Once Saved Always Saved

[marks]

before you start ranting

Gotta love it!

 

[marks]

He tells us just eight verses later from the verse you are quoting......

They will forsake me and break the covenant I made with them. And in that day I will become angry with them and forsake them Deuteronomy 31:16-17

And now, before you start ranting "that's old testament!", read this.......

Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” d and again, “The Lord will judge his people.” Hebrews 10:28-30

If we disown him, he will also disown us 2 Timothy 2:12​

So are you saying that even though He promised to NEVER leave me, and NEVER forsake me,

The thing that you want to communicate to me is,

That I shouldn't believe those words to necessarily be true, and that I could act in such fashion the He would break His promise?

Is that what you mean to say?

This is once again deflection, and not a straight reply.

BTW . . . I'm quoting Hebrews . . . not Deuteronomy, and I'm certain you know that, but you are attempting to spin this so you can avoid addressing His promise.

His promise.

His. Promise.

For myself, I'm going to believe God, not you.

For He has promised, I will never leave you, nor forsake you.

Yet you proclaim that He might!

Much love!

 

[marks]

AS IF there is something wrong with one living up to one’s responsibilities.

There's nothing wrong with living up to your responsibilities!

What gave you that idea?

Much love!

 

[Wrangler]

There's nothing wrong with living up to your responsibilities!

What gave you that idea?

Because that is all Ferris and I are saying and are bashed relentlessly for it.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Yes they do not. So that is settled.

Do you agree that when scriptures says that Christ was raised, it means He was made alive?

"Made a live" He resurrected in a body that could eat and drink.

The thing is that it means, from being dead, He was made alive. Now scriptures says that we were made alive together with Christ. That would imply that we were in a sense dead and were made alive, and that together with Christ.

Now, that is said of the elect of God and not of those who are not. That means those who are not of the elect of God in a sense remains dead.

Tong
R2933

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
I can go with that.

Now, do you believe that there are false brethren? If so, do you say that they are the elect of God?

That decision of judgment is above our paygrade.

The question isn’t about judgment. I was just asking if you believe there are false brethren among the Christians. The scriptures speaks of such. Do you believe or you do not?

Tong
R2934

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Did not say that there were not valid texts and texts that made it into the first Bible.
We do know that there were favored texts that did not make it into the Bible.
And we do not know if these texts selected for the Bible ever resided in one place during the biblical era.

They were available in any city. In the church

Yeap there were Christian churches built on top of Pagan temples....or the ruins of Pagan temples.

Which is sad, considering in the book of Acts the church was seen in homes. The temple was seen as the body. Not some expensive building. They also met continuously. Not just on Sunday

If you are talking about the bread and wine ritual...I find no Paganism in it. Christ instituted this and performed it....Christ is not a Pagan. He warned that not performing meant that you did not abide in Him or Him in you....there is no life in you....and he will not raise you on the last day. This ritual seems shocking to some. In deed His own Apostles reacted to it negatively, His disciples no longer walked with Him, and the conversation he was having with the others stopped. He felt this ritual was so important that He was willing to risk His ministry on it.

No. I am talking about the eucharist. Not the lords supper and found in many churches.
Jesus did not institute the eucharist

All one has to do is look to John 6 to see what EVERYONE who ate it would recieve, Then ask themselves why NO ONE who takes the eucharist is assured of anything. (By the way, John 6 is not the lords supper)

I am not sure what you are getting at here. If you keep one Law you have to keep all 613 Mosaic Laws and welcome to the Old Covenant you are a Jew...not a Christian. Are you planning on selling your daughter as a sex slave....because you can according to the Mosaic Law.

You states one could commit a sin and lose salvation. Basically in saying so you are placing people under law. The law required perfection. No one is perfect. Hence NO ONE earns salvation.

The problem with inserting different sins and saying these sins disqualify you is that all sin no matter how small that sin is would disqualify us. Again, As james said, If we just STUMBLE in one sin, we are guilty.

Again not sure of everything you are getting at here. If you are having trouble understanding what good is...we can work on that
If you are having trouble understanding what evil is...we can work on that.
The Bible tell us what is not going to make it to heaven...absolutely clear...I have already given you the location of those scriptures.
In context your average Christian is going to sin. Ask for forgiveness and be forgiven....It is not wrong of Christ to expect us to learn from our mistake...evil...sinful lifestyles is another matter. You cannot repent something you intend to do.

There is no one good but God. I think we can start here.
Evil is the world. It lives to serve self. no matter who it hurts.
Its the righteousness of Christ which saves us, Our deeds are as filthy rags.
If a man thinks he is good. He is in danger

Again your biblical understanding is back to all matter of evil goes to heaven...How is that a reward for good people. All in all the OSAS crowd views good people as the enemy...if you are good your are self-righteous. And then parts of the Bible are the legalist sections.

