Once saved, always saved is a myth.
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It's Scripture . . . and Jesus is right!
John 10:27-29 KJV
27) My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28) And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29) My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
Much love!
You know
People quote that scripture
John 15:16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you.
Spoken to the apostles.
6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you really know me, you will know[b] my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”
8 Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”
9 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves. 12 Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.
22 Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, “But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?”
23 Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them. 24 Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.
25 “All this I have spoken while still with you. 26 But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. 27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.
28 “You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. 29 I have told you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe. 30 I will not say much more to you, for the prince of this world is coming. He has no hold over me, 31 but he comes so that the world may learn that I love the Father and do exactly what my Father has commanded me.
“Come now; let us leave.
John 15
5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.
9 “As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10 If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love. 11 I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I command. 15 I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. 16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you. 17 This is my command: Love each other.
People quote that scripture
John 15:16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you.
Spoken to the apostles.
Jesus Comforts His Disciples
14 “Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God[a]; believe also in me. 2 My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. 4 You know the way to the place where I am going.”Jesus the Way to the Father
5 Thomas said to him, “Lord, we don’t know where you are going, so how can we know the way?”6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you really know me, you will know[b] my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”
8 Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”
9 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves. 12 Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.
Jesus Promises the Holy Spirit
15 “If you love me, keep my commands. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be[c] in you. 18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19 Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20 On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. 21 Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.”22 Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, “But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?”
23 Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them. 24 Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.
25 “All this I have spoken while still with you. 26 But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. 27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.
28 “You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. 29 I have told you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe. 30 I will not say much more to you, for the prince of this world is coming. He has no hold over me, 31 but he comes so that the world may learn that I love the Father and do exactly what my Father has commanded me.
“Come now; let us leave.
John 15
New International Version
The Vine and the Branches
15 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes[a] so that it will be even more fruitful. 3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.
9 “As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10 If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love. 11 I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I command. 15 I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. 16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you. 17 This is my command: Love each other.
The World Hates the Disciples
18 “If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. 19 If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you. 20 Remember what I told you: ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’[b] If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also. If they obeyed my teaching, they will obey yours also. 21 They will treat you this way because of my name, for they do not know the one who sent me. 22 If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin; but now they have no excuse for their sin. 23 Whoever hates me hates my Father as well. 24 If I had not done among them the works no one else did, they would not be guilty of sin. As it is, they have seen, and yet they have hated both me and my Father. 25 But this is to fulfill what is written in their Law: ‘They hated me without reason.’[c]
Good, remain in Christ. That doesn't mean you can't lose your faith or walk away.
Unless your a robot, and you are forced.
People shouldn't be lied too.
I hate that, but alas, people lied about Jesus, and tried to get him in trouble didn't they.
Choice. Get that man out of here, no way we let him rule over us.
They were not "willing"
34 fO Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that gkills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! hHow often would I have igathered jyour children together kas a hen gathers her brood lunder her wings, and myou were not willing! 35 Behold, nyour house is forsaken. And I tell you, you will not see me until you say, o‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!’”
I hate that, but alas, people lied about Jesus, and tried to get him in trouble didn't they.
Choice. Get that man out of here, no way we let him rule over us.
They were not "willing"
Lament over Jerusalem
37 k“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that lkills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have mgathered nyour children together oas a hen gathers her brood punder her wings, and qyou were not willing! 38 See, ryour house is left to you desolate. 39 For I tell you, you will not see me again, until you say, s‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’”34 fO Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that gkills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! hHow often would I have igathered jyour children together kas a hen gathers her brood lunder her wings, and myou were not willing! 35 Behold, nyour house is forsaken. And I tell you, you will not see me until you say, o‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!’”
Jesus Weeps over Jerusalem
41 rAnd when he drew near and saw the city, she wept over it, 42 saying, t“Would that you, even you, had known on this day the things that make for peace! But now uthey are hidden from your eyes. 43 For vthe days will come upon you, when your enemies wwill set up a barricade around you and xsurround you and hem you in on every side 44 yand tear you down to the ground, you and your children within you. And zthey will not leave one stone upon another in you, because you did not know athe time of your bvisitation.”
Your last expression is not a saying at all, they are meaningful words that a genuine saved person understands and experiences all the time. They mature with these words of so-called 'fear' and 'trembling' in salvation and unfortunately poorly translated into English. As the Greek works are translated without the spirit and intended meaning in mind.
