being the cause of most of our sin. Paul keeps it simple, not philosophical.

Rom 7:14-23
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
KJV

Thus we are governed by two separate laws, the law of sin that is in our fleshy members, and then the law of God after the inward man, pointing to our spirit. Paul says the two war against each other. That means they are two completely separate things. And that is how those in Christ should teach them.

But some brethren are wrongly taught that our flesh can be made perfect, which is not Biblical at all.

Your point is good, which leads away from the excuse to remain wretchedly double minded for life.

However, the only law of nature in any flesh, grass, tree, moon, or star is that of mortality. God made all such natural things mortal and good from the beginning. It is not evil to be mortally made by God, only natural. And He did it good, as in well done, like any good clay pot of the potter.

And so there is no sin nor law to sin in the flesh, but only the law of mortality.

Our bodies do nothing of themselves, and so neither can our flesh nor the devil be blamed for our souls sinning in the flesh by lust of the heart.

But some brethren are wrongly taught that our flesh can be made perfect, which is not Biblical at all.

The flesh is not made perfect, nor is the grass, but was made mortal from the beginning. The flesh cannot be made anything other than what it is made to be: a mortal earthen vessel for the souls of men, which includes Jesus' body in the days of His flesh.

Nor the first Adam, whose body was made of perishable dust, and whose seed is made perishable by God just as all seeds of the earth. Adam's soul died from God in the day He sinned against God. His body would had died anyway, when Adam departed this life. Even as Jesus' body did.

And so, mortal flesh and blood cannot inherit the eternal kingdom of God, which is why the saints are promised the hope of the resurrection of their mortal bodies into that of spiritual immortality.

The resurrected saints will have the same likeness of spiritual body as that of Jesus Christ, which is different from every other spiritual body of angels and beasts in heaven.

The perfecting of the saints is not of the flesh, but is of the heart and life of Christ, to go on from wretched double heartedness to perfecting righteousness and true holiness in the fear of the Lord:

Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

The difference between the saint in Christ Jesus and the 'pharisee' Christian is simply washing and purifying within the platter first, before seeking to go on to perfect holiness in life with an unclean heart.

But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

Being perfect in Christ is simply being wholly pure of heart and living entirely unto the Lord by faith, without the double mindedness that continues to commit sins and trespasses with the flesh.

Our spirits are being made perfect and justified in life by the faith of Jesus, not our mortal bodies, which are simply natural, not sinful nor righteous:

To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

 

[ScottA]

Good try, however, as it is written, Man became a living soul, only after God breathed His Spirit into the body of dust, which was nothing but dust, until the spiritual being of man was dwelling therein.

The earthen vessel is no more sinful than any other clay pot. The challenge to God the Potter was not about being made a sinner, but about being made mortal in the flesh, and so a little lower than the other created spiritual beings called angels.

Your translation also proves two other things: that the soul of man is made living by God, and that we are spiritual living beings housed in mortal bodies of dust and grass.

You are speaking against (anti) Christ -- God's Spirit does not come to the flesh at all. According to Christ, one must be born again of the spirit of God.

This is not working. I am happy to discuss it, but I don't want to hear your anti-Christ doctrine, as if you had any authority to correct me in the same breath. You don't.

 

[Davy]

Your point is good, which leads away from the excuse to remain wretchedly double minded for life.

Sorry, that statement doesn't make sense. Say what you mean, mean what you say.

However, the only law of nature in any flesh, grass, tree, moon, or star is that of mortality. God made all such natural things mortal and good from the beginning. It is not evil to be mortally made by God, only natural. And He did it good, as in well done, like any good clay pot of the potter.

Apostle Paul was not talking about mother 'nature' like God's whole creation. Paul was talking about "the body of sin", pointing to our flesh body. He was being specific, so can't you stay focused on topic?:

Rom 6:5-7
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of His death, we shall be also in the likeness of His resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
KJV

The resurrection is not... to another flesh body, but to the "spiritual body" Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 15:42-50.

And so there is no sin nor law to sin in the flesh, but only the law of mortality.

Well! You just went DIRECTLY AGAINST THE SCRIPTURE right there bud. Apostle Paul explained that there IS a law operating within our fleshy members, and Paul called it "the law of sin":

Rom 7:24-25
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
KJV

Our bodies do nothing of themselves, and so neither can our flesh nor the devil be blamed for our souls sinning in the flesh by lust of the heart.

