Once Saved Always Saved

[GracePeace]

Show me a verse that says..

1) Jesus can leave you, after you become "one with God".

2.) that you can be unborn again.

1 Corinthians 10
1For I do not want you to be unaware, brothers,a that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, 2and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 3and all ate the same spiritual food, 4and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from the spiritual Rock that followed them, and the Rock was Christ. 5Nevertheless, with most of them God was not pleased, for they were overthrownb in the wilderness.
6Now these things took place as examples for us, that we might not desire evil as they did. 7Do not be idolaters as some of them were; as it is written, “The people sat down to eat and drink and rose up to play.” 8We must not indulge in sexual immorality as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell in a single day. 9We must not put Christc to the test, as some of them did and were destroyed by serpents, 10nor grumble, as some of them did and were destroyed by the Destroyer. 11Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come.

2 Timothy 3
15and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

Deuteronomy 32:5
They have dealt corruptly with him; they are no longer his children because they are blemished; they are a crooked and twisted generation.

Hosea 1
9And the Lord said, “Call his name Not My People,b for you are not my people, and I am not your God.”c
10d Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be like the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured or numbered. And in the place where it was said to them, “You are not my people,” it shall be said to them, “Childrene of the living God.”

 

[Behold]

1 Corinthians 10
1For I do not want you to be unaware, brothers,a that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, 2and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 3and all ate the same spiritual food, 4and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from the spiritual Rock that followed them, and the Rock was Christ. 5Nevertheless, with most of them God was not pleased, for they were overthrownb in the wilderness.
6Now these things took place as examples for us, that we might not desire evil as they did. 7Do not be idolaters as some of them were; as it is written, “The people sat down to eat and drink and rose up to play.” 8We must not indulge in sexual immorality as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell in a single day. 9We must not put Christc to the test, as some of them did and were destroyed by serpents, 10nor grumble, as some of them did and were destroyed by the Destroyer. 11Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come.

2 Timothy 3
15and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

Deuteronomy 32:5
They have dealt corruptly with him; they are no longer his children because they are blemished; they are a crooked and twisted generation.

Hosea 1
9And the Lord said, “Call his name Not My People,b for you are not my people, and I am not your God.”c
10d Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be like the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured or numbered. And in the place where it was said to them, “You are not my people,” it shall be said to them, “Childrene of the living God.”

You posted verses that have nothing to do with born again Christians, except for 2nd Timothy, and that verse has nothing to do with losing salvation.

 

[GracePeace]

You posted verses that have nothing to do with born again Christians, except for 2nd Timothy, and that verse has nothing to do with losing salvation.

Actually :
1) 1 Co 10 teaches what happened to the Jews directly corresponds to Christians so yes it is Eminently Relevant.
2) 2 Ti 3 teaches the OT teaches us about Christianity--hence Paul's constant refrain, "as it is written".
3) Dt 32 shows that children of God can "unbecome" children of God.
4) Hos 1 shows that God's people are God's children and that those who were formerly His People and children were rejected as such (though they would later become His children again).

 

[Behold]

Only in the way Jesus meant that....

“Your faith has saved you; go in peace.” Luke 7:50​

Faith is just the conduit through which a person receives the efficacy of the blood.

...we have gained access by faith into this grace... Romans 5:2

...it is by grace you have been saved, through faith... Ephesians 2:8​

If you close the conduit of faith through which the completed but ongoing efficacious ministry of Christ's blood is applied to you (Hebrews 7:25), you lose that efficacy.

As for you, see that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. And this is what he promised us—eternal life. 1 John 2:24-25
​

.

You can't stop being born, ferris bueller


You just post random verses, disconnected.
And when you do find a verse that is related to Salvation, you misapply it.

You posted

Luke 7:50. "faith has saved you".....

But not exactly.. And why? Because if you read the preceeding verses, you read that her sins were forgiven.

So, who did that?
= JESUS.
Jesus forgave her, as only He has the power to forgive sin.
Faith didn't forgive her.....Jesus did.
Understand?

FAith is not the forgiver, ferris.

Next...

Eph. 2:8
"Save by GRACE"................ through faith........It does not say that by Faith you are saved, by Grace.
That's important that you understand.
So, we are "saved by GRACE"........ there is the Salvation.........BY GRACE.
= By God's GRACE, we are SAVED.
And how? God accepts our Faith to SAVE US. = "justified by FAITH>...but SAVED SAVED SAVED by GRACE.

