Once Saved Always Saved

[GracePeace]

In Matthew 10:1, we see that Jesus gave His 12 disciples power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease. This would include Judas Iscariot, yet Jesus referred to Judas Iscariot as an unbelieving, unclean devil who would betray Him. (John 6:71; 13:10-11) Apparently, Judas believed that Jesus' name has the power to cast out demons but did not truly believe in His name (John 1:12) and become a child of God, but instead was the son of perdition. (John 17:12)

I suppose that, other than the fact that we aren't explicitly told Judas did miracles (he may have been sent out to do them but we don't really know if he did them), that would be a good answer for now.

Ezekiel 18:29 - But the house of Israel says, 'The way of the Lord is not right.' Are My ways not right, O house of Israel? Is it not your ways that are not right? But the house of Israel says, 'The way of the Lord is not right.' Are My ways not right, O house of Israel? Is it not your ways that are not right? Ezekiel 33:13 - When I say to the righteous that he shall surely live, but he trusts in his OWN righteousness and commits iniquity, none of his righteous works shall be remembered; but because of the iniquity that he has committed, he shall die. Did you read that? "If he trusts in his OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS." This is the heart of the matter here. This is describing a righteousness which is by the law rather than that which is by faith. The New Testament states in Romans 10:3 - "For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that BELIEVES.

Wrong.

"Trusts in his own righteousness and commits iniquity" means "thinks that just because he has done good he can do evil and get away with it"--it has nothing to do with "righteousness of the Law". God was laying ground rules for today.

The principle is this : righteousness can be yours, but it can also be taken away / forgotten.

Matthew 18
32Then the master summoned him and declared, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave all your debt because you begged me. 33Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant, just as I had on you?’ 34In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should repay all that he owed.

That guy had been forgiven (salvation by grace through faith). Then the forgiveness was rescinded because of his sinful actions.

Now, "faith is counted as righteousness"--that "righteousness" can be forgotten if you think you can rely on it and go committing wickedness. This is the uniform testimony of Scripture--testimony which, not because you have bad intentions, but because you want to preserve a system of belief that you have found to have utility and practicality, you reject.

 

[GracePeace]

Jesus never knew them (Matthew 7:23) which means they were never saved. How then could they be busy with spiritual gifts when they were not genuine Christians? There are people who are “religious, but not right with God” (including false prophets and false teachers) who are busy doing various things which may look spiritual, but they have not genuinely put into practice the words of Jesus.

He says "I never knew you" because He is denying them because they denied Him--they're being blotted out of God's Book because they sinned against God Exodus 32:32-33, Revelation 3:1-5. Their righteousness ("faith is counted as righteousness") is being forgotten. Matthew 25:26 shows that the "measure of faith" is stripped away from some people.

 

[Wrangler]

Isn't defining "faith" as a "work", no matter the intention, going to complicate things (ie, since Paul goes to great lengths, time and again, to draw a distinction between them)?

Discernment. Paul was talking about external works, like build a monument or pay your way to heaven, which I totally agree.

If you look at my thread Evidence to Be Seen, you'll realize I am strongly opposed to Christians holding onto contradictions. One of the biggest contradictions is that being saved takes no work on your part at all. If that were true, universalism would be the right doctrine. It is a contradiction to say no work is required but you have to 'have faith.'

The expression 'have faith' is not meant to be taken as a noun but a verb. Faith is action of believing, trusting is doing, action, work. Let's not kid ourselves.

 

[GracePeace]

Discernment. Paul was talking about external works, like build a monument or pay your way to heaven, which I totally agree.

If you look at my thread Evidence to Be Seen, you'll realize I am strongly opposed to Christians holding onto contradictions. One of the biggest contradictions is that being saved takes no work on your part at all. If that were true, universalism would be the right doctrine. It is a contradiction to say no work is required but you have to 'have faith.'

The expression 'have faith' is not meant to be taken as a noun but a verb. Faith is action of believing, trusting is doing, action, work. Let's not kid ourselves.

Sir, "works of the Law" include "internal works"--eg, the greatest Law is "love God". Where is the love? Is it a physical object? Isn't it internal and invisible? "Do not covet" is to govern your thoughts and spirit, your desires, which are internal not external. Et cetera.