Well! AGAIN... you go DIRECTLY AGAINST THE SCRIPTURE!

Our flesh LUSTS cause most of our sins while alive in these flesh bodies.

2 Peter 2:18
18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
KJV

1 Peter 4:2
2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.
KJV

1 Peter 2:11
11 Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul;
KJV

James 4:1
1 From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members?
KJV

Eph 2:3
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
KJV

Gal 5:24
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
KJV

You obviously do not understand what this present flesh world is about, or if you did, you have forgotten. You might want to go back to Genesis 3 and begin all over to find that out.

 

[robert derrick]

You are speaking against (anti) Christ -- God's Spirit does not come to the flesh at all. According to Christ, one must be born again of the spirit of God.

This is not working. I am happy to discuss it, but I don't want to hear your anti-Christ doctrine, as if you had any authority to correct me in the same breath. You don't.

Well, that's one way to end a losing argument.

When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

Once again, you ascribe to me something foolish I never said nor even heard of, because you apply your own twisted doctrine to it.

I don't even know what the Spirit of God coming to the flesh means, unless you are thinking of God coming to or upon a mortal body made for man, and then breathed His Spirit into it, which of course is not entirely correct. He didn't come to a made body, but so soon as He fashioned that body of dust, He then breathed into it His breath of Life, so that man became a living soul within a mortal body.

A mortal body is an 'it', but man is a soul, and is wrapped in 'it'.

So, he didn't come to the flesh, but rather made a living soul and breathed within 'it', even as He did for Himself from Mary's womb, and so the Son has come in the flesh. Saying that God's Spirit came to the flesh makes no sense.

Your doctrine of the flesh coming into the world with a soul is the lie: souls come into the world with mortal bodies as earthen vessels of flesh.

The natural man sees only the things of nature and the flesh, and rejects all spiritual things, including their own souls.

The spiritual man of error sees the flesh first, and only then the spirit of man coming with 'it'.

The spiritual man of Christ sees the soul and spirit first, and only then being covering of flesh.

The results of course are Christians sinners excusing the sins of the flesh as being by the flesh, as though the flesh could be with blame, while the Christian saint has no excuse for sinning with the flesh at all, but knows all sin is by the soul with the body, with the body not to be blamed at all.

Therefore, the only confession that the Advocate forgives is:

Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.

I.e. I sinned against God, not my body at all, but I alone did this evil in thy sight.

God doesn't forgive nor excuse sinners who think their 'sinful' bodies are to blame in any part for their sinning souls.

So, if you are reduced to playing childish games of coming up with senseless statements of your own, to label me as ANTICHRIST, then I take back my 'too bad' comment about you leaving the argument.

I don't play games with children, unless it's kickball or something.

 

[ScottA]

Well, that's one way to end a losing argument.

When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

Once again, you ascribe to me something foolish I never said nor even heard of, because you apply your own twisted doctrine to it.

I don't even know what the Spirit of God coming to the flesh means, unless you are thinking of God coming to or upon a mortal body made for man, and then breathed His Spirit into it, which of course is not entirely correct. He didn't come to a made body, but so soon as He fashioned that body of dust, He then breathed into it His breath of Life, so that man became a living soul within a mortal body.

A mortal body is an 'it', but man is a soul, and is wrapped in 'it'.

So, he didn't come to the flesh, but rather made a living soul and breathed within 'it', even as He did for Himself from Mary's womb, and so the Son has come in the flesh. Saying that God's Spirit came to the flesh makes no sense.

Your doctrine of the flesh coming into the world with a soul is the lie: souls come into the world with mortal bodies as earthen vessels of flesh.

The natural man sees only the things of nature and the flesh, and rejects all spiritual things, including their own souls.

The spiritual man of error sees the flesh first, and only then the spirit of man coming with 'it'.

The spiritual man of Christ sees the soul and spirit first, and only then being covering of flesh.

The results of course are Christians sinners excusing the sins of the flesh as being by the flesh, as though the flesh could be with blame, while the Christian saint has no excuse for sinning with the flesh at all, but knows all sin is by the soul with the body, with the body not to be blamed at all.

Therefore, the only confession that the Advocate forgives is:

Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.

I.e. I sinned against God, not my body at all, but I alone did this evil in thy sight.

God doesn't forgive nor excuse sinners who think their 'sinful' bodies are to blame in any part for their sinning souls.

