Not Born with Sin Nature

[ScottA]

Still... Hebrews 4:12 reveals God created flesh man with 3 parts...

1. flesh body (the "marrow" of Hebrews 4:12)
2. spirit
3. soul

The orthodox Jews wrongly believe that the 'soul' part is part of our fleshy makeup. It is not. Our 'soul' is about our 'person', our 'Id' one might say, the part that contains our personality, our individual, what makes 'you'.

The reason why the orthodox Jews believe in 'soul sleep' is because they wrongly believe the 'soul' is part of the flesh, so it must be dead along with our flesh body in a casket or tomb, and God must resurrect both our flesh and soul together at the resurrection. This is not what The New Testament teaches though. Yet that doctrine is still popular among the Jews simply because the majority of them don't believe on Jesus Christ, and thus do not recognize The New Testament Books which teaches differently.

The New Testament instead teaches that our soul with spirit can be separated. And at death of our flesh body, that is exactly what happens, our flesh part goes back to the earthly elements where it came from. But our soul with spirit goes back to God Who gave it. That teaching partially is actually from Ecclesiastes 12:5-7, but it only mentions our 'spirit' going back to God, and most scholars interpret that "spirit" there to be nothing more than a force that is in all living things.

The reality though, is that our 'spirit' that dwells inside our flesh, is actually a type of heavenly body of that other dimension. It is what Apostle Paul called the "spiritual body" in 1 Corinthians 15, and in 2 Corinthians 5, Paul called it a house not made with hands, but a body eternal in the heavens. So to be more exact per New Testament Scripture, our created makeup is...

1. flesh material from the earth, material matter and that is all, no mind, no spirit, just dust of the earth, dirt.
2. "spiritual body", the body type of the heavenly order, what Paul also called the "image of the heavenly" in 1 Corinthians 15, and a house not made with hands, but eternal in the heavens, per 2 Corinthians 5. This body is in a liable to die state without Christ.
3. soul - the 'you' part, and it is in a mortal liable to die state until one accepts Jesus Christ as their Savior.

So wherever one's soul is, in a flesh body, or in the heavenly, the soul needs a body to dwell in, a 'house' or 'tabernacle' Apostle Paul called it in 2 Corinthians 5. The "spiritual body" is a heavenly 'house' for our soul. Our flesh body is an earthly house for our spirit and soul. At flesh death, we put off our earthly house, don't need it anymore, ever.

I don't disagree with what you are saying here, but would offer that what you have presented--as do the scriptures, is merely the mechanics of the foreshadowing made in the flesh, compared with their fulfillment in the Spirit. Which is not to say, as it is written, "the dead do not rise" as some preached. But rather that they do, but do so according to the Spirit, rather than according to the flesh--which is taught differently to those of the flesh during the Old Testament times, than to those of the Spirit and the New Testament times...as you have quoted it.

 

[ScottA]

That idea that Scripture combines the soul with flesh could be argued too, because Jesus said to not fear those who can kill our flesh body, but not our soul, showing our soul also is separate from our flesh. Old Testament Scripture kind of uses the idea of the soul in a flesh sense, but The New Testament Scriptures do not.

Yes, but that perhaps is another discussion. What I was referring to is what God and Christ had combined regarding whether or not the flesh is born with a sin nature. Good point though.

 

[robert derrick]

You must forgive me, but when people write long posts of exhortation concerning themselves and where they perceive to be at in the faith, it always reminds of the people I have met who have done this in churches. They never could live up to what they wanted to portray of themselves. More humble people outshone them where it mattered most
God bless

Forgive you for what? Declining spiritual purity? Watching for all the righteous to fall? You certainly don't need forgiveness for humbly outshining them all where it matters most, right? You've plainly got that one covered.

 

[stephen64]

Forgive you for what? Declining spiritual purity? Watching for all the righteous to fall? You certainly don't need forgiveness for humbly outshining them all where it matters most, right? You've plainly got that one covered.

