Not by works - but by faith

[Joseph77]

When you misuse TORAH as you do here and earlier, it does not bode well for you.

Whether you have a speck in your eye, or a log - either one -

would you try to help those who are lost or not?

Would you try to help those in quicksand if you saw them, or would you walk by on the other side of the road ?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Starting as you do with a false premise,
everything that is built upon that quicksand falls down.

Yep

and anything not built on Christ will fall

which was my point. Anything built on sand is not eternal

 

[RogerDC]

I wish you were joking. Killing people for heresy was never a good idea.
For murder etc. there is a valid argument.

Which Catholic doctrine or law says heretics must be put to death?

 

[RogerDC]

To whom am I to show respect? To the adultery of the faith, to idolatry, to exultation of Mary to being the queen of heaven?
I would rather die than admit this is anything to do with following Jesus or knowing a free heart, full of life and living in His love.

Indulgences for getting out of purgatory is just a farce.
But if you want to believe this is what Jesus meant us to know and follow, thats your choice.
I could never follow this or believe it carries any weight.

I suggest you have a very shallow interpretation of "what Jesus meant us to know". For starters, "what Jesus meant us to know" is not confined to the Bible. The Church is "the pillar and foundation of the truth" (1Tim 3:15), not the Scriptures. The Scriptures are only one part of the picture.

 

[Joseph77]

False gospel alert. The false church promotes itself , but is subject to the enemy - not to Jesus.

 

[FollowHim]

Which Catholic doctrine or law says heretics must be put to death?

You tell me why the church burnt heretics at the stake?
I do not know the foundations just the actions over centuries.
It is odd that inquisitors where empowered by the pope to execute people after trials and torture yet some seem to want to deny this.
Why is the obvious so dangerous to these folk?

 

[Joseph77]

You tell me why the church burnt heretics at the stake?
I do not know the foundations just the actions over centuries.
It is odd that inquisitors where empowered by the pope to execute people after trials and torture yet some seem to want to deny this.
Why is the obvious so dangerous to these folk?

"odd"? Not at all. IT is exactly as written in Scripture. (they did not need trials - sometimes they just killed everyone in a town, on orders)

 

[FollowHim]

I suggest you have a very shallow interpretation of "what Jesus meant us to know". For starters, "what Jesus meant us to know" is not confined to the Bible. The Church is "the pillar and foundation of the truth" (1Tim 3:15), not the Scriptures. The Scriptures are only one part of the picture.

I know the emotional attachment to the buildings, ceremony and traditions, but this does not validate it.
And which takes priority, mans traditions or Gods word? It the contradict one has a choice.
I choose Gods word over the compromised traditions of man, no matter how well intended.
Every fellowship can go wrong, but it takes those led by the Holy Spirit to speak out the truth.

The concept of transubstantiation is just one absurd idea. Wine and wafer do not turn into Jesus's blood and body.
A celebration of sacrifice and love, the atonement, which the passover demonstrated, the lambs blood cleansing our sins away.
Once you make everything a sacrament, you lose its true meaning to the heart of the individual. In real terms it would be a miracle for wine and unleavened bread to turn into human flesh and actual blood. But in reality, I am sure people do not believe this happens, because it is still wine.

The ceremony is sacred though, because it links our hearts to Gods heart, His cleansing to our lives.
Paul told the Corinthians that they were dealing with the celebration like a meal and so bringing judgement on themselves. They certainly did not regard this to be the actual blood and body of Christ, but no less important. God bless you.

 

[FollowHim]

"odd"? Not at all. IT is exactly as written in Scripture. (they did not need trials - sometimes they just killed everyone in a town, on orders)

The orders where from the Lord to Moses, who told the people what they were to do.
No one stands before the Lord like Moses today, or carries this authority. Equally we are the people of God, a Kingdom in our hearts, not a kingdom as a social community who exercise civil and penal law. Jesus taught us not to resist the evil person, to turn the other cheek, and to expel from our communities those who became heretics or continued in sin, not to execute them.

 

[Joseph77]

The concept of transubstantiation is just one absurd idea.

Worse - it is directly from the devil - anti-God, anti-Scripture, an abomination exposed by Charles Chiniquoy, Keith Green, and many others.

 

[Joseph77]

The orders where from the Lord to Moses, who told the people what they were to do.
No one stands before the Lord like Moses today, or carries this authority. Equally we are the people of God, a Kingdom in our hearts, not a kingdom as a social community who exercise civil and penal law. Jesus taught us not to resist the evil person, to turn the other cheek, and to expel from our communities those who became heretics or continued in sin, not to execute them.

No - wrong time zone. The time since /after 200a.d. .... the military like ventures to slaughter people, ordered by the false religion.
They had orders to wipe out towns at times, with no trial.

Jesus Stands with the Father, Jesus has MORE HONOR, MORE AUTHORITY than Moses.

 

[FollowHim]

No - wrong time zone. The time since /after 200a.d. .... the military like ventures to slaughter people, ordered by the false religion.
They had orders to wipe out towns at times, with no trial.

Jesus Stands with the Father, Jesus has MORE HONOR, MORE AUTHORITY than Moses.