So, if you are reduced to playing childish games of coming up with senseless statements of your own, to label me as ANTICHRIST, then I take back my 'too bad' comment about you leaving the argument.

I don't play games with children, unless it's kickball or something.

Your words and error were clear--I quoted you.

But my casting pearls has a limit. You have reached that limit. As I said, it is enough.

 

[Davy]

Some may understand this, and others may not. Keep diggin' in study of God's Word is all I can say, if you don't understand.

Since I quoted from James about pointing to how our fleshy members causes most of our sins, through its lusts, some apparently have a more 'pure' outlook about their flesh, and our time in the flesh here on earth for this present world. And that outlook can cloud the actual Biblical view of reality about it. So maybe this will help, maybe not.

James 4:1
4 From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members?
KJV

Some here instead argue that our flesh lusts isn't the source, but it's our soul that causes us to sin. Now I hate to single @robert derrick out in something he said above, but it's to the point with the deception about flesh many are in today...

Robert Derrick said:
"Our bodies do nothing of themselves, and so neither can our flesh nor the devil be blamed for our souls sinning in the flesh by lust of the heart."

Points I will cover:
1. the devil CAN... be blamed.

2. our flesh is a body of 'corruption' for this world, it can never be perfect.


1. We know that to Satan is assigned the power of death (Hebrews 2:14), because of his rebellion in the old world in coveting God's throne (Ezekiel 28; Isaiah 14; Revelation 12:3-4). We also know for this reason The Son of God was manifested in these last times, to destroy the works of the devil, and thus defeat death, for us on His cross.

Yet per Revelation 21:4 we are told in God's future Kingdom in the world to come, there will be NO MORE DEATH. Now that idea is kind of difficult for us today in this present world to wrap our minds around, isn't it? Yet that is specifically what God's Word says there. And are there any Scripture examples of that? Yeah!

In the world to come:
Isa 11:6-7
6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.

7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
KJV

Can you picture that happening during this PRESENT WORLD we are in now?? No way! A wolf today will eat that lamb, and a bear will definitely eat that cow! What is that pointing to for the future?

It is pointing to today's violent animal NATURE existing NO MORE. Sorry Wild Kingdom TV show.

I spent time in front of the TV as a boy watching all the different wild animals prey on each other in Mutual of Omaha's Wild Kingdom TV show. And they all the time put that animal nature of life and death based on the survival of the fittest as if it was some glorious miracle of God's wonderful creation! In other words, there was no way they were going to ever think those animals could follow any other desires than their animal flesh nature.

But that is where many that lack understanding in God's Word fail with thinking that killing and death animal nature is something that God was responsible for, just as with today's state of His creation that it is in today with other things, like our own flesh. Yet that Revelation 21:4 and Isaiah 11 Scripture forces us to re-think some of that, doesn't it? How then in God's future Kingdom will the fox and lamb dwell together, and there will be no more death?

In Romans 8:18-25, Apostle Paul showed that for this present creation, God placed it into vanity, in bondage to corruption. Just when God did that I believe was when He ended Satan's rebellion in the old world, the world that Peter called "the world that then was" in 2 Peter 3.

That means this PRESENT WORLD, God's creation is in a state of CORRUPTION. You can attach those things like sin, death, evil, destruction, killing, etc., to that if you want, it will fit.

What about our fleshy members that Apostle Paul called a "body of sin" to be destroyed? (Romans 6 & 7). Same kind of thing going on like today's animal kingdom, the flesh lusts even in the animal kingdom desires to do evil. How can we know that? Well, if you read that Isaiah 11 example about the behavior of those animals in God's future Kingdom of the world to come, and no more death, you ought to start to see how this PRESENT world is actually NOT perfect, but imperfect, and in a state of corruption, and destined to be destroyed by fire! (2 Peter 3:10).

Who did this? Who caused God to put this present world in a state of corruption?? Satan caused it, by his coveting God's throne, wanting to be THE GOD. And thus those born in the flesh were made subject to sin so that His Salvation through His Son would be to those who believe on Him! (Galatians 3:22).

So don't worry, your flesh is NEVER going to be perfect, nor will you keep it, because it is of the CORRUPTION for THIS PRESENT WORLD, not the world to come when corruption will no longer be. And even Apostle James in the above and Apostle Paul in Romans 6 & 7 well understood this.

 

[robert derrick]

Sorry, that statement doesn't make sense. Say what you mean, mean what you say.

