Not Saved by Faith nor Works alone, but by faith with works.

[robert derrick]

So you define faith "as" works of faith? So faith is not established according to you UNTIL it produces works? You said it yourself. No works of faith, no faith, no salvation. You clearly teach salvation by faith AND works.

Yes.

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Faith is the substance and the evidence. It is not faith + substance and evidence. The substance and evidence of faith is works of faith. Itis not faith + works of faith.

The carnal mind only see and acknowledges works of faith as physical, and not as spiritual where it begins.

The first works of faith are spiritual in the ongoing warfare against tempting thoughts of the mind, in order to purify and keep pure the heart from lusting after the flesh.

I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:

Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

It impossible to have the faith of Jesus and not be doing the spiritual work of Christ within ourselves first.

I have already told you this twice, without response.

We ARE saved by faith - as long as you properly define "Faith".Faith is NOT simply "believing". Faith INCLUDES: Being baptized, eating His body and drinking His blood/partaking the Lord's Supper during Mass, works of mercy and charity, obeying his commandments, doing the will of the Father etc..

His argument about faith being defined as and INCLUDES these works above is just sugar coated double talk and equates to salvation through faith (his version of faith) + works.

True. Without our work of faith to spiritually cleanse ourselves first, then no amount of works, as by law or religious demand can justify us. The Pharisee was not justified, because his cup and platter was still unclean within.

It's not faith + works, but faith with works. It is the same for the trinity: it's not the Father + the Son, but the Father with the Son. Neither the Father is without the Son, nor the Son without the Father, and so it is with faith and works, neither is without the other.

Man can have his own faith without works by His own imagination, but not have the faith of Jesus without the first works of Christ we do within us.

For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus is not warning us to be better at the works of the law outwardly, but to exceed the outward righteousness of the Pharisee by cleansing within our spirit first:

Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

OSAS faith alone is vain imagination only, and is not justified, because they neither clean within nor without the cup and platter. They are not as righteous as the Pharisee.

We are made more righteous than the Pharisee by our faithful work in Christ, to cleanse within first and always, even as He is pure in spirit, that we may cleanse our hands and lives of all works of the flesh.

Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

Who shall ascend into the hill of the LORD? or who shall stand in his holy place? He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart; who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully.

I have also spoken of these things before to you, without response.

 

[mailmandan]

Yes.

Sigh..

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Faith is the substance and the evidence. It is not faith + substance and evidence. The substance and evidence of faith is works of faith. Itis not faith + works of faith.

That is incorrect. Faith is not works of faith. Faith is faith and works of faith or works produced out of faith are works. Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. By faith we trust in evidence that we don't see. This does not mean works evidence of faith. (KJV) Other translations read - faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. (NAS) faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see. (NIV)

The carnal mind only see and acknowledges works of faith as physical, and not as spiritual where it begins.

The carnal mind mixes faith and works together and makes no distinction between faith and works. The end result is works righteousness.

The first works of faith are spiritual in the ongoing warfare against tempting thoughts of the mind, in order to purify and keep pure the heart from lusting after the flesh.

I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:

Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

Works of faith or works produced out of faith that are spiritual are still the demonstrative evidence of faith and not the very essence of faith.

It impossible to have the faith of Jesus and not be doing the spiritual work of Christ within ourselves first.

Some people merely think they are doing the spiritual work of Christ. There are many deceived people in the world who profess to be Christians. (Matthew 7:22-23) Believers have received the Holy Spirit and the Bible talks about the fruit of the Spirit. (Galatians 5:22-23)

I have already told you this twice, without response.

It's not always easy to respond to what sounds like psycho babble.

True. Without our work of faith to spiritually cleanse ourselves first, then no amount of works, as by law or religious demand can justify us. The Pharisee was not justified, because his cup and platter was still unclean within.

Back to works righteousness. Sigh..

It's not faith + works, but faith with works. It is the same for the trinity: it's not the Father + the Son, but the Father with the Son. Neither the Father is without the Son, nor the Son without the Father, and so it is with faith and works, neither is without the other.

Once again you make no distinction between faith and works which culminates in works righteousness in contradiction to scripture. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).

Man can have his own faith without works by His own imagination, but not have the faith of Jesus without the first works of Christ we do within us.

Either we have faith in Jesus Christ for salvation or else we don't. If we have authentic faith in Christ then our faith will be accompanied by works. Works don't produce faith, but faith produces works.

For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus is not warning us to be better at the works of the law outwardly, but to exceed the outward righteousness of the Pharisee by cleansing within our spirit first:

Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

Bottom line. You are seeking salvation by personal holiness/performance/works righteousness. This is where we strongly disagree. You also hint of sinless perfection. Jesus clearly pointed out that the righteousness of the Pharisees was defective. The righteousness that exceeds the "righteousness of the scribes and the Pharisees" (self righteousness) is the righteousness of God which is from God by faith.

Philippians 3:9 - and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith.

Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works.

OSAS faith alone is vain imagination only, and is not justified, because they neither clean within nor without the cup and platter. They are not as righteous as the Pharisee.

Once again, you just condemned all OSAS faith (in Christ) alone believers, which is a disturbing judgment call that is well above your pay grade, which makes it impossible for me to take you seriously. You seem to have an issue with self righteousness so what makes you think you are more righteous than the Pharisees? Self righteousness is vain imagination only. (Luke 18:9)

We are made more righteous than the Pharisee by our faithful work in Christ, to cleanse within first and always, even as He is pure in spirit, that we may cleanse our hands and lives of all works of the flesh.

Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

Who shall ascend into the hill of the LORD? or who shall stand in his holy place? He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart; who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully.

Your misinterpretation of scripture culminates in works salvation. Hearts are purified by faith and not by works. (Acts 15:7-9) Again, we are made more righteous than the Pharisee by faith and not by works. (Romans 3:24-28; 4:5-6; Philippians 3:9 etc..).

I have also spoken of these things before to you, without response.

Not a gotcha moment. I have responded and it doesn't look like you and I will ever come to a complete agreement.

 

[robert derrick]

You reject the teaching. No problem. I'll keep my faith with works, and you can have your dead faith alone without works.

I have no faith without works, even as I know I have no love without doing it:

My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

The righteousness that exceeds the "righteousness of the scribes and the Pharisees" (self righteousness) is the righteousness of God which is from God by faith.

Nope. The righteousness that exceeds that of the law-keeping Pharisee, is by cleansing ourselves first through the Spirit within the platter, as Jesus commands us all to do, that we may be righteous in deed and in truth, and not just in outward deeds of the law.

And, if you are not keeping the deeds of the law as much as a Pharisee, then your righteousness is less than a Pharisee.

In any case, you are no better than a Pharisee, since you reject the spiritual work of our warfare within our souls.

You seem to have an issue with self righteousness so what makes you think you are more righteous than the Pharisees? Self righteousness is vain imagination only. (Luke 18:9)

Yes, like Paul, I do have an issue of self-righteous Pharisees, since like Saul of Tarsus, I was one. But now my righteousness is greater than before, because I now spiritually cleanse my spirit first, as well as the outside of the platter.

Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

As Jesus said, I began to not leave undone inwardly what is most important, while not forsaking the other outwardly

This is of course the same area of willful spiritual blindness and neglect on your part.

There are self-righteous Pharisees by works alone, and there are self-justified Christians by faith alone.

Some people merely think they are doing the spiritual work of Christ. There are many deceived people in the world who profess to be Christians. (Matthew 7:22-23) Believers have received the Holy Spirit and the Bible talks about the fruit of the Spirit. (Galatians 5:22-23)

Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

(For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ.

You speak against the Spiritual warfare we are commanded to fight, because you are wilfully blind to it, because you don't want to fight it.

The way of Jesus is truly light and easy, but not slothful. You are a spiritual sloth by choice.

You speak of spiritually resisting the devil as self-righteousness, because you are too slothful to do it.

Your misinterpretation of scripture culminates in works salvation. Hearts are purified by faith and not by works. (Acts 15:7-9)

So you say of Jesus:

Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble. Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.


You speak of Jesus as a false teacher, simply because of reject our spiritual work of faith, which Jesus calls the first works of our first love, and warns the Ephesian church not to neglect. (Revv 2:4,5)

In the same way others of your doctrine, call Jesus a great deceiver and antichrist, who bashes Christians over the head with the doctrine of enduring unto the end for eternal salvation:

Yet hath he not root in himself, but endureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

Not a gotcha moment. I have responded and it doesn't look like you and I will ever come to a complete agreement.

Once again, You mistake me. I have no thought whatsoever to gotchu in anything. Exercising myself in the truth of Scripture by correcting your words, and exposing your contradictions of Scripture, is for my sake, and anyone else they may agree.

 

[robert derrick]

Works of faith or works produced out of faith that are spiritual are still the demonstrative evidence of faith and not the very essence of faith.

God's faith is the substance and the evidence thereof.

The essence of man's faith alone without the works thereof, is essentially hot air.

Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience.

Either we have faith in Jesus Christ for salvation or else we don't. If we have authentic faith in Christ then our faith will be accompanied by works. Works don't produce faith, but faith produces works.

Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

And so you contradict Scripture.

Faith and works, work together at the same time to perfect one another. Without one, there is not the other.

Bottom line. You are seeking salvation by personal holiness/performance/works righteousness. This is where we strongly disagree. You also hint of sinless perfection. Jesus clearly pointed out that the righteousness of the Pharisees was defective. The righteousness that exceeds the "righteousness of the scribes and the Pharisees" (self righteousness) is the righteousness of God which is from God by faith.

True I am seeking to be justified by Christ, by faith and works together, and so to be found clothed in white by Him at His appearing.

But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

Doing His righteousness is clothing ourselves of Him.

Our strong disagreement, is that any man is justified by Christ, while sinning against Him with the devil.

They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

While doing the works of the flesh that deny Christ, the unrighteous sinner is denying Christ and found naked, and all their faith is hot air profession only, and there is no respect of persons with Christ.

If you say you are already justified by Christ forever by your own faith alone, then you exclude yourself from Paul and me, who do seek to be justified by Christ by works of faith, that do not sin against Him.

Philippians 3:9 - and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith.

Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works.

The difference between being justified by works of the law after the flesh, which Paul had come out of, and justified by the works of faith through the Spirit, which James teaches, has already been given. You reject it.

We are imputed the righteousness of being forgiven of past sins, and we remain justified by Christ through works of faith without the past sinning:

But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.

We are both saved and justified by faith, and we remain saved and justified by works of faith.

Once again, you just condemned all OSAS faith (in Christ) alone believers,

Another dishonest effort to transform having dead faith alone, into believing in Jesus alone.

If you want to teach the truth of having faith in Jesus alone, and not having faith alone without works, then I would be more than glad to join you.

But you haven't enough character to do so. Instead, you play childish games.

 

[mailmandan]

Now that you're not corrupting what I teach by labelling it as something else, but rather challenge it fairly, then I am more than glad to be corrected, if you do so by Scripture and reasonable argument.

You've got it backwards. I've been confining justification to being made righteous and being righteous, which you call showing the righteousness of God, which Scripture calls being justified by works through faith, and not by faith alone.

I say accounted righteousness is imputed righteousness, which I have been arguing is God's desire and love for righteousness put into any man's heart, that believes Him and His word to be true.

But until the doing of it, the person has not been made righteous, nor is being righteous, no is justified by Christ: being something by thinking it alone, is the vanity of people with no character nor substance.

As Paul said of the charity promises of the churches of God to the poor saints at Jerusalem, now follow through and do it:

Now therefore perform the doing of it; that as there was a readiness to will, so there may be a performance also out of that which ye have.

By purpose of desire and declaration of will, we are imputed the righteousness of our intent by faith, but until we do it, it is only intent by faith alone. And if the time of doing passes, and we do it not, then our faith is counted as dead. God sees no righteousness in vain promises of faith.

Faith alone Christians will acknowledge this simple truth among men, but not when it comes to God, because God to them is just a Spirit and not a real person to be accountable to, nor do they honor Jesus a real man to be doing as He did. By their own doctrine, the man Jesus is more of an idol to praise abundantly with their lips, but not a real man that they can actually be expected to live like and walk like, even as He lived and walked in the flesh.

This of course is where we disagree, as I have with others in the game of semantics. No man is made righteous who is not being righteous, which is only by doing righteousness. This is what God says in Scripture, and makes it clear that by obedience, even as Jesus was made the Justifier, so by obedience are we made righteous:

For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

I've told you this already: the one Scripture that speaks of being made righteous is with obedience.

His way of course being how to live, not just how to think. Jesus is the way. He is not just a thinker, but a doer. His new and living way was shown us, which as you say is the justification of showing the righteousness by doing it.

That's your words, not Scripture. You try to make acknowledging the truth to be obeying the truth, which of course is not accepted among serious adults. God is not just a Spirit, who does not expect the doing of something, in order to justify believing it.

Where there is no doing of it, there is only faith alone, which cannot justify any man with Christ.

True, that is what faith and grace are for: obeying the truth of God's righteousness. Without the obeying, the faith and grace is ineffectual. Light is for seeing, but without seeing, the light is made of none effect by the willfully blind. So it is with the cross of Jesus. Without taking up our own cross, as He did His, His cross is made of none effect to us, no matter how much we say we believe and are saved and are justified by our own faith and grace alone.

Too much psycho babble.

And so we agree: only the doers of His righteousness are the righteous as He is righteous. And no man doing the sin of the devil is righteous, nor the righteousness of Christ, nor justified by Him.

Only the righteous are doers of righteousness.

We have a disagreement over definition of terms, but so long as the end result is the same, then to me it can be intellectually interesting, but not really important. So long as any believer knows we are not justified by our own faith alone, but are only justified by those works of faith being produce by the Spirit, then I have no disagreement at all.