You stated to me that not obeying Christ's commands in the Gospels was sin. I know you do not even try and obey each and every literal command of Christ in the Gospels. I'm sure you will try and excuse yourself, but by your own statement you commit sin, and on a very regular basis. So instead of looking at the speck in someone elses eye, I suggest you look to yourself.

 

[robert derrick]

That is not my distinction, but the distinction made by Christ.

The problem is that you seem to be equating the soul with the spirit--which Christ does not do, but just the opposite. To the contrary, the scriptures combine the flesh with the soul, but neither with the spirit, as one must be born separately [again] of the Spirit.

So, no, the flesh of men is not born with that spirit that you seem to assume.

Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.

When God breathed into the body of flesh, then man became a living soul by the Spirit of God. The spirit of man is within the soul and is the mind of man: the mind of the spirit.

Your error is that flesh is born with anything other than flesh. You are putting the flesh first, and then the soul and spirit.

Man is not a body born with soul or spirit. Man is a soul with spiritual being in mortal body.

I believe I just answered this.

No, but the flesh being created in the image of God is, unlike God is flesh, but having a soul, which is the ability to choose to sin or not, which is the ability to choose life or death.

The flesh is not created in the image of God, but the living soul is. And so you confirm the error that man is a body of flesh having a soul.

And yet the flesh is born with this nature, not separate, but joined together by God in one body...making it not incorrect to say "born with a sin nature." If it were not so, there would be no need for a Savior, which need is established by God. Again, I get your point. But why dissect what God has joined together in one body of flesh?

And once again, you don't get the point. The only nature any flesh is born with is mortality, not that of sin nor righteousness, nor with ability to choose life or death. You make the physical body to be a person, and the child of the devil: a personal servant of his. It is the soul that gives himself to the devil to do his will.

The mind and heart of a soul is not the brain and bloodpump of the physical body: the flesh is nothing, and is not to blame for sins, but the soul moving the body is the judged for sinning with the flesh.

There would be no need for the Saviour, if souls born into mortal flesh did not sin with the flesh, but the first one did, and every other did. Because we are made flesh, unlike the angels, then we have opportunity to be reborn anew once more. The angels do not: if they sin they are forever condemned, and two-thirds of them have not.

Again, I get your point. But why dissect what God has joined together in one body of flesh?

Because God does: the immortal soul which sinneth, it shall die. Not the body which is made mortal from the beginning.

Being made mortal is natural and is good. There's nothing evil about God making His natural creation mortal.

The soul and body are not one flesh, because neither the soul nor the spirit are the mortal body:

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

You are in error: the body and soul are not one flesh. As faith without works is nothing and dead, so is the body without the spirit and soul.

All bodies are made mortal and can be killed at any time, but only the soul which sinneth can kill the soul.

It is what Jesus said that makes sense. Therefore, I do not assume the flesh is born with the spirit, but rather that we must also be born [again] of the Spirit.

The flesh is born of flesh and with flesh only. All souls are created living by the Spirit of God from the beginning. Being born again is not in the flesh, nor with the flesh, but is the soul being made alive again as in the beginning: a new creature and start with the same mortal body.

The flesh is born with nothing other than flesh and is made of nothing other than dust.

Again, the scriptures do not say "The soul of man is a spiritual being created in God's image", but rather that the flesh is born with a soul--but not of the Spirit. To say otherwise is to call Jesus a liar. But this point of confusion...is simply a mistake that should be corrected to align with the whole word of God and Christ.

It is already show the body is not born with a soul nor with spirit, because the body will be killed, but not the soul, except it sinneth.

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

You speak of the flesh being born with a soul. It is not. The flesh is formed of dust, which is nothing and grass. When God breathes His Spirit into the flesh, then is the living soul born within the body: man is a living soul with a body, not a body with a soul.

The spirit of man is the candle of the LORD, searching all the inward parts of the belly. The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.

