Once saved, always saved is a myth.
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The Holy Spirit can leave and move out of a person who is willfully deciding to reject God, why can’t you say it’s true? Who rebounded their faith @Taken?
You’re doing like any other evangelical does and leave some truth here but leave out other truths that’s a disservice to your fellow men and women on this website my guy.
It’s very disheartening to see it. And with such fervor.
You’re doing like any other evangelical does and leave some truth here but leave out other truths that’s a disservice to your fellow men and women on this website my guy.
It’s very disheartening to see it. And with such fervor.
The common case to a person who falls out of faith, are looked at as “well they were never true to begin with.”
Who the hell are they to make that call?
They very well could have a very good relationship with Yahavah, and then decided ah, to hell with all of it and decide to go against and pull away from Yahavah.
There are many strange teaches on those things as though Yahavah won’t let them go.
If Yahavah is a God of forcing people to do something and they have no choice in the matter, that is not a good God.
Who the hell are they to make that call?
They very well could have a very good relationship with Yahavah, and then decided ah, to hell with all of it and decide to go against and pull away from Yahavah.
There are many strange teaches on those things as though Yahavah won’t let them go.
If Yahavah is a God of forcing people to do something and they have no choice in the matter, that is not a good God.
Taken
Well-Known Member
You continue over and over to say Gods Gift of salvation given a man can become taken away from Him….Does your repeating MAKE YOU delusional?
Personally, I believe when the Lord God SAYS FOR EVER, He does not Lie. And no, I do not Believe it is being delusional to repeatedly speak over, and over, and over what the Lord God teaches and promises.
Okay. Well I’m not gonna believe whatever you tell me on the internet either. Just know that.
You seem to do a disservice for your own saving grace, while displacing other parts of scripture as though they aren’t true.
Why should I ever trust you to tell me the truth?
Never put trust in humans right?
I have show other scriptures that suggest once saved always saved is a lie. People fall away.
”Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; while it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.“
Hebrews 3:12-15 KJV
May you never harden your heart, @Taken. God bless to you and your family, and all on this board.
Some of the traditions that are taught aren’t always true; And to encounter as though they are try doesn’t take away from truth when it is presented. Unless this writer of hebrews is a liar then we need to throw the whole book of Hebrew away.
Hebrews 3:12-15 KJV
May you never harden your heart, @Taken. God bless to you and your family, and all on this board.
Some of the traditions that are taught aren’t always true; And to encounter as though they are try doesn’t take away from truth when it is presented. Unless this writer of hebrews is a liar then we need to throw the whole book of Hebrew away.
Taken
Well-Known Member
Taken
Well-Known Member
You have not the power to insult me. Your words are accountable to You, not me.
If you are disgusted because I do not agree with you, so what?
It only reflects and applies TO ME, what I say for myself.
It is NOT disrespectful for me to disagree with you.
You appear to NOT understand the DIFFERENCE between “WITH” and “WITH-IN”….what you do or do not believe, what you do or do not understand, has ZERO affect or effect on me.
If you think the Lord God a LIAR, BREAKS His PROMISE and WILL NOT BE with a man For Ever….that has a consequence YOU will be appointed….doesn’t affect me.
If your heart is disturbed because an other has ELECTED to BE with God forever, AND complied with Gods ORDER and WAY for that to become made so….
That is your problem, and has ZERO affect on me.
Michiah-Imla
Well-Known Member
No thanks @Taken. You could have stopped at any time. You have a bit of senior with your encounter, and staff tag. You shouldn’t keep fighting against what is true. If I could put you on ignore I would, cause now your being condescending. It is rude for a staff to respond like this. I apologize about the whole asking if you had autism.
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Thank you Michiah for sharing, I never read that before either. Been awhile!
Taken
Well-Known Member
So what? I NEVER asked you to believe me.
I could care less IF you believe me.
I am fully Content that I accepted the Lord Gods Offering, and He and I have a relationship of Belief and Trust.
Taken
Well-Known Member
LOL….I have a very strong conviction and relationship with the Lord God, and if me being loud about my conviction is bothersome to you, that is your problem.
