Not many will make it through the GREAT TRIBULATION. Because of no faith.

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aspen

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Actually this is not a debate forum; it is a message board with a debate section, which we are not posting in. As far as posting a link - I suppose you can find rudeness in the nicest and briefest of posts, even when rudeness is not intended. I posted a link without explanation because I was at work. The point of the article is that eschatology has been subject to extreme interpretation - dispensationalism is only one example.
 

Endtime

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I would venture to say that there are a lot of young children posing as adults on this forum. The fact that they can't stay anywhere near topic shows a wandering young undisciplined mind. This is a good topic that people should learn from. I for one will ask God daily for the faith I need. that is at least a start.
 

veteran

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The coming tribulation is to be a test involving a bowing in false worship to another in place of Christ. Our not falling away to do that is what depends on our Faith in order that... our souls will be saved in Christ Jesus, not our flesh. Many of those of Faith will be killed during that period, and by that they will have preserved... their souls unto Christ.

Thus it is a mistake to associate a flesh salvation with that stand in Christ by Faith during the coming tribulation.
 

Endtime

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The coming tribulation is to be a test involving a bowing in false worship to another in place of Christ. Our not falling away to do that is what depends on our Faith in order that... our souls will be saved in Christ Jesus, not our flesh. Many of those of Faith will be killed during that period, and by that they will have preserved... their souls unto Christ.

Thus it is a mistake to associate a flesh salvation with that stand in Christ by Faith during the coming tribulation.
During the three and a half year great tribulation. None of those of faith will be killed. Only the liars who have no faith. This is the end time when those of faith pick up the sword of the Spirit and slay the beast.

Revelation 11
5 And if anyone wants to harm them, fire proceeds from their mouth and devours their enemies. And if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this manner.
 

veteran

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During the three and a half year great tribulation. None of those of faith will be killed. Only the liars who have no faith. This is the end time when those of faith pick up the sword of the Spirit and slay the beast.

Revelation 11
5 And if anyone wants to harm them, fire proceeds from their mouth and devours their enemies. And if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this manner.


Rev 6:9-11
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
(KJV)

You've obviously got some Bible studying to do.
 

Endtime

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Rev 6:9-11
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
(KJV)

You've obviously got some Bible studying to do.

The scripture that you posted are the the saints of the first Church and a few at the end. Even the Two witnesses will be killed. But those saints tending the Lords sheep in the camps of the Lord during the great tribulation will call fire down on the wolves that try to harm them.

Matthew 21
21 So Jesus answered and said to them, "Assuredly, I say to you, if you have faith and do not doubt, you will not only do what was done to the fig tree, but also if you say to this mountain, 'Be removed and be cast into the sea,' it will be done.
 

us2are1

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The coming tribulation is to be a test involving a bowing in false worship to another in place of Christ. Our not falling away to do that is what depends on our Faith in order that... our souls will be saved in Christ Jesus, not our flesh. Many of those of Faith will be killed during that period, and by that they will have preserved... their souls unto Christ.

Thus it is a mistake to associate a flesh salvation with that stand in Christ by Faith during the coming tribulation.

But then what happens when you were brought into bondage to a false Christ in the first place? How can you fall away from one you never knew?

2 Peter 2
19 -------------- for by whom a person is overcome, by him also he is brought into bondage.

The scripture that you posted are the the saints of the first Church and a few at the end. Even the Two witnesses will be killed. But those saints tending the Lords sheep in the camps of the Lord during the great tribulation will call fire down on the wolves that try to harm them.

Matthew 21
21 So Jesus answered and said to them, "Assuredly, I say to you, if you have faith and do not doubt, you will not only do what was done to the fig tree, but also if you say to this mountain, 'Be removed and be cast into the sea,' it will be done.

Amen Pastor

Some will be martyred and some will not even to the end.
 

veteran

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The scripture that you posted are the the saints of the first Church and a few at the end. Even the Two witnesses will be killed. But those saints tending the Lords sheep in the camps of the Lord during the great tribulation will call fire down on the wolves that try to harm them.