No evil will go to heaven.

Only those washed in the blood

Apart from Grace, You, Me and everyone who ever lived are evil.

Your biblical understanding of what sin is is flawed. As well as what righteousness is. There are non righteous no not one. All have sinned and fall short. You and I fall in that category. Hence we are evil.

Why would they do all that? When all they have to do is quote the Bible to shoot your beliefs down.

People have tried that for years. Just because one quotes a verse does not mean they interpret it correctly.

I mean look here. I spoke of jewish legalistic people who attempted to add works to the gospel. who paul condemned. And Licentious people. Whom Jude said their condemnation was forordained. And your trying to come at me like I said it.

Comprehension is an area you need to have if you want me to hear you,

LOL, Just ah, No! He was referring to the ministry of death engraved on stones...the Mosaic Law. Explaining Christians are not of the Law...and if you look to the Law for justification you are severed from Christ and have fallen from Grace. You wouldn't have any Ten Commandments posted anywhere, would ya? LOL

Um, No. Actually he spoke of circumcision also in Gal 3. That was not a law written on stone.

Your to narrow minded. You think you have all the answers. back away a bit and listen to what is being said not what you want to hear

 

[Tong2020]

Because that is all Ferris and I are saying and are bashed relentlessly for it.

I once asked Ferris why he keep believing. I would like to ask that question to you as well.

Tong
R2935

 

[marks]

For if forgiveness of sins is absolute, then is done and no condition future to that will change it.

He uses tautalogies. Empty, meaningless statements. Self evident sayings disguised to sound erudite.

"Forgiveness is absolute! Except when it's not!".

As if God is storing up the sins of His children ready to dump them back on IF . . .

But again, we mustn't be so foolish to think that we have some 'power' of ourselves to "keep ourselves believing". As IF God were a man that He should lie!

Much love!

 

[Grailhunter]

The thing is that it means, from being dead, He was made alive.

You mean resuscitated?

He was made alive.

The body that Christ came back with was not exactly the same.

Now scriptures says that we were made alive together with Christ. That would imply that we were in a sense dead and were made alive, and that together with Christ.

Yes alive and dead. Religious symbology ... theological terms...the exactness of which, can we comprehend? The exactness of which that if we take it further than religious symbiology can we accurately define it...if the Apostle did not define it. Loosely we can say that spiritual life...heaven can only come from our relationship with Christ. And by the way remember that Christ said if you do not perform the bread and wine ritual that there is no life in you...Things change if you do not.

 

[marks]

Perhaps it would be helpful to list here what scriptures says of the genuine Christian.

1. They were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, Jesus Christ.
2. They have been justified by faith, having been justified by the blood of Christ Jesus.
3. The love of God has been poured out in their hearts.
4. They have died to sin.
5. They are not under law but under grace.
6. They have been set free from sin.
7. They have been delivered from the law.
8. They are in Christ Jesus and in the Spirit.
9. They have the Holy Spirit dwelling in them.
10. They have the Spirit of Christ in them.
11. They are children of God, having received the Spirit of adoption, heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ.
12. They were predestined to be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ.
13. They shall not be separated from the love of Christ.
14. They are not their own as they were bought at a price. They are Christ’s. They are God’s.
15. They were washed, were sanctified, were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of God.
16. Their bodies are members of Christ. Together they are one body, the body of Christ, and members individually.
17. Their body is the temple of the Holy Spirit.
18. They are a new creation in Christ.
19. They are children of promise.
20. They were chosen by God in Christ before the foundation of the world.
21. They were predestined to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to God.
22. They have in Christ obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of God.
23. They were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of their inheritance.
24. They were made alive together with Christ, raised up together, and made to sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus.
25. They have been saved by grace through faith.
26. They are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand to walk in.
27. God works in them both to will and to do for His good pleasure.
28. Their citizenship is in heaven, not in this world.
29. They have been delivered by the Father from the power of darkness and were conveyed into the kingdom of the Son, Jesus Christ.
30. They were, in Christ, circumcised with the circumcision made without hands.
31. They have been forgiven of all trespasses.
32. They are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ.

33. They were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Now, consider all of those truth about the genuine Christian, them who were born of God and see what becomes of the issues that confront the Christians today, such as the issue under this thread.

Tong
R2910

Exceedingly Great and Precious Promises!!!

Much love!

 

[marks]

Find the phrase genuine Christian in the Bible

Find the word "Bible" in the Bible.

But Peter speaks of the genuineness of your faith being proven by testing.

Much love!

 

[Wrangler]

I once asked Ferris why he keep believing. I would like to ask that question to you as well.

The same reason to keep believing anything - Evidence. See Evidence To Be Seen.