Example of Paul going through pains to establish a distinction between faith and works:

Romans 4
1What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? 2For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” 4Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5And to the one who does not work but believes ina him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, 6just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:

 

[amigo de christo]

It's the ultimate ear tickling doctrine—

“ Ear Tickling” is telling people what they want to hear—-mainly, “I’ll save myself by MAKING myself Worthy” ......I do this by doing my best to “ live the Christian Life” ( I Stop Sinning) and rely on my ability to use Repentance to fill the Gaps when I mess up......No Repentance from all of the Sins I commit after I am “ saved?” No Salvation!

Personally, I Don’t worry about all that stuff.....I am “ MADE Worthy “ by the Blood Of The Lamb.....I REST in that Knowledge.....

I can’t lose my Salvation no matter what Sins I commit —— I could conceivably “ get away” with anything I choose to do! Now that I have a New Heart what do I “ Choose” to do? Obey God. Ain’t Christianity crazy? A man who has Complete Freedom freely choose to be God’s Slave —- only God could come up with something “this” Wild.....and so OPPOSITE of what the World and Legalists and Religionists and Tares think.....it must really be a drag to be them.....

Man BB , most folks dont want to hear they have to actually be HOLY . THEY had rather hear
a message that says hey you can sin and still have JESUS . You are preaching the ear tickling message my friend .
Folks want to FEEL SAVED and still have their sin . Ponder on that one .
Most folks hate being told , BE HOLY , DONT SIN , Follow GOD . Continue to the end .
This generation is huge on wanting a god , any god , any version of god , so long as they can have they sin too . Ponder on that one .
THEN you will see who has been preaching the ear tickling message all along . VERSUS the BE YE HOLY FOR HE IS HOLY MESSAGE .

 

[mailmandan]

I suppose that, other than the fact that we aren't explicitly told Judas did miracles (he may have sent out to do them but we don't really know if he did), that would be a good answer for now.

At least you made a good point here.

 

[GracePeace]

At least you made a good point here.

This was actually the only good point you've ever made. LOL

 

[mailmandan]

He says "I never knew you" because He is denying them because they denied Him--they're being blotted out of God's Book because they sinned against God Exodus 32:32-33, Revelation 3:1-5. Their righteousness ("faith is counted as righteousness") is being forgotten. Matthew 25:26 shows that the "measure of faith" is stripped away from some people.

Wrong. Jesus said I NEVER knew you in Matthew 7:23 and NOT I once knew you but don’t anymore.

 

[GracePeace]

Wrong. Jesus said I NEVER knew you in Matthew 7:23 and NOT I once knew you but don’t anymore.

I interpret Scripture by Scripture.

God blots people who sin against Him out of His book Exodus 32:32-33, Psalms 69:28, Revelation 3:1-5.

God removes peoples' measures of faith Matthew 25:26.

God rescinds saving mercy--a reversal/removal of what saving faith obtained Matthew 18.

God forgets peoples' righteousness Ezekiel 18.

When He does these things, it becomes as though the person had never had those things at all--hence, "I never knew you."

 

[mailmandan]

I interpret Scripture by Scripture.

God blots people who sin against Him out of His book Exodus 32:32-33, Psalms 69:28, Revelation 3:1-5.

God removes peoples' measures of faith Matthew 25:26.

God rescinds saving mercy--a reversal/removal of what saving faith obtained Matthew 18.

God forgets peoples' righteousness Ezekiel 18.

You seem to interpret scripture according to your preconceived beliefs. More later.

 

[GracePeace]

You seem to interpret scripture according to your preconceived beliefs. More later.

"Preconceived"? When I read Scripture, and it tells me all of these things, it informs me that God will remove people from His Book, that righteousness can be forgotten, etc, etc, etc, you, because of your "pre (and ill) conceived beliefs", want me to ignore God?

The reality is that you don't have room in your tradition for the dynamics revealed in the Scriptures I cited.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Lol.....what on EARTH makes all you Religionists out think that I am some kind of EVIL SIN MONSTER ? Haha.....

