Once Saved Always Saved

[Tong2020]

Depend how u understand sealed with the Holy Spirit......

@Ferris Bueller

2 Corinthians 1:22 who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

Ephesians 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

1 Corinthians 3:16 Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?

Tong
R3042

 

[Tong2020]

God elects those who have faith. And surely that is how one prepares themselves for the return of Christ.

God sure elects. But if what you are saying is that God’s election is based on a qualifier, as only those who have faith in Him, I don’t find scriptures saying that. Perhaps you can tell us the reference scriptures.

Tong
R3943

 

[Amazed@grace]

"EHHH! Sorry, Hans, wrong guess!"

1) Paul debunks eternal security when he declares believers who have heard the Gospel and received the Spirit by faith (Galatians 3:1-5) fell away from the faith (Galatians 1:6, 5:4).

2) Seeking justification by "works of Law" refers not to "righteous works" but to serving God by means of Torah, or being "under Law" (Galatians 4:21), as that is the constant refrain throughout the entire Epistle (Gal 2, Gal 3, Gal 4, Gal 5, Gal 6 all specifically address this). Notice Paul's conclusion is not "justification is not by works of the Law, instead just believe" but "justification is not by works of the Law, instead serve one another through love" (Galatians 5:6, 13-14). And Galatians 3 says "Having begun by the Spirit are you now being perfected by the flesh?" In other words, Paul's argument is that we progress to spiritual maturity by means of grace and faith, not by submitting ourselves to Torah. That is Paul's point, NOT "just believe in Jesus and you're saved".

3) "The faith of Jesus" is actually "the faithfulness of Jesus"--it's the same Greek word, but think about how ridiculous it would be to say that we are saved by Jesus believing. Jesus believed that Jesus raised from the dead? LOL No, WE believed--yes, by God's grace, but still.

4) Stop abusing the Scripture. "Works of the Law" does not refer to "righteous works" it refers to "submitting to Torah" rather than "submitting to Grace" (Ro 6:14). "Under" means "under the jurisdiction of", and we are "not under Law" but we ARE "under Grace"--we are under the jurisdiction and authority of the Spirit of Grace as the means of service to God. "I will write my laws in their minds and hearts".

Hans? It's the same refrain under a new name . And posting almost exclusively on this thread after having "just arrived".

You were wrong before and still.
Why would anyone want to argue they're not truly secure in Christ?
Or, that eternal salvation is a misnomer.

Enjoy.

 

[GracePeace]

Hans? It's the same refrain under a new name . And posting almost exclusively on this thread after having "just arrived".

You were wrong before and still.
Why would anyone want to argue they're not truly secure in Christ?
Or, that eternal salvation is a misnomer.

Enjoy.

1) "Hans" : it was just a quote from a movie LOL

2) I haven't been here before.

3) My efforts are to believe the Bible, not any preacher--that's why I don't believe in "eternal security".

 

[Tong2020]

And I see no reason why the Holy Spirit can't come and go from the temple of our bodies as he did in the earthly temple of Moses when they had profaned it beyond remedy (Ezekiel 10:1-19).

1 Corinthians 3:16 Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?

This was not the case in the OT period.

In your idea of the Holy Spirit as coming and going from in whom He dwells, when does He come and when does He go?

And when He goes from the Christian, what do you say becomes of the Christian?

Tong
R3044

 

[GracePeace]

1 Corinthians 3:16 Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?

This was not the case in the OT period.

In your idea of the Holy Spirit as coming and going from in whom He dwells, when does He come and when does He go?

And when He goes from the Christian, what do you say becomes of the Christian?

Tong
R3044

1 Corinthians 10
6Now these things took place as examples for us...
11Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come.

These things that happened to them under the OT correspond to partakers of the NT.

1 Thessalonians 4:8
Therefore whoever disregards this, disregards not man but God, who gives his Holy Spirit to you.

Why does Paul mention "Who gives His Holy Spirit to you"? Because if we disregard God, He can remove His Spirit from us.

 

[Tong2020]

marks said: ↑
Why would you not go to the New Testament passages to define the New Testament (Greek) concepts?

There are many places which tell us about God's sealing of the NT Christian. You ignore them in favor of OT passages written about something else.

Why?

See, the big failure of the church is how they have been separated from old testament teachings. It's amazing how much of what the New Testament writers wrote hinges on and is based on their old testament scriptural knowledge. Sometime in the early 3rd century, I think it was, the church outlawed the law. Now, all these centuries later we have a church that can't understand many things properly because they simply don't have much knowledge of the old testament scriptures.