Man is a spiritual being with a spirit, which as you say flesh is not born of nor with. Flesh is made for man's soul and spirit to dwell in on earth for a season or mortal time of the body.

Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

All souls are made by God and for God and are God's. Not bodies of flesh that are just mortally made of dust: the body is the wood framing of the house. The soul and spirit are the life and mind living within the house.

There is no sin spirit nor nature of wood framing, nor of grass bodies.

As for being just like the animals...No, but like the animals having the breath of animals, but distinct from the animals by the dominion given by God to be over the animals by one difference--that is the ability to choose life and death in his soul.

No living creature is a body with a spirit, but a spirit created by God with a body. Men are living souls with spiritual being, not animals. That is why man has power and commandment to have dominion over the earth of all living creatures: man thinks, intends, and imagines. Aminals do not.

Man is lightened with the light of Christ when made a living soul in His image. Animals are not.

As for being "clothed in natural bodies"--it is not that Spirit of God that resides therein from birth. Yes, many refer to that breath of life given by God first in the garden as spirit, but Christ did not. This is error--error against the teachings of Christ.

The LORD was the Word with God and Christ, Who also made the covenant with Abraham by promise:

And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

Thus, that life is not life according to God, therefore we must also be born [again] of that Spirit. That would-be life then is life unto death, rather than life unto life--which is not given to the flesh, whether man or animal. Meaning that the only thing that makes man different from the animals, is that he is created in the image of God which comes with the ability to choose life or death--this is a property unique to the soul of mankind for having been created in the image of God.

The mortal life of the body is not eternal life of God. That 'would-be-life unto death' is the mortal life of the flesh and all living creatures, including all mortal things in heaven and earth, both celestial and terrestrial.

Life unto life is I am, that I am: the eternal life of Christ that is in the soul of man, first living as a newborn babe from the womb, and then living again as a newborn babe in Christ.

All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

Your doctrine is false. The life and light of Christ is breathed into every living soul created by Him, first with Adam in body of dust, and now with all men in fleshy wombs of women.

The mortal flesh is nothing and of no profit, but the immortal soul is everything:

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

It is the spirit in man that moves the body of man, even as the spirit of all living creatures on earth in their natural bodies.

We are souls with bodies, not bodies with souls. All newborn souls are living and good without sin, all souls sinning are dead, and all souls not sinning are born and alive again.

 

[ScottA]

Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.

When God breathed into the body of flesh, then man became a living soul by the Spirit of God. The spirit of man is within the soul and is the mind of man: the mind of the spirit.

Your error is that flesh is born with anything other than flesh. You are putting the flesh first, and then the soul and spirit.

Man is not a body born with soul or spirit. Man is a soul with spiritual being in mortal body.

No, that is backwards. You are out of order.

Man was first created as a mere "image" of God, then "breathed into his nostrils the breath of life." The passage is a foreshadow of all that was included since before the foundation of the world--but not given until it was attained by Christ. As it is written:

1 Corinthians 15:45
And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.​

 

[ScottA]

The flesh is not created in the image of God, but the living soul is. And so you confirm the error that man is a body of flesh having a soul.

No, it is as I said, the creation was only an "image" of what was to come.

 

[ScottA]

Because God does: the immortal soul which sinneth, it shall die. Not the body which is made mortal from the beginning.

Being made mortal is natural and is good. There's nothing evil about God making His natural creation mortal.

The soul and body are not one flesh, because neither the soul nor the spirit are the mortal body:

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

You are in error: the body and soul are not one flesh. As faith without works is nothing and dead, so is the body without the spirit and soul.

All bodies are made mortal and can be killed at any time, but only the soul which sinneth can kill the soul.

Again you are equating what God has not equated, but has defined differently than you are doing here of your own mind.

In the beginning God referred to His creation as "good", even "very good"--which is not the same as "perfect" which does not come until Christ. But you have assumed that good is perfect and the soul perfect, when He does not present it that way at all, but only after it is attained by Christ--"a life-giving Spirit."