I don't know why the religionists think that but for me I'm just going by what you said. You've been playing up a pretty big case for your sinning. And then judging us for not doing the same. I'd have to be a liar to do that. I got radically changed when I got born again.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Don’t attack me just because I am I more Mature in the Faith than you guys

You don't know what it means to be a mature Christian. It doesn't mean you have more theological knowledge than the rest of us. It means you live more like Christ than the rest of us. Why don't you know this? You claim to read your Bible, yet this important point escapes you. Did Andrew Farley not teach you this?

 

[Ferris Bueller]

I HATE SIN , but I am just a lot more “ Son” Conscience than I am “ SIN “ Conscience.

If you really are 'Son' conscious and not 'Sin' conscious you'll look and act like the Son. People who have seen God look like Jesus. Doesn't Andrew Farley teach this?

 

[Ferris Bueller]

In the Real World—-and it is NOT my nature to brag.....I am the Kindest, most Considerate, most Forgiving , most Sensitive Person you would ever meet —- quick to understand and not judge others

...except if you're a legalist. Or perceived to be a legalist. Then the love ends, lol. Then you turn into the snarly faced old man (who had greeted you earlier with the warm ear to ear smile at the front door before he considered you a legalist). Because that's what Jesus and Paul did, Right?

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Jesus never knew them (Matthew 7:23) which means they were never saved. How then could they be busy with spiritual gifts when they were not genuine Christians? There are people who are “religious, but not right with God” (including false prophets and false teachers) who are busy doing various things which may look spiritual, but they have not genuinely put into practice the words of Jesus.

You left me with the impression that you thought these people were somehow doing works of obedience, but which were unacceptable because they were not saved and so they were works of self righteousness.

So you weren't talking about them doing acts of obedience, the obedience upon which a house stands, not falls when the river rises, right? If so, I agree. They thought their sacrifice of service somehow equated to obedience. I have seen lots of people like that in the church. They're busy with church programs, and tithing, and church attendance, and bake sales, and evangelistic outreaches and they think that constitutes what it means to not be the condemned, lawless person who doesn't put Jesus' words into practice. Nothing wrong with those things. It's just that they are a poor, deceitful substitute for the fruit of the Spirit and the works it produces.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

“ Ear Tickling” is telling people what they want to hear—-mainly, “I’ll save myself by MAKING myself Worthy” ......I do this by doing my best to “ live the Christian Life” ( I Stop Sinning) and rely on my ability to use Repentance to fill the Gaps when I mess up......No Repentance from all of the Sins I commit after I am “ saved?” No Salvation!

That has been a problem in the church, too. But we're talking about the ear tickling doctrine that says you can purposely live in unrepentant sin all you want and you are still saved and will always be saved. That's making grace a license to sin. If it is not, please inform us what making grace a license to sin is.

 

[Tong2020]

It's interesting how Osas has to jump in to make sure you don't think Paul is saying that those who stand by faith will not be spared because they fell back into unbelief.....

"They were broken off because of unbelief, but you stand by faith. ...if God did not spare the natural branches, He will certainly not spare you either." Romans 11:20-21​

Was Paul talking there of individuals or of Israel in Romans 11? Nope. To take that as talking about individuals is a misuse of scriptures.

Tong
R3190

 

[Tong2020]

OSAS is so ridiculous! What are the odds that none of these who did all those things in the Name of Jesus were never saved? OSAS is a total SCAM!

Matthew 7:22-23 (NKJV)
22 Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'23 And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

Please don’t say that about the truth that in Christ, the child of God is safe and secured by faith.

Tong
R3191

 

[Tong2020]

Yes, I know that was your point. And I agree with that. I was pointing out that you can't automatically assign every argument that says, 'works are the basis for salvation' to the 'self righteous works earn salvation' argument. Because we see in Matthew 25:31-46 that works really are the basis upon which Jesus ushers us into the eternal kingdom or casts us into the eternal fire. And we know he's definitely not making a case for the value of self righteous works. So we have to be careful to examine every 'works are the basis for salvation' argument and see what it's actually saying before we condemn it. For we really are going into the kingdom of God based on our works, just not on the basis of our works earning our entry into the kingdom as payment due for righteous work performed.

Works are not the basis, faith is. For faith is that which was accounted as righteousness, not works. Faith is that which pleases God. For without faith, it is IMPOSSIBLE to please God.

Work isn’t the basis, rather works shows what faith one have.

Tong
R3192