Sorry. I was saying that your take on Romans 7 does not seem to be the standard excuse for being double minded sinners for life, as with most OSAS followers: I.e. you don't seem to be excusing continuing to sin with the flesh.

Unless, I am mistaken.

Apostle Paul was not talking about mother 'nature' like God's whole creation. Paul was talking about "the body of sin", pointing to our flesh body. He was being specific, so can't you stay focused on topic?:

Rom 6:5-7
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of His death, we shall be also in the likeness of His resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

You say the body of flesh, I say the body of our life: the 'body of work' we do in life with mortal physical bodies.

Paul says body of sin, you say body of flesh, as in sin filled flesh. And if the body of sin, the old man of sin, is the body of flesh, then it is now destroyed and crucified is it not? And so your physical body is dead? There is a deeply delusional teaching that suggests that very thing, saying that the flesh is dead, because of sins and trespasses.

Are you saying your physical body has been crucified and destroyed? Are you now what the gnostics said of Jesus, that He was only a spirit in a body not of His own? The body of the old man of sin is not longer your own? Your soul has been resurrected away to no more be judged thereby?

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

The physical body is only dead, decayed, and destroyed without the spirit of man dwelling therein.

James is also speaking of the body of faith, as in the body of works in this life by faith. If that faith has no physical works, then it's spiritual body is dead: the hidden man of the heart is dead still in sins and trespasses.

And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses.

That is not being still dead with sins, but were dead before being washed and quickened from them:

And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins...Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

The resurrection is not... to another flesh body, but to the "spiritual body" Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 15:42-50.

True. The both the corpses of the righteous and the bodies of those alive and remaining on earth, will be resurrected into immortal and incorruptible spiritual bodies, even as Jesus' body on earth is resurrected with the prints of the nails seen by Thomas, and is also still seen in heaven as a Lamb having been slain.

The delusional teaching that the physical flesh is now dead, as you seem to agree with, also teaches that once having been saved and resurrected with Christ spiritually within, we already receive our spiritual bodies to sit in heavenly places, while the mortal body still walks and talks on earth, And so it is not our mortal bodies that will be changed to spiritual and incorruptible, which of course is false:

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

This present mortal and corruptible body will be changed in the resurrection moment of Christ's return: corruptible is perishing mortality, not lustful sinning.

The false doctrine of the 'sinning' flesh is dead, leads directly to this mortal body not being resurrected, since that would be the 'old man of sin' receiving a new resurrected spiritual body. And so they teach instead that the resurrection as past: they have already recieved their spiritual bodies in heavenly places, just waiting for the old sinful one to die:

Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

Do you believe your souls has already recieved your resurrected spiritual body in heavenly places?

And so there is no sin nor law to sin in the flesh, but only the law of mortality.

Well! You just went DIRECTLY AGAINST THE SCRIPTURE right there bud. Apostle Paul explained that there IS a law operating within our fleshy members, and Paul called it "the law of sin":

Rom 7:24-25
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
KJV

Once again, this is the body of life with being wretchedly double hearted in the faith. He does not say this body of death, but the body of this death: this death being that of the soul's continued sins and trespasses with mortal body, even after the knowledge of gospel and law of the Spirit of life is heard and in the mind.

So then, if we live with the mind of Christ, then we walk after the Spirit by the law of the Spirit, but if we live with the flesh only, then we walk after the flesh by the law of sin: the law of sin and death is, that the soul which sinneth, it shall die.

Scripture does not say, the body which sinneth, it shall die.

 

[robert derrick]

Our bodies do nothing of themselves, and so neither can our flesh nor the devil be blamed for our souls sinning in the flesh by lust of the heart.

Well! AGAIN... you go DIRECTLY AGAINST THE SCRIPTURE!

Our flesh LUSTS cause most of our sins while alive in these flesh bodies.

The lusts of the flesh, is not the flesh lusting, nor is it the flesh's lust, as you put it. Neither is the lust of the eyes, the eyeballs' lust, nor is the lust of the world, the heaven and earth's lust of stars and trees and moons and flesh and grass. That is pagan spiritism 101: "there be evil spirits in them thar hills!"

Lust is spiritual and of the heart, and is owned by man: it is that lust that wars with all things, including our own flesh, so as to sin against our own bodies:

Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.

Our bodies are the innocent bystanders of our souls, that sin with the members of our flesh: the mortal flesh becomes the lust's flesh, the soul's lust for and with the flesh. That is the spiritual fornication of the soul with one's own body: to use the body for lust of the world.