Jesus was a like a lamb to the slaughter. He spoke peace and love. That is our example.

5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death--even death on a cross!
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Phil 2:5-11

Jesus's ministry was as prophesied

20 A bruised reed he will not break, and a smoldering wick he will not snuff out, till he leads justice to victory.
21 In his name the nations will put their hope
Matt 12:20-21

Sadly nutcases have murdered and abused in Jesus's name and for the church but that does not make them part of the Kingdom.
If you want to stand on the authority of Jesus, healing and service are His ways.

 

[Joseph77]

What topic/ subject/ purpose this ? >>

Sadly nutcases have murdered and abused in Jesus's name and for the church but that does not make them part of the Kingdom...

 

[Joseph77]

re "Jesus Stands with the Father, Jesus has MORE HONOR, MORE AUTHORITY than Moses. "

Study Bible
Jesus Our Apostle and High Priest
…2He was faithful to the One who appointed Him, just as Moses was faithful in all God’s house.

For Jesus has been counted worthy of greater glory than Moses,

just as the builder of a house has greater honor than the house itself. And every house is built by someone, but God is the builder of everything.…
Berean Study Bible · Download"

5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:.....
Jesus's ministry was as prophesied
.....

 

[RogerDC]

1. if eternal life can be lost for ANY reason. it is not eternal. It is conditional
2. A person of faith never loses faith, Because God never lets them down. Saying they can is to say God is not trustworthy. Although from your churches perspective, I can see why you beieve this way.
3. Once again, John said people who do not believe in Jesus have never been saved, They were never of us, if they were of us, they never would have left.

If you lose your faith, will you still have "eternal life"?

 

[FollowHim]

If you lose your faith, will you still have "eternal life"?

No. All the promises come to those that believe. A relationship hangs on knowledge and communication.

Peter denied Jesus, but came back because he still believed in Him. Amen

 

[Eternally Grateful]

If you lose your faith, will you still have "eternal life"?

If?

if I lose my faith, I believe God has failed me, and he(like humans) is no longer trustworthy.

has God failed you and given you a reason to lose faith?

Or has a person who supposedly lost faith, became like John said, against Christ, and walked awa, not because they lost salvation, but because “they were never of us, if they were truly of us they never would have left”

 

[FollowHim]

If?

if I lose my faith, I believe God has failed me, and he(like humans) is no longer trustworthy.

has God failed you and given you a reason to lose faith?

Or has a person who supposedly lost faith, became like John said, against Christ, and walked awa, not because they lost salvation, but because “they were never of us, if they were truly of us they never would have left”

Here is the paradox.
If one believes in Jesus yet later in life walk away, which proves ones original stand was false, no one can be sure of their salvation, because everything one stands on could be deception in this framework.

But as the Lord declares He honours what is today, righteousness or sinning.
We can only declare what we know today. Why in the future would one walk away from love, faith and the Lord?
The difference is always the particular, we are blessed so faith is easy, or things are hard so it must not be true.
Job was tested in this regard, the blessing or hardship we are in does not change the eternal realities.

The fruit of a position is its consequence. Before the Lord we need to be humble, contrite and needy, because no matter what might have gone before we are always one step away from sin and dishonour. Like a man on a cliff edge, there is risk but also privilege.

 

[RogerDC]

So, if there were illiterate people in the churches, they would have had literate people read the Scriptures plus Paul's letters to them, and so their faith was certainly based on the Jewish Scriptures, and, as we know now, Paul's letters which came to be recognised as New Testament Scriptures.

True, but a believer does not need to intensely study the Bible to be saved. The formula for salvation is really quite simple: Love God and obey His commandments. The best way to do this is by joining and following the teachings of His Church.

I know that some on this forum have accused me of being anti-Catholic, but I am not. I just don't support some of the doctrines and practices of some in the hierarchy of the Church. When I studied Catholic theology as part of my M.Div, I learned that there is more to unite us than to divide us.

Were you actually taught authentic “Catholic theology”, or some biased and inaccurate version of it? The best way to learn Catholic theology is to get it from the horse’s mouth, and the best place to start is the Catechism of the Catholic Church. The Catholic Encyclopedia is also very informative, and often goes into more depth.

 

[RogerDC]

The concept of transubstantiation is just one absurd idea. Wine and wafer do not turn into Jesus's blood and body.

And water does not turn into wine. Are you saying God cannot perform miracles?

You’re a bit like the disciples who stopped following Jesus when they heard Him say, “he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day” (John 6:54), except you walk away from His Church, which offers Christ’s flesh and blood in the Sacrament of the Eucharist (transubstantiation).

I accept the doctrine of the Real Presence only because that is what Christ Church teaches - I learnt from the twelve apostles, who accepted Jesus’ strange words because they trusted Him and believed He had “the words of eternal life”. The Catholic Church also has “the words of eternal life” because she it the “fullness” of Christ (Eph 1:22-23). It is only in the Catholic and Orthodox Churches that a believer can eat Christ’s flesh and drink His blood (John 6:54).

The Eucharist is symbolic in the sense that the forms of bread and wine are retained, but at the same time they are the body and blood of Christ. God does not expect us to eat and drink Christ’s body and blood in the form of actual flesh and blood.