Numbers 23:19: Big Problem

[friend of]

@Hidden In Him @marks @Enoch111 @Sabertooth @Nancy @GRACE ambassador @Ronald David Bruno @BARNEY BRIGHT @amadeus @FHII @michaelvpardo @ReChoired @Not me

Apologies if I've missed anyone. Feel free to invite.

Numbers 23:19

English Standard Version
God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?

New King James Version
“God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent. Has He said, and will He not do? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?

New Living Translation
God is not a man, so he does not lie. He is not human, so he does not change his mind. Has he ever spoken and failed to act? Has he ever promised and not carried it through?

—

First, Num 23:19 says God is not man. But Jesus Christ is both man and God. Why would God say He is not man? Jesus Himself was called "the Son of Man" during His earthly ministry. So why would this verse say that God is not a "Son of Man?

Second, Jesus, the begotten of God, is human. That which is begotten of, is of the same substance and nature as that which begets. Ergo, God the Father is also, and has eternally been, human Himself.

Third, there must never have been a time in the eternal existence of either God the Father or God the Son that they were not human, because if that were so, then that would mean Jesus changed in order to become something different. We know from scripture that God does not change: Malachi 3:6 , Hebrews 13:8 , Psalms 55:19 , Psalms 102:27.


I believe the truth of the holy scriptures are able to withstand any attacks on them, including this one, for they are the foundation of all truth and rightness. However, I do find this predicament to be troubling. Not game-breaking, just troubling. All help appreciated and God bless.

 

[marks]

First, Num 23:19 says God is not man. But Jesus Christ is both man and God. Why would God say He is not man? Jesus Himself was called "the Son of Man" during His earthly ministry. So why would this verse say that God is not a "Son of Man?

Hebrews 1:5 LITV
5) For to which of the angels did He ever say, "You are My Son; today I have begotten You"? And again, "I will be a Father to Him, and He shall be a Son to Me." Psalm 2:7

At the time God said this, Jesus had not yet incarnated, and actually wasn't yet named Jesus. He was called "the Messenger of YHWH".

Second, Jesus, the begotten of God, is human. That which is begotten of, is of the same substance and nature as that which begets. Ergo, God the Father is also, and has eternally been, human Himself.

Jesus is the "Monogenesis", only begotten, or, "of a single generation", or, "that which is uniquely generated". You ask a very interesting question here, I don't think I've ever seen this before, hat's off to you!!

Philippians 2:5-9 LITV
5) For think this within you, which mind was also in Christ Jesus,
6) who subsisting in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God,
7) but emptied Himself, taking the form of a slave, having become in the likeness of men
8) and being found in fashion as a man, He humbled Himself, having become obedient until death, even the death of a cross.
9) Because of this also God highly exalted Him and gave Him a name above every name,

1 Corinthians 15:45-49 LITV
45) So also it has been written, The first man, Adam, became a living soul, the last Adam a life-giving Spirit. Gen. 2:7
46) But not the spiritual first, but the natural; afterward the spiritual.
47) The first man was out of earth, earthy. The second Man was the Lord out of Heaven. Gen. 2:7
48) Such as is the earthy man, such also are the earthy ones. And such as is the heavenly Man, such also are the heavenly ones.
49) And as we bore the image of the earthy man, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.

I think these are relevant, but I want to give it some thought before I say anything.

Third, there must never have been a time in the eternal existence of either God the Father or God the Son that they were not human, because if that were so, then that would mean Jesus changed in order to become something different. We know from scripture that God does not change: Malachi 3:6 , Hebrews 13:8 , Pslams 55:19 , Psalms 102:27.

Again, I applaud the nature of your question, great stuff! If Jesus doesn't change, and Jesus is Human, then isn't He always Human?

So this seems to be at heart focused on what really is the hypostatic union, and how accurately does this describe Jesus Christ?

Again, I want to think on this a bit . . .

Great questions!

Much love!

 

[marks]

In the monogenesis, this indicates something unique, therefore not necessarily the same as other generations.

"A body you have prepared for me". Jesus was given a body to be able to offer it in sacrifice. A body He lives in, so He would be offering Himself as we know self. As one of us, but not actually one of us. Because we are corrupted by sin, therefore, He was not born into our fallen race, lest He be in a body corrupted like ours.