We are justified (accounted as righteous) by our faith (in Christ alone) and are justified (shown to be righteous) by works thereafter. (Romans 4:2-6; James 2:14-24)

All that remains of course, is the doing of it, not just agreeing and teaching it.

All genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful. (Matthew 13:23)

You seem to agree with the teaching that we are first justified by faith alone, and then 'fully' justified by works of faith. I don't agree with that, but so long as it is practiced, then the result is the same: being 'fully' justified by works of faith, and not by faith alone, which I suppose would be partially.

I would not call it 'fully' justified by works of faith, as if being justified (accounted as righteous) comes in two phases with one being by faith and the second being by works, but we are justified (accounted as righteous) by faith FIRST, then SECOND we are justified (shown to be righteous) by works of faith.

So long as justification does not permanently remain separated from works, as the classic OSAS faith aloners teach, then the result is the same.

Justification does not permanently remain separated from works, or else we would have a mere profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith. (James 2:14) We are saved apart from the merit of works, yet authentic faith does not remain apart from the presence of works.

OSAS faith aloners invent for themselves a foolish failsafe, to believe they are still justified only by what they think in their hearts, even if they are being children of the devil by what they do with their words and deeds.

Straw man argument. Why do you hate OSAS and OSAS faith aloners so much? You may say, oh I don't hate them, yet you pour out a lot of slander against them!

And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.

For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

Not sure why you are citing these verses from scripture. Isaiah 28 is addressed to Israel and 1 Thessalonians 5 is discussing the day of the Lord.

 

[mailmandan]

You reject the teaching. No problem. I'll keep my faith with works, and you can have your dead faith alone without works.

I don't reject the truth and I don't have dead faith alone without works. (James 2:14) i have faith that trusts in Christ alone for salvation and not in works (Romans 4:5-6) yet my faith is not dead and produces works, so what you just said here is slander. Empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains alone (barren of works) and faith that trusts in Christ alone for salvation and produces works is not the same kind of faith and we also have two separate "alone's" in connection with two different things.

I have no faith without works, even as I know I have no love without doing it:

That's a lot of "I"

My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

Nope. The righteousness that exceeds that of the law-keeping Pharisee, is by cleansing ourselves first through the Spirit within the platter, as Jesus commands us all to do, that we may be righteous in deed and in truth, and not just in outward deeds of the law.

I already explained the righteousness that exceeds the righteousness of the so called law-keeping Pharisee and it's the righteousness which is of God by faith, which the Pharisees did not have. (Romans 10:1-4)

And, if you are not keeping the deeds of the law as much as a Pharisee, then your righteousness is less than a Pharisee.

We are not justified by the deeds of the law. (Romans 3:24-28; Galatians 2:16)

In any case, you are no better than a Pharisee, since you reject the spiritual work of our warfare within our souls.

More slander.

Yes, like Paul, I do have an issue of self-righteous Pharisees, since like Saul of Tarsus, I was one. But now my righteousness is greater than before, because I now spiritually cleanse my spirit first, as well as the outside of the platter.

Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

As Jesus said, I began to not leave undone inwardly what is most important, while not forsaking the other outwardly

This is of course the same area of willful spiritual blindness and neglect on your part.

There are self-righteous Pharisees by works alone, and there are self-justified Christians by faith alone.

Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

(For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ.

You speak against the Spiritual warfare we are commanded to fight, because you are wilfully blind to it, because you don't want to fight it.

The way of Jesus is truly light and easy, but not slothful. You are a spiritual sloth by choice.

You speak of spiritually resisting the devil as self-righteousness, because you are too slothful to do it.

So you say of Jesus:

Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble. Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

You speak of Jesus as a false teacher, simply because of reject our spiritual work of faith, which Jesus calls the first works of our first love, and warns the Ephesian church not to neglect. (Revv 2:4,5)

In the same way others of your doctrine, call Jesus a great deceiver and antichrist, who bashes Christians over the head with the doctrine of enduring unto the end for eternal salvation:

Yet hath he not root in himself, but endureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

Once again, You mistake me. I have no thought whatsoever to gotchu in anything. Exercising myself in the truth of Scripture by correcting your words, and exposing your contradictions of Scripture, is for my sake, and anyone else they may agree.

I'm sorry, but it's impossible to have a reasonable conversation with you and your straw man arguments and slander are uncalled for. Being judgmental, mean spirited and self righteous is not not helping your case at all.

 

[mailmandan]

God's faith is the substance and the evidence thereof.

God's faith? Is it not our faith? (1 Peter 1:9)

The essence of man's faith alone without the works thereof, is essentially hot air.

The essence of faith trusts in Christ alone for salvation. Works follow as the fruit of faith, but not the essence of faith. An empty profession of faith/dead faith that produces no works is hot air.

Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience.

Keep reading from verse 5 to verse 10...even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), through faith, not works, created in Christ Jesus unto good works...

Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

Abraham was justified (shown to be righteous) by works.

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

Don't forget that James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)

And so you contradict Scripture.

Faith and works, work together at the same time to perfect one another. Without one, there is not the other.

No contradiction on my part at all. In James 2:22, faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean that Abraham was finally saved based on the merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

True I am seeking to be justified by Christ, by faith and works together, and so to be found clothed in white by Him at His appearing.

Seeking to be justified (accounted as righteous) by both faith and works is a fatal mistake. (Romans 4:2-6; 5:1; 11:6; Ephesians 2:8,9)

Our strong disagreement, is that any man is justified by Christ, while sinning against Him with the devil.

So justified/accounted as righteous/saved by faith and works and sinless perfection? Is that the gospel according to robert?

If you say you are already justified by Christ forever by your own faith alone, then you exclude yourself from Paul and me, who do seek to be justified by Christ by works of faith, that do not sin against Him.

After getting past the psycho babble, all I hear is works salvation.

The difference between being justified by works of the law after the flesh, which Paul had come out of, and justified by the works of faith through the Spirit, which James teaches, has already been given. You reject it.

More psycho babble and James teaches that we are justified (shown to be righteous) by works (James 2:13-24) and not accounted as righteous by works in contradiction with Paul. (Romans 4:2-6)

We are imputed the righteousness of being forgiven of past sins, and we remain justified by Christ through works of faith without the past sinning:

We are both saved and justified by faith, and we remain saved and justified by works of faith.

Remain saved by works? This is classic "type 2 works salvation." From beginning "have been" saved through faith (Ephesians 2:8) to end "receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls" (1 Peter 1:9) salvation is by grace through faith and is NOT BY WORKS.

Another dishonest effort to transform having dead faith alone, into believing in Jesus alone.

Dead faith that does not trust in Christ alone for salvation is not alive in Christ and does not produce works of faith. Faith that trusts in works for salvation (even if it's only in part) is not a living faith no matter how many so called works of faith that you attempt to conjure up through the flesh in a vain effort to either obtain or maintain salvation by works.

If you want to teach the truth of having faith in Jesus alone, and not having faith alone without works, then I would be more than glad to join you.

But you haven't enough character to do so. Instead, you play childish games.

