Not Saved by Faith nor Works alone, but by faith with works.

[dhh712]

Anyone who has read my posts here knows I am no proponent of sinless perfection. And may also know that I certainly do not believe that God's word reveals that works are needed to attain salvation. However, God does reveal to us that faith without works is a dead faith. I want to say that is in James.

Salvation is by faith alone, but works are the evidence of salvation. Also in God's word he speaks by the apostle that "I will show you my faith by my works".

If one does not have any good works done to the glory of God which he has prepared for us to do, then (though I certainly do not stand in the place of Jesus to judge) but I would seriously doubt this person's salvation. There would just be no evidence of it.

 

[robert derrick]

Our works of faith are works of the Spirit through faith.

How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Offering up ourselves to God on our own cross for Jesus' sake, is the lifetime work of the Spirit we do through faith, even as Jesus did on His own cross.

Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

The Spirit works in us with divine power to cleans and purify our spirit and soul, that we may through faith do the spiritual work of living blamelessly.

And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Where there are no works of faith, there is no Spirit working in us, nor through us in our works of the Spirit through faith.

 

[robert derrick]

Anyone who has read my posts here knows I am no proponent of sinless perfection. And may also know that I certainly do not believe that God's word reveals that works are needed to attain salvation. However, God does reveal to us that faith without works is a dead faith. I want to say that is in James.

Salvation is by faith alone, but works are the evidence of salvation. Also in God's word he speaks by the apostle that "I will show you my faith by my works".

If one does not have any good works done to the glory of God which he has prepared for us to do, then (though I certainly do not stand in the place of Jesus to judge) but I would seriously doubt this person's salvation. There would just be no evidence of it.

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Faith is evidence and substance, which is works of faith, without which there is no faith: No works of faith, no faith, no salvation.

 

[robert derrick]

No. it is not and you even quoted the verse which says "by GRACE through FAITH" + nothing. So the one with false doctrine is Robert Derrick.

True. Adding alone is adding something, where nothing ought be to the scripture.

I am saved by grace through faith, and I am justified by works of faith, and not by faith only.

 

[robert derrick]

Performance based works salvation is garbage faith of unbelieving hypocrites.

True. Which is why I don't believe it nor teach it, and has nothing to do with it.

Lying about the teaching corrects nothing, but only confirms it cannot be corrected.

 

[mailmandan]

True. Adding alone is adding something, where nothing ought be to the scripture.

I am saved by grace through faith, and I am justified by works of faith, and not by faith only.

Do you believe that you are justified (accounted as righteous) by works of faith or justified (shown to be righteous) by works of faith?

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

 

[mailmandan]

True. Which is why I don't believe it nor teach it, and has nothing to do with it.

Reread the title. We are not saved by works, but we are not saved without works of faith.

So you are saying here that works of faith 'precede' being justified by faith/accounted as righteous/saved?

Without the works, you are not saved nor justified, but are left with your own faith and imagination alone.

Oxymoron and apparently that is what you are saying. Works 'precede' saved/justified/accounted as righteous so I wasn't lying.

Lying about the teaching corrects nothing, but only confirms it cannot be corrected.

I'm not the one who is lying and you seem to have a bad habit of calling people liars who are not lying, which is slander and slander is sin. Below you called Blue Dragonfly a liar.

When you have to lie about the teaching, the teaching is likely true.

robert derrick said: You faith alone sinners call it works based, not me. Just reread the title, then try again.

To say that you are saved by both faith and works is works based salvation. Faith alone sinners? Do you claim to have never sinned?

Faith with works is Scripture. Faith alone is dead.

James is talking about an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains alone - "barren of works." (James 2:14) Not to be confused with faith that trusts in Christ alone for salvation and results in producing good works. (Ephesians 2:8-10)

 

[mailmandan]

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Faith is evidence and substance, which is works of faith, without which there is no faith: No works of faith, no faith, no salvation.