Matthew 21
21 So Jesus answered and said to them, "Assuredly, I say to you, if you have faith and do not doubt, you will not only do what was done to the fig tree, but also if you say to this mountain, 'Be removed and be cast into the sea,' it will be done.

The ONLY ones written of in God's Word for the end that will call fire down from heaven are the "two witnesses" of Rev.11. That specific working is linked with the OT commission Elijah the prophet had. Not everyone was called for that commission. It is specific to the two who will be killed after the end of their 1260 days prophesying with their dead bodies left laying in the street of Jerusalem (actually a plaza or square per the Greek).

But then what happens when you were brought into bondage to a false Christ in the first place? How can you fall away from one you never knew?

2 Peter 2
19 -------------- for by whom a person is overcome, by him also he is brought into bondage.



Amen Pastor

Some will be martyred and some will not even to the end.

Speculating again are you?

God's Word reveals there's two main parts to Christ's many-membered Body here on earth. It's given in John 17 for one example. There are those that are 'sent' chosen ones by Christ, and then there are those who are called only. Both groups are to become one in The Father and The Son, i.e., His elect.

The difference with His elect 'chosen' ones is, they cannot... be deceived by the coming pseudo-Christ. The others can, IF they allow themselves to be deceived by the coming false one. In 2 Thess.2, Apostle Paul shows some in the Church will... fall away, meaning becoming deceived for the event when the Antichrist appears and sits in the temple of God showing himself that he is God, exalting himself over all that is called God, or that is worshipped.

There are many, many Christian brethren today that believe on our Heavenly Father through His Son Jesus Christ, and then default to what they are taught within the various religious organizational systems of men. Those have a type of faith, but many of them don't understand how their faith is going to be tested for the tribulation timing. While those have existed within Christ's Church, there have been others in past few decades that saw too many inconsistencies with quite a few doctrines proposed by the religoius organizational systems not aligning with simple Bible Scripture, and they began to get into in-depth Bible study on their own, or within a Bible study group. They began searching The Scriptures daily like they were supposed to be doing in the first place after having believed on Jesus Christ.

Then there are many that may have been raised in the Church in their childhood, but it never really took after they got out on their own (like myself), and then God called them later in life (like myself). These, and I'm not speaking of myself at this point, have been 'shown' Truth dealing with the times, unction from The Holy Spirit bringing them to Christ. I've known some in this group that still lack real in-depth Bible study, but unction from The Holy Spirit has shown them things that align strictly within Holy Writ regarding the end of days, and they are busy searching The Scriptures putting both together, making it solid in their minds.

Now with all that in mind, which group of believers do you think are MORE likely to fall away in bowing in false worship to the coming 'pseudo-Christ' with making the mistake of thinking he's our Lord Jesus having returned?

Answer to that is simple, those who don't search The Scriptures daily with the unction of The Holy Spirit that are NOT watching the times we're in today, and thus default to the system teachings of men's doctrine in the various denominational systems.
 

Alanforchrist

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It will take true faith in the Lord alone to make it through the upcoming great tribulation. this is the testing of the faith coming up as the two witnesses of the Lord shut down the world and usher in the Kingdom of God.

These are scriptures that tell what it will be like through the great tribulation.


30 "Therefore prophesy against them all these words, and say to them: 'The Lord will roar from on high, And utter His voice from His holy habitation; He will roar mightily against His fold. He will give a shout, as those who tread the grapes, Against all the inhabitants of the earth.
31 A noise will come to the ends of the earth-- For the Lord has a controversy with the nations; He will plead His case with all flesh. He will give those who are wicked to the sword,' says the Lord."
32 Thus says the Lord of hosts: "Behold, disaster shall go forth From nation to nation, And a great whirlwind shall be raised up From the farthest parts of the earth.
33 And at that day the slain of the Lord shall be from one end of the earth even to the other end of the earth. They shall not be lamented, or gathered, or buried; they shall become refuse on the ground.
34 "Wail, shepherds, and cry! Roll about in the ashes, You leaders of the flock! For the days of your slaughter and your dispersions are fulfilled; You shall fall like a precious vessel.
35 And the shepherds will have no way to flee, Nor the leaders of the flock to escape.
36 A voice of the cry of the shepherds, And a wailing of the leaders to the flock will be heard. For the Lord has plundered their pasture,
37 And the peaceful dwellings are cut down Because of the fierce anger of the Lord.