I have been straight forward with you and have made it crystal clear that it is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-26) *Perfect Harmony* Either you have ears to hear or else you don't.

 

[robert derrick]

Too much psycho babble.

True, we're talking around in circles now. Good exercise in Scriptural doctrine only lasts so long. If you believe no man can be justified by faith alone, but must produce the works of faith in time in order to be justified, then fine.

But at that time, it will not include also doing evil. Abraham was justified when he offered up Isaac and proved to God and himself once for all, that the works of the flesh would no more come between God and himself, as they did before in the matter of Sarah in Egypt: He was now a Friend of God. Friends don't betray friends, and so Christians don't betray God our Friend by sinning for the devil against Him.

God's faith? Is it not our faith? (1 Peter 1:9)

Jesus' faith becomes our faith, when we receive it in the heart to do it spiritually and bodily, even as the Savior and Lord Jesus Christ becomes our Lord and Savior when we receive Him by faith to obey Him.

Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ.

To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.

The Catholics are correct in speaking of the same common faith of the church, just not in what they teach for it.

The essence of faith trusts in Christ alone for salvation. Works follow as the fruit of faith, but not the essence of faith. An empty profession of faith/dead faith that produces no works is hot air.

So is this humanist teaching about 'essence' vs what God teaches of substance and evidence, which is works of faith.

As the Kung Fu Panda so wisely said, "I can't live on essence of celestial dew."

Keep reading from verse 5 to verse 10...even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), through faith, not works, created in Christ Jesus unto good works...

Were dead in trespasses and sin means no longer a dead sinner and trespasser, which is only by repentance of sins and trespasses, which begins with our first work of faith to repent of lusting to sin by tempting thoughts to do so: the first work of faith we do by the Spirit of Christ, are spiritual in our thinking first.

Once you stop the carnal mindedness that thinks works are of the body only, then there won't be all this arguing about how our faith in Jesus cannot possibly ever be apart and alone temporally before works.

The faith of Jesus is the substance of the works of the Spirit to immediately begin tearing down, rejecting, and casting down any and all thoughts for sin in the mind from the devil. Sinners and trespassers don't do that, but are selective about which temptations of sin to pursue and allow or not.

Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

(For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds. Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ.

I'll be looking to see if you even acknowledge this argument of Scripture. If you do, then you can at least temporally reduce your timeline between faith and works of faith, because in the Spirit things work quick, fast, and immediately, even in a moment of time:

For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

It doesn't mean that Abraham was finally saved based on the merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.

Scripture isn't saying anything about Abraham being saved after he had offered up Isaac, but of being justified with God after he had offered up Isaac. If you're going to dispute Scripture with me, then you have to stick with what Scripture says.

So justified/accounted as righteous/saved by faith and works and sinless perfection? Is that the gospel according to robert?

The good ol' perfectionism card played against the righteous. If you want to call not doing sinful works of the flesh with the devil against God, perfectionism, then so be it.

More psycho babble and James teaches that we are justified (shown to be righteous) by works (James 2:13-24) and not accounted as righteous by works in contradiction with Paul. (Romans 4:2-6)

I don't argue any difference between imputed righteousness and being made righteous anymore. But no man is justified by faith alone without the works of faith. And no man is saved by Christ, who is not also justified by Christ.

We are imputed the righteousness of being forgiven of past sins, and we remain justified by Christ through works of faith without the past sinning:

Agreed.

Remain saved by works? This is classic "type 2 works salvation." From beginning "have been" saved through faith (Ephesians 2:8) to end "receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls" (1 Peter 1:9) salvation is by grace through faith and is NOT BY WORKS.

If you are separating being saved by faith from being justified by works of faith, then there is your classic OSAS delusion.

No man is saved apart from be justified by Christ. Your carnally temporal timeline between faith and works is the cause for this. Try considering the spiritual works of faith, and then you'll drop the carnal timeline argument:

Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

Once again, I'll be waiting to see if you even address this. If not soon, then we'll have nothing more to talk about, because it will just be more endless circling to no profit.

Dead faith that does not trust in Christ alone for salvation is not alive in Christ and does not produce works of faith.

That is true doctrine, which is not the heresy of OSAS, where they declare they are saved and justified by their own faith alone, separate and apart from any need of works of faith, and has nothing to do with believing in Jesus alone.

Faith that trusts in works for salvation (even if it's only in part) is not a living faith no matter how many so called works of faith that you attempt to conjure up through the flesh in a vain effort to either obtain or maintain salvation by works.

A purposely convoluted way of saying we cannot go on sinning and still be saved and justified by Christ. But I'll take it.

All you have to say is no works of faith are needed to be justified by Christ, and no works of flesh against Christ has anything to do with being saved and justified by Him.

I say no to this OSAS heresy. And you?

I have been straight forward with you and have made it crystal clear that it is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-26) *Perfect Harmony* Either you have ears to hear or else you don't.

Agreed. Our faith should be in Jesus alone and not in ourselves, nor in other men, nor in other gods, and that faith will be accompanied with good works of His righteousness to be saved and justified by Him.

Without faith in Jesus we cannot be forgiven and saved, and without works of faith in Jesus, we cannot be sanctified and justified by Him.

 

[mailmandan]

True, we're talking around in circles now.

And will continue to do so.

Scripture isn't saying anything about Abraham being saved after he had offered up Isaac, but of being justified with God after he had offered up Isaac. If you're going to dispute Scripture with me, then you have to stick with what Scripture says.

Abraham was saved many years before he offered up Isaac and was said to be justified (shown to be righteous) by works in James 2:21.

The good ol' perfectionism card played against the righteous. If you want to call not doing sinful works of the flesh with the devil against God, perfectionism, then so be it.

Works righteousness is not righteousness and neither is sinless perfection. (Romans 4:5-6; 1 John 1:8-10) It's about the direction of our walk and not the perfection of our walk. Self righteous people base everything on their performance.

I don't argue any difference between imputed righteousness and being made righteous anymore. But no man is justified by faith alone without the works of faith. And no man is saved by Christ, who is not also justified by Christ.

Just another way of saying that we are saved by BOTH faith AND works. Maybe a difference in style from the way other works-salvationists explain it, but it's still the same in substance.

If you are separating being saved by faith from being justified by works of faith, then there is your classic OSAS delusion.

You couldn't see the separation in Romans 4:2-6? Abraham was justified (accounted as righteous) in Genesis 15:5-6 when he believed God and was justified (shown to be righteous) by works many years later in Genesis 22 when he offered his son Isaac up on the altar. This did not happen simultaneously and Abraham was not saved by works. Everything with you is filtered through your anti-OSAS narrative.

No man is saved apart from be justified by Christ. Your carnally temporal timeline between faith and works is the cause for this. Try considering the spiritual works of faith, and then you'll drop the carnal timeline argument:

Whether you like it or not, there is a timeline between justified (accounted as righteous) by faith and being justified (shown to be righteous) by works. For Abraham, several years expired between Genesis 15:6 and Genesis 22.

Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

Once again, I'll be waiting to see if you even address this. If not soon, then we'll have nothing more to talk about, because it will just be more endless circling to no profit.

People who teach sinless perfection are very fond of 2 Corinthians 7:1. This cleansing our lives from things that opposed to God is how a believer participates with God in the process of ongoing or progressive sanctification. This is what we strive to do.

Matthew 23:26 is addressed to Pharisees who are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean. On the outside they appear to people as righteous but on the inside are full of hypocrisy and wickedness. Descriptive of those who are not saved.

That is true doctrine, which is not the heresy of OSAS, where they declare they are saved and justified by their own faith alone, separate and apart from any need of works of faith, and has nothing to do with believing in Jesus alone.

Salvation by works and sinless perfection is heresy. (Romans 4:5-6; 11:6; 1 John 1:8-10) Your biased hatred towards OSAS and condemning of ALL OSAS believers exposes your true colors.

All you have to say is no works of faith are needed to be justified by Christ, and no works of flesh against Christ has anything to do with being saved and justified by Him.

Man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is substantiated, evidenced by works. (James 2:14-24) Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works. It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-24) Simple!

I say no to this OSAS heresy. And you?

I don't believe that OSAS is heresy and I also don't believe that you properly represent the OSAS doctrine or OSAS believers. Your views and harsh and biased. If I claimed that ALL NOSAS believers teach salvation by works and will not be saved, would you call that harsh and biased? Now I don't claim to believe that, but I think you get my point.

Agreed. Our faith should be in Jesus alone and not in ourselves, nor in other men, nor in other gods, and that faith will be accompanied with good works of His righteousness to be saved and justified by Him.

Without faith in Jesus we cannot be forgiven and saved, and without works of faith in Jesus, we cannot be sanctified and justified by Him.

I still keep hearing "type 2 works salvation" (not saved until after works are performed and salvation is also based on and these works) from you yet I doubt there is anything else I can say that will change your mind. Your beliefs are fixed and your conscience appears to be seared.

 

[robert derrick]

Whether you like it or not, there is a timeline between justified (accounted as righteous) by faith and being justified (shown to be righteous) by works. For Abraham, several years expired between Genesis 15:6 and Genesis 22.

And so you choose to remain carnal minded in your doctrine. You reject Jesus' command to cleanse within the platter first. You're a Pharisee without even the righteousness of the law.

This is the primary carnal minded error of all OSAS: You have nothing to do with the divine power of the Spirit of Christ to continually cleanse our minds of all tempting thoughts, and so keep our hearts pure from lust.

This is the reformation that Jesus brings to all believers, and you reject it.

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[mailmandan]

And so you choose to remain carnal minded in your doctrine. You reject Jesus' command to cleanse within the platter first. You're a Pharisee without even the righteousness of the law.

This is straight up slander. You are a false accuser of the brethren.

Proverbs 10:18 - Whoever hides hatred has lying lips, And whoever spreads slander is a fool.
1 Peter 2:1 - So put away all malice and all deceit and hypocrisy and envy and all slander.

This is the primary carnal minded error of all OSAS:

Your obsession with relentlessly attacking OSAS exposes your carnal mind.

You have nothing to do with the divine power of the Spirit of Christ to continually cleanse our minds of all tempting thoughts, and so keep our hearts pure from lust.

More slander. Your continued false accusations expose your true colors. Matthew 12:35 - A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good things, and an evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth evil things. 36 But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment. 37 For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.

This is the reformation that Jesus brings to all believers, and you reject it.

I never said I rejected the words of Jesus here, more slander and BTW, moral self-reformation is not a substitute for the new birth and regeneration. (John 3:3-5; Titus 3:5; 1 Peter 1:23)

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Oh the irony. The natural man is without the Holy Spirit. 1 Corinthians 2:11 - For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God. 13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[robert derrick]

Oh the irony. The natural man is without the Holy Spirit. 1 Corinthians 2:11 - For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God. 13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

True. With all the great many words and doctrinal speeches you have about imputed righteousness within verses works of faith to be justified by, you apparently know nothing of the works of faith we do spiritually within ourselves first. Of course, for you not to be spiritually blind to those spiritual works we do, all you need do is acknowledge our first works of faith are spiritually done within, so that they are physically seen without.

Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds, Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ.

Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.

We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

The first works of faith we do for Jesus and our soul's sake, is by His Spirit and divine power within us: we do the good work of keeping our hearts pure of lust and our minds clean of tempting unrighteous thoughts, that we may not sin against Him in spirit nor in the flesh.

Do you agree with this spiritual teaching of Scripture for where our works of faith must begin?

 

[mailmandan]

True. With all the great many words and doctrinal speeches you have about imputed righteousness within verses works of faith to be justified by, you apparently know nothing of the works of faith we do spiritually within ourselves first. Of course, for you not to be spiritually blind to those spiritual works we do, all you need do is acknowledge our first works of faith are spiritually done within, so that they are physically seen without.

For you to not be spiritually blind, all you need to do is believe the gospel. (2 Corinthians 4:3,4) Doing spiritual works that are of faith and are spiritually done within are done BECAUSE we are not spiritually blind and are not done in order to become spiritually unblind. You have it backwards. Your acknowledgement of first works of faith argument stems from a state of confusion on your part.

Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

The blind Pharisee was not a genuine believer and so was unclean within. The same can be said of Judas Iscariot. John 13:10 - Jesus said to him, “He who is bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you.” 11 For He knew who would betray Him; therefore He said, “You are not all clean.”

In John 15:3, Jesus said - You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.

In 1 Peter 1:23, we read - having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever. This is how we are cleansed on the inside. No amount of moral self-reformation can replace regeneration and make us clean on the inside.

Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds, Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ.

Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.

There is an internal cleansing that God alone does, but there is also a cleansing that God wants to do in cooperation with us. Here, Paul writes about a cleansing that isn’t just something God does for us as we sit by passively and it pertains to our ongoing or progressive sanctification. We are sanctified when we are saved in which we are set apart/made holy in standing before God positionally in Christ. 1 Corinthians 6:11 - Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

Yet we also see ongoing or progressive sanctification in which the reality of that holiness becomes more and more evident in our actions, words, thoughts, attitudes, and motives. 1 Thessalonians 4:3,4 - For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain from sexual immorality; that each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor. So becoming washed, sanctified and justified in Christ is a one time event, yet abstaining from sexual immorality is not a one time event. The believer possess a positional, judicial standing of righteousness in Christ and, second, an ongoing process of growth in practical, progressive holiness which becomes increasingly evident in our actions, words, thoughts, attitudes, and motives.

There is a main aspect of cleansing that comes to us as we trust in Jesus Christ for salvation and are born again and receive the washing of regeneration. This work of cleansing is God’s work in us and is not our work. There is another aspect of cleansing that God looks for us to do with the participation of our own will and effort; not that it is our work apart from God, but it is a work that awaits our will and effort: let us cleanse ourselves.