And so, since you declare your body is to blame for your soul sinning, then I certainly take back my earlier commendation of your teaching: You do teach excuse for sinning of the soul, because of your flesh being made with sin by 'sinful' physical seed of man.

However, that is delusional according to Scripture: Your mortal body is neither sinful nor to blame, nor to be judged for sinning: it's all on you, so that you can neither say "The devil made me do it", much less "My body made me do it".

You are simply a sinner still under subjection to the things of this life, by the lust of your own soul, including servitude to your own mortal body. The devil continues to use your own hapless mortal body against you, by whispering unrighteous thoughts to sin with it.

It is the spirit of man that lusts and envies and sins, even against his own flesh:

Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?

For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

The old man of the soul, still not crucified to death, still lusts for the flesh against the Spirit of Christ, while the Spirit of Christ lusts against serving the flesh.

Are you saying the Spirit of God lusts sinfully? No, it is only the souls of men that lust sinfully for the flesh, but the Spirit of God is jealous for the soul not to.

But, sins your body has power of you by your onw subjection to it, as a tortoise to it's shell, then God cannot deliver you from your sins, since it's not your fleshy shell of a body that you need delivering from.

You obviously do not understand what this present flesh world is about, or if you did, you have forgotten. You might want to go back to Genesis 3 and begin all over to find that out.

There is no present 'flesh' world. There is the heaven and the earth, things both celestial and terrestrial, which includes the stars, the seas, the grass, the trees, and the flesh of every living creature on earth, including in the waters and in the sky.

The natural heaven and earth created by God is still good. Mortal yes, also good: there is no sin nor righteousness in any natural thing, and all such things are clean in and of themselves. (Rom 14:14)

However, the world of iniquity James speaks of is made by man sinning on earth: they hearken to the spirit of the world and the prince and power of the air, rather than to the commandment and Spirit of God, Which is what Adam and Eve did in the garden, and every soul since Adam has committed at least once, except Jesus.

I know that I am a soul with spiritual being put into mortal flesh, and I also know it is my soul that does any sinning or righteousness within the heart and with the flesh: none of my deeds with the body are in any way done by body itself.

I also know my mind is no more carnal, nor my soul sold under sin in Christ Jesus, but rather have full dominion over my body not to sin in the flesh:

But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Lest I, my soul and spirit, become a castaway from God, not my mortal body that will return to dust as it was so made by God. (Unless of course I remain steadfast in the faith, and the Lord returns while I am yet alive and remaining on earth.)

What you do not understand, by erring greatly in ignorance of the Scriptures as written, is that neither your body nor the devil will stand in your place, nor alongside you in the judgement.

Your body being in some way to blame for you sinning, is the most childish of all cop outs ever, which only unrepentant children do, and apparently foolish men of strange and delusion doctrine want to teach to do.

"Well, you see judge, According to the Bible, it's not really I that did that. No, it's actually this corrupt sinning body I was born with. In my mind where Christ lives, I really really didn't want to do that."

Right. As they say, tell it to the judge.

Is it any wonder you therefore refuse spiritual purity of the heart, that you may treat your body rightly at all times, and not sin against God with it??

 

[robert derrick]

Your words and error were clear--I quoted you.

But my casting pearls has a limit. You have reached that limit. As I said, it is enough.

Show the quote. Otherwise...

 

[ScottA]

Every error of misunderstanding or misinterpreting the scriptures is one of timing.

In other words, Time is of the world, but the things of God are not. Therefore, all errors of the things of God come from mixing the two.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

I would only differ with you about Jesus having lust in His heart: he is the only man not to allow lust into His heart, so that He might continue to choose the good and refuse the evil and not sin against His Father.

Lust in the heart is the beginning of sin, whereby we are enticed to sin within and with the body.

Sorry, but Lust Isn't the "Beginning of SIN" it's just the NORMAL HUMAN NATURE to desire this or that. Some lusts are GOOD (like the desire to follow God's leading into the ministry - etc) It's different in each individual, with some desires common to humans in general. If Jesus DIDN'T have LUST, then Heb 2:18, and 4:15 are LIES, and Jesus WAS NOT tempted in all respects AS WE ARE.

Jesus however never allowed his Lust for SIN to "Conceive" and birth Sinful Actions. We have an uneven record - SOME Lusts we don't allow to conceive, and others we do. BEING TEMPTED isn't SIN in and of itself. It's what we DO WITH THE TEMPTATION that" important.