The Christian should not forget that the OT was but a shadow of the realities that are in Christ and in the new covenant.

Should the shadow give light to the reality? It is the other way around. So, for me, making the OT to shed light on the things in the NT is a mistake. Jesus Christ is the light.

So I agree with @marks point there.

Tong
R3045

 

[GracePeace]

The Christian should not forget that the OT was but a shadow of the realities that are in Christ and in the new covenant.

Should the shadow give light to the reality? It is the other way around. So, for me, making the OT to shed light on the things in the NT is a mistake. Jesus Christ is the light.

So I agree with @marks point there.

Tong
R3045

So Paul was mistaken :

1 Corinthians 9
8Do I say these things on human authority? Does not the Law say the same? 9For it is written in the Law of Moses, “You shall not muzzle an ox when it treads out the grain.” Is it for oxen that God is concerned? 10Does he not certainly speak for our sake? It was written for our sake, because the plowman should plow in hope and the thresher thresh in hope of sharing in the crop. 11If we have sown spiritual things among you, is it too much if we reap material things from you? 12If others share this rightful claim on you, do not we even more?
Nevertheless, we have not made use of this right, but we endure anything rather than put an obstacle in the way of the gospel of Christ. 13Do you not know that those who are employed in the temple service get their food from the temple, and those who serve at the altar share in the sacrificial offerings? 14In the same way, the Lord commanded that those who proclaim the gospel should get their living by the gospel.

1 Corinthians 10
6Now these things took place as examples for us...
11Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come.

2 Timothy 3
14But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it 15and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

 

[Tong2020]

marks said: ↑
I'm saying, look at the NT teachings for your first understanding of NT doctrines.

THEN look at that in the light of OT teaching! You'll be amazed at how wrong the church is today. Amazed!

Remember, the OT was but a shadow. Jesus is the light. If there is anywhere that one looks at as light, and that gives light to anything, it is Jesus Christ.

You’ll be more than amazed than you are now who looks at things concerning the NT and the Christian in the light of the OT or in the light of the shadows.

Tong
R3046

 

[GracePeace]

Remember, the OT was but a shadow. Jesus is the light. If there is anywhere that one looks at as light, and that gives light to anything, it is Jesus Christ.

You’ll be more than amazed than you are now who looks at things concerning the NT and the Christian in the light of the OT or in the light of the shadows.

Tong
R3046

I guess your "flowery" words are supposed to mean something and help someone?

The OT is a "type" and "shadow" which informs us as to how the NT works--fulfilling precisely the function which you deny it does. The OT was inspired by the Spirit of God, written to Christians, and illuminates the NT.

 

[Tong2020]

Even when you literally show an Osaser there is another way to look at their Osas scriptures they still can't see it. It's quite scary. It reminds me of talking to Jehovah's Witnesses, or Mormons. And you can literally hold a Bible open to them and show them words that say exactly the opposite of what they believe and they will look up at you and still believe what they do, just as if they'd never seen the actual words written in the Bible that you showed them. It's scary!

What is scary is when one begins to shift from the salvation of God of people by His work to one’s effort and working. It perverts the gospel of grace into becoming mixed up with some sort of deserving to be saved because he does this and that. It sort of veils the truth that after one is saved, what obedience and good he does thereafter, he does not for salvation, but for the glory of Him who saved Him.

It’s scary in that, they begin to live a life according to such perverted truth, which prevents them of the blessed life that they should be experiencing otherwise, even of having to save up treasures in heaven that they would have and enjoy for not a time but for all time.

@marks

Tong
R3047

 

[GracePeace]

What is scary is when one begins to shift from the salvation of God of people by His work to one’s effort and working. It perverts the gospel of grace into becoming mixed up with some sort of deserving to be saved because he does this and that. It sort of veils the truth that after one is saved, what obedience and good he does thereafter, he does not for salvation, but for the glory of Him who saved Him.

It’s scary in that, they begin to live a life according to such perverted truth, which prevents them of the blessed life that they should be experiencing otherwise, even of having to save up treasures in heaven that they would have and enjoy for not a time but for all time.

