Once Saved Always Saved

[Ferris Bueller]

Yes, you indeed say that. And that even while you understand about babes in Christ. That when they, in their infant immature situation, are deceived and led astray by false teachings, and dies so that they had not grown to maturity, that when the time comes, Jesus will say to them “I never knew you”, “depart from me”, “you who practice lawlessness.” And that is you say because of the parable of the Sower. Only shows the misuse of the parable.

Tong
R3335

How does a mature, fruit bearing Christian not have an intimate relationship with God? God knows that kind of believer intimately, and they know him intimately. So we know Jesus is not talking about mature believers who he does not know. That would be an oxymoron. You should be in full agreement with this. So the ones he never knew are either those who never were saved, or those who never matured in their relationship with God. These people have to be one of the first three kinds of soil that he talks about in the Parable of the Sower—the unsaved and immature soils, not the mature, fruit bearing 4th soil.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
That was the problem with Israel that scriptures say, right?

That's what it says. They were the problem, not the law in and of itself. The writer of Hebrews says it here......

For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. But God found fault with the people Hebrews 8:7-8​

See the 'problem' with the law was not the law, but the people for whom it was given. It was only wrong in that it was unsuitable as a way for fallen man to attain life and be righteous. As I've noted, the law was not a hindrance to the man Jesus.

That is no issue.

The law given was not unsuitable as a way for fallen man to attain life and be righteous. God is wise and perfectly knows what He was doing.

Tong
R3337

 

[BloodBought 1953]

I appreciate what you're saying here, BB, but the truth is those who live in obedience to God's commands are the one's who are the closest to Jesus.

Yes....but how does one become “ Truly Obedient?” I maintain it is by Resting in the Gopel.....when you REST in the Gospel and the Finished Work Of the Cross —— KNOWING That you are TOTALLY FORGIVEN , KNOWING your Salvation has NOTHING to do with “ Your” Performance But that your Salvation is based on Trusting in “HIS” PERFORMANCE .....knowing that you don't have to try to “BE WORTHY” because you are “ MADE WORTHY” by the Shed Blood Of The Lamb......That RELIEF , that removal of that Enormous Weight Of PERFORMING instead of TRUSTING —— THAT and THAT ONLY is what Spurs a True Peace in a person’s Soul . That “ Peace that passes understanding” is what Spurs Love , and LOVE is the Engine that drives True Obedience.....

Don't misunderstand me here .... ANY Obedience is better than none and you will be better off any time you obey God. But if it is based on obligation or fear—- if it does not flow naturally from a heart of Love that Craves to please God—— it’s just a pale imitation of what God “really” desires to see......a lot of this stuff is just “ Dead Works “......see to it that you’re “ Obedience “ is not a forced one.....let it flow naturally out of Love .....it all starts by doing what God Commