Not faith alone?

[amadeus]

Those who believe they don't sin are only fooling themselves.

Is walking by faith in God and the things of God 'fooling oneself'?
Was Jesus lying here?

"And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved?
And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible." Mark 10:26-27

Is the following promise empty when a person ask God to help him overcome sin?

"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:" Matt 7:7

 

[Michiah-Imla]

There is certainly a difference between actually being sinless and in declaring oneself to be sinless. Often the problem with a person declaring his own sinlessness is that if he had actually been there, he then to the sin in his prideful announcement he moved away from it again.

Sometimes God may want a person to make such a declaration, but usually, I believe, He does not. That wants us all to be without sin and that He has provided the means for a person to attain it should not be a subject of argument between believers, but... like perhaps a few other things it most certainly is...

Help us dear Lord!

I keep my sin status private; I make no unprovoked pronouncements. But like how Paul was driven into foolishness to defend his status as an apostle (2 Corinthians 12:11), we likewise are driven into foolishness by the “we remain sinners” crowd when they ask the question, “do you sin?”

 

[brightfame52]

1) the blood of Jesus sanctifies

2) Christ comes into the heart and lives a righteous life in you and through you (if you are born again of His Spirit).

How does that happen according to Rom 5 19

 

[amadeus]

I keep my sin status private; I make no unprovoked pronouncements. But like how Paul was driven into foolishness to defend his status as an apostle (2 Corinthians 12:11), we likewise are driven into foolishness by the “we remain sinners” crowd when they ask the question, “do you sin?”

We need to stay in touch with God so that when someone asks us such a question, we know which direction to go. As Solomon wrote, there is a 'time to be silent' as well as a time to speak!

 

[Michiah-Imla]

We need to stay in touch with God so that when someone asks us such a question, we know which direction to go. As Solomon wrote, there is a 'time to be silent' as well as a time to speak!

Thank you!

I appreciate your advice.

God bless you!

 

[kcnalp]

Is walking by faith in God and the things of God 'fooling oneself'?
Was Jesus lying here?

"And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved?
And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible." Mark 10:26-27

Is the following promise empty when a person ask God to help him overcome sin?

"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:" Matt 7:7

None of which says anyone is sinless. Self righteousness is sin.

 

[amadeus]

None of which says anyone is sinless. Self righteousness is sin.

Of the billions living on Earth or even the considerably smaller number confessing themselves to be Christians, how many do we know personally? Of the ones we do know, how many of their hearts are revealed to us? Therefore being without a revelation from God about them all, how can we speak so definitively?

 

[kcnalp]

Of the billions living on Earth or even the considerably smaller number confessing themselves to be Christians, how many do we know personally? Of the ones we do know, how many of their hearts are revealed to us? Therefore being without a revelation from God about them all, how can we speak so definitively?

I've worked with MANY Christians. I've been to many churches. No one is even close to being "sinless". I'm dealing with REALITY! Self righteousness is a very bad sin! The "self righteous" don't ask God to forgive them of their sins.

 

[Heart2Soul]

I've worked with MANY Christians. I've been to many churches. No one is even close to being "sinless". I'm dealing with REALITY! Self righteousness is a very bad sin! The "self righteous" don't ask God to forgive them of their sins.

Is there any possibility you can consider that the flesh is NOT born again. It remains corrupted and sinfully lusts after the things of the world for as long as it lives. Only the SPIRIT of man is born again of His Spirit. The verses in Galations teaches the war of flesh and Spirit very well.....
Galations 5:13-26
13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.

14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.

16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

Best article I have ever read about flesh warring against the Spirit and what I have pasted is just an excerpt of the whole article......
The War Within: Flesh Versus Spirit
JUNE 19, 1983
The War Within
Flesh Versus Spirit

• Resource by
  John Piper
  
• Scripture: Galatians 5:16–18 Topic: Indwelling Sin

But I say, walk by the Spirit, and do not gratify the desires of the flesh. For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh; for these are opposed to each other, to prevent you from doing what you would. But if you are led by the Spirit you are not under the law.

