Not faith alone?
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Ephesians 2:8-9 (NKJV)John 6:28 - Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
Those Christ died for, His Elect, are dead to the Law at birth, by His death Rom 7:4
Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
The body of Christ here simply means His Death !
Those who believe they don't sin are only fooling themselves.
Luke 11:2-4 (NKJV)
2 So He said to them, "When you pray, say: Our Father in heaven, Hallowed be Your name. Your kingdom come. Your will be done On earth as it is in heaven. 3 Give us day by day our daily bread. 4 And forgive us our sins, For we also forgive everyone who is indebted to us.
Then why do Christians preach the Law? We have the New Covenant in Jesus' Blood.
The Law was ONLY given to Israel. Christians have the New Covenant.
Psalm 147:19-20 (NKJV)
19 He declares His word to Jacob, His statutes and His judgments to Israel. 20 He has not dealt thus with any nation; And as for His judgments, they have not known them.
You left off:
"not of works"
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
It's not about must or else. Love is not forced or legalistic for those who are born of God and know God. 1 John 4:7 - Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8 He who does not love does not know God, for God is love.
The Bible clearly states in many passages of scripture that man is saved through belief/faith "apart from additions or modifications." (Luke 7:50; 8:12; John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 15:7-9; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:5-6; 5:1; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Galatians 2:16; 3:6-9, 26; Ephesians 2:8.9; Philippians 3:9; 2 Timothy 3:15; Hebrews 10:39; 1 John 5:13 etc..). Now you don't need to add the word "alone" in these passages of scripture in order to figure out that the words "belief/faith" stand alone in connection with receiving eternal life/salvation. Do these many passages of scripture say faith plus something else? Plus works? NO. So then it's faith (rightly understood) in Christ alone.
If we have faith, then we have hope. Faith is the assurance of things hoped for.. (Hebrews 11:1) If we have been saved through faith and have received the Holy Spirit, then we have the love of God in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us. (Romans 5:5) Those who teach salvation by works try to turn attributes of those who are born of God into a legalistic prescription for salvation.
Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely necessary for salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief and not on a lack of baptism. So salvation rests on belief. *NOWHERE does the Bible say "baptized or condemned."
If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the one requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? *BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.
John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
All who are born of God will suffer for Christ's sake. Some just more than others.
Notice the words "work of" faith, "labor of" love and "patience of" hope in 1 Thessalonians 1:3. These are the practical outworking of the Thessalonians' conversion. The "work" the Thessalonians do is a result or consequence of their faith. So too their "labor" flows from love and their "endurance" comes from hope. Work "of" faith does not mean that faith in essence is the work accomplished or that we are saved by works that are produced out of faith. Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. Their work is a result or consequence "of" their faith. The work done is "of" faith or done "out of" faith. Faith was already established at conversion and then the work followed as a result or consequence "of" faith. I've heard works-salvationists try to turn work "of" faith into this work "is" faith and end up making no distinction between faith and works that follow as a result of faith.
Works salvationists typically turn exhortations into legalistic prescriptions and confuse descriptive passages of scripture with prescriptive passages of scripture and the end result is perverted gospel of works salvation.
not by works but by grace with faith WORKING thru love
Mark 16:16 The requirements for those who are being saved cannot be undone by the requirements for those not being saved! He who believes and is baptized is still required for salvation? Heaven and earth may pass away but my words shall not pass away!
how can you be a disciple without baptism???? Matt 28:19 Jn 1,2,3,4
I answered that in my very next statement.
The law is a schoolmaster to lead men to Christ (Galatians 3:24), in that it shows mankind that he is a sinner in need of a Saviour (Romans 3:20, Matthew 1:21); thus converting his soul (Psalms 19:7 (kjv))
It is the church that is not under the law (Romans 6:14, Romans 3:9, 1 Corinthians 10:32);
And unbelieving Gentiles don't fit in that category.
I'm sorry, what post was that in?
1) the blood of Jesus sanctifies
2) Christ comes into the heart and lives a righteous life in you and through you (if you are born again of His Spirit).
The nkjv is somewhat watered-down there.
In the kjv, it says,
"For by grace are ye saved (?) through faith..."
Notice that I placed the ... there to indicate that there is more in the verse. I suppose I got lazy there and did not quote the whole verse...but I did not pretend that it was the whole verse that I was quoting. Notice also that the whole of the verse is quoted elsewhere in the same post.
And "not of works" is in verse 9, so I was not quoting half a verse to leave that out.
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
*See post #387.
To automatically read "baptism" into John 3:5 simply because it mentions "water" is unwarranted. Have you cosidered "living water" in John 4:10, 14; 7:37-39? In John 4:10, Jesus said, "If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, 'Give Me a drink,' you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water." In John 4:14, Jesus said, "but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life. *Jesus connects this living water here with everlasting life. *Living water is not water baptism. In 1 Corinthians 12:13, we also read - ..drink into one Spirit. *Perfect harmony*
In John 7:38-39, we read - "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. But this He spoke concerning the Spirit.. The Holy Spirit is the source of living water and spiritual cleansing. If "water" is arbitrarily defined as baptism, then we could just as justifiably say, "Out of his heart will flow rivers of living baptism" in John 7:38. If this sounds ridiculous, it is no more so than the idea that water baptism is the source or the means of becoming born again.