Granted, if you miss that what was written of the beginning was a foreshadowing, the whole truth would not be clear. But scripture doesn't work that way, but "precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept, line upon line, line upon line, here a little, there a little"...things which have not been made clear until these last days. Which in time leaves some things to be corrected.

 

[ScottA]

The flesh is born of flesh and with flesh only. All souls are created living by the Spirit of God from the beginning. Being born again is not in the flesh, nor with the flesh, but is the soul being made alive again as in the beginning: a new creature and start with the same mortal body.

The flesh is born with nothing other than flesh and is made of nothing other than dust.

It is already show the body is not born with a soul nor with spirit, because the body will be killed, but not the soul, except it sinneth.

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

You speak of the flesh being born with a soul. It is not. The flesh is formed of dust, which is nothing and grass. When God breathes His Spirit into the flesh, then is the living soul born within the body: man is a living soul with a body, not a body with a soul.

The spirit of man is the candle of the LORD, searching all the inward parts of the belly. The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.

Man is a spiritual being with a spirit, which as you say flesh is not born of nor with. Flesh is made for man's soul and spirit to dwell in on earth for a season or mortal time of the body.

Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

All souls are made by God and for God and are God's. Not bodies of flesh that are just mortally made of dust: the body is the wood framing of the house. The soul and spirit are the life and mind living within the house.

There is no sin spirit nor nature of wood framing, nor of grass bodies.

No living creature is a body with a spirit, but a spirit created by God with a body. Men are living souls with spiritual being, not animals. That is why man has power and commandment to have dominion over the earth of all living creatures: man thinks, intends, and imagines. Aminals do not.

Man is lightened with the light of Christ when made a living soul in His image. Animals are not.

The LORD was the Word with God and Christ, Who also made the covenant with Abraham by promise:

And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

The mortal life of the body is not eternal life of God. That 'would-be-life unto death' is the mortal life of the flesh and all living creatures, including all mortal things in heaven and earth, both celestial and terrestrial.

Life unto life is I am, that I am: the eternal life of Christ that is in the soul of man, first living as a newborn babe from the womb, and then living again as a newborn babe in Christ.

All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

Your doctrine is false. The life and light of Christ is breathed into every living soul created by Him, first with Adam in body of dust, and now with all men in fleshy wombs of women.

The mortal flesh is nothing and of no profit, but the immortal soul is everything:

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

It is the spirit in man that moves the body of man, even as the spirit of all living creatures on earth in their natural bodies.

We are souls with bodies, not bodies with souls. All newborn souls are living and good without sin, all souls sinning are dead, and all souls not sinning are born and alive again.

I am aware of these things you bring up. But you have assumed things that God has not presented as such. Contrary to what you say:

• Good is not perfect.
• The soul is not the spirit (even if all things were of God whom is spirit). Nor are all spirits good.
• Mankind is captive without a Savior.
• One must be born again to receive the spirit of God.

The perfection that you yourself have assign to the soul according to your own beliefs, does not come at the birth of the flesh, or even with the first breath, but only through Christ. Anything else is a false gospel.

It is enough.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

I use Blue Letter Bible, with simple word search. I no longer take time to write down verse number, unless they are obscure. I take time now with you to explain, because I know you are a sincere Christian.

And you can read the Scriptures provided with the offered conclusion to agree or not. They are not out of context. I don't do that.

They stand alone: God only judges every person by their works, not by their birth into the world.

"Sin Nature" or the impression that Adam's "Nature" changed (after he tossed God under the bus and chose satan's way instead) seems to be almost a "Mantra" here.

In fact Adam had a HUMAN NATURE, just like Me and Jesus (who was tempted in all respects as WE ARE). James 1 informs us how TEMPTATION works - and it all starts with OUR LUST, which Adam, Me and Jesus all have. The difference, of course is that Jesus - BEING TEMPTED, didn't allow the temptation to "Concieve" and become sinful acts, like we do.