 

[robert derrick]

Sorry, but Lust Isn't the "Beginning of SIN" it's just the NORMAL HUMAN NATURE to desire this or that. Some lusts are GOOD (like the desire to follow God's leading into the ministry - etc) It's different in each individual, with some desires common to humans in general.

Your differences of lusting is correct, thank you. I will remember it:

For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Good lust is against sinning, and sinful lust is for sinning.

If Jesus DIDN'T have LUST, then Heb 2:18, and 4:15 are LIES, and Jesus WAS NOT tempted in all respects AS WE ARE.

First you rightly point out the common lust of all living creatures created by God, but then you go on to impute lust for sin in Jesus' heart, which is where you err from the truth.

Jesus did lust, and He was zealous for the Spirit and good of God. He did not lust for sin. If He had, He would have sinned like all men who have allowed lust for sin into their hearts, just as Lucifer did:

Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

The point being that sinning begins within: it is spiritual first, then carnal with the flesh.

Lusting to sin is judged as sinning by God:

But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Lusting to sin is committing sin in sight of God within the heart, which is where God judges all things first:

But the LORD said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart.

Jesus however never allowed his Lust for SIN to "Conceive" and birth Sinful Actions. We have an uneven record - SOME Lusts we don't allow to conceive, and others we do. BEING TEMPTED isn't SIN in and of itself. It's what we DO WITH THE TEMPTATION that" important.

Jesus never allowed lust for sinning into His heart at all, as Lucifer, his following angels, and all men have done on earth.

And being born again of Him in our hearts, neither should we, now having power not to do so.

BEING TEMPTED isn't SIN in and of itself. It's what we DO WITH THE TEMPTATION that" important.

Being tempted to lust for sin is not sinning, but only being tempted to lust and doing so: lusting for sin is the sinning within first.

We must see with the spiritual eyes of God and all spiritual beings: before sin is done with the body, it is first conceived within the heart by lusting for it.

When we see we have lust in the heart to entertain unrighteous thoughts to do them, we are already unclean and sinning against God:

Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

Thoughts, intents, and imaginations of the heart and mind is the spiritual kingdom, whether it be of pure Light or lust for darkness.

All temptation of the devil begins with receiving his lust to sin, and if we do so, then we also will sin as he, and indeed have already sinned against God spiritually as he in the heart.

Only by having lust in the heart are we enticed by temptation to do it: no lust, no enticement, no sinning, no matter how much temptation of the devil is thrown at us.

Without lust in the heart, all the fiery darts are quenched and DOA. All the fowls of the air are chased away on sight.

If any man still has not been purified of the lust to sin in the heart, then he is not yet pure as Jesus was in all the days of His flesh.

Not doing bodily what we lust for inwardly, is not the righteousness and true holiness of God: being holy as He is holy, is by not having lust within at all.

Only the pure in heart as Jesus is, shall see God.

The pure in heart do not have lust to sin within, but only to do the will of God in His Spirit.

The kingdom of heaven is only within us, if we are purified of lust to sin in the heart, which is by receiving Jesus Christ with power to become sons of God, even as He is the Son of God.

Spiritual purity is the kingdom of God. Spiritual corruption is the kingdom of darkness, that we are translated out of by purifying our hearts from lust to sin, and so cleansing our hands of sinning in the flesh.

Jesus lusted like all men, just not with lust for sin.

 

[robert derrick]

Every error of misunderstanding or misinterpreting the scriptures is one of timing.

In other words, Time is of the world, but the things of God are not. Therefore, all errors of the things of God come from mixing the two.

I know your book now.

Sinning at any time is still sinning, whether by saint or sinner, and the soul does the sinning, not the body, and so the soul is judged dead for sinning against God, not the body.

Your teaching of the resurrection is past is woefully false: no man has yet to receive any immortal spiritual body, until the first bodily resurrection of the just.

That's why it is called a 'resurrection' of the body. Not a new gift in place of the old body.

We are first spiritually resurrected within the soul in this life, to be as we were first created alive and pure, but we will not have our first resurrected bodies forever, until we pass from this life and the old body is dead. Unless of course, we are alive and remaining in our mortal bodies at His return.

And I still don't see any quote of me saying things you ascribe to me. Things I would never say, because I wouldn't even think of them in the first place.

 

[ScottA]

I know your book now.