We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

This is not about sinless perfection. (1 John 1:8-10)

1 John 5:18 - We know [absolutely] that anyone born of God does not [deliberately and knowingly] practice committing sin, but the One Who was begotten of God carefully watches over and protects him [Christ’s divine presence within him preserves him against the evil], and the wicked one does not lay hold (get a grip) on him or touch [him]. (AMPC)

The first works of faith we do for Jesus and our soul's sake, is by His Spirit and divine power within us: we do the good work of keeping our hearts pure of lust and our minds clean of tempting unrighteous thoughts, that we may not sin against Him in spirit nor in the flesh.

This work is progressive and is not a one time event. Apparently, you mix up the work involved in ongoing sanctification with God's work of cleansing our hearts from sin when we are born again. Confusing justification with ongoing sanctification is a common error made by works-salvationists.

 

[robert derrick]

This work is progressive and is not a one time event. Apparently, you mix up the work involved in ongoing sanctification with God's work of cleansing our hearts from sin when we are born again. Confusing justification with ongoing sanctification is a common error made by works-salvationists.

[/QUOTE]
This is new. How is justification by works confused with ongoing sanctification of the spirit and flesh?

 

[robert derrick]

For you to not be spiritually blind, all you need to do is believe the gospel. (2 Corinthians 4:3,4) Doing spiritual works that are of faith and are spiritually done within are done BECAUSE we are not spiritually blind and are not done in order to become spiritually unblind. You have it backwards. Your acknowledgement of first works of faith argument stems from a state of confusion on your part.

I challenged you to show you were not spiritually blind, by acknowledging the spiritual war we must fight within our own hearts and minds, which Jesus calls the first works of cleansing within the platter first.

You have done so, and so I acknowledge your spiritual mindedness in this matter. You must therefore revise your view of how faith can ever stand alone from works of faith, when those works spiritually begin within our heart and mind.

Once we are first cleansed thoroughly by Jesus within, then the devil is now on the outside wanting to get back in, and so he immediately begins his assault of fiery darts on our minds, to turn us from the faith of righteousness:

And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.


↑
The blind Pharisee was not a genuine believer and so was unclean within.
[/QUOTE]
True, and there are plenty of Christian Pharisees who do not do the first works of cleansing ourselves spiritually within. The Ephesians were being warned by Jesus that they were becoming outward Pharisees only, after having been pure hearted saints. Our outward works can became natural to us, but our inward works are never natural, but always spiritual and must be kept clean and quick and sure.

↑
There is an internal cleansing that God alone does, but there is also a cleansing that God wants to do in cooperation with us.
[/QUOTE]

True. Once Jesus cleanses us within, we keep ourselves spiritually hand in hand with Him. I do not sin bodily as a Christian as I used to, because I began to practice His commandment to cleanse my spirit of ,my mind first. Where there is no lusting of the heart, there is no sinning with the flesh. Simple.

↑
Yet we also see ongoing or progressive sanctification in which the reality of that holiness becomes more and more evident in our actions, words, thoughts, attitudes, and motives. 1 Thessalonians 4:3,4 - For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain from sexual immorality; that each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor. So becoming washed, sanctified and justified in Christ is a one time event, yet abstaining from sexual immorality is not a one time event. The believer possess a positional, judicial standing of righteousness in Christ and, second, an ongoing process of growth in practical, progressive holiness which becomes increasingly evident in our actions, words, thoughts, attitudes, and motives.
[/QUOTE]

I don't agree with progressive sanctification for 2 reasons: Scripture doesn't say anything about progressiveness, which is a liberal term that never actually gets done. And because the Pharisee holiness types use it to continually add more and more details for how to be sanctified, which Paul calls carnal ordinances of men's commandments to taste not, touch not, drink not, eat not, etc...ad nauseum.

Being sanctified and washed means now, not some progressive time in future. The newborn babe in Christ has all the Spiritual and divine power recieved to immediately walk in newness of life, which includes bodily sanctification from any work of the flesh. It's doesn't take an hour, day, week, month nor year to stop fornicating, getting drunk, thieving, lying, and living riotously.

It is by double heartedness at any time, that such things are still being done, which we need repent of and return to the time of pure cleansing from filthiness of the spirit and flesh.

↑
There is a main aspect of cleansing that comes to us as we trust in Jesus Christ for salvation and are born again and receive the washing of regeneration. This work of cleansing is God’s work in us and is not our work. There is another aspect of cleansing that God looks for us to do with the participation of our own will and effort; not that it is our work apart from God, but it is a work that awaits our will and effort: let us cleanse ourselves.
[/QUOTE]
Completely agree. Our only difference then has been some temporal timeline between faith and works, which you now show is first within.

The simple truth by the parable of the sower, is that once we believe and are purified, the devil immediately comes back to take away our faith and steadfastness in Christ, by shooting tempting thoughts into our minds, to provoke lust back into our hearts.

If the flesh is sinning, it's because the heart is sinning lusting, because we are not spiritually fighting against temptations appearing in our minds.

↑
This is not about sinless perfection. (1 John 1:8-10)
[/QUOTE]
Sinless perfection is having a pure and perfect heart toward Christ, a cleansed conscience, and not sinning in the flesh today.

The arriving perfection of the resurrection is when the our mind and the body are forever perfected, so that we will no longer have any tempting thoughts to fight, because we will be as Him in glory, where we cannot be tempted nor sin.

I John is about them that say something that is not true for them, but are only claiming it, whether natural atheists that say there is no God, and so there is no sin against God, or OSAS believers that say they are already forgiven of all sinning, and so cannot have any sin to be judged for, or Pharisees who base their sinlessness upon outward works only.

Only the saints in Christ Jesus walking with Him in the Light as He walks, have no spiritual nor physical sinning to confess and repent of.

↑
1 John 5:18 - We know [absolutely] that anyone born of God does not [deliberately and knowingly] practice committing sin, but the One Who was begotten of God carefully watches over and protects him [Christ’s divine presence within him preserves him against the evil], and the wicked one does not lay hold (get a grip) on him or touch [him]. (AMPC)
[/QUOTE]

True. The will and desire to sin has been replaced with the will and desire to love God and do good. However, it only takes committing one sin to be committed to that sin, and so be guilty of committing all sin at that time, whether fornication, drunkenness, thieving, vile cursings, etc...

He that is committing sin is of the devil. No man is not of the devil, while sinning with Him against Jesus.

↑
This work is progressive and is not a one time event. Apparently, you mix up the work involved in ongoing sanctification with God's work of cleansing our hearts from sin when we are born again.
[/QUOTE]

Apparently you are still not reading only what I write, but what you want to think I am writing. I've explained it enough times for you to know the difference, and if you prefer not to see it, then that is just something you can keep saying, if it makes you feel good.

 

[mailmandan]

This is new. How is justification by works confused with ongoing sanctification of the spirit and flesh?

I was talking about justification by faith, which is a one time event and is not an ongoing process. (Romans 3:24-28; 4:2-6; 5:1)

 

[mailmandan]

I challenged you to show you were not spiritually blind, by acknowledging the spiritual war we must fight within our own hearts and minds, which Jesus calls the first works of cleansing within the platter first.