So He came a new Humanity, to give us a way out of this condemned humanity, to join Him in the new humanity.

Much love!

 

[Episkopos]

@Hidden In Him @marks @Enoch111 @Sabertooth @Nancy @GRACE ambassador @Ronald David Bruno @BARNEY BRIGHT @amadeus @FHII @michaelvpardo @ReChoired @Not me

Apologies if I've missed anyone. Feel free to invite.

Numbers 23:19

English Standard Version
God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?

New King James Version
“God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent. Has He said, and will He not do? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?

New Living Translation
God is not a man, so he does not lie. He is not human, so he does not change his mind. Has he ever spoken and failed to act? Has he ever promised and not carried it through?

—

First, Num 23:19 says God is not man. But Jesus Christ is both man and God. Why would God say He is not man? Jesus Himself was called "the Son of Man" during His earthly ministry. So why would this verse say that God is not a "Son of Man?

Second, Jesus, the begotten of God, is human. That which is begotten of, is of the same substance and nature as that which begets. Ergo, God the Father is also, and has eternally been, human Himself.

Third, there must never have been a time in the eternal existence of either God the Father or God the Son that they were not human, because if that were so, then that would mean Jesus changed in order to become something different. We know from scripture that God does not change: Malachi 3:6 , Hebrews 13:8 , Pslams 55:19 , Psalms 102:27.


I believe the truth of the holy scriptures are able to withstand any attacks on them, including this one, for they are the foundation of all truth and rightness. However, I do find this predicament to be troubling. Not game-breaking, just troubling. All help appreciated and God bless.

This is a case of God not being LIKE a man in the way he acts. For example...saints are in the world but not of the world. Jesus came into the world as the Son of Man not a son of man. He is unlike any person that ever lived. So there is no comparison there. The emphasis is not on WHERE Jesus is but WHO He is. Jesus was found in a human body...but he was not like any human that ever lived.

 

[amadeus]

@Hidden In Him @marks @Enoch111 @Sabertooth @Nancy @GRACE ambassador @Ronald David Bruno @BARNEY BRIGHT @amadeus @FHII @michaelvpardo @ReChoired @Not me

Apologies if I've missed anyone. Feel free to invite.

Numbers 23:19

English Standard Version
God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?

New King James Version
“God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent. Has He said, and will He not do? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?

New Living Translation
God is not a man, so he does not lie. He is not human, so he does not change his mind. Has he ever spoken and failed to act? Has he ever promised and not carried it through?

—

First, Num 23:19 says God is not man. But Jesus Christ is both man and God. Why would God say He is not man? Jesus Himself was called "the Son of Man" during His earthly ministry. So why would this verse say that God is not a "Son of Man?

Second, Jesus, the begotten of God, is human. That which is begotten of, is of the same substance and nature as that which begets. Ergo, God the Father is also, and has eternally been, human Himself.

Third, there must never have been a time in the eternal existence of either God the Father or God the Son that they were not human, because if that were so, then that would mean Jesus changed in order to become something different. We know from scripture that God does not change: Malachi 3:6 , Hebrews 13:8 , Pslams 55:19 , Psalms 102:27.


I believe the truth of the holy scriptures are able to withstand any attacks on them, including this one, for they are the foundation of all truth and rightness. However, I do find this predicament to be troubling. Not game-breaking, just troubling. All help appreciated and God bless.

Don't start with presumptions about what Jesus is or is not! Start..if you can from nothing and let God increase you from there!

I would guess the following members might also help resolve this...
@tigger 2
@Aunty Jane
@BARNEY BRIGHT

 

[Hidden In Him]

New King James Version
“God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent. Has He said, and will He not do? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?

Greetings, Friend Of.

My answer would be a combination of Posts #2 and #5. Jesus was not yet a man when these words were written, so it was in effect true at the time that God was not a man, and when God became a man He proved that He was different because He never sinned, whereas all other men did.

 

[amadeus]

Nancy said: ...He is always the same and so is Christ. Jesus did not change, per se' but He DID take on human form though. He set aside the glory He had with The Father in heaven in "the form" of humans, with all the temptations and trials that come with BEING human...nobody can say that He did not suffer as they, and THEN SOME...