You trying to pass off your disagreement with my convictions as a delusion, a mental issue, as your disheartened contentment, as being condescending to you….and you want to blame me for your own woes….nope, you own what you think, believe, feel and say.
Since you have not the understanding to put me on IGNORE…in KIND, I will put YOU on IGNORE.
Okay @Taken. All the best to you, in Christ buddy.
Sorry you feel the need to fight currently like such, but will just let it go. I can’t personally put you on ignore with a staff tag, it’s impossible.
See ya later though, you can just stop replying to me, man.
I’m just sharing that people do leave the faith, which could be a devout person of many years something happens and they renounce their former standing.
… it’s the biblical premises that state people are able to depart from the living God which may just be unfathomed to take into heart.
Sorry you feel the need to fight currently like such, but will just let it go. I can’t personally put you on ignore with a staff tag, it’s impossible.
See ya later though, you can just stop replying to me, man.
I’m just sharing that people do leave the faith, which could be a devout person of many years something happens and they renounce their former standing.
… it’s the biblical premises that state people are able to depart from the living God which may just be unfathomed to take into heart.
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Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Incorrect. It is you who are ignoring the caveat necessary for your own doctrine.
OSAS is not true because it does not hold up to the scrutiny of logic. Advocates invariably invoke an ex-Post Facto argument; if someone sins after being saved, they weren't "really" saved to begin with. To deny ongoing sin is to deny the words of Jesus, who told those he saved to "go and sin no more."
Another trick of the advocates is to imbue with mysticism what it means to be saved. Jesus did not save them, he only healed them. Some artificial parsing is needed to rationalize the foolishness. These people where saved but not "born again." So gnosticsm is needed, the adoption of special language of code words. In your case, you invoked a "yabut Jesus was on Earth when he said that" AS IF geography makes one little bit of difference.
Consider 2 Timothy 4:7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. Why is it important that Paul kept the faith? Romans 10:9 If you openly declare that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Do you not recognize the logical condition there?
P1. If you believe God raised Jesus from the dead, you will be saved.
P2. Paul believed this to the end.
C. ?
Imagine P2, invokes Hebrews 10:26 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins.
"Receiving" the knowledge of truth = saved. Jesus sacrifice does not apply to ongoing sinning, once a person knows the truth, aka, is saved. I'm not sure how more explicitly it could be written @Taken.
The Converse of the Above Syllogism
P1. If you don't believe God raised Jesus from the dead - as shown by ongoing sinning - you may not be saved.
P2. Person X showed they do not believe.
C. ?
Taken
Well-Known Member
Correct…I do not search the Scripture LOOKING for @Michiah-Imla words, which have zero baring on my salvation.
Every man has Freewill to hear, learn, believe, agree, take, reject what the Lord God OFFERS mankind.
If you choose to NOT TAKE His offering of Salvation….so what? That has ZERO affect on me choosing to TAKE, HAVE, KEEP (according to HIS WAY), His ONCE and FOREVER Offering of assured Salvation.
It’s IS an OFFERED GIFT…and like ANY Gift, if you refuse to reach out and TAKE the OFFERED Gift…..to bad…you snooze, you lose the opportunity to have HAD that gift.
And the THING IS … Gods Gift of salvation IS Offered to all men, for all men to reach out and TAKE it…..or NOT….and the CAVEAT IS…
ONLY while. a man is BODILY ALIVE is he offered the Gift of Salvation. ONLY while a man is BODILY ALIVE can he AGREE and TAKE the Offered gift of salvation….
And OOPS…men who while BODILY ALIVE, who REJECT the Lord Gods Give of Salvation…
And they BODILY DIE….boo hoo…they forfeit, lose out, on ever receiving a GIFT that was expressly bought and paid for FOR THEM!
Gods Gift of salvation….WAS bought and PAID for with Jesus’ BODY and BLOOD, for EVERY single man ever born…. It is theirs TO TAKE….it is NEVER FROCED ON THEM…
If they don’t take their gift…..oops, boo hoo, they lose their gift, by rejecting their gift.
Not a Secret… It is the Lord Gods’ own words that matter….not yours.
