Not by works - but by faith

[FollowHim]

And water does not turn into wine. Are you saying God cannot perform miracles?

You’re a bit like the disciples who stopped following Jesus when they heard Him say, “he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day” (John 6:54), except you walk away from His Church, which offers Christ’s flesh and blood in the Sacrament of the Eucharist (transubstantiation).

I accept the doctrine of the Real Presence only because that is what Christ Church teaches - I learnt from the twelve apostles, who accepted Jesus’ strange words because they trusted Him and believed He had “the words of eternal life”. The Catholic Church also has “the words of eternal life” because she it the “fullness” of Christ (Eph 1:22-23). It is only in the Catholic and Orthodox Churches that a believer can eat Christ’s flesh and drink His blood (John 6:54).

The Eucharist is symbolic in the sense that the forms of bread and wine are retained, but at the same time they are the body and blood of Christ. God does not expect us to eat and drink Christ’s body and blood in the form of actual flesh and blood.

Miracles happen for a reason. Celebrating Jesus's sacrifice is central to our walk, which is the miracle, a physical transformation is not needed and serves no purpose.

The idea a man dressed up in robes has the authority to perform a miracle like this is absurd. Jesus is all about the way we walk with a cleansed heart in every believer.

Layering faith with a priesthood called father, is not His way but rather play acting spirituality. It looks real like an idol but has a heart of stone.

I respect people's faith, their desire, but point out it's empty result. God bless you

 

[Joseph77]

The idea a man dressed up in robes has the authority to perform a miracle like this is absurd.

Yes, and not just absurd, but a known abomination and falsehood perpetrated on the people for thousands of years.
Especially since it violates Scripture repeatedly.

 

[RogerDC]

if I lose my faith, I believe God has failed me, and he(like humans) is no longer trustworthy.

Sounds suspiciously like Calvinist nonsense to me. Faith is a decision you make as a result of your own free will. God doesn’t make that decision for you. Or does God create human robots?

Jesus said some believers will lose their faith (Luke 8:13). So does Heb 6:4-6. Go on atheist online forums and you will find thousands of former Christians who say they once had faith, but lost it.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Sounds suspiciously like Calvinist nonsense to me. Faith is a decision you make as a result of your own free will. God doesn’t make that decision for you. Or does God create human robots?

Jesus said some believers will lose their faith (Luke 8:13). So does Heb 6:4-6. Go on atheist online forums and you will find thousands of former Christians who say they once had faith, but lost it.

Sounds suspiciously arminian or catholic to me

You lose faith in people because they fail you continually, and you realise to further trust in them would be foolish

You lose faith in your boss when he fails you continually, and becomes untrustworthy

You lose faith in friends, when they turn on you, or prove to be untrustworthy, and unreliable many times over

You lose faith in loved ones again, when they prove to be unreliable and untrustworthy

in the same token, they ONLY way you would lose faith in God is if you deem God to be unreliable or untrustworthy. When means he has done something to make you feel this way continually.

But when your stuck in religion and religious thoughts, We fail to see these realities.

 

[FollowHim]

Poetry, a Catholic supporter arguing with a join the club and you are in.

The subject is faith in Christ saves us, not what theology or church we follow. Jesus said simply no fruit you will die, be up rooted, rejected.

It is a warning, only reality matters, from deep in our hearts to everything we do and say. Peter was devastated by denying Jesus, when he was confused and not focused. Jesus knew how close he came to failure, yet some talk like everything is sealed and certain, like a fool with a fake pardon, no matter how much they believe it is still fake. Yes Jesus is simple, it's us who excuse sin so quickly to our death.

 

[FollowHim]

Do we know our reality in Christ?
That is hard question. John and Peter answered this by looking at our hearts and what we do and desire.
In Christ we will always be humble, needy, poor and weak, because there is no pride possible next to the Lamb but worship.

Some talk about fruit inspectors, not realising we inspect and test ourselves to make sure we have a right appreciation of where we are. Jesus believed in us, so we need to appreciate His work and His grace in one another and ourselves

This coronovirus is a war, families ripped from loved ones, medical people seeing death with no answers, harsh. And the secure, the over indulgent, the secure will be shocked, brought low, broken, like not seen before in our lifetime. Lord have mercy on us all, God bless you.

 

[Paul Christensen]

Sounds suspiciously like Calvinist nonsense to me. Faith is a decision you make as a result of your own free will. God doesn’t make that decision for you. Or does God create human robots?