Consider this:

"And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man." Luke 2:52

And this...

"Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever." Heb 13:8

 

[GISMYS_7]

Jesus is God and Jesus is 100% man and 100% human!! Think on that truth!

 

[Curtis]

@Hidden In Him @marks @Enoch111 @Sabertooth @Nancy @GRACE ambassador @Ronald David Bruno @BARNEY BRIGHT @amadeus @FHII @michaelvpardo @ReChoired @Not me

Apologies if I've missed anyone. Feel free to invite.

Numbers 23:19

English Standard Version
God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?

New King James Version
“God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent. Has He said, and will He not do? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?

New Living Translation
God is not a man, so he does not lie. He is not human, so he does not change his mind. Has he ever spoken and failed to act? Has he ever promised and not carried it through?

—

First, Num 23:19 says God is not man. But Jesus Christ is both man and God. Why would God say He is not man? Jesus Himself was called "the Son of Man" during His earthly ministry. So why would this verse say that God is not a "Son of Man?

Second, Jesus, the begotten of God, is human. That which is begotten of, is of the same substance and nature as that which begets. Ergo, God the Father is also, and has eternally been, human Himself.

Third, there must never have been a time in the eternal existence of either God the Father or God the Son that they were not human, because if that were so, then that would mean Jesus changed in order to become something different. We know from scripture that God does not change: Malachi 3:6 , Hebrews 13:8 , Psalms 55:19 , Psalms 102:27.


I believe the truth of the holy scriptures are able to withstand any attacks on them, including this one, for they are the foundation of all truth and rightness. However, I do find this predicament to be troubling. Not game-breaking, just troubling. All help appreciated and God bless.

Numbers was written long before Jesus left Gods form to take man’s form, per Philippians 2:6-7.

God the word of John 1:1 hadn’t incarnated into a human body, yet.

That solves half your dilemma.

 

[Curtis]

Hebrews 1:5 LITV
5) For to which of the angels did He ever say, "You are My Son; today I have begotten You"? And again, "I will be a Father to Him, and He shall be a Son to Me." Psalm 2:7

At the time God said this, Jesus had not yet incarnated, and actually wasn't yet named Jesus. He was called "the Messenger of YHWH".



Jesus is the "Monogenesis", only begotten, or, "of a single generation", or, "that which is uniquely generated". You ask a very interesting question here, I don't think I've ever seen this before, hat's off to you!!

Philippians 2:5-9 LITV
5) For think this within you, which mind was also in Christ Jesus,
6) who subsisting in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God,
7) but emptied Himself, taking the form of a slave, having become in the likeness of men
8) and being found in fashion as a man, He humbled Himself, having become obedient until death, even the death of a cross.
9) Because of this also God highly exalted Him and gave Him a name above every name,

1 Corinthians 15:45-49 LITV
45) So also it has been written, The first man, Adam, became a living soul, the last Adam a life-giving Spirit. Gen. 2:7
46) But not the spiritual first, but the natural; afterward the spiritual.
47) The first man was out of earth, earthy. The second Man was the Lord out of Heaven. Gen. 2:7
48) Such as is the earthy man, such also are the earthy ones. And such as is the heavenly Man, such also are the heavenly ones.
49) And as we bore the image of the earthy man, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.

I think these are relevant, but I want to give it some thought before I say anything.



Again, I applaud the nature of your question, great stuff! If Jesus doesn't change, and Jesus is Human, then isn't He always Human?

So this seems to be at heart focused on what really is the hypostatic union, and how accurately does this describe Jesus Christ?

Again, I want to think on this a bit . . .

Great questions!

Much love!

Because the body God incarnated into isn’t HIM, since per 2 Corinthians 5 our body is just a house our spirit lives in, that we leave at the death of the body..

God the logos chose to dwell in a house too, but the house is not HIM anymore than our house is US.

When His house died for 3 days, Jesus descended into the heart of the earth, and preached to the spirits in prison.

 

[Aunty Jane]

First, Num 23:19 says God is not man. But Jesus Christ is both man and God. Why would God say He is not man? Jesus Himself was called "the Son of Man" during His earthly ministry. So why would this verse say that God is not a "Son of Man?