@marks

Tong
R3047

You seem to think "salvation" is the "last word"--it's not. According to Apostolic doctrine (1 Corinthians 10), the Jews were "saved" from slavery in Egypt, and they were "baptized" into Moses, but they still fell under God's wrath in the wilderness and never inherited the Promise (the land of Canaan)--and Paul teaches that these things correspond to Christians' lives before God now (that though we have been "saved" and "baptized", we have yet to inherit the Promise and we must serve God in righteousness while we are, so to speak, "in the wilderness", or else we will not inherit the Promise).

Eternal life is only going to be repaid doers of good Romans 2:6-16 and Galatians 6:6-10 and John 5:29.

Now, you can (emptily) assert you have been "saved", and that you don't need to do good works, but that will be a very strange "salvation" when you won't be inheriting eternal life.

 

[Tong2020]

There is a difference. There is the indwelling Spirit in the beleiver, and then there is the baptism of power of the Holy Spirit that comes from the outside. I've experienced it, and even literally SEEN it for myself. Most in the church today know all about the head knowledge of having the Holy Spirit in them in salvation. But very, very few in the church know about the 'falling' of the Holy Spirit in power. They are quite different. But, if just the falling of the Spirit makes you a 'different', new person, how much more the Spirit within a man who never leaves? Think about it. The point is, the agent of change in a person that makes them 'new' is the presence of the Holy Spirit. A Spirit that can just as easily depart from a person's body as he came.

The problem is, most people in the church today think about the born again experience as a new child being brought into the world. No. What it is like is when God breathed breath into Adam and he became a living soul. Or like when a baby takes his first breath and he becomes a living soul, new in existence. In the same way God breathes a NEW spirit into our bodies and so we are 'born' that way. But when you talk to Christians they seem to think a new baby gets birthed into existence when you get born again. It's really quite silly. No. Born again means being born fresh and anew. A new Spirit is inside of you that makes you 'different'. The same you, just different now.

It comes to me now, that “born again” seems to be taken out of what it really is, that is, “born from above”, by many Christians. And perhaps those who went about teaching it took it the same way so that those who have heard their teaching about it take it the same way they did.

Being born from above is not of the will of man but of God. One have to ponder on that truth about the matter of being “born from above”, which most, if not all Christians, is what is known as being “born again”.

Tong
R3048

 

[Tong2020]

Well some of what I might say is head knowledge ....

And I may even be wrong
But what It means to be born from above..is real life......

But I'm a bit confused
When one is born again/from above are they at the same time regenerated renewed and justified?
Another words does new life make you automatically forgiven........for I know one is forgived of past sins......and if they fall short dont the need to be justified b4 God again?

Eph. 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,

What does that truth tell you?

Eph. 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

What does that truth tell you? When do you say the Christian, him who was born from above, was made alive together with Christ and raised up together with Christ and made him sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus?

So how does that truth now come to you?

Some, of not many seems to suggest that, the truth in those passages aren’t ultimates or absolutes or final. They believe that they could change that, thinking that the true Christian can, if he wills, and by the power of his will, reject Jesus Christ.

Tong
R3049

 

[Tong2020]

@GracePeace

Eph. 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,

What does that truth tell you?

Eph. 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

What does that truth tell you? When do you say the Christian, him who was born from above, was made alive together with Christ and raised up together with Christ and made him sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus?

So how does that truth now come to you?

Some, if not many, seems to suggest that, the truth in those passages aren’t ultimates or absolutes or final. They believe that they could change that, thinking that the true Christian can, if he wills, and by the power of his will, reject Jesus Christ.

Tong
R3050

 

[GracePeace]

@grace

Eph. 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,

What does that truth tell you?

Eph. 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

What does that truth tell you? When do you say the Christian, him who was born from above, was made alive together with Christ and raised up together with Christ and made him sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus?

So how does that truth now come to you?

Some, if not many, seems to suggest that, the truth in those passages aren’t ultimates or absolutes or final. They believe that they could change that, thinking that the true Christian can, if he wills, and by the power of his will, reject Jesus Christ.

Tong
R3050

1) I have not personally asked God very much about that verse, but I do admit that if I had not been faced with seemingly impossible-to-reconcile verses already so many times, and been helped by God, I would falter at it because it really seems to teach that we were picked for salvation before the foundation of the world, and the conclusion would be a Calvinistic/Monergistic one indeed. I can freely admit that. The problem is that I already know the Bible, and the Bible's unanimous teaching is contrary to that conclusion--the end result is that I get excited to learn a satisfactory explanation for such verses. I have had many other questions I've spent my time asking God about, but of late I have begun to ask God about this verse. I will let you know when God makes it clear to me, though I have begun to have an idea about its meaning already.