Jesus said some believers will lose their faith (Luke 8:13). So does Heb 6:4-6. Go on atheist online forums and you will find thousands of former Christians who say they once had faith, but lost it.

Paul says that we are saved by God's mercy and grace through faith in the finished work of Christ.
James says that if our faith in Christ is genuine, we demonstrate it through forsaking the works of the flesh and walking in the Spirit.

This means that faith in Christ produces salvation and the demonstration of works, but works do not produce salvation, they are the result of salvation, but they are necessary to ensure that we don't end up being hypocrites whose lives don't match our Christian profession.

 

[RogerDC]

Paul says that we are saved by God's mercy and grace through faith in the finished work of Christ.
James says that if our faith in Christ is genuine, we demonstrate it through forsaking the works of the flesh and walking in the Spirit.

This means that faith in Christ produces salvation and the demonstration of works, but works do not produce salvation, they are the result of salvation, but they are necessary to ensure that we don't end up being hypocrites whose lives don't match our Christian profession.

If works are necessary, then obviously we are saved by faith and works, not faith alone, as James 2:24, 26 clearly indicate ... as do many other verses from the NT.

 

[Paul Christensen]

If works are necessary, we are saved by faith and works, not faith alone, as James 2:24, 26 clearly indicate ... as do many other verses from the NT.

The problem is that anyone who depends on works to be saved, he has to have done them perfectly from his youth up. I don't know anyone who has kept good works to perfection. do you?

The Scripture says that if there is even one minor violation of the Law from the youth up, then the Law has been broken and the perfection required for salvation is lost. This means, that none of us can be saved, because we will be judged on our failure to do good works, and not good works that we have done. This is the same if a person who has been caught speeding, and is given a fine, but the person says, "I have kept the speed limit at other times", but the judge will say, "You are here because you broke the speed limit this time and so you will have to pay the fine".

So, if a person is depending on good works for salvation can't be saved, because he cannot do the good works to absolute perfection. The Scripture says that he is choosing to be subject to the Law, then he is required to live by them without a single fault ever.

 

[RogerDC]

in the same token, they ONLY way you would lose faith in God is if you deem God to be unreliable or untrustworthy. When means he has done something to make you feel this way continually.

So none of those thousands of atheists online who say they were once devout Christians never had faith? Those Christians pastors who became atheists never had faith?

 

[RogerDC]

You tell me why the church burnt heretics at the stake?

It’s my understanding that it was not the Church that burnt heretics to death, but the State. Catholics who sent heretics to their death (by handing them over to the State for execution) believed they were doing God’s work, by eliminating enemies of the Church, whom they saw as enemies of Christ and thus worthy of death. Enemies of the Church were also considered enemies of the State, and heretics were considered as we might today consider traitors of the nation, guilty of treason and espionage .

It is odd that inquisitors where empowered by the pope to execute people after trials and torture yet some seem to want to deny this.

Like I said, it’s my understanding that it was not the Church that put heretics to death, but the State. Even if it is true that Pope condoned these executions, it doesn’t mean the Catholic Church is not what she claims to be - the one, true Church founded by Christ.

As for Catholics denying that these things happened, I’ve never encountered a Catholic who denies that certain Catholics in the past did not act in a manner befitting their calling. However, there are many Catholics who deny the biased, false, mendacious, exaggerated, sometimes absurd claims made by certain non-Catholic Christians pertaining to what happened in Europe hundreds of years ago.
Furthermore, the Church’s critics fail to take into consideration that torture and public executions were not considered abnormal punishments hundreds of years ago. After all, it was not until the twentieth century that torture and capital punishment began to be viewed as inhumane and unacceptable by certain governments.
Is being burnt at the stake for heresy better or worse than being stoned to death for collecting fire-wood on the Sabbath?

 

[RogerDC]

The idea a man dressed up in robes has the authority to perform a miracle like this is absurd.

I agree - the idea that a priest can perform the miracle of transforming bread and wine in the body and blood of Christ IS absurd … but so is a man turning water into wine, a virgin giving birth, a man walking on water, a man rising from the dead, a man parting the Red Sea and God creating the universe out of nothing.
The idea that a priest can forgive sins is absurd too, but Jesus gave them that power in John 20.

 

[Paul Christensen]

I agree - the idea that a priest can perform the miracle of transforming bread and wine in the body and blood of Christ IS absurd … but so is a man turning water into wine, a virgin giving birth, a man walking on water, a man rising from the dead, a man parting the Red Sea and God creating the universe out of nothing.
The idea that a priest can forgive sins is absurd too, but Jesus gave them that power in John 20.