It is assumed by many that Jesus was both "God and man" when he walked the earth...but nowhere is this stated in the Bible. It is misinterpreted from ambiguous verses to promote a doctrine which is not directly stated in scripture. e.g. John 1:1 which is one of the most mistranslated verses in the Bible. What that verse says in Greek is not how it is translated in English. The trinity was well and truly established long before the Bible was translated into other languages.

In calling himself the "son of man", Jesus was confirming his humanity. This is not a designation that is exclusive to Jesus, who was to fulfill the prophesy in Daniel 7:13-14 some 2,500 years later, where he is seen receiving his Kingship from his God and establishing God's rule over the earth forever. He taught his disciples to pray for God's Kingdom to "come" so that God's will could "be done on earth as it is in heaven".

In the Hebrew Scriptures, this expression was used for Ezekiel and Daniel, highlighting the difference between these mortal spokesmen and the divine Originator of their message. (Ezekiel 3:17; Daniel 8:17) Also Jesus retains that title even after his ascension to heaven. (Matthew 19:28; Matthew 20:28)

So God was never a man. He was a spirit son of God long before his earthly mission. He could not be the immortal God incarnate because immortals cannot die....and if Jesus did not really die the same death as Adam, he has not redeemed us and we are still doomed in our sinful state.

Second, Jesus, the begotten of God, is human. That which is begotten of, is of the same substance and nature as that which begets. Ergo, God the Father is also, and has eternally been, human Himself.

'Like produces like'....that is true, so how is it true for Jesus?
Being the "only begotten son" of his Father does not make him God, nor does it mean that God was ever human....it makes Jesus one who was in the same "form" as his Creator, having existed from creation's beginning in the spirit realm. (Colossians 1:15)

John 4:24 says that "God is a spirit", so Jesus, as the son of God, was also in spirit form. His Father transferred his life to the womb of a human woman so that he could be born sinless. God's law required equivalency i.e. 'like for like'. In order to redeem a slave from his servitude, a redeemer had to pay the exact debt that the slave owed to his master.

For Jesus to pay for the debt that Adam left for his children, he had to be the exact equivalent of that once sinless man. The "last Adam" cancelled what the first Adam did.

Adam's sin required the death penalty, but by introducing sin into the world, all of his children inherited his debt. (Romans 5:12) Only a redeemer with the required payment (a sinless life for a sinless life) could cancel that debt and free the ones held in servitude to it. Adam died for his own sin....Jesus died for ours. This is why Jesus had to come from outside the now sinful human race.....he died so that we could live the life that God had planned for us all along....perfect sinless life in paradise on earth.

Third, there must never have been a time in the eternal existence of either God the Father or God the Son that they were not human, because if that were so, then that would mean Jesus changed in order to become something different. We know from scripture that God does not change: Malachi 3:6 , Hebrews 13:8 , Pslams 55:19 , Psalms 102:27.

God was never in human form but Jesus and his elect have all been humans on earth and will make excellent rulers for us in heaven. (Revelation 20:6)

When the scriptures say that God and Jesus do not change...it doesn't mean that they are human and must remain human.
God was never a man, so he has not changed in any way....but Jesus had remained as a faithful "holy servant" of his God and Father since the beginning, no matter what form he was in. (Acts 4:27) His earthly mission was very brief and he taught us so much about his God and Father in his three and a half years as Messiah. But he was not to remain in human form. Once his flesh and blood were sacrificed, he was to return to his Father in heaven and "prepare a place" for his elect (John 14:1-4) who would rule with him in his Kingdom, bringing the blessings of its rule to all redeemed mankind. (Revelation 21:3-4)

That is how I would describe the Bible's teachings on those points.....

 

[friend of]

@Aunty Jane If you don't believ Jesus is God then I'm not sure we are going to agree on much. The doctrine I hold to is that Jesus is God.

So God was never a man. He was a spirit son of God long before his earthly mission. He could not be the immortal God incarnate because immortals cannot die....and if Jesus did not really die the same death as Adam, he has not redeemed us and we are still doomed in our sinful state.

Not being a human and then becoming a human means Jesus "changed"

The problem I have with this is that scripture says that God changes not. If you don't believe that Jesus is God we will probably not be at odds.