Having a deep reverence for their Father God and treating him as the source of all and their salvation in everyday life is central and paramount. They are not words to be feared or dreaded words for despair at all. It does not mean to sweat it out, be on-guard, and beat yourself up if you think you are not 'perfect.' and do not measure up to God's standards as the carnal mind and heart wants you to believe, to maintain control and squelch the invitation or call to SALVATION by God. Most folks meet these words with dread and probably do not really understand these words of Paul, as many even on this site are not genuine believers in Christ.
You seem to lean on a depressing Churchianity view of salvation as I read your thread and posts. Churchianity does not lead to genuine salvation IMO.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
I'm really amazed at this post @APAK and would not have believed it if I did not see it with my own eyes. I even wondered if someone logged in under your account. So many fallacious statements in one post.
Why were the 1st words Jesus spoke to his disciples when he was resurrected "Peace be with you?" Since they were saved, the had the Spirit of Christ and God in them and the fruit of the Spirit includes peace. Jesus said these words because he knew they did not have peace, which can only mean 1 of 2 things:
Appeal to Authority. Yourself. Your own manmade doctrine. Yet, not a Scripture verse in sight. Not even an attempt to reconcile why Paul would suggest dying to self daily.
Ex post facto. If your wife said that to you, she never truly loved you.
Appeal to ignorance. If you cannot understand it, you really have no business promoting it as legitimate, as reasonable, as Scriptural.
Ex post facto. AS IF one loses the capacity think upon being saved.
Strawman. In comparison to you who present no Scripture at all.
False Alternative. Baptism is one and done. Jesus did not tell us to forgive 7 x 70 because the elect sin no more.
Why were the 1st words Jesus spoke to his disciples when he was resurrected "Peace be with you?" Since they were saved, the had the Spirit of Christ and God in them and the fruit of the Spirit includes peace. Jesus said these words because he knew they did not have peace, which can only mean 1 of 2 things:
- They did not have the Spirit of God in them; or
- They were not saved.
That is assurance of the GRACE element established by Christ's sacrifice on the cross affording us the born again status.
U and I must do certain things to receive that accolade only to be awarded us when we are judged after physical death.
That would be the heart, friend.
Why would you think it means all that? It just means - work out your own salvation. Simple. Work it out yourself, by what? Learning about God, and his Son. Getting your priorities straight, (putting God first).
Even as a person who is a slave to sin - when you mature in Christ you know things better than when a person was a babe. It's all about Christ in one. Do you remember me saying - it's a choice from the heart? Of course - where is love without knowledge? Salvation just means deliverance - a deliverance from an old life into a new life in Christ. (Death, burial, resurrection all with the Lord Yeshua).
I don't know that.
I don't even care about Church, but thank you for your opinion, while people can go to church and everything that is all fine and great, but church doesn't bring salvation, and some people who own and play church do not feed the flock rightly. I just believe Jesus, and what he said.
John 8:31-32
To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “ If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”
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What it means is that just like you were born an human, and you cannot change that now, when you've been born from God, His spirit child, you can't change that either.
It's not about what you do or don't do. It's about what God made you into. You can't change you nature. God does that.
He changes those who are reborn, and does not offer to change them back, rather, assures them that this remains.
Much love!
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
The reborn apostles all warned the church to CONTINUE IN JESUS CHRIST to the end .
Just a friendly reminder to all .
Now if any does come out , TIS TRUE they were never TRULY OF US . that be true as well .
HOWEVER , if the reborn apostels WARNED the CHURCH to remain in CHRIST
to continue in HIM , WE OUGHT TO AS WELL . just a friendly reminder from the REBORN ones .
Just a friendly reminder to all .
Now if any does come out , TIS TRUE they were never TRULY OF US . that be true as well .
HOWEVER , if the reborn apostels WARNED the CHURCH to remain in CHRIST
to continue in HIM , WE OUGHT TO AS WELL . just a friendly reminder from the REBORN ones .
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
might also want to read the above statment i left as well . See OSAS has taught truths and ERRORS
and its about high time folks come out of it .
Rather let us teach n preach ALL things JESUS taught , all things the apostels taught .
REMIND with every warning , remind with every promise . CAUSE THE REBORN APOSTELS DID
so TOO should we .
THERE IS A REASON the REBORN reminded . EVERY WORD OF GOD WORKETH GOOD to the hearer ,the believer , the doer of them .