Your challenge is bogus and all believers are in a spiritual war (2 Corinthians 10:3-5) which is why we are called to put on the full armor of God. (Ephesians 6:10-17)

The term 'first works' is only found once in the Bible in Revelation 2:5. The Lord wanted the church at Ephesus to repent -- to change their minds regarding their works. "You have left your first love" (verse 4). "Repent and do the first works" (verse 5). Works of love no longer characterized the church as a whole in Ephesus. In verses 2 and 6, we see that the church in Ephesus was not totally displeasing to the Lord, yet hating the deeds of the Nicolaitans and standing up for doctrinal purity still cannot be a substitute for love.

You have done so, and so I acknowledge your spiritual mindedness in this matter. You must therefore revise your view of how faith can ever stand alone from works of faith, when those works spiritually begin within our heart and mind.

Your acknowledgment is based on your own biased misconceptions. It's not I who needs to revise their view. I understand that faith does not remain alone from works of faith which are spiritual within our heart and mind.

Once we are first cleansed thoroughly by Jesus within, then the devil is now on the outside wanting to get back in, and so he immediately begins his assault of fiery darts on our minds, to turn us from the faith of righteousness:

And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

Works of faith follow the cleansing within that comes only through regeneration and not by works of righteousness which we have done. (Titus 3:5) In regards to the seed that fell by the way side, in Luke 8:12, we read - Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Such people do not represent those who were cleansed thoroughly by Jesus within. The seed did not take root in their hearts and they were not saved.

True, and there are plenty of Christian Pharisees who do not do the first works of cleansing ourselves spiritually within.

There are plenty of 'pseudo' Christian Pharisees who do not truly believe and are not saved and are not spiritually cleansed within. Only God can spiritually cleanse us within through the washing of regeneration. Works cannot accomplish this. John 13:10 - Jesus said to him, “He who is bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you."

The Ephesians were being warned by Jesus that they were becoming outward Pharisees only, after having been pure hearted saints. Our outward works can became natural to us, but our inward works are never natural, but always spiritual and must be kept clean and quick and sure.

More eisegesis.

True. Once Jesus cleanses us within, we keep ourselves spiritually hand in hand with Him. I do not sin bodily as a Christian as I used to, because I began to practice His commandment to cleanse my spirit of, my mind first. Where there is no lusting of the heart, there is no sinning with the flesh. Simple.

That's a lot of "I". So you claim to be sinless, 100% of the time? Exactly like Jesus?

I don't agree with progressive sanctification for 2 reasons: Scripture doesn't say anything about progressiveness, which is a liberal term that never actually gets done. And because the Pharisee holiness types use it to continually add more and more details for how to be sanctified, which Paul calls carnal ordinances of men's commandments to taste not, touch not, drink not, eat not, etc...ad nauseum.

Not surprised you don't agree with it. I already showed you in 1 Thessalonians 4:3,4 - For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain from sexual immorality; that each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor. This is ongoing or progressive and is not a one time event.

Being sanctified and washed means now, not some progressive time in future.

Yes and as I already explained, we are sanctified when we are saved in which we are set apart/made holy in standing before God positionally in Christ. 1 Corinthians 6:11 - Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.
Yet we also see ongoing or progressive sanctification (1 Thessalonians 4:3,4) in which the reality of that holiness becomes more and more evident in our actions, words, thoughts, attitudes, and motives.

The newborn babe in Christ has all the Spiritual and divine power recieved to immediately walk in newness of life, which includes bodily sanctification from any work of the flesh. It's doesn't take an hour, day, week, month nor year to stop fornicating, getting drunk, thieving, lying, and living riotously.

So you promote sinless perfection of the flesh and claim to have reached entire sanctification in this lifetime? Apparently, this is also what you have placed your faith in for salvation. YOURSELF.

It is by double heartedness at any time, that such things are still being done, which we need repent of and return to the time of pure cleansing from filthiness of the spirit and flesh.

Do you teach that salvation is maintained through sinless perfection?

Completely agree. Our only difference then has been some temporal timeline between faith and works, which you now show is first within.

You say that you completely agree, but I'm hearing otherwise through multiple other responses from you.

The simple truth by the parable of the sower, is that once we believe and are purified, the devil immediately comes back to take away our faith and steadfastness in Christ, by shooting tempting thoughts into our minds, to provoke lust back into our hearts.

The seed that fell by the way side does not represent a genuine believer who was purified. You talk a lot about lust. Those who are born of God have become partakers of the divine nature and have escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. (2 Peter 1:4)

If the flesh is sinning, it's because the heart is sinning lusting, because we are not spiritually fighting against temptations appearing in our minds.

There is always a spiritual battle as long as we are in our bodies in this sinful world. The flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another. The struggle is real!

Sinless perfection is having a pure and perfect heart toward Christ, a cleansed conscience, and not sinning in the flesh today.

Sinless perfection is never sinning at all and ONLY Jesus Christ met that perfect, holy standard. (Hebrews 4:15)

The arriving perfection of the resurrection is when the our mind and the body are forever perfected, so that we will no longer have any tempting thoughts to fight, because we will be as Him in glory, where we cannot be tempted nor sin.

Amen!

I John is about them that say something that is not true for them, but are only claiming it, whether natural atheists that say there is no God, and so there is no sin against God, or OSAS believers that say they are already forgiven of all sinning, and so cannot have any sin to be judged for, or Pharisees who base their sinlessness upon outward works only.

Or works-salvationists who say they will be saved based on their works. Are believers already forgiven of all sinning? Acts 13:39 - and by Him everyone who believes is justified from all things from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Only the saints in Christ Jesus walking with Him in the Light as He walks, have no spiritual nor physical sinning to confess and repent of.

Only genuine believers are in the Light. (Acts 26:18; 2 Corinthians 6:14; Ephesians 5:8)

True. The will and desire to sin has been replaced with the will and desire to love God and do good. However, it only takes committing one sin to be committed to that sin, and so be guilty of committing all sin at that time, whether fornication, drunkenness, thieving, vile cursings, etc...

So back to sinless perfection? You seem to underestimate the struggle between the flesh and the Spirit and you also underestimate the power of the cross and the blood of Christ.

Apparently you are still not reading only what I write, but what you want to think I am writing. I've explained it enough times for you to know the difference, and if you prefer not to see it, then that is just something you can keep saying, if it makes you feel good.

I've read enough of your psycho babble to know the difference.

 

[robert derrick]

Your challenge is bogus and all believers are in a spiritual war (2 Corinthians 10:3-5) which is why we are called to put on the full armor of God. (Ephesians 6:10-17)

And I thought I was commending you.

All people are in a spiritual war, whether they believe it or not, and only the saints are fighting it properly where it begins, within the spirit of the mind.