So you define faith "as" works of faith? So faith is not established according to you UNTIL it produces works? You said it yourself. No works of faith, no faith, no salvation. You clearly teach salvation by faith AND works.

I once quoted Ephesians 2:8,9 to a Roman Catholic and clarified that we are saved by grace through faith, not works and the Roman Catholic responded by saying, "I know that." Then after we discussed it a little deeper, it turns out the Roman Catholic misinterpreted Ephesians 2:8,9 as such: Saved by grace through faith "infused" with good works/works of faith, just not by specific works of the law. So basically what this Roman Catholic is saying is that we are saved through faith + "these" works (good works/works of faith) just not "those" works (merely limited, specific works of the law) which sounds like what you teach, yet that is not what Paul was saying.

*I discovered the ROOT of the problem of the Roman Catholic misinterpretation. That Roman Catholic also made this statement below:

We ARE saved by faith - as long as you properly define "Faith".Faith is NOT simply "believing". Faith INCLUDES: Being baptized, eating His body and drinking His blood/partaking the Lord's Supper during Mass, works of mercy and charity, obeying his commandments, doing the will of the Father etc..

His argument about faith being defined as and INCLUDES these works above is just sugar coated double talk and equates to salvation through faith (his version of faith) + works. Roman Catholics seem to think by not teaching that justification comes through perfect obedience to the law that they are not teaching salvation by works, yet they still claim that we are saved by accomplishing this check list of works above. His contradictory argument was just smoke and mirrors.

 

[Blue Dragonfly's]

True. Which is why I don't believe it nor teach it, and has nothing to do with it.

Lying about the teaching corrects nothing, but only confirms it cannot be corrected.

You teach?

 

[farouk]

Anyone who has read my posts here knows I am no proponent of sinless perfection. And may also know that I certainly do not believe that God's word reveals that works are needed to attain salvation. However, God does reveal to us that faith without works is a dead faith. I want to say that is in James.

Salvation is by faith alone, but works are the evidence of salvation. Also in God's word he speaks by the apostle that "I will show you my faith by my works".

If one does not have any good works done to the glory of God which he has prepared for us to do, then (though I certainly do not stand in the place of Jesus to judge) but I would seriously doubt this person's salvation. There would just be no evidence of it.

Hi @dhh712 James's Epistle indeed fits well with Ephesians 2.10 about believers being Gods workmanship, 'created in Christ Jesus unto good works'. This of course does not negate what Paul says clearly in the preceeding verses 8 and 9 ........

 

[robert derrick]

Do you believe that you are justified (accounted as righteous) by works of faith or justified (shown to be righteous) by works of faith?

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

A solid question, thanks. I go by use of the word in Scripture, not by definitions of the language.

There is only one justification by Christ written in Scripture, and it doesn't include transgressors of His law.

But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

The only clarification of justification in Scripture is of being made righteous, which is by obeying Christ:

For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Which of course confirms being justified by works of faith, which cannot be without faith, and is in obedience to the faith of Jesus.

Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name.

The mistake is trying to differ between being made righteous and being righteous, which are the same thing. The only difference in Scripture is being imputed righteousness by faith, and being righteous when doing righteousness:

Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

 

[robert derrick]

So you are saying here that works of faith 'precede' being justified by faith/accounted as righteous/saved?

They accompany one another equally:

But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

The error of the carnal mind is insisting there must be some temporal timeline between faith and works.. The first works of Jesus' faith that we do, is to immediately begin cleansing our minds of every tempting thought against Christ. By first cleansing within the platter, it is then easy to cleanse the hands also, and ascend unto the hill of the Lord with a pure heart and clean hands.

Once you stop thinking like a Pharisee, that all works are outward only, then you'll stop trying to separate the faith of Christ from His spiritual works of faith in and through us: there is never one without the other.

The weapons of our warfare are spiritual first, to bring every unrighteous thought into the obedience of Christ. These are the first works of our first love of God with the heart. (Rev 2:3)

Oxymoron and apparently that is what you are saying. Works 'precede' saved/justified/accounted as righteous so I wasn't lying.