Harold Ockengae once said: "you Can't stop the birds from flying overhead, but you CAN stop them from building a nest in your hair" - as Jesus did.

 

[Davy]

I don't disagree with what you are saying here, but would offer that what you have presented--as do the scriptures, is merely the mechanics of the foreshadowing made in the flesh, compared with their fulfillment in the Spirit. Which is not to say, as it is written, "the dead do not rise" as some preached. But rather that they do, but do so according to the Spirit, rather than according to the flesh--which is taught differently to those of the flesh during the Old Testament times, than to those of the Spirit and the New Testament times...as you have quoted it.

Yep! And that Bible teaching, actually per... God's Holy Writ, is not a philosophical treatise like many men turn it into. The simplicity that is God's Word is about His Word of Truth giving us real understanding, keeping things simple so a little child may grasp it. When man tries to turn it into a glorious personal essay, doing that always takes away from the simplicity of God's Word, and the uneducated will think that man is trying to show off his university education, which in many cases is very true.

 

[Davy]

Yes, but that perhaps is another discussion. What I was referring to is what God and Christ had combined regarding whether or not the flesh is born with a sin nature. Good point though.

Well, terms like 'sin nature' doesn't describe what Apostle Paul taught in Romans 7 about our flesh being the cause of most of our sin. Paul keeps it simple, not philosophical.

Rom 7:14-23
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
KJV

Thus we are governed by two separate laws, the law of sin that is in our fleshy members, and then the law of God after the inward man, pointing to our spirit. Paul says the two war against each other. That means they are two completely separate things. And that is how those in Christ should teach them.

But some brethren are wrongly taught that our flesh can be made perfect, which is not Biblical at all.

 

[ScottA]

Good...a bit philosophical, but good.

 

[stephen64]

Well, terms like 'sin nature' doesn't describe what Apostle Paul taught in Romans 7 about our flesh being the cause of most of our sin. Paul keeps it simple, not philosophical.

Rom 7:14-23
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
KJV

Thus we are governed by two separate laws, the law of sin that is in our fleshy members, and then the law of God after the inward man, pointing to our spirit. Paul says the two war against each other. That means they are two completely separate things. And that is how those in Christ should teach them.

But some brethren are wrongly taught that our flesh can be made perfect, which is not Biblical at all.

Romans 7:14-24 is Paul reflecting on his life as a Pharisee NOT as a Christian. Though he speaks in the present tense, this was often done then concerning matters of the past for dramatic effect. Paul wrote romans towards the end of his life. Would we really believe for the whole of his Christian life, he could not do the good he wanted to do, but only the evil he did not want to do he did? He had the desire to do what is good but he could not carry it out? Its all about sin and defeat, no victory at all. That’s not Paul’s message of Christianity is it. In verse 14 he states he is sold as a slave to sin, in ch6:16 he writes: Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? If Paul is speaking of his Christian life in 7:14-24 he is condemning himself according to what he wrote. A slave always has a master. In rom 7:14 Paul states he is sold as a slave to sin, so sin is Paul’s master. Yet in 6:14 he wrote: For sin shall no longer be your master for you are not under law but under grace. Now that’s the core of Paul’s message. So either he lived under the law as a Pharisee in ch7:14-24 or he preached a message that couldn’t be reflected in his own life.

Ch 7:14-24 is all about coveting, what goes on, on the inside of man, Paul is going into detail concenring what he wrote in 7-11. For those five verses are all about being condemned by sin, the example given: Thou shalt not covet.
BTW
If you believe Paul was speaking of his life as a pharisee in rom 7:14-24 that does not mean you are speaking of sinless perfection for a believer. There is an immense difference between only sin and defeat, and sinless perfection, and the christian is between the two

 

[EloyCraft]

Gen.2

17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Gen 3

And they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God amongst the trees of the garden.