 

[friend of]

God was never a man, so he has not changed in any way....but

What about in the old Testament when he put Moses in the cleft of a rock and walked past him? Surely God the Father was in human form, walking past the cleft on two legs, with moses observing the back of his head and frame. Surely God had a human body at this time, so why conclude that the Father is not also human? So God had a human body but wasn't human? How does that work?

 

[Enoch111]

So why would this verse say that God is not a "Son of Man?

The context is important. Here God is contrasting Himself with ordinary human beings, who are fickle, changeable, and unreliable. The latter half of the verse explains why. When God says something then that is carved in stone. It will be fulfilled (unlike the broken promises of many). Everything that has been prophesied will be fulfilled.

 

[Nancy]

@Aunty Jane If you don't believ Jesus is God then I'm not sure we are going to agree on much. The doctrine I hold to is that Jesus is God.



Not being a human and then becoming a human means Jesus "changed"

The problem I have with this is that scripture says that God changes not. If you don't believe that Jesus is God we will probably not be at odds.

It seems to mean that He only changed in the fact that He "took on the (physical) form..." His character, same as The Father, never changed.

 

[Aunty Jane]

@Aunty Jane If you don't believ Jesus is God then I'm not sure we are going to agree on much. The doctrine I hold to is that Jesus is God.

But why do you believe that Jesus is God when he never said he was. He said he was "the Son of God" but nowhere did he ever say that he was "God the Son".....not once.

Not being a human and then becoming a human means Jesus "changed"

Only his appearance changed....not his personality or his dedication to his God and Father. I'm sure that those of us who were once young see a different image in the mirror now.....but its still us inside, we haven't changed just because we look different.

The problem I have with this is that scripture says that God changes not. If you don't believe that Jesus is God we will probably not be at odds.

God has never changed because he doesn't have to. He has had this time period set aside from the creation of the world.....a time period allotted to deal with all the choices of his free willed children, (both in heaven and on earth) so that he can get on with the rulership of his Kingdom and bring mankind back to what he intended in the first place....to enjoy everlasting live here on a paradise earth.

What about in the old Testament when he put Moses in the cleft of a rock and walked past him? Surely God the Father was in human form, walking past the cleft on two legs, with moses observing the back of his head and frame. Surely God had a human body at this time, so why conclude that the Father is not also human? So God had a human body but wasn't human? How does that work?

We really cant go by the mention of it in the Bible because Moses did not give us much detail...
The account in Exodus 33:18-23 reads...
"Then Moses said, “Please, show me Your glory!” 19 And He said, “I Myself will make all My goodness pass before you, and will proclaim the name of the Lord before you; and I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show compassion to whom I will show compassion.” 20 He further said, “You cannot see My face, for mankind shall not see Me and live!” 21 Then the Lord said, “Behold, there is a place by Me, and you shall stand there on the rock; 22 and it will come about, while My glory is passing by, that I will put you in the cleft of the rock and cover you with My hand until I have passed by. 23 Then I will take My hand away and you shall see My back, but My face shall not be seen.” (NASB)

Now analyse what is said.....
Jehovah said he would make his "goodness" pass before Moses. But he said, "you cannot see my face" because he would not survive the experience.....death would quickly follow.
When he said that he would place Moses in the cleft of the rock and that he would cover him with his hand.....Could a man cover a whole human with his hand? Moses is telling the story as a human having a supernatural experience. The Bible says that God is invisible, (Colossians 1:15) so how is it that he could grant Moses his request just to see his glory? Was Jehovah personally there on Mount Sinai that morning, so that Moses saw the actual “back” of God himself? Or was his glory and goodness all that Moses actually saw? We should not go beyond what is written.

Jehovah had told Moses: “mankind shall not see me and live.” And later the apostle John reported as fact: “No man has seen God at any time.” (John 1:18)
This was not the person of Jehovah because Moses would have not survived to tell the story.

 

[Curtis]

It is assumed by many that Jesus was both "God and man" when he walked the earth...but nowhere is this stated in the Bible. It is misinterpreted from ambiguous verses to promote a doctrine which is not directly stated in scripture. e.g. John 1:1 which is one of the most mistranslated verses in the Bible. What that verse says in Greek is not how it is translated in English. The trinity was well and truly established long before the Bible was translated into other languages.