The term 'first works' is only found once in the Bible in Revelation 2:5. The Lord wanted the church at Ephesus to repent -- to change their minds regarding their works. "You have left your first love" (verse 4). "Repent and do the first works" (verse 5). Works of love no longer characterized the church as a whole in Ephesus. In verses 2 and 6, we see that the church in Ephesus was not totally displeasing to the Lord, yet hating the deeds of the Nicolaitans and standing up for doctrinal purity still cannot be a substitute for love.

True. They were becoming Pharisees with clean living outwardly only, but ceasing to purify and keep themselves clean within the platter.

It's not I who needs to revise their view. I understand that faith does not remain alone from works of faith which are spiritual within our heart and mind.

And so there can be no temporal timeline between faith standing all alone without our first works of the spirit. The devil immediately comes to corrupt the faith, and we must therefore immediately work by faith against his fiery darts. Otherwise, we become wayside hearers only.

Works of faith follow the cleansing within that comes only through regeneration and not by works of righteousness which we have done. (Titus 3:5)

And those works of faith are immediate, to keep our hearts clean of lust, by continually cleansing our minds of tempting thoughts, whensoever the devil sends them. These are the first and ongoing works of our spiritual warfare.

In regards to the seed that fell by the way side, in Luke 8:12, we read - Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Such people do not represent those who were cleansed thoroughly by Jesus within. The seed did not take root in their hearts and they were not saved

The word was in their heart, but they did not fight nor work to keep the faith. They had the seed of faith alone in their heart, and did no 1st works to keep it in their heart and do it.

There are plenty of 'pseudo' Christian Pharisees who do not truly believe and are not saved and are not spiritually cleansed within.

True. They do not confess sins to Jesus from the heart, that they may be clean, and so are not forgiven and cleansed.

Only God can spiritually cleanse us within through the washing of regeneration. Works cannot accomplish this. John 13:10 - Jesus said to him, “He who is bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you."

True, only Jesus can forgive past sins and wash clean all unrighteousness. And once cleansed, we then keep ourselves clean through His Spirit. Those who do not fight this spiritual war, subject themselves to all manner of filthiness of the mind, so that lust springs up once again to defile a once purified heart.

And these are they which are sown among thorns; such as hear the word, And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful.

 

[robert derrick]

That's a lot of "I". So you claim to be sinless, 100% of the time? Exactly like Jesus?

100% of the time I am awake. I now sleep every night, now that I am near retirement. And since you plainly are sinful some of the time and not exactly like Jesus at times, then you can confess and be forgiven and restored to His 100% fellowship. And if you ever get tired of sinning and confessing and being restored, as I did, then you can just repent of your doublemindedness and stop doing works of the flesh with the devil from time to time.

Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy? But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble. Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

Of course, you'd have to begin taking the spiritual warfare to the devil in earnest, and not just agree there is one.

Not surprised you don't agree with it. I already showed you in 1 Thessalonians 4:3,4 - For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain from sexual immorality; that each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor. This is ongoing or progressive and is not a one time event.

Of course, since it's ongoing and progressive, it never stops at any one time event. That's the beauty of it, right?

So you promote sinless perfection of the flesh and claim to have reached entire sanctification in this lifetime?

Today yes. I don't worry about the past that is gone, nor tomorrow that may not come.

Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before.

I mean, how much faith does it take not to lust after another for adultery, covet our neighbor's goods, think evil with malice to harm the innocent, leave our wounded neighbor in the gutter, steal from our business, vilely curse with our lips, idolize the things of this life, live riotously in the daytime...

So, since you are still doing of works of the flesh, just what commandment and law of Christ are you still violating and not keeping? If you're too ashamed to speak of them, then no problem. If you're not still doing works of the flesh, then why do you condemn others who aren't?

Do you teach that salvation is maintained through sinless perfection?

Yes, of course, which is the best way, but if we sin, we can be mercifully restored through confessing sin with godly sorrow and be forgiven and saved like any other soul that repents.

The seed that fell by the way side does not represent a genuine believer who was purified. You talk a lot about lust. Those who are born of God have become partakers of the divine nature and have escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. (2 Peter 1:4)

Then why do you continue speaking of doing works of the flesh, and condemning them that are not?

There is always a spiritual battle as long as we are in our bodies in this sinful world. The flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another. The struggle is real!

True. So long as we are in this world, our renewed yet unperfected minds, can still have tempting thoughts sent from the devil, so that we simply must immediately discard them by Christ's quickening spirit and remain obedient to Him only. Even as He did from His youth in obedience to the Father, for His own soul and our sakes, so we do for our own soul and His sake.

Sinless perfection is never sinning at all and ONLY Jesus Christ met that perfect, holy standard. (Hebrews 4:15)

And so, once again, when did you last forsake walking as He walks, and choose to sin with the devil instead?

Or works-salvationists who say they will be saved based on their works. Are believers already forgiven of all sinning? Acts 13:39 - and by Him everyone who believes is justified from all things from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Yes, all confessing their sins from the heart to Jesus are forgiven of all those past sins. And all that continue in that faith by grace depart from works of the flesh to please Him only. That is accomplished by our first works of cleansing our spirit and mind of all filthiness and temptations of the devil, that our flesh may be clean also.

Only genuine believers are in the Light. (Acts 26:18; 2 Corinthians 6:14; Ephesians 5:8)

True, those who with singleness and purity of heart walk with Him as He walked, and do not the unrighteous works of the flesh walking in darkness.

So back to sinless perfection? You seem to underestimate the struggle between the flesh and the Spirit and you also underestimate the power of the cross and the blood of Christ.

So let's see, you condemn sinless perfection, and then charge those not sinning with the devil, of underestimating the power of the cross and the blood of Christ.

Once being a committed Christian sinner as yourself, I understand your only estimation of the power of the blood of the Lamb, is for continued sinning, confession, and restored forgiveness, which is good for being saved, and is proof of the longsuffering mercy of God, so long as you don't become presumptive and conclude you're already forgiven while sinning.

However, that longsuffering is not a lifetime commitment, but is for full repentance once for all today, and not progressively waiting for tomorrow.

And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?

Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

So, if you ever do get tired of sinful living from time to time, and want to know what it is to walk worthy of Jesus in the Light, without darkening your steps in works of the flesh, then you can also cleanse all filthiness from your spirit and flesh just like any other singlehearted Christian saint.

That is if you want to.

Blessed are they that keep judgment, and he that doeth righteousness at all times.

 

[robert derrick]

OSAS now agrees that the only faith that saves, is that faith that is never alone.

They are redefining faith alone that saves, so that it is never really alone. Saving faith is only that faith, that is not alone.

What then makes any faith not alone? Works.

Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

God says that only works makes a faith not alone and dead. Therefore, OSAS now teaches that we are saved only through that faith that is with works, and is never alone. Which agrees with more Scripture, that no man can be saved by any faith that is alone without works:

What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

This form of OSAS faith that is never alone, I completely agree with: We are only saved and justified only by that faith in Jesus, that is always with His good works, and never dead being alone.

So long as faith alone remains alone, it is dead without works and saves no man. They faith that is still alone is for unsaved hearers only, who are not doing the word and works of faith in Christ Jesus.