Romans 7

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

Human nature wounded by the consequence of sin.

Body and soul no longer united in service to life but divided by the bodies need to survive.

 

[robert derrick]

"Sin Nature" or the impression that Adam's "Nature" changed (after he tossed God under the bus and chose satan's way instead) seems to be almost a "Mantra" here.

In fact Adam had a HUMAN NATURE, just like Me and Jesus (who was tempted in all respects as WE ARE). James 1 informs us how TEMPTATION works - and it all starts with OUR LUST, which Adam, Me and Jesus all have. The difference, of course is that Jesus - BEING TEMPTED, didn't allow the temptation to "Concieve" and become sinful acts, like we do.

Harold Ockengae once said: "you Can't stop the birds from flying overhead, but you CAN stop them from building a nest in your hair" - as Jesus did.

Amen, someone who isn't reading into the Bible what they want to see.

The human nature being the same nature of all living creatures on earth: Mortal. All flesh and grass are mortal with nothing sinful nor righteous about them. Just good because God created them and said so.

And Jesus was likewise made of mortal flesh by the seed of David in Mary's womb. Simple.

James 1 informs us how TEMPTATION works - and it all starts with OUR LUST, which Adam, Me and Jesus all have. The difference, of course is that Jesus - BEING TEMPTED, didn't allow the temptation to "Concieve" and become sinful acts, like we do.

Harold Ockengae once said: "you Can't stop the birds from flying overhead, but you CAN stop them from building a nest in your hair" - as Jesus did.

Exactly. James was refuting the accusation against God, that he tempts man to sin, because He made man with sinful flesh, which is a lie of the devil to justify sinners in their sinning. "It's not my fault God made me this way."

I would only differ with you about Jesus having lust in His heart: he is the only man not to allow lust into His heart, so that He might continue to choose the good and refuse the evil and not sin against His Father.

Lust in the heart is the beginning of sin, whereby we are enticed to sin within and with the body.

The nature of sin and righteousness is spiritual: both begin within the heart, whether that of lust unto sin and trespass, or that of purity unto righteousness and true holiness.

Harold Ockengae once said: "you Can't stop the birds from flying overhead, but you CAN stop them from building a nest in your hair" - as Jesus did.

The point being that sin begins in the heart with lust, and so we are to guard our pure hearts, stir up our pure minds, and keep ourselves from lusting within and wining with the flesh:

And when the fowls came down upon the carcases, Abram drove them away.

Claiming we are born with a sin nature for life is the favorite go-to excuse for continuing to sin unto the end. It is proven by the fact, that all who believe it are OSAS sinners for life.

 

[robert derrick]

Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

This is the only Scripture that even appears to support man being born with sinful physical seed, which it does not.

The corruptible here is not sinful, but only mortal: perishing, perishable, not immortal. It simply confirms John 1, that we becomes sons of God only by being born of God, and not by being born of blood nor will of man: our physical blood line and heritage, which the unbelieving Jews trust in, is nothing to God in Christ Jesus.

Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers.

The physical seed of man is just as corruptible, perishable, and mortal as gold and silver, and so just as worthless to becoming sons of God.

Neither flesh, nor grass, nor gold, nor silver, nor money, nor any corruptible natural things in heaven and in earth, including the celestial stars, and terrestrial mountains, are sinful nor righteous in nature: they are nothing of themselves, but God who created them, and the spirits He puts into all living creatures to breathe and move upon the earth:

I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

Unrepentant sinners want their flesh to be unclean, so that they can blame their bodies on their lust of heart: to them, it is their favorite excuse for lusting after the flesh.

 

[robert derrick]

No, that is backwards. You are out of order.

Man was first created as a mere "image" of God, then "breathed into his nostrils the breath of life." The passage is a foreshadow of all that was included since before the foundation of the world--but not given until it was attained by Christ. As it is written:

1 Corinthians 15:45
And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.​

Good try, however, as it is written, Man became a living soul, only after God breathed His Spirit into the body of dust, which was nothing but dust, until the spiritual being of man was dwelling therein.