"Grace" is "The gift of Salvation" and "the Gift of Righteousness".

Next.

1 Jn 2.

And what is it that stays in us?

Jesus, God, and the Holy Spirit.
They can't leave, because we are "ONE with God",... Spiritually.
Jesus told YOU that "no man can take the born again, out of Jesus's HAND".
And that means the person themselves, as well.
Understand yet?

Salvation = Born again INTO GOD's Spirit, by God's Holy Spirit.
This REMAINS, not because of faith, but because of BIRTH. = "born again".

 

[GracePeace]

You can't stop being born, ferris bueller


You just post random verses, disconnected.
And when you do find a verse that is related to Salvation, you misapply it.

You posted

Luke 7:50. "faith has saved you".....

But not exactly.. And why? Because if you read the preceeding verses, you read that her sins were forgiven.

So, who did that?
= JESUS.
Jesus forgave her, as only He has the power to forgive sin.
Faith didn't forgive her.....Jesus did.
Understand?

FAith is not the forgiver, ferris.

Next...

Eph. 2:8
"Save by GRACE"................ through faith........It does not say that by Faith you are saved, by Grace.
That's important that you understand.
So, we are "saved by GRACE"........ there is the Salvation.........BY GRACE.
= By God's GRACE, we are SAVED.
And how? God accepts our Faith to SAVE US. = "justified by FAITH>...but SAVED SAVED SAVED by GRACE.

Nest

1 Jn 2.

And what is it that stays in us?

Jesus, God, and the Holy Spirit.
They can't leave, because we are "ONE with God",... Spiritually.
= Born again INTO GOD's Spirit, by God's Holy Spirit.
This REMAINS, not because of faith, but because of BIRTH. = "born again".

1) God, in Deuteronomy 32:5, refutes your carnal reasoning--God's children can "unbecome" God's children. You cannot just come into Scripture and define Scripture by your carnal reasoning, you must let Scripture define itself as "My ways are higher than your ways".

2) "Salvation" isn't final--the Jews were "saved" out of Egyptian bondage (corresponding to our being saved out of "slavery" to sin), but afterward fell under God's wrath, because of their sinful behavior, and they never inherited the Promise. Paul says this corresponds to our situation today--saved, baptized, but we have not yet inherited the Promise (eternal life--eternal life is a harvest reaped by doers of good in due season Galatians 6:6-10, it is awarded the doers of the Law when they are judged at the final judgment Romans 2:6-16), and we may disqualify ourselves for inheriting that Promise, just as Esau sold his birth right.

 

[Behold]

Actually :
1) 1 Co 10 teaches what happened to the Jews directly corresponds to Christians so yes it is Eminently Relevant.
2) 2 Ti 3 teaches the OT teaches us about Christianity--hence Paul's constant refrain, "as it is written".
3) Dt 32 shows that children of God can "unbecome" children of God.
4) Hos 1 shows that God's people are God's children and that those who were formerly His People and children were rejected as such (though they would later become His children again).

Its true that everything created by God, is God's creation, but not every person is a born again Child of God.
So, born again, is all that is relevant when discussing SALVATION, as the Blood Atonement.

So, when you misuse an old testament verse, to try to deny New Testament Atonement that came by Jesus's Blood, you have left anything that has to do with the NT.
You can't undo the NT by trying to twist an OT verse., as you are attempting.

Listen, there is no CROSS in the Old Testament.
Jesus has not died for anyone's sin, in the Old Testament.
The NT, is the NEW Covenant, that has REPLACED the OLD TESTAMENT.
This is why we have a NEW Testament, GracePeace.

 

[Behold]

1) God, in Deuteronomy 32:5, refutes your carnal reasoning--

God does not refute the New Covenant, with the Old Testament.

You should give that up.
Its a bad idea to try to refute the NT by twisting OT verses.
Bad idea, GracePeace.

 

[GracePeace]

Its true that everything created by God, is God's creation, but not every person is a born again Child of God.
So, born again, is all that is relevant when discussing SALVATION, as the Blood Atonement.

So, when you misuse an old testament verse, to try to deny New Testament Atonement that came by Jesus's Blood, you have left anything that has to do with the NT.
You can't undo the NT by trying to twist an OT verse., as you are attempting.

Listen, there is no CROSS in the Old Testament.
Jesus has not died for anyone's sin, in the Old Testament.
The NT, is the NEW Covenant, that has REPLACED the OLD TESTAMENT.
This is why we have a NEW Testament, GracePeace.