You misread it and Scripture that way, because you still carnally think that way. The spiritual mind of Christ knows where the battle and the works begin by faith: within the platter first.

I'm not the one who is lying and you seem to have a bad habit of calling people liars who are not lying, which is slander and slander is sin. Below you called Blue Dragonfly a liar.

You both purposely twist teachings you don't like into the absurd. When we teach saved and justified by faith with works, you call it works-based, as though it were works first, then believe. I've already corrected you enough in this willful habit of yours.

To say that you are saved by both faith and works is works based salvation.

As I said, you purposely misstate to make it absurd. Saying we are saved by faith with works is faith with works based salvation. Your mind cannot comprehend such things, because they threaten you faith alone based salvation, which is imaginary only.

To say that you are saved by both faith and works is works based salvation. Faith alone sinners?

Most faith alone OSAS believers declare they are sinners for life, and condemn anyone as boastful who do not confess the same. I just call people what they call themselves, but without all the fluffy greace-sepak.

Do you claim to have never sinned?

Of course not. I'm Jesus in the flesh again.

Hyperbole deserves hyperbole.

James is talking about an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains alone - "barren of works." (James 2:14) Not to be confused with faith that trusts in Christ alone for salvation and results in producing good works. (Ephesians 2:8-10)

Nor are they to be separated from being justified by Christ, without which there is no justification of Christ.

And you are purposely trying to say being saved and justified by faith alone without works, is trusting in Jesus alone. I trust in Jesus alone, and my faith is not alone, but with works justified of Him.

 

[robert derrick]

You teach?

Not to you. I don't waste my time anymore.

 

[Blue Dragonfly's]

Not to you. I don't waste my time anymore.

Thank God for small favors.

That you teach anyone given your demeanor and ignorance of scripture here, explains why the Ekklesia is such a mess due to false teachers.

 

[mailmandan]

A solid question, thanks. I go by use of the word in Scripture, not by definitions of the language.

Glad you thought so. That question does cut right to the heart of the matter.

There is only one justification by Christ written in Scripture, and it doesn't include transgressors of His law.

But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

The only clarification of justification in Scripture is of being made righteous, which is by obeying Christ:

For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Which of course confirms being justified by works of faith, which cannot be without faith, and is in obedience to the faith of Jesus.

So you believe that the word "justified" receives a broad brushed definition of "accounted as righteous" throughout all of scripture and you reject that it can also mean, "shown to be righteous?"

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist. (Luke 7:29) Now of course, this act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." That is the "sense" in which God was "justified." He was shown to be righteous.

Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name.

The mistake is trying to differ between being made righteous and being righteous, which are the same thing. The only difference in Scripture is being imputed righteousness by faith, and being righteous when doing righteousness:

Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

In regards to Romans 1:5, although Paul can speak of people’s initial response of choosing to believe the gospel as an act of obedience, in which he describes it as "obeying the gospel" (Romans 10:16; 1:16), the purpose of Paul’s apostleship was not merely to bring people to conversion but also to bring about transformed lives that were obedient to God. Notice that Paul said they HAVE (already) received grace and apostleship FOR/UNTO obedience to the faith. Just as in Ephesians 2:10, Paul said that we are created in Christ Jesus FOR/UNTO good works. We are clearly saved FOR good works and NOT BY good works. (Ephesians 2:8-10). Paul did not say that they did not receive grace and apostleship until they produced obedience afterwards. We have access by faith into grace.. Romans 5:2 not faith "and obedience/works." We are saved through faith in Christ first, then "unto" obedience/works.

In regards to 1 John 1:7, we see a distinction between children of God and children of the devil. read - Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; (children of God practice righteousness BECAUSE they are righteous and not in order to become righteous.) 8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

 

[Blue Dragonfly's]

Glad you thought so. That question does cut right to the heart of the matter.