IF we start omitting reminders and warnings , WELL THIS DID NOT THE APOSTELS DO , and i have watched
churches who do it , FALL BIG TIME . THE REBORN LIVE BY THE WORDS OF GOD . LET US LIVE by them too .
Sorry. I disagree with you Marks. You already claimed man doesn't have freewill, and that is okay.
To continue to assume that once saved always saved is true, is to continue to call Jesus Christ a liar.
However you assumed that Jesus is talking about you when you quote verses (which is fine); however it still doesn't make it true.
While people can let Jesus into their heart, and are born again - that doesn't mean that a person can't also allow Jesus Christ to go right back out of the door.
However people who say "they lose their faith" where just never saved anyway, according to the cut-throat people who suggest 'you can't leave faith', well then... the bible is a liar.
So you can say "Once always saved always saved it true, if you want to @marks " It doesn't make it anymore true, there is no bible verse that ever says such a thing... no matter how many times a person may quote Jesus, out of context.
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Sorry amigo, people who are born again; that is great. However, they can leave the faith if they want to.
God doesn't mystically make you stay in the faith.
That is a lie... you must choose "this day whom you will serve."
Once saved always saved is a lie. There is no "truth or error" in it. Best read the bible.
There is no verse that says you can't allow the spirit to move on from you if you choose to.
There is no verse that says "You are born again forever more."
All there is that "Jesus Christ will baptize you with holy spirit and fire" - as long as you believe and remain in him and his teachings.
People can turn away from beliving but people who say "those who believed and turned away" - they aren't really believers anyway.... some judgement call ... as though they themselves are God.
It's all a fabricated lie.
This is true. People can leave the faith... now it may be they believed however they lost interest and instead chased other things....
Just look at Jesus and his parable - After hearing the Parable the Disciples later one when they are alone explains it to them.
Matthew 13
New Living Translation
Parable of the Farmer Scattering Seed
13 Later that same day Jesus left the house and sat beside the lake. 2 A large crowd soon gathered around him, so he got into a boat. Then he sat there and taught as the people stood on the shore. 3 He told many stories in the form of parables, such as this one:“Listen! A farmer went out to plant some seeds.
4 As he scattered them across his field, some seeds fell on a footpath, and the birds came and ate them. 5 Other seeds fell on shallow soil with underlying rock. The seeds sprouted quickly because the soil was shallow.
6 But the plants soon wilted under the hot sun, and since they didn’t have deep roots, they died. 7 Other seeds fell among thorns that grew up and choked out the tender plants. 8 Still other seeds fell on fertile soil, and they produced a crop that was thirty, sixty, and even a hundred times as much as had been planted!
9 Anyone with ears to hear should listen and understand.”
10 His disciples came and asked him, “Why do you use parables when you talk to the people?”
11 He replied, “You are permitted to understand the secrets[a] of the Kingdom of Heaven, but others are not. 12 To those who listen to my teaching, more understanding will be given, and they will have an abundance of knowledge. But for those who are not listening, even what little understanding they have will be taken away from them.
13 That is why I use these parables,
For they look, but they don’t really see.
They hear, but they don’t really listen or understand.
14 This fulfills the prophecy of Isaiah that says,
‘When you hear what I say,
you will not understand.
When you see what I do,
you will not comprehend.
15 For the hearts of these people are hardened,
and their ears cannot hear,
and they have closed their eyes—
so their eyes cannot see,
and their ears cannot hear,
and their hearts cannot understand,
and they cannot turn to me
and let me heal them.’[b]
16 “But blessed are your eyes, because they see; and your ears, because they hear. 17 I tell you the truth, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see, but they didn’t see it. And they longed to hear what you hear, but they didn’t hear it.
18 “Now listen to the explanation of the parable about the farmer planting seeds: 19 The seed that fell on the footpath represents those who hear the message about the Kingdom and don’t understand it. Then the evil one comes and snatches away the seed that was planted in their hearts.
20 The seed on the rocky soil represents those who hear the message and immediately receive it with joy. 21 But since they don’t have deep roots, they don’t last long. They fall away as soon as they have problems or are persecuted for believing God’s word.
22 The seed that fell among the thorns represents those who hear God’s word, but all too quickly the message is crowded out by the worries of this life and the lure of wealth, so no fruit is produced.
23 The seed that fell on good soil represents those who truly hear and understand God’s word and produce a harvest of thirty, sixty, or even a hundred times as much as had been planted!”
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