Not a Secret….you suggest your words to appear in scripture for you to believe…..which is irrelevant.
Not a Secret…Gods Word is not in an elementary billeted form.
Look … See… the some 30+ times…”IN” Christ is revealed in Scripture….and see if you can by, through, of Scripture figure what THAT KNOWLEDGE “IN” Christ MEANS…and WHO that term APPLIES TO….cause it IS NOT every man.
Not a Secret…
Michiah-Imla
Well-Known Member
I cited YOUR words as unscriptural.
Why are you using guile to cast a negative light on me?
What happens is that when an idea that goes contrary to a what a person believes they tend to get riled up, and justify their stance in all kinds of ways.
People who are believers, from the heart, and seek out Yahavah and they desire to go by his ways, that is great. That doesn't mean that person can never fall into a bit of doubt, or even consider other things rather than the things of Yahavah in turn being choked out by other things and ways which are not of the LORD. Those who are indebted and desire to continue their relationship with Yahavah, could say I am saved, and I ll never doubt the promises of God, and therefore I am saved forever. While in theory that predication seems logical, it's also deceiving in the fact, that you have to make the choice every single day to bring God into ones life... while today is today, do not harden your hearts...
Some people can become hardened, even if they are faithful and they can depart and turn from the living God, with an unbelieving heart. Why do people desire to ignore some scriptures, for some vain traditionally taught pseudo claim "You can never lose your relationship with Yahavah," You can terminate that relationship by your own choice, and YAhavah will be a God of love and allow you to go that way. That is why there are warnings against falling away, and not become unbeliving.
While some may believe and never become unbelieving again - that doesn't mean other people are not subject to not becoming unbelieving again just because you do not see yourself losing faith, endure to the end and you will be saved... right? That is not once saved always saved, that is just believing and being saved to the kingdom, in hopes of getting to be with Yahavah one day. It's an on going choice daily, to choose and bring YAhavah into ones life.
To be like well I am never going to lose faith, and I m telling you I am saved and always saved - is a bunch VAIN BS... and inconsiderate of others and what they are trying to share and show. That is not love... in fact that is self preservation, to some degree selfish.
I have willing contemplated in my own mind, distancing myself from YAhavah and the Son of God, over a three minute period of thought, but perhaps my experience is not real, or perhaps I was never a Christian just because I had the thought some may say.
Overall when it comes down to the subject title, once saved always saved, people being lied to in and through churches and maligned by churches that have, excuse my language "f" them over, is sad, cause some people do end up leaving the faith, and not every church you go to is accurate with truth some hide the truth away in order to just make you "feel" good. It's not true. It's a daily choice to put Yahavah in your life, from your heart, and he sees that and knows that, and those who do not desire him, he sees that and knows that and continues to call out to them even so.
People who are believers, from the heart, and seek out Yahavah and they desire to go by his ways, that is great. That doesn't mean that person can never fall into a bit of doubt, or even consider other things rather than the things of Yahavah in turn being choked out by other things and ways which are not of the LORD. Those who are indebted and desire to continue their relationship with Yahavah, could say I am saved, and I ll never doubt the promises of God, and therefore I am saved forever. While in theory that predication seems logical, it's also deceiving in the fact, that you have to make the choice every single day to bring God into ones life... while today is today, do not harden your hearts...
Some people can become hardened, even if they are faithful and they can depart and turn from the living God, with an unbelieving heart. Why do people desire to ignore some scriptures, for some vain traditionally taught pseudo claim "You can never lose your relationship with Yahavah," You can terminate that relationship by your own choice, and YAhavah will be a God of love and allow you to go that way. That is why there are warnings against falling away, and not become unbeliving.
While some may believe and never become unbelieving again - that doesn't mean other people are not subject to not becoming unbelieving again just because you do not see yourself losing faith, endure to the end and you will be saved... right? That is not once saved always saved, that is just believing and being saved to the kingdom, in hopes of getting to be with Yahavah one day. It's an on going choice daily, to choose and bring YAhavah into ones life.