So you believe that the word "justified" receives a broad brushed definition of "accounted as righteous" throughout all of scripture and you reject that it can also mean, "shown to be righteous?"

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist. (Luke 7:29) Now of course, this act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." That is the "sense" in which God was "justified." He was shown to be righteous.

In regards to Romans 1:5, although Paul can speak of people’s initial response of choosing to believe the gospel as an act of obedience, in which he describes it as "obeying the gospel" (Romans 10:16; 1:16), the purpose of Paul’s apostleship was not merely to bring people to conversion but also to bring about transformed lives that were obedient to God. Notice that Paul said they HAVE (already) received grace and apostleship FOR/UNTO obedience to the faith. Just as in Ephesians 2:10, Paul said that we are created in Christ Jesus FOR/UNTO good works. We are clearly saved FOR good works and NOT BY good works. (Ephesians 2:8-10). Paul did not say that they did not receive grace and apostleship until they produced obedience afterwards. We have access by faith into grace.. Romans 5:2 not faith "and obedience/works." We are saved through faith in Christ first, then "unto" obedience/works.

In regards to 1 John 1:7, we see a distinction between children of God and children of the devil. read - Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; (children of God practice righteousness BECAUSE they are righteous and not in order to become righteous.) 8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

Bob teaches.

 

[Behold]

Adding alone to faith is adding to Scripture false doctrine.

The Cult theology of : works + FAITH = Salvation, as if "faith AND WORKS are accepted by God", is a doctrine of Devils.

Here is the verse you need.

"Faith is Counted as Righteousness".

And this...:

Salvation is a Gift.
"the GIFT of SALVATION"'
So..

If you have to work for it, to get it or to keep it, then its not a GIFT., it becomes an obligation you have put on God to reimburse you for your works.

Forget it.
That'll never happen as long as Christ has Died on the Cross.
If He didnt, then just keep trying to work your way into heaven.

 

[mailmandan]

They accompany one another equally:

But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

Hebrews 6:9 sums up Hebrews 6:4-6. The writer is speaking to those truly saved (refers to them as BELOVED). He says that even though he speaks like this concerning THOSE types of people, He is convinced of better things concerning YOU. Things that ACCOMPANY SALVATION. Thorns and briars and falling away permanently do not accompany salvation and are not fruits worthy of authentic repentance.

The error of the carnal mind is insisting there must be some temporal timeline between faith and works.. The first works of Jesus' faith that we do, is to immediately begin cleansing our minds of every tempting thought against Christ. By first cleansing within the platter, it is then easy to cleanse the hands also, and ascend unto the hill of the Lord with a pure heart and clean hands.

Works do not happen simultaneously the very moment that faith in Christ for salvation is first established. I received Christ through faith several years ago on a late Saturday night and my first response after realizing I had just become born again was exceeding joy and praising to the Lord! I was water baptized on Sunday morning and immediately began sharing the gospel with my family and friends, which went on for multiple days. This did not all happen simultaneously the very moment that my faith in Christ for salvation was first established.

Once you stop thinking like a Pharisee, that all works are outward only, then you'll stop trying to separate the faith of Christ from His spiritual works of faith in and through us: there is never one without the other.

I know how Pharisees think. They trust in works for salvation, which does not describe me. Luke 18:9 - Also He spoke this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: (that doesn't describe me) 10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other men—extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.’ 13 And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me a sinner!’ (that's exactly how I came to Christ and until we get to the end of the creature we will not get to the beginning of the Creator) 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

The weapons of our warfare are spiritual first, to bring every unrighteous thought into the obedience of Christ. These are the first works of our first love of God with the heart. (Rev 2:3)

This does not happen simultaneously the moment we receive salvation through faith in Christ. Growing from babes in Christ to spiritual maturity in Christ takes time. When a baby is born, it does not instantly become an adult.