Oh, put God to the test and see how kind he is! See for yourself the way his mercies shower down on all who trust in him.
Psalm 34:8

 

[marks]

for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,...agreed

No. If I lived in the biblical era...maybe. As a Christian in modern times....the Law has nothing to do with me. I have never lived under the Law...again I am not a Jew and never have been.

I'd agree that we as gentiles have never been under the Mosaic Law, we are still under the law of our conscience, the law that was written on our hearts, our internal knowledge of right and wrong. And that we will be judged according to that, unless we are forgiven in Christ.

Much love!

 

[marks]

I believe in it. Just not in Calvin's definition of those things. I believe what the Bible says those things are.

Then you will believe this . . .

Romans 8:29 KJV
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Will God's predestination stand? Does it work?

Much love!

 

[Wrangler]

But anyway, just for fun....

1. As you know, I believe you lose the forgiveness of sin you have while a believer if you go back to unbelief. Christ's completed, but ongoing ministry of intercession (Hebrews 7:25) only applies to the person who is trusting in it, not the person who doesn't trust in it.

2. No, not taken back when one sins. Taken back when one goes back to unbelief. All sins are covered for the believer, not for the unbeliever.

3. Forgiveness of sin is absolute, as long as the gospel message remains in your heart.

For if forgiveness of sins is absolute, then is done and no condition future to that will change it.

"Forgiveness is absolute! Except when it's not!".

I trust no further analysis is necessary but to show how Tong and marks twist what Ferris has said. Such Appeals to Strawman shows the weakness of your position.

The analogy I use is that we are all drowning. Jesus is the Savior and throws us a life preserver and we can have total trust and faith in him always providing this means of our survival. However, the burden is always on us to actually receive the life preserver. And it is not merely the initial holding on to the life preserver that matters. What matters is constantly holding onto the gift of salvation. Otherwise, we risk our survival with every release of the gift, e.g., turning our back on him.

Supposing otherwise is an unrealistic assessment of our predicament.

 

[marks]

Indirectly OSAS by default can be connected to Calvinism only because of the belief that God is a puppet master and in effect does not allowing free-will and determined who was going to heaven and hell before the creation of the world. Which defines God with satanic characteristics.

This has nothing to do with why I myself understand rebirth to be forever.

It's simple from examining the Bible itself, and determining to believe what it says.

Much love!

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
The thing is that it means, from being dead, He was made alive.

You mean resuscitated

Scriptures said He was made alive. If you can’t understand that or you just like to use another term? Scriptures said, He was put to death, but He was made alive.

The body that Christ came back with was not exactly the same.

So?

Tong2020 said: ↑
Now scriptures says that we were made alive together with Christ. That would imply that we were in a sense dead and were made alive, and that together with Christ.

Yes alive and dead. Religious symbology ... theological terms...the exactness of which, can we comprehend? The exactness of which that if we take it further than religious symbiology can we accurately define it...if the Apostle did not define it. Loosely we can say that spiritual life...heaven can only come from our relationship with Christ. And by the way remember that Christ said if you do not perform the bread and wine ritual that there is no life in you...Things change if you do not.

If that is your view, then there is nothing to discuss with you about that.

And that is just one on the list I posted. I wonder how many more in that list you have the same view.

Tong
R2936

 

[marks]

I am really not so sure if you really like to discuss. I dropped the term that you have an issue with and use a term found in scriptures so we can skip that issue and move on.

<<<I know that the scriptures use the word elect...and I believe that applies to all Christians. >>>

Well you also know that the scriptures used the word genuine and the word Christian.

Do you believe that Christians refer to themselves as brethren? Do you believe that there are false brethren? Now, do you believe that the false brethren are elect of God?

Tong
R2928

I'm not sure why this is a thing?

When we say "Christian", which word does appear in the Bible, don't we mean to use the word seriously? That is, if we say, Christian, we're talking about someone that IS one, right?

So "genuine" would be implied.

Saying "genuine" Christian, what's the issue?

Either someone is, or they are not, right?

Much love!

 

[Grailhunter]

The question isn’t about judgment. I was just asking if you believe there are false brethren among the Christians. The scriptures speaks of such. Do you believe or you do not?

Tong
R2934

My answer was accurate.
The Bibles talks about those that believed incorrectly.
The Bible talks about addressing those that continue to sin.
The old timers use to speak of the luke-warm Christians.
Those that believe in new heresies like Calvinism and OSAS can be looked at as false brethren.
I can say they preach the doctrines of devils...but I cannot say they are not Christians.
Above my paygrade. So my answer was accurate.

1st John 4:1
Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

1st Timothy 1:3
Just as I urged you upon my departure for Macedonia, to remain on at Ephesus so that you would instruct certain people not to teach strange doctrines,

John 8:44
You are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father you will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and stayed not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.