I've already addressed this.

You haven't read--not the Scripture, and not my answers (not carefully, at least)--the text says it directly corresponds to those who have been "born again". You can reject Apostolic doctrine if you want but join a different religion don't pretend to be a Christian. The OT authoritatively teaches us about how the NT works.

 

[Tong2020]

I'm talking about eternal life
Being reconciled by His death
How much more will we be saved by His Life.

How is one saved by His life?- When the outcome is walking in the commands.
Another words if through the Spirit one mortified the deeds of the flesh they shall live.

But what happens when they get carried away by the cares of this world? Are you saying they continue to be reward life?

Romans 4:25 who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification.

1 Corinthians 15:17 And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins!

How one is saved by His life is the same as how one is reconciled to God by His death, through faith in God and Jesus Christ.

<<<But what happens when they get carried away by the cares of this world? Are you saying they continue to be reward life?>>>

I don’t take life as a reward, but a gift.

If and when they bear no fruit because they get carried away by the cares of the world, they will received their just reward. They will be chastened by God, those who are His sons.

Tong
R3037

 

[GracePeace]

God does not refute the New Covenant, with the Old Testament.

You should give that up.
Its a bad idea to try to refute the NT by twisting OT verses.
Bad idea, GracePeace.

Again, the NT teaches us to defer to the OT in the very way I am doing.

1 Corinthians 10
11Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come.

 

[GracePeace]

I don’t take life as a reward, but a gift.

Romans 2
6He will render to each one according to his works: 7to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; 8but for those who are self-seekinga and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. 9There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, 10but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. 11For God shows no partiality.
12For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. 14For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them 16on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

Galatians 6
6Let the one who is taught the word share all good things with the one who teaches. 7Do not be deceived: God is not mocked, for whatever one sows, that will he also reap. 8For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. 9And let us not grow weary of doing good, for in due season we will reap, if we do not give up. 10So then, as we have opportunity, let us do good to everyone, and especially to those who are of the household of faith.

 

[Tong2020]

Well you started with Eph 2

I cited Eph.2:8-9 just to show you that salvation is by grace through faith and not works.

Tong
R3038

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Very well, if that is what you want to believe.

I want to because I believe the scriptures are inspired and Paul says the Galatians were saved and that's who he talks to in the letter.

Not that Paul was inspired that it means he knows the hearts of men. Not that Paul was inspired that when he refers to Galatians collectively that each of them individually are all true Christians. Paul would not go against what truth can be learned in Hebrews 6:4-6.

But, as I said, if you want to believe that they all were true Christians...

Tong
R3039

 

[GracePeace]

Not that Paul was inspired that it means he knows the hearts of men. Not that Paul was inspired that when he refers to Galatians collectively that each of them individually are all true Christians. Paul would not go against what truth can be learned in Hebrews 6:4-6.

But, as I said, if you want to believe that they all were true Christians...

Tong
R3039

It is irrelevant whether they were "all" "true" : he specifies that the ones who are erring by seeking to be under Law had already heard the Gospel and received the Spirit by faith (Gal 3:1-5), and these were the same group which had been "severed from Christ" (Gal 5:4).

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
In my reading it is from the wages of sin ~ death.

What it says is they were dead in trespasses and sin......and they were quickened with Christ. So they were dead and now alive...that is the saving here.....that's all it says correct?

Eph.2:5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

Tong
R3040

 

[Amazed@grace]

It is irrelevant whether they were "all" "true" : he specifies that the ones who are erring by seeking to be under Law had already heard the Gospel and received the Spirit by faith (Gal 3:1-5), and these were the same group which had been "severed from Christ" (Gal 5:4).

Galatians 5:4 is a warning passage for those who would reject the doctrine of the eternal security of the believer.

 

[GracePeace]

Galatians 5:4 is a warning passage for those who would reject the doctrine of the eternal security of the believer.

The entire Epistle to the Galatians is about how Christians are not to serve by the Torah but by Grace. It never once touches the issue of "eternal security" except to debunk it indirectly since it shows believers fell away from the faith.

 

[Tong2020]

Sure. Glad you asked.

Jesus called Nicodemus out for not understanding the birth from above by the Holy Spirit. Jesus said he should know since he was a teacher of Israel. So we have to ask ourselves where in the old testament scriptures does it talk about being born again, or born from above, that Nicodemus should have known about, but didn't. Most people cite Ezekiel 36:26-27. And that's good. But I think Jesus had 1 Samuel 10:6 in mind.....