You misread it and Scripture that way, because you still carnally think that way. The spiritual mind of Christ knows where the battle and the works begin by faith: within the platter first.

Understanding the difference between being justified (accounted as righteous) by faith and not by works (Romans 4:2-6) and being justified (shown to be righteous) by works "afterwards" is not carnal minded thinking. In James 2:21, James did not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was shown to be righteous.

You both purposely twist teachings you don't like into the absurd. When we teach saved and justified by faith with works, you call it works-based, as though it were works first, then believe. I've already corrected you enough in this willful habit of yours.

Either you believe that we are saved through faith, not works or through faith and works. I believe the former, yet you seem to believe the latter.

As I said, you purposely misstate to make it absurd. Saying we are saved by faith with works is faith with works based salvation. Your mind cannot comprehend such things, because they threaten you faith alone based salvation, which is imaginary only.

Prior to my conversion several years ago while still attending the Roman Catholic church, I mistakenly believed we were saved by both faith and works, which is the only thing that the natural man can understand. (1 Corinthians 2:14) Prior to my conversion, I basically defined faith "as" works and wrapped both faith and works up in a package, then stamped "faith" on the package, making no distinction between faith and works. I used to define faith "as" multiple acts of obedience/works. After my conversion, the blinders were immediately removed and I finally understood the difference.

Now man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is substantiated, evidenced by works. (James 2:14-24). Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works. (Romans 3:24-28) It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-24) *Perfect Harmony*

Most faith alone OSAS believers declare they are sinners for life, and condemn anyone as boastful who do not confess the same. I just call people what they call themselves, but without all the fluffy greace-sepak.

Faith alone OSAS believers understand that they are not sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, absolutely perfect 100% of the time exactly as Jesus was. (Romans 3:23; 6:23; 1 John 1:8-10) Boasting in self comes from the sinless perfection crowd.

As for me: Galatians 6:14 - But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

Of course not. I'm Jesus in the flesh again.

Hyperbole deserves hyperbole.

So you don't claim sinless perfection as a professing Christian?

Nor are they to be separated from being justified by Christ, without which there is no justification of Christ.

Then why did the apostle say - "But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works." (Romans 4:5-6) Also, in Ephesians 2:8,9 why did the apostle Paul say - "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. That is a crystal clear separation.

And you are purposely trying to say being saved and justified by faith alone without works, is trusting in Jesus alone. I trust in Jesus alone, and my faith is not alone, but with works justified of Him.

I trust in Christ alone for salvation and my faith has not remained alone - "barren of works." Now either we are trusting in Christ alone for salvation or else we are trusting in Christ (at best for the most part) but are also trusting in works for salvation as well. We can't have it both ways. It's not 50% Christ and 50% works that saves us or 90% Christ and 10% works that save us. It's 100% Christ. He is the ALL-SUFFICIENT means of our salvation. Once again, it is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-24)

 

[robert derrick]

The Cult theology of : works + FAITH = Salvation,

More habitual lying about the teaching of others, that disputes faith alone sinners.

Salvation and justification by Christ is by faith with works, or as James simply says, Justified by works, and not by faith only.

as if "faith AND WORKS are accepted by God", is a doctrine of Devils.

But they do it with Scripture, so why not teaching of Scripture.

If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Being justified and accepted by God is by doing well, and proving what is good will is by works of His faith and righteousness.

But what can be expected by people who declare letters on paper mean nothing to them, but only what they tell themselves in the vain imagination of their own corrupt minds.

 

[robert derrick]

Now that you're not corrupting what I teach by labelling it as something else, but rather challenge it fairly, then I am more than glad to be corrected, if you do so by Scripture and reasonable argument.

So you believe that the word "justified" receives a broad brushed definition of "accounted as righteous" throughout all of scripture and you reject that it can also mean, "shown to be righteous?"

You've got it backwards. I've been confining justification to being made righteous and being righteous, which you call showing the righteousness of God, which Scripture calls being justified by works through faith, and not by faith alone.