1 Behold, the Lord makes the earth empty and makes it waste, Distorts its surface And scatters abroad its inhabitants.
2 And it shall be: As with the people, so with the priest; As with the servant, so with his master; As with the maid, so with her mistress; As with the buyer, so with the seller; As with the lender, so with the borrower; As with the creditor, so with the debtor.
3 The land shall be entirely emptied and utterly plundered, For the Lord has spoken this word.
4 The earth mourns and fades away, The world languishes and fades away; The haughty people of the earth languish.
5 The earth is also defiled under its inhabitants, Because they have transgressed the laws, Changed the ordinance, Broken the everlasting covenant.
6 Therefore the curse has devoured the earth, And those who dwell in it are desolate. Therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, And few men are left.

The way to fix the problem is to ask God for His Spirit in faith.

Then walk in it.

This is mass destruction caused by people killing people.

33 And at that day the slain of the Lord shall be from one end of the earth even to the other end of the earth. They shall not be lamented, or gathered, or buried; they shall become refuse on the ground.




The only Christains who will go through the tribulation, Are the backsliden ones, Those who are ready and waiting will go up in the pre-trib rapture.
And who's to say that those backsliders will make it.

Matt. 24 also gives excellent insight.



To the elect Jews, Yes, But the elect Church is in heaven at that time, Having been pre-trib raptured.
 

veteran

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The only Christains who will go through the tribulation, Are the backsliden ones, Those who are ready and waiting will go up in the pre-trib rapture.
And who's to say that those backsliders will make it.

To the elect Jews, Yes, But the elect Church is in heaven at that time, Having been pre-trib raptured.

God's Word does not teach about a pre-tribulational rapture of the Church. Christ Jesus taught that His coming and the gathering of His saints is after the tribulation, per Matt.24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27. Apostle Paul showed in 2 Thess.2 that the false one coming to sit in a stone temple in Jerusalem proclaiming himself as God must happen first.
 

Alanforchrist

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God's Word does not teach about a pre-tribulational rapture of the Church. Christ Jesus taught that His coming and the gathering of His saints is after the tribulation, per Matt.24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27. Apostle Paul showed in 2 Thess.2 that the false one coming to sit in a stone temple in Jerusalem proclaiming himself as God must happen first.



The Bible does teach the pre-trib rapture, God tells us we will escape the coming tribulation If we are ready and waiting.

You have to know when the Bible is talking about the,"Elect Jews" And the "Elect Church", The "Elect" In Matt 24, Is the elect Jews, Not the Church.

If you read 2 Thess 2, You'll see that the Church has to go before the anti-christ can come, AS we are holding him back.

The Bible says Jesus is coming back for a glorious Church, "One just like Jesus", John says when Jesus comes back, We'll be just like Him.
And If the devil couln't deal with One Jesus, How is he going to handle millions just like Jesus??. he can't. Thats why we have to be raptured befor he can come.
Don't you believe Jesus when He said He gives us authority over the devil??.
 

veteran

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The Bible does teach the pre-trib rapture, God tells us we will escape the coming tribulation If we are ready and waiting.

No it doesn't. Prove it.


You have to know when the Bible is talking about the,"Elect Jews" And the "Elect Church", The "Elect" In Matt 24, Is the elect Jews, Not the Church.

You really mean, one has to listen to the pre-trib doctrinists to fathom those ideas, for that's who's pushing them, and not God's Holy Writ. Those of Matt.24 and Mark 13 Jesus spoke of is... His Church. Trying to separate ANY member of Christ's many-membered Body apart from His Church is a false doctrine of men. You've just yet to realize that's what those you listen to are actually doing with that idea. Apostle Paul counters that idea too, strongly, in His Epistles, when he said there is no difference in Christ's Church between believing Jew and believing Gentile. We're all the same Body in Christ Jesus, His Church. And Christ's Apostles (who were Israelites) CERTAINLY were part of the early foundation of Christ's Church!