To be like well I am never going to lose faith, and I m telling you I am saved and always saved - is a bunch VAIN BS... and inconsiderate of others and what they are trying to share and show. That is not love... in fact that is self preservation, to some degree selfish.
I have willing contemplated in my own mind, distancing myself from YAhavah and the Son of God, over a three minute period of thought, but perhaps my experience is not real, or perhaps I was never a Christian just because I had the thought some may say.
Overall when it comes down to the subject title, once saved always saved, people being lied to in and through churches and maligned by churches that have, excuse my language "f" them over, is sad, cause some people do end up leaving the faith, and not every church you go to is accurate with truth some hide the truth away in order to just make you "feel" good. It's not true. It's a daily choice to put Yahavah in your life, from your heart, and he sees that and knows that, and those who do not desire him, he sees that and knows that and continues to call out to them even so.
Taken
Well-Known Member
No need for me to continue to reading the rest of your comment….
You are proposing Spiritual things needs be held to the scrutiny of LOGIC….??
You have got to be KIDDING or INSANE…
It is LOGICAL there is a Creator God, that can not be SEEN, HEARD, TOUCHED…?
LOL…….uh no, that in itself DEFIES the conclusion of a LOGICAL Carnal Thought and Conclusion!
Belief is about FAITH….not LOGIC !
Belief is about THE Hearts thoughts….not the Carnal Minds logical thoughts!
No wonder you reject eternal salvation, once and forever….you are trying to LOGICALLY with your CARNAL MIND….make a Spiritual Promise, from a Spiritual God, of an INVISIBLE Spiritual Event, make Logical sense to your Carnal Mind…
Perhaps you should review what God thinks of your CARNAL MIND….and it’s logical conclusions….to reject His Spiritual Offering…
Rom 8:
[7] Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Look…You are not a qualified source to speak for others what you say for them, what you neither believe or understand.
IF a man stands before witness declaring he believes….
How do YOU KNOW his word IS TRUE?
You don’t.
What if he is declaring his Belief, with YOUR CONCEPT….that it makes LOGICAL SENCE to THAT mans CARNAL MIND?
How would YOU know if he is or is not expressing his Carnal Minded thought?
You Don’t.
The ONLY one who KNOWS…is God and THAT man.
So, say a man goes to an altar call, stands before a congregations of witnesses and with his mouth Declares his Belief in the Lord God……..Do you “think” he IS SAVED?
The congregation WILL. The Church WILL, and even give him a certificates of membership in that church!
And what if 2 years later, that same man CHANGES his MIND….and proclaims He does NOT Believe in the Lord God…
Was that man SEAVED….and then UNSAVED?
No…that man WAS NEVER SAVED…
How do we KNOW?
BECAUSE that man Testified of his belief…(according to what you think is important….the Logical Carnal Mind….
However what God requires for a VALID Confession of Belief….is a man “HEARTFUL” confession…….not a confession from his logical Carnal Mind.
The man WAS Never saved….and WHY 2 years later, he CAN declare He do not believe.
That is how you KNOW his confession was NOT from his Heart.
Because … Even the Lord God who teaches to test….(verify) all things…..so does God!
God searches the HEART to SEE “IF” a mans confession of belief “IS” true or NOT….before He gifts a man with His precious gift of Salvation!
And oops, it is other men who may or may find out LATER they were duped into believing the man TRULY heartfully Believed….which was NOT so.
So HOW would a man KNOW “IF” another has made A TRUE Heartful Confession of Belief unto God?
They can HEAR the confession…and consider it.
However they will KNOW….by that mans further speech and behavior ……. LIKE WHAT?
A man WHO IS TRULY SAVED…can NEVER speak or be Against the Lord God Almighty.
And THAT ^ is for the SAME REASON of ONCE a man “IS” Saved…He “IS” Saved FOREVER….BECAUSE the Greatest of ALL POWER is ….expressly “IN” that man.
Now IF a man IS Saved…by the very ACT of receiving Gods Gift of Salvation….the Lord Gods Power is IN that man…..DO TELL…Do ANSWER…
HOW the Lord Gods power IN a man FAILS to KEEP that man IN faithfulness unto God?
Have a Scripture expressly related to THAT?
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