The earthen vessel is no more sinful than any other clay pot. The challenge to God the Potter was not about being made a sinner, but about being made mortal in the flesh, and so a little lower than the other created spiritual beings called angels.

Your translation also proves two other things: that the soul of man is made living by God, and that we are spiritual living beings housed in mortal bodies of dust and grass.

 

[robert derrick]

No, it is as I said, the creation was only an "image" of what was to come.

I don't read that. You'll need to provide Scripture. The heaven and earth were not created an image of anything, not of present nor to come. Scripture does not say the first heaven and earth are an image of the new heavens and earth, especially since the new earth will have no more sea.

The priestly service of the worldly tabernacle was only a foreshadowing of things to come in the priesthood of Christ and His saints.

The physical shape of man was made by God for natural uses of a spiritual being in flesh on earth, as opposed to all other living creatures.

Jesus therefore took on that same physical form of man, being made of man's physical seed after his kind:

A man in heaven did not come to pass, until the man Christ Jesus ascended into heaven after the days of His flesh on earth and resurrection with spiritual body, which is in the glorified shape of the first Adam on earth.

And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

And so it is the same for the man yielding seed after his kind, which is also just as good as grass and herb and tree.

 

[robert derrick]

Again you are equating what God has not equated, but has defined differently than you are doing here of your own mind.

I provide to my mid what is a reasonable and normal sense of what is written. No one has shown otherwise, and so I keep it as such.

In the beginning God referred to His creation as "good", even "very good"--which is not the same as "perfect" which does not come until Christ. But you have assumed that good is perfect and the soul perfect, when He does not present it that way at all, but only after it is attained by Christ--"a life-giving Spirit."

I appreciate your confusion and desire for me to clarify: when speaking of the making of things by God, He makes them good and perfect: perfectly well done. Nothing is made by Him with sin, neither spirit nor flesh.

Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Are you saying that Lucifer, or any spiritual being including the soul of man, was not created perfect in every way? Are you saying that anything created naturally on earth, whether flesh or grass, was not created good?

Your confusion is based upon your false doctrine of natural things, or any creature spiritual or nature, being created sinful by God: God is the only Creator and Maker of anything, whether spirit or flesh. The devil nor man creates anything, neither flesh nor spirit.

When Scripture speaks of natural things being created by God an pronounced good, it has nothing to do with sin nor righteousness, but simply that being created mortal by God is good: it is good to be in mortal bodies on earth.

The false doctrine of sin nature and spirit being in mortal flesh is a Christianized pagan spiritism, such as spirits being in the trees and waters and gold showers.

God makes all natural things good and well done as grass, flesh, and trees, which has nothing to do righteousness or sin, and He makes all spiritual being perfect in every way, which is without sin nor error. That is Scripture.

The only difference being between spirit and nature, is that spiritual beings can corrupt themselves, and so were made perfect in every way, until iniquity and lust are found within them. Which is Scripture.

But you have assumed that good is perfect and the soul perfect, when He does not present it that way at all, but only after it is attained by Christ--"a life-giving Spirit."

As noted above, you assumed I was saying something I was not, which is based upon your own presumed false doctrine of sinful nature of flesh: the nature of all grass, flesh, trees, moons, stars is mortal, neither sinful nor righteous: none of it being with God's Spirit in that flesh or tree or river, which is Christianized pagan spiritism.

But the soul of man, all with Lucifer and all created spiritual beings, is created good and perfect in every way by His life-giving breath of Spirit. And so, unlike all other things celestial and terrestrial, spiritual beings have the power of thought, intent, and imagination to choose evil rather than remain good and righteous with God. A third of the angels did not, and no man did until Jesus.

And so, all things are created good and perfectly well done by God, but not all spiritual beings remain good and righteous and pure with God: Jesus was the first man in mortal flesh to do so unto the end.