If you read 2 Thess 2, You'll see that the Church has to go before the anti-christ can come, AS we are holding him back.

I have read it, but not just that, but studied it closely. Paul is clearing up a confusion the Church at Thessalonica had about the time of Christ's 2nd coming. He specifically stated to not allow anyone to deceive us about that event, and that TWO specific events MUST happen first, the great falling away (apostasia) and the coming of the "man of sin" to sit in a temple proclaiming himself as God, and exalting himself above all that is called God or that is worshipped.

The idea of the one who lets in 2 Thess.2 is not The Holy Spirit. It's the Archangel Michael, as we were shown about his holding Satan ("prince of Persia" title, that given in the heavenly perspective there) back in the Daniel 10 chapter.


The Bible says Jesus is coming back for a glorious Church, "One just like Jesus", John says when Jesus comes back, We'll be just like Him.
And If the devil couln't deal with One Jesus, How is he going to handle millions just like Jesus??. he can't. Thats why we have to be raptured befor he can come.
Don't you believe Jesus when He said He gives us authority over the devil??.

The subject of discussion is not whether our Lord Jesus will return, for He will as He said. The subject is the time order of events in God's Word that shows what must happen first before... He returns. You should be studying those Scriptures for yourself instead of just heeding doctrines those you listen in the world.

The Pre-Trib Secret Rapture theory began in 1830's Britain with Edward Irving's Church in association with John Darby and the Plymouth Brethren movement. There was a writing of a Jesuit earlier that they refer to.
 

Rex

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The Pre-Trib Secret Rapture theory began in 1830's Britain with Edward Irving's Church in association with John Darby and the Plymouth Brethren movement. There was a writing of a Jesuit earlier that they refer to.

Lunch time, what a day the
Lord has made
http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/antichrist.htm
 

Rex

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your welcome veteran
I like looking at the covers of old documents, among other things

If I have seen further it is by standing on ye sholders of Giants.

Sir Isaac Newton (January 4, 1643March 31, 1727 or in Old Style: December 25, 1642March 20, 1727) was an English physicist, mathematician, astronomer, alchemist, inventor, theologian and natural philosopher. He is often regarded as the most influential scientist in history and is most famous for discovering the Laws of Gravity.

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Isaac_Newton
 

Alanforchrist

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No it doesn't. Prove it.




You really mean, one has to listen to the pre-trib doctrinists to fathom those ideas, for that's who's pushing them, and not God's Holy Writ. Those of Matt.24 and Mark 13 Jesus spoke of is... His Church. Trying to separate ANY member of Christ's many-membered Body apart from His Church is a false doctrine of men. You've just yet to realize that's what those you listen to are actually doing with that idea. Apostle Paul counters that idea too, strongly, in His Epistles, when he said there is no difference in Christ's Church between believing Jew and believing Gentile. We're all the same Body in Christ Jesus, His Church. And Christ's Apostles (who were Israelites) CERTAINLY were part of the early foundation of Christ's Church!




I have read it, but not just that, but studied it closely. Paul is clearing up a confusion the Church at Thessalonica had about the time of Christ's 2nd coming. He specifically stated to not allow anyone to deceive us about that event, and that TWO specific events MUST happen first, the great falling away (apostasia) and the coming of the "man of sin" to sit in a temple proclaiming himself as God, and exalting himself above all that is called God or that is worshipped.

The idea of the one who lets in 2 Thess.2 is not The Holy Spirit. It's the Archangel Michael, as we were shown about his holding Satan ("prince of Persia" title, that given in the heavenly perspective there) back in the Daniel 10 chapter.




The subject of discussion is not whether our Lord Jesus will return, for He will as He said. The subject is the time order of events in God's Word that shows what must happen first before... He returns. You should be studying those Scriptures for yourself instead of just heeding doctrines those you listen in the world.

The Pre-Trib Secret Rapture theory began in 1830's Britain with Edward Irving's Church in association with John Darby and the Plymouth Brethren movement. There was a writing of a Jesuit earlier that they refer to.




[1]There are to many scriptures that prove the pre-trib rapture for it not to be true.