There are still others who would point out that "water" is used in the Bible as an emblem of the Word of God, and in such uses it is associated with cleansing or washing. (John 15:3; Ephesians 5:26) When we are born again, the Holy Spirit begets new life, divine life, so that we are said to become "partakers of the divine nature." (2 Peter 1:4) The new birth is brought to pass through "incorruptible seed, by the word of God, which lives and abides forever" (I Peter 1:23) and the Holy Spirit is the Agent who accomplishes the miracle of regeneration.
I really don't care about what certain fallible men taught for almost 2,000 years. The church fathers were not infallible and did not always agree with each other in all matters of doctrine. I find it strange that in these early writings we find men teaching salvation by water baptism and also salvation through faith alone.
Clement of Rome: "We also, being called through God's will in Christ Jesus, are not justified through ourselves, neither through our own wisdom or understanding, or piety, or works which we have done in holiness or heart, but through faith" (Epistle to Corinthians).
Jerome: "When an ungodly man is converted, God justified him through faith alone, not on account of good works which he possessed not."
Basil: "This is the true and perfect glorying in God, when a man is not lifted up on account of his own righteousness, but has known himself to be wanting in true righteousness and to be justified by faith alone in Christ."
Chrysostom: "Again, they said that he who adhered to faith alone was cursed, but he shows that he who adhered to faith alone, is blessed."
Augustine: "Grace is give to you, not wages paid to you...it is called grace because it is given gratuitously. By no precedent merits did you buy what you have received. The sinner therefore received this grace first, that his sins should be forgiven him...good works follow after a justified person; they do not go before in order that he may be justified...good works, following after justification, show what a man has received."
Augustine: "Now, having duly considered and weighed all these circumstances and testimonies, we conclude that a man is not justified by the precepts of a holy life, but by faith in Jesus Christ,--in a word, not by the law of works, but by the law of faith; not by the letter, but by the spirit; not by the merits of deeds, but by free grace."
Bernard of Clairvaux: "Shall not all our righteousness turn out to be mere unrighteousness and deficiency? What, then, shall it be concerning our sins, when not even our righteousness can answer for itself? Wherefore...let us flee, with all humility to Mercy which alone can save our souls...whoever hungers and thirsts after righteousness, let him believe in thee, who "justified the ungodly"; and thus, being justified by faith alone, he shall have peace with God."
You can preach the Law if you want to but I think you're in trouble. Do yourself a BIG favor. Preach the NT, not the Law of Moses that you have never kept yourself.
Galatians 5:3-4 (NKJV)
3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. 4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
And neither do Gentiles "fit" the Law of Moses. It was ONLY for Israel. Gentiles are not under the Law. You're drastically confused!
Psalm 147:19-20 (NKJV)
19 He declares His word to Jacob, His statutes and His judgments to Israel. 20 He has not dealt thus with any nation; And as for His judgments, they have not known them.
The one where you left this out:
Ephesians 2:8-9 (NKJV)
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
In Matthew 28:19-20, we have a command here by Jesus to go and make disciples of all nations, and baptize them. However, it does not say here that baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation. The same command also includes the clause "teaching them to observe all things" that Christ has commanded them. Makes disciples first, then baptize them and teach them to observe everything He has commanded. Faith in Christ alone is what saves and is a heart decision which causes us to become disciples of Jesus.
I certainly do not believe that I am justified through law-keeping. Even if the righteousness of the law is perfectly fulfilled in me through walking not after the flesh but after the Spirit, I am justified wholly by the faith of Christ: because my trust is not in my performance to save me but in His shed blood on the Cross. And because of this my performance is nearly impeccable.
Before we came to faith, we were kept under the law (Galatians 3:23). Are we not Gentiles?
And also, Jew and Gentile alike will be judged by the law and will be counted as guilty before God because of it (Romans 3:19-20).
Sin is the transgression of the law (1 John 3:4). And men will be counted worthy of the lake off fire because they are workers of iniquity (committers of sin)...see Matthew 13:41-42.
Therefore, it is their violation of the law that will make them guilty on their day of judgment. In violating the law, they have sinned; and in sinning, they have made themselves worthy of condemnation. Therefore they will be condemned over their violation of the law. And this means that they must, therefore, be under the law; in order for the law to be their judge in and on that day.
I answered this in post #391 (Not faith alone?).
You're telling Gentiles to obey the Law of Moses?
I'm a Gentile. I've never been under the Law. The Law did not lead me to Jesus!
You may be judged by the Law because you are preaching parts of the Law. And you carefully avoid much of the Law. I don't preach the Law. I preach the New Covenant in Jesus' Blood.
You're living in sin because you don't keep the Law of Moses? And don't say you keep the Law of Moses because you do not!
You're preaching the Law of Moses! You're a debtor to keep the entire Law! And you do not.
Galatians 5:3-4 (NKJV)
3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law.
4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
There is certainly a difference between actually being sinless and in declaring oneself to be sinless. Often the problem with a person declaring his own sinlessness is that if he had actually been there, he then moves into the sin again with his prideful announcement of having moved away from it.
Sometimes God may want a person to make such a declaration, but usually, I believe, He does not. That He wants us all to be without sin and that He has provided the means for a person to attain it should not be a subject of argument between believers, but... like perhaps a few other things it most certainly is...
Help us dear Lord!
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