Last week we learned from Galatians 5:13–15 that the good news of Christ is a call to freedom. God’s revealed will for all of us is that we have the opportunity, the ability, and the desire to do what will give us the greatest satisfaction now and in a thousand years. We also learned that the only activity which we can perform in freedom is love. “You were called to freedom . . . so through love be servants of one another” (Galatians 5:13).

This love is not optional. It is commanded. And it is very radical: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” In other words, we are called in our freedom to desire and seek the happiness of others with the same zeal that we seek our own. But if you take this command seriously, it is so contrary to our natural inclinations that it seems utterly impossible. That I should get up in the morning and feel as much concern for your needs as for my own seems utterly beyond my power. If this is the Christian life — caring for others as I care for myself — then it is hard, indeed, and I feel hopeless to ever live it out.

 

[kcnalp]

Is there any possibility you can consider that the flesh is NOT born again. It remains corrupted and sinfully lusts after the things of the world for as long as it lives. Only the SPIRIT of man is born again of His Spirit. The verses in Galations teaches the war of flesh and Spirit very well.....
Galations 5:13-26
13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.

14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.

16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

Best article I have ever read about flesh warring against the Spirit and what I have pasted is just an excerpt of the whole article......
JUNE 19, 1983
The War Within
Flesh Versus Spirit

• Resource by
  John Piper
  
• Scripture: Galatians 5:16–18 Topic: Indwelling Sin

But I say, walk by the Spirit, and do not gratify the desires of the flesh. For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh; for these are opposed to each other, to prevent you from doing what you would. But if you are led by the Spirit you are not under the law.

Last week we learned from Galatians 5:13–15 that the good news of Christ is a call to freedom. God’s revealed will for all of us is that we have the opportunity, the ability, and the desire to do what will give us the greatest satisfaction now and in a thousand years. We also learned that the only activity which we can perform in freedom is love. “You were called to freedom . . . so through love be servants of one another” (Galatians 5:13).

This love is not optional. It is commanded. And it is very radical: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” In other words, we are called in our freedom to desire and seek the happiness of others with the same zeal that we seek our own. But if you take this command seriously, it is so contrary to our natural inclinations that it seems utterly impossible. That I should get up in the morning and feel as much concern for your needs as for my own seems utterly beyond my power. If this is the Christian life — caring for others as I care for myself — then it is hard, indeed, and I feel hopeless to ever live it out.

Are you saying that none of those thousands of people I know are saved? I know they are not literally "sinless".

 

[Heart2Soul]

@kcnalp....furthermore....
have you ever considered this scripture....one man's disobedience made all mankind sinners.......one man's obedience made all man righteous if they accept it....it is a gift.

Romans 5:18-21
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[kcnalp]

@kcnalp....furthermore....
have you ever considered this scripture....one man's disobedience made all mankind sinners.......one man's obedience made all man righteous if they accept it....it is a gift.

Romans 5:18-21
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Of course the Blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin. But we still sin.
1 John 1:9-10 (NKJV)
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

 

[Heart2Soul]

@kcnalp....and finally this scripture...the day will come when we can put off this corrupt body and put on the incorruptible one...
1 Corinthians 15:41-58
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

 

[Heart2Soul]

Of course the Blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin. But we still sin.
1 John 1:9-10 (NKJV)
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

And on this we agree...
But Paul said that he found a law that where good is evil is present also....and says that it isn't him (his will) but rather sin that dwells in him.....point is...we are born again of His Spirit...not born again of the flesh...we have to constantly put our flesh under subjection to His Spirit by walking after the Spirit and not after the flesh.
Romans 7:19-25
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

 

[justbyfaith]

The Law did not lead me to Jesus!

Then, perhaps, you did not really come to Jesus.

I could be wrong (you may be an exception to the rule).

I don't preach the Law. I preach the New Covenant in Jesus' Blood.

That is like telling people "I have medicine here for you to take" without showing them that they have a disease and thus the need to take it.

You're living in sin because you don't keep the Law of Moses? And don't say you keep the Law of Moses because you do not!

I don't keep the law of Moses (Galatians 6:13). However, the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in me because I walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit (Romans 8:4).

I may not wear tzitzit and tallit and tefilin, or blow a trumpet at the new moon; but Jesus said that the law is fulfilled in two commandments: 1) that you love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength; and, 2) that you love your neighbor as yourself.