2) Yes, we are seated in heavenly places--yet, "But the path of the righteous is like the light of dawn, which shines brighter and brighter until full day." We have the spirit of adoption, but not the actual physical adoption, the redemption of the body :
Romans 8
23Not only that, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24For in this hope we were saved; but hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he can already see? 25But if we hope for what we do not yet see, we wait for it patiently.

Under your way of viewing things, it would seem we had NOTHING to wait patiently for. That is why your view is sub-Biblical.

So, in the same way, even though we are spiritually seated with Him in heavenly places, it is only those who walk in that reality who will ultimately inherit that physically--the rest (Christians, men who have been "seated with Christ in heavenly places", but who do not follow the Spirit, who do not seek those things which are above where their lives are hidden in Christ) will be blotted out of the book of life because they have sinned against God (Exodus 32:32-33 ; Revelation 3:4-5).

 

[Tong2020]

Samson did. Jesus also warns the Churches that if they don't repent He will remove the Lampstand which is God's Spirit. That's in Revelation 2 and 3. This is why those who depart from the faith (eg, some of the Galatians) are told "You are severed from Christ". We're they PHYSICALLY attached to Christ or SPIRITUALLY? "Whoever is one with the Lord is one Spirit with Him"--so those who are severed from Him are spiritually no longer with Him. They're fallen from the Spirit of Grace.

Is Samson’s case a sealing as the sealing of the Christians? Was Samson indwelled by the Holy Spirit?

Tong
R3051

 

[GracePeace]

Is Samson’s case a sealing as the sealing of the Christians? Was Samson indwelled by the Holy Spirit?

Tong
R3051

1) Do those things which happened to them have bearing on Christians?

1 Corinthians 10
6Now these things took place as examples for us... 11Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come.

2) You didn't even try to address my other points I raised.

 

[Corlove13]

Show me a verse that says..

1) Jesus can leave you, after you become "one with God".

2.) that you can be unborn again.


Give that a shot, fb.

And as you are on your way to finding out that you have been so mislead by your teacher(s), ....... notice the NT verses that state that you "will never perish" and that you can't be separated from God or Christ.

Just keep ignoring all those verses, same as your commentaries that deceive, ignored them also.

Here is my stance/and understanding
If We were given the Spirit we should walk in it.
If we say we were given the Spirit and do not walk in it can you ever say you know you have life or overcome the world. The key is we can overcome the word if we through the Spirit Mortify the deeds of the flesh.........for the result "you shall live" So say you have the Spirit and you are seal with it for/until the day of redemption and you still remain how you were when you first received it........My thought is God is Holy......would not heaven be Hell for someone who has the opportunity to purify themselves by the word and does not.


In my thought...and I am not dogmatic...about this... Is we are here for a reason....rather as some say a training ground for reigning.
I believe that "it is life" real existence, real purpose that matters. For That is a reason He came....that we have life and have it to its fullest.........therefore if we love him we keep His command[this is the flow] and the father and son comes in to make their home......
I see this as a journey of continuing in the teachings.....rather restoration of the soul, or reoccurring refreshment.....but I believe they are somehow our reward......

 

[Corlove13]

"Tong2020, post: 1010186, member: 8685"Eph. 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,

What does that truth tell you?
It tells me just as Abraham was chosen to walk before Him blameless that they were chosen IN the same light.
He said to Abe, walk before Him blameless and He would make a covenant with Him.
And I believe those who do such enter into that covenant.

Eph. 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

What does that truth tell you?
It tells me those people were born from above..Yet is does not say what it takes to remain or To know.

When do you say the Christian, him who was born from above, was made alive together with Christ and raised up together with Christ and made him sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus? You must asked God why He quickened them when they were dead.


So how does that truth now come to you?
Same way it came before you quoted scriptures.
Not sure what you thought I should see that I did not see before

Some, of not many seems to suggest that, the truth in those passages aren’t ultimates or absolutes or final. They believe that they could change that, thinking that the true Christian can, if he wills, and by the power of his will, reject Jesus Christ.
The question is why would He unless He never came to know just what He had in Christ....
Liken to what the writer says.....I write these things so that you may know you have life.
If you never know because you do not continue in His Love....then what does scripture say?

Roman's 11:22
Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.


Tong
R3049