The Spirit of the Lord will come powerfully upon you, and you will prophesy with them; and you will be changed into a different person. 1 Samuel 10:6 ​

From this we see that it is the presence/ influence of the Holy Spirit that makes a person 'different'. And I don't see God removing his Holy Spirit from a born again person being the rock that God can't move. Osas believers will argue vehemently with that, of course. But I think it's very easy to see that you are 'different', a.k.a a 'new' person, with the Holy Spirit, and that you're your same old stinking self without the Holy Spirit. And I see no reason why the Holy Spirit can't come and go from the temple of our bodies as he did in the earthly temple of Moses when they had profaned it beyond remedy (Ezekiel 10:1-19).

@Corlove13

Born from above that Jesus speaks in John 3 which He tells Nicodemus about is birth according not of the will of man, but that of God. It is birth according to the Spirit. And as it is of the will of God and not man, we understand that in such birth, while it concerns man, man’s will has nothing to do with it.

<<<Jesus called Nicodemus out for not understanding the birth from above by the Holy Spirit. Jesus said he should know since he was a teacher of Israel. So we have to ask ourselves where in the old testament scriptures does it talk about being born again, or born from above, that Nicodemus should have known about, but didn't.>>>

Nicodemus, being the teacher of Israel should know about Isaac and Ishmael.

Gal.4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise. 29 But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now.

Isaac was born according to the Spirit and Ishmael born according to the flesh. Isaac was born of the will of God and Ishmael was born of the will of man.

Paul there have revealed something concerning the Christians. That they are children of promise, like Isaac was. And so, like Isaac was, they are born according to the Spirit, that is, they are born from above, born of the will of God.

Tong
R3041

 

[Amazed@grace]

The entire Epistle to the Galatians is about how Christians are not to serve by the Torah but by Grace. It never once touches the issue of "eternal security" except to debunk it indirectly since it shows believers fell away from the faith.

Actually, it does no such thing.
And Paul never once debunked eternal security. He preached it.
Romans 8.


"Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law [or by our own self-righteous works], but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified . . . I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law [or by our own self-righteous works] then Christ is dead in vain."
Galatians 2:16, 21, KJV

 

[GracePeace]

Actually, it does no such thing.
And Paul never once debunked eternal security.

"Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law [or by our own self-righteous works], but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified . . . I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law [or by our own self-righteous works] then Christ is dead in vain."
Galatians 2:16, 21, KJV

"EHHH! Sorry, Hans, wrong guess!"

1) Paul debunks eternal security when he declares believers who have heard the Gospel and received the Spirit by faith (Galatians 3:1-5) consequently fell away from the faith (Galatians 1:6, Galatians 5:4). What does it mean that "Christ is of no avail to you" when Christ is the Savior? Paul says Christ must be formed in some of the Galatians "again" (Galatians 4:19). Why? Why isn't Christ still in them? What happened to "eternal security"?

2) Seeking justification by "works of Law" refers not to "righteous works" but to serving God by means of Torah, or being "under Law" (Galatians 4:21), as that is the constant refrain throughout the entire Epistle (Gal 2, Gal 3, Gal 4, Gal 5, Gal 6 all specifically address this). Notice Paul's conclusion is not "justification is not by works of the Law, instead just believe" but "justification is not by works of the Law, instead serve one another through love" (Galatians 5:6, Galatians 5:13-14). And Galatians 3 says "Having begun by the Spirit are you now being perfected by the flesh?" In other words, Paul's argument is that we progress to spiritual maturity by means of grace and faith, not by submitting ourselves to Torah. That is Paul's point, NOT "just believe in Jesus and you're saved".

3) "The faith of Jesus" is actually "the faithfulness of Jesus"--it's the same Greek word, but think about how ridiculous it would be to say that we are saved by Jesus believing. Jesus believed that Jesus raised from the dead? LOL No, we believed--yes, by God's grace, but still.

4) Stop abusing the Scripture. "Works of the Law" does not refer to "righteous works" it refers to "submitting to Torah" rather than "submitting to Grace" (Ro 6:14). "Under" means "under the jurisdiction of", and we are "not under Law" but we ARE "under Grace"--we are under the jurisdiction and authority of the Spirit of Grace as the means of service to God. "I will write my laws in their minds and hearts".