The love of the Lord is shed abroad in my heart through the Holy Ghost which is given unto me (Romans 5:5). Therefore the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in me (Romans 13:8-10, Galatians 5:14, 1 John 5:3, 2 John 1:6, Romans 8:4).

Again, Romans 7:6 tells us that we are no longer bound to the letter but because we have the Spirit, we will be obedient to the spirit of what is written.

You're preaching the Law of Moses! You're a debtor to keep the entire Law! And you do not.

Preaching the law of Moses is not the same as trusting in the law of Moses to save me.

For I preach the law as a schoolmaster to lead men to Christ (Galatians 3:24, Romans 3:20, Psalms 19:7 (kjv)).

I know and understand that my salvation is through faith in Jesus Christ alone.

How does that happen according to Rom 5 19

Through the obedience of Christ.

1) He was obedient unto death, so that His blood was shed, which sanctifies us (Hebrews 13:12, Hebrews 10:29) and cleanseth us from all sin (1 John 1:7).

2) He has come to live in us (Ephesians 3:17, Colossians 1:27, 1 John 5:12, and Galatians 2:20) and in living His life in us and through us, His obedience makes us righteous (because He is living an obedient life in us and through us) in the practical sense.

I've worked with MANY Christians. I've been to many churches. No one is even close to being "sinless". I'm dealing with REALITY! Self righteousness is a very bad sin! The "self righteous" don't ask God to forgive them of their sins.

So, the way your reasoning goes:

No one is sinless; and if anyone claims to be sinless, they are sinning.

What about those who are silently sinless and do not claim to be so? You would not know that they are sinless because they have not set their lives in front of you as an example of sinlessness.
.
.
.
btw, I agree that no one is sinless.

We all have indwelling sin (1 John 1:8).

That element of sin, dwelling within us, can be rendered dead (Romans 6:6, Galatians 5:24, Romans 7:8) so that it no longer has any say over our behaviour (Romans 6:14).

Thus there is no real contradiction between 1 John 1:8 and 1 John 3:9, 1 John 3:6, 1 John 2:17.

There would only be a contradiction if 1 John 1:8 said, "If we say that we do not sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." Look at it again. It does not exactly say that.

 

[justbyfaith]

And on this we agree...
But Paul said that he found a law that where good is evil is present also....and says that it isn't him (his will) but rather sin that dwells in him.....point is...we are born again of His Spirit...not born again of the flesh...we have to constantly put our flesh under subjection to His Spirit by walking after the Spirit and not after the flesh.
Romans 7:19-25
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Of course, in Romans 7:14-25, Paul is using the literary tactic of IDENTIFICATION; which he said he was prone to do in 1 Corinthians 9:22.

In this literary tactic, the author identifies himself with the person he is speaking to (even though he is not truly like them...i.e. "I became as weak in order to win those who are weak") in order to win them to his point of view; in order to show them the folly of being in the state that they are in.

It should be clear that if anyone is living a Romans 7:14-25 lifestyle, they are not saved (I think that I can prove this scripturally).

But they are on the way to salvation if they will identify with Paul's statement in Romans 7:24 (as he identifies with them); and show discontentedness over their sin.

Another point about the passage. Those who are kept in bondage are seeking "how" to be able to escape that bondage. Paul makes it clear, within the passage, that the solution is not a "how" but a "WHO".

 

[kcnalp]

Then, perhaps, you did not really come to Jesus.

You can take the Law. I'll stick with the NT. Hope you make it!

I could be wrong (you may be an exception to the rule).

Do you actually know someone who was led to Jesus by the Law of Moses? Anyone?

That is like telling people "I have medicine here for you to take" without showing them that they have a disease and thus the need to take it.

I don't keep the law of Moses (Galatians 6:13).

I know. Nobody does!

However, the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in me because I walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit (Romans 8:4).

I may not wear tzitzit and tallit and tefilin, or blow a trumpet at the new moon; but Jesus said that the law is fulfilled in two commandments: 1) that you love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength; and, 2) that you love your neighbor as yourself.

The love of the Lord is shed abroad in my heart through the Holy Ghost which is given unto me (Romans 5:5). Therefore the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in me (Romans 13:8-10, Galatians 5:14, 1 John 5:3, 2 John 1:6, Romans 8:4).