You are correct. These things are illogical to the natural human mind. That's why when we share the gospel with the unsaved, we avoid getting into debates with them about these things. It is once a person is converted to Christ that the Holy Spirit can help him understand how and why these things can be.

 

[RogerDC]

You are correct. These things are illogical to the natural human mind. That's why when we share the gospel with the unsaved, we avoid getting into debates with them about these things. It is once a person is converted to Christ that the Holy Spirit can help him understand how and why these things can be.

Very well sad, Kiwi Man. There is hope for you yet

 

[FollowHim]

I agree - the idea that a priest can perform the miracle of transforming bread and wine in the body and blood of Christ IS absurd … but so is a man turning water into wine, a virgin giving birth, a man walking on water, a man rising from the dead, a man parting the Red Sea and God creating the universe out of nothing.
The idea that a priest can forgive sins is absurd too, but Jesus gave them that power in John 20.

I have known many RCC and exRCC people.
My view over my life is simple, Jesus spoke to our hearts and getting love and purity into our actions, thoughts and speech.
Repentance, the cross, forgiveness and praise are the key.

I wish you well in your choices, I can only testify to how Jesus worked in my heart through His word and the Holy Spirit.
Magic, or putting emphasis on the miraculous over the miraculous change in ones heart is the beginning of error.

A young man came up to me when I was a student saying John the Baptist had come and was proclaiming Jesus was going to return.
He was very agitated. I said simply, fine, I will await Jesus's return, until then I will carry on as I am. Euphoria over what might be is meaningless unless it is real. And the bread and wine into the blood and body of Christ is one such delusion.

Jesus was all about the real us, our hearts, our lives, our passions and desires. It is this that God addresses and has eternal consequences.
Sacraments are a way of creating magic security where reality in Christ should be. It is why statues, churches and ceremonies easily become our triggers to our "spiritual" experiences rather than the reality of a change within. I pray that you can experience this and know Jesus setting you free. God bless you.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

So none of those thousands of atheists online who say they were once devout Christians never had faith? Those Christians pastors who became atheists never had faith?

Again what does John Say

1 John 2: 19They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

yeah I will listen to the apostle John, not you ok?

 

[mailmandan]

If works are necessary, then obviously we are saved by faith and works, not faith alone, as James 2:24, 26 clearly indicate ... as do many other verses from the NT.

We are not saved by an empty profession of faith/dead faith that merely claims to be genuine, but demonstrates by the lack of evidential works that it's dead. (James 2:14-26) That is what James means by "faith alone" -- bare profession of faith that remains alone - "barren of works." *Which is not to be confused with salvation through faith (rightly understood) in Christ alone. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9)

 

[RogerDC]

Again what does John Say

1 John 2: 19They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

yeah I will listen to the apostle John, not you ok?

I don’t see how that verse/passage supports your argument that believers cannot lose their faith. Those who John says “were not of us” were those who denied that “Jesus is the Christ”, so it doesn’t apply to all those atheists - some of whom were Christian pastors - who were professing Christians who DID believe that “Jesus is the Christ”.

 

[RogerDC]

We are not saved by an empty profession of faith/dead faith that merely claims to be genuine, but demonstrates by the lack of evidential works that it's dead. (James 2:14-26) That is what James means by "faith alone" -- bare profession of faith that remains alone - "barren of works." *Which is not to be confused with salvation through faith (rightly understood) in Christ alone. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9)

Nowhere in the Bible does it say salvation is through “faith alone”.

Furthermore, “faith (rightly understood) in Christ” includes obeying Christ - which means “keeping His commandments” (1John 2:3-4) - which is “works” - which is what James means when he says “a man is justified by works and not by faith alone” (James 2:24). Rev 12:17 (and 14:12) says the same thing as James 2:24 - true Christians are “those who keep the commandments of God and bear testimony to Jesus” (aka “faith and works”).

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I don’t see how that verse/passage supports your argument that believers cannot lose their faith. Those who John says “were not of us” were those who denied that “Jesus is the Christ”, so it doesn’t apply to all those atheists - some of whom were Christian pastors - who were professing Christians who DID believe that “Jesus is the Christ”.

lol

So according to you they believed Jesus is the Christ, But now they do not believe that Jesus is the Christ (thus in effect denying that jesus is the Christ), and John said, those who deny Jesus is the Christ who at one time, were among us, but now have departed from us as unbelievers, have never been of us. and they left to prove they were never of us?

And you question what that means?

This is a pretty big problem