I say accounted righteousness is imputed righteousness, which I have been arguing is God's desire and love for righteousness put into any man's heart, that believes Him and His word to be true.

But until the doing of it, the person has not been made righteous, nor is being righteous, no is justified by Christ: being something by thinking it alone, is the vanity of people with no character nor substance.

As Paul said of the charity promises of the churches of God to the poor saints at Jerusalem, now follow through and do it:

Now therefore perform the doing of it; that as there was a readiness to will, so there may be a performance also out of that which ye have.

By purpose of desire and declaration of will, we are imputed the righteousness of our intent by faith, but until we do it, it is only intent by faith alone. And if the time of doing passes, and we do it not, then our faith is counted as dead. God sees no righteousness in vain promises of faith.

Faith alone Christians will acknowledge this simple truth among men, but not when it comes to God, because God to them is just a Spirit and not a real person to be accountable to, nor do they honor Jesus a real man to be doing as He did. By their own doctrine, the man Jesus is more of an idol to praise abundantly with their lips, but not a real man that they can actually be expected to live like and walk like, even as He lived and walked in the flesh.

Now of course, this act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." That is the "sense" in which God was "justified." He was shown to be righteous..

This of course is where we disagree, as I have with others in the game of semantics. No man is made righteous who is not being righteous, which is only by doing righteousness. This is what God says in Scripture, and makes it clear that by obedience, even as Jesus was made the Justifier, so by obedience are we made righteous:

For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

I've told you this already: the one Scripture that speaks of being made righteous is with obedience.

Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." That is the "sense" in which God was "justified." He was shown to be righteous..

His way of course being how to live, not just how to think. Jesus is the way. He is not just a thinker, but a doer. His new and living way was shown us, which as you say is the justification of showing the righteousness by doing it.

In regards to Romans 1:5, although Paul can speak of people’s initial response of choosing to believe the gospel as an act of obedience, in which he describes it as "obeying the gospel" (Romans 10:16; 1:16),

That's your words, not Scripture. You try to make acknowledging the truth to be obeying the truth, which of course is not accepted among serious adults. God is not just a Spirit, who does not expect the doing of something, in order to justify believing it.

Where there is no doing of it, there is only faith alone, which cannot justify any man with Christ.

Notice that Paul said they HAVE (already) received grace and apostleship FOR/UNTO obedience to the faith.

True, that is what faith and grace are for: obeying the truth of God's righteousness. Without the obeying, the faith and grace is ineffectual. Light is for seeing, but without seeing, the light is made of none effect by the willfully blind. So it is with the cross of Jesus. Without taking up our own cross, as He did His, His cross is made of none effect to us, no matter how much we say we believe and are saved and are justified by our own faith and grace alone.

In regards to 1 John 1:7, we see a distinction between children of God and children of the devil. read - Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; (children of God practice righteousness BECAUSE they are righteous and not in order to become righteous.) 8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

And so we agree: only the doers of His righteousness are the righteous as He is righteous. And no man doing the sin of the devil is righteous, nor the righteousness of Christ, nor justified by Him.

We have a disagreement over definition of terms, but so long as the end result is the same, then to me it can be intellectually interesting, but not really important. So long as any believer knows we are not justified by our own faith alone, but are only justified by those works of faith being produce by the Spirit, then I have no disagreement at all.

All that remains of course, is the doing of it, not just agreeing and teaching it.

You seem to agree with the teaching that we are first justified by faith alone, and then 'fully' justified by works of faith. I don't agree with that, but so long as it is practiced, then the result is the same: being 'fully' justified by works of faith, and not by faith alone, which I suppose would be partially.

So long as justification does not permanently remain separated from works, as the classic OSAS faith aloners teach, then the result is the same.

OSAS faith aloners invent for themselves a foolish failsafe, to believe they are still justified only by what they think in their hearts, even if they are being children of the devil by what they do with their words and deeds.

And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.

For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.