Again, Romans 7:6 tells us that we are no longer bound to the letter but because we have the Spirit, we will be obedient to the spirit of what is written.

So, you don't obey the Law but it led you to Jesus?

Preaching the law of Moses is not the same as trusting in the law of Moses to save me.

Oh yes it is! You are obligated to keep all the Law!
Galatians 5:3-4 (NKJV)
3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. 4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

For I preach the law as a schoolmaster to lead men to Christ (Galatians 3:24, Romans 3:20, Psalms 19:7 (kjv)).

Which parts of the Law do you preach? The parts you like maybe? How about the part that COMMANDS to execute gays?

I know and understand that my salvation is through faith in Jesus Christ alone.

Through the obedience of Christ.

1) He was obedient unto death, so that His blood was shed, which sanctifies us (Hebrews 13:12, Hebrews 10:29) and cleanseth us from all sin (1 John 1:7).

2) He has come to live in us (Ephesians 3:17, Colossians 1:27, 1 John 5:12, and Galatians 2:20) and in living His life in us and through us, His obedience makes us righteous (because He is living an obedient life in us and through us) in the practical sense.

So, the way your reasoning goes:

No one is sinless; and if anyone claims to be sinless, they are sinning.

That sounds pretty accurate. Self righteousness!

What about those who are silently sinless and do not claim to be so? You would not know that they are sinless because they have not set their lives in front of you as an example of sinlessness.

You actually know someone who is literally sinless?

btw, I agree that no one is sinless.

We all have indwelling sin (1 John 1:8).

That element of sin, dwelling within us, can be rendered dead (Romans 6:6, Galatians 5:24, Romans 7:8) so that it no longer has any say over our behaviour (Romans 6:14).

Thus there is no real contradiction between 1 John 1:8 and 1 John 3:9, 1 John 3:6, 1 John 2:17.

There would only be a contradiction if 1 John 1:8 said, "If we say that we do not sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." Look at it again. It does not exactly say that.

John included himself, "we", "us". Was John a Christian?
1 John 1:9-10 (NKJV)
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

You don't "confess" your sins?

 

[amadeus]

I've worked with MANY Christians. I've been to many churches. No one is even close to being "sinless". I'm dealing with REALITY! Self righteousness is a very bad sin! The "self righteous" don't ask God to forgive them of their sins.

Your response provides an example of why it is not given by God for either you or I to impose a final judgement of another person. Consider the difference between King Saul and King David! Why, when both were anointed, was the one rejected by God and the other called the 'apple of His eye' and a man after His heart...

 

[kcnalp]

Your response provides an example of why it is not given by God for either you or I to impose a final judgement of another person. Consider the difference between King Saul and King David! Why, when both were anointed, was the one rejected by God and the other called the 'apple of His eye' and a man after His heart...

I didn't do any such thing!

 

[justbyfaith]

Do you actually know someone who was led to Jesus by the Law of Moses? Anyone?

yes...me.

I know. Nobody does!

That goes without saying (Galatians 6:13).

So, you don't obey the Law but it led you to Jesus?

Yep.

Oh yes it is!

If that were the case, then any true evangelist is required to obey the whole law of Moses.

You are obligated to keep all the Law!

You are not going to convince me of your pov. I know that I am saved wholly through the blood of Jesus Christ...forgiven and redeemed.

Which parts of the Law do you preach? The parts you like maybe? How about the part that COMMANDS to execute gays?

The whole law...

What do you have against the part that says homosexuals are to be put to death?

Are you gay yourself?

We are living in the age of grace right now...so I don't judge you if you are...however I would encourage you to read 1 Corinthians 6:9-11.

As a matter of fact, if I am not deceived as to who my own biological father is, I have it in my own DNA.

Happily married to a woman, however; for the last 14 years.

You actually know someone who is literally sinless?

You mean you don't?

If that is the case, I would like to introduce you to someone...my Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ!

You don't "confess" your sins?

I do confess my sins any time the Holy Spirit pinpoints them to my awareness.

That is the meaning of 1 John 1:8. You are deceiving yourself if you deny the testimony of the Holy Spirit when He is pinpointing your sin to you.