Oops, still wrong:

Philippians 2:6-7 states Jesus existed in the form of God that He had by nature, and EMPTIED Himself to take the form of a man and humble servant.

He was God before and after incarnating as a man.

Colossians 2:9 states in Jesus dwells ALL the fullness of the Godhead, bodily.

The word Godhead is THEOTES, which means ‘the state of being God’ - thus in Jesus dwells ‘all the fullness of the state of BEING GOD’, bodily.

Fortunately, a shallow and incorrect knowledge of Jesus being divinity is not a salvation issue, because you can be on milk of the word and not on meat, and only believe Jesus is the son of God, and still be saved.

Unfortunately though, denying Jesus rose bodily from the dead, IS a salvational issue.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Oops, still wrong:

Philippians 2:6-7 states Jesus existed in the form of God that He had by nature, and EMPTIED Himself to take the form of a man and humble servant.

He was God before and after incarnating as a man.

Colossians 2:9 states in Jesus dwells ALL the fullness of the Godhead, bodily.

The word Godhead is THEOTES, which means ‘the state of being God’ - thus in Jesus dwells ‘all the fullness of the state of BEING GOD’, bodily.

Fortunately, a shallow and incorrect knowledge of Jesus being divinity is not a salvation issue, because you can be on milk of the word and not on meat, and only believe Jesus is the son of God, and still be saved.

Unfortunately though, denying Jesus rose bodily from the dead, IS a salvational issue.

You really are like a broken record....

Not a thing you said here is true and I have already shown you countless times why it isn't true.
So you just believe whatever you wish, and we will all see in the end who got it right, because Jesus will do the judging....not you or me.

 

[Deborah_]

First, Num 23:19 says God is not man. But Jesus Christ is both man and God. Why would God say He is not man? Jesus Himself was called "the Son of Man" during His earthly ministry. So why would this verse say that God is not a "Son of Man?

Second, Jesus, the begotten of God, is human. That which is begotten of, is of the same substance and nature as that which begets. Ergo, God the Father is also, and has eternally been, human Himself.

Third, there must never have been a time in the eternal existence of either God the Father or God the Son that they were not human, because if that were so, then that would mean Jesus changed in order to become something different. We know from scripture that God does not change: Malachi 3:6 , Hebrews 13:8 , Psalms 55:19 , Psalms 102:27.


I believe the truth of the holy scriptures are able to withstand any attacks on them, including this one, for they are the foundation of all truth and rightness. However, I do find this predicament to be troubling. Not game-breaking, just troubling. All help appreciated and God bless.

You can say "Jesus is God", but not "God is Jesus". The two statements are not interchangeable. God is the Father and the Spirit as well as the Son. Only the Son became human.
John states quite categorically, "The Word (i.e. the Son) became flesh." (John 1:14) So He wasn't human from the beginning.
When Scripture says that God does not change, it's referring to His character, His essential nature. That didn't change when the Son became human. As others have pointed out, the Numbers passage is contrasting God with humans - who don't hesitate to change their minds and break their promises.

 

[Curtis]

You really are like a broken record....

Not a thing you said here is true and I have already shown you countless times why it isn't true.
So you just believe whatever you wish, and we will all see in the end who got it right, because Jesus will do the judging....not you or me.

I am using scholarship and the Strongs exhaustive dictionary, and the incorrect broken record is you.

ESV the most accurate English bible according to biblical scholars:

Php 2:5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,

Php 2:6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,

Php 2:7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.

Php 2:8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.


Jesus clearly existed as God before incarnation as a man on earth.

Next:

Jesus is fully God and deity in the flesh:


Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.



In Colossians 2:9- the word Godhead is Theotes, which is defined in a Greek lexicon as:


New Testament Greek Lexicon


Strong's Number: 2320 Browse Lexicon

Original Word Word Origin

qeoteß from (2316)

Transliterated Word TDNTEntry

THEOTES 3:119,322

Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech

theh-ot'-ace Noun Feminine

Definition:

1. deity - the state of being God, Godhead

Godhead is defined as THE STATE OF BEING GOD - deity.


Thus the meaning of Colossians 2:9. is:


In Him dwells ALL the FULNESS of THE STATE OF BEING DEITY, and GOD, bodily.


Jesus is fully deity and God in the flesh.