[2]You don't know the difference between the "Elect Jews" and the "Elect Church", And thats your problem.

[3]If you have studies 2 Thess 2, You would know the truth, And that is, "The Church has to go before the anti-christ can start the tribulation period.
You would know why Paul wrote the letter to the Church, He wrote it because some of your bunch were saying the Church has to go through the tribulation, So Paul explained the truth [That the Church has to go before the ant-christ can come] To them.

[4]The Greek meaning for, "Apostasy" Doesn't mean a falling away from the faith, Please read 2Thess 2: 3, And you'll see it doesn't say, "A falling waway FROM THE FAITH" Does it??, NO..NO.. false teachers made that l mistake.

"Falling away", Means, "A Departing, A taking away. And when you read it in it;s right context, Youll see it means the pre-trib rapture.

[5]The one who lets in 2 Thess.2 is not the Archangel Michael, It's the Church and the Holy Spirit that is in the world, Not the Archangel Michael.


[7]One of the events that will happen in the end times, Is, The Church will be gloryfied and Just like Jesus,, SO, As I said, If the devil couldn't handle ONE Jesus, How is he going to deal with millions of Christians who are just like Jesus??, he can't, Thats why the Church has to be raptured before the anti-christ can come, As 2 Thess 2 tells us.



[8]The pre-trib rapture began in the Bible, Not in the 1830s.

I think you need to study the end times more deeply.


Why in the world do people want to tribulate when the Bible tells us we will escape it??.

There are ne scriptures that prove the Church goes through the tribulation period.
There are scriptures that say the Jews and the backsliders will go through the tribulation, But not those who are ready and watching.
To say the Church has to go through the tribulation period, Is to call Jesus anda God inspired Paul a liar, Becuase they both said we will escape the coming tribulation period.
 

veteran

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[1]There are to many scriptures that prove the pre-trib rapture for it not to be true.

There are NO Scriptures in God's Word that prove a Pre-trib Rapture idea. If there were, you would have immediately been able to provide some, as I can easily do to show that theory is false...

DIRECT STATEMENT BY CHRIST:

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
(KJV)

The other part of that is in the Mark 13:24-27 Scripture.

The rest of you post is nothing but 'mouthing', and is actually a mocking against God's Holy Writ, and not me. I don't care if you mock me, you can do that all day long and it won't mean anything though. If you want the Truth, then you MUST stay in God's Word as written, and listen to HIM, and not the leaven traditions of men.
 

Spirit Covenant

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I agree there is no biblical foundation for a rapture.

The new testament makes it clear that everyone who is not dead will be here until the end. The last trump.
 

Alanforchrist

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There are NO Scriptures in God's Word that prove a Pre-trib Rapture idea. If there were, you would have immediately been able to provide some, as I can easily do to show that theory is false...

DIRECT STATEMENT BY CHRIST:

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
(KJV)

The other part of that is in the Mark 13:24-27 Scripture.

The rest of you post is nothing but 'mouthing', and is actually a mocking against God's Holy Writ, and not me. I don't care if you mock me, you can do that all day long and it won't mean anything though. If you want the Truth, then you MUST stay in God's Word as written, and listen to HIM, and not the leaven traditions of men.



PLEASE NOTE, The tribes of the earth, NOT THE CHRISTIANS.

The "Clouds" are the pre-trib raptured Christians.

As I have said, There are to many scriptures that prove the pre-trib rapture for it not to be true.

Where do you find the Church going through the tribulation period???. I don't meant the Elect Jews or the backsliders,
I mean the Church,, YOU DON'T.
 

veteran

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PLEASE NOTE, The tribes of the earth, NOT THE CHRISTIANS.

The "Clouds" are the pre-trib raptured Christians.

As I have said, There are to many scriptures that prove the pre-trib rapture for it not to be true.

Where do you find the Church going through the tribulation period???. I don't meant the Elect Jews or the backsliders,
I mean the Church,, YOU DON'T.

I just showed you the proof, our Lord Jesus' OWN Words. But you deny Him when you deny what He said there in Matt.24:29-31. You're not arguing with me, you're arguing directly with our Lord Jesus Christ, for He is Who said it, not me.
 
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