Sinning at any time is still sinning, whether by saint or sinner, and the soul does the sinning, not the body, and so the soul is judged dead for sinning against God, not the body.

Your teaching of the resurrection is past is woefully false: no man has yet to receive any immortal spiritual body, until the first bodily resurrection of the just.

That's why it is called a 'resurrection' of the body. Not a new gift in place of the old body.

We are first spiritually resurrected within the soul in this life, to be as we were first created alive and pure, but we will not have our first resurrected bodies forever, until we pass from this life and the old body is dead. Unless of course, we are alive and remaining in our mortal bodies at His return.

And I still don't see any quote of me saying things you ascribe to me. Things I would never say, because I wouldn't even think of them in the first place.

Apparently you didn't understand anything I told you. Still you preach.

 

[robert derrick]

Apparently you didn't understand anything I told you. Still you preach.

Apparently you don't remember everything you told me.

And not I'm not going to go back to find the quotes, where you say you have already recieved your spiritual body by your first resurrection, nor where you say you have arrived.

It took long enough to get a simple answer from you in things, but I've got enough now.

The sum of your mystery about times and ends and videos etc...is simple: It is no more I that sinneth, but only my old sinful flesh on earth.

You die to sins and trespasses, by dying to your body that sins and trespasses still, You've removed your soul from responsibility for the deeds of your body.

It is no longer your soul that sinneth, which cannot die, but only your old hapless sinner flesh, that is good as dead.

At one point I was indeed fascinated by your mishandling of Scripture, but in the end it was what I already knew it to be: a delusion made to reject the simple truth that we are not justified by faith alone, but with works.

Although, I was surprised when you showed exactly how someone could teach that the resurrection is past. That was unique. But makes more sense that people walking around thinking their bodies on earth were already their resurrected bodies.

Like the man said, "I've understood your words all too well, Persian." It's you who should be reconsider them.

This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Jesus never allowed lust for sinning into His heart at all

If Jesus DIDN'T have LUST toward SIN, then Heb 2:18, and 4:15 are LIES, and Jesus WAS NOT tempted in all respects AS WE ARE.

 

[ScottA]

Apparently you don't remember everything you told me.

And not I'm not going to go back to find the quotes, where you say you have already recieved your spiritual body by your first resurrection, nor where you say you have arrived.

It took long enough to get a simple answer from you in things, but I've got enough now.

The sum of your mystery about times and ends and videos etc...is simple: It is no more I that sinneth, but only my old sinful flesh on earth.

You die to sins and trespasses, by dying to your body that sins and trespasses still, You've removed your soul from responsibility for the deeds of your body.

It is no longer your soul that sinneth, which cannot die, but only your old hapless sinner flesh, that is good as dead.

At one point I was indeed fascinated by your mishandling of Scripture, but in the end it was what I already knew it to be: a delusion made to reject the simple truth that we are not justified by faith alone, but with works.

Although, I was surprised when you showed exactly how someone could teach that the resurrection is past. That was unique. But makes more sense that people walking around thinking their bodies on earth were already their resurrected bodies.

Like the man said, "I've understood your words all too well, Persian." It's you who should be reconsider them.

This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith.

Like I said.

 

[robert derrick]

If Jesus DIDN'T have LUST toward SIN, then Heb 2:18, and 4:15 are LIES, and Jesus WAS NOT tempted in all respects AS WE ARE.

I've tried correcting you. If all you're going to do is recite your own mantra, without responding to the correction, then it is a waste of time.

Enduring temptation to lust for sin within the heart is for all men, including Jesus. Being enticed with temptation by lust for sin is for all sinners, which is at least once for all men, and never was for Jesus.

Lust in the heart for sin is judged as sinning by God: Jesus was never guilty of sin by lusting for sin in the heart. He never looked upon a woman to lust after her, and so was never righteously judged an adulterer.

At this point, you are only seeking to justify your ongoing sinful lusting, that you may not always do with the flesh, but is always judged as sinning within by God: I was the same as you, until I obeyed the commandment to purify my heart of all such lusting for sin. Now I know the blessing of being spiritual pure in heart, so that now, like Jesus did in the days of His flesh, I only endure the temptation to lust again, which is DOA at the door.

Jesus inhabits the praises of the pure in heart: He does not fellowship with the devil in an unclean heart lusting for sin, even if not doing it bodily.

Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

I've tried correcting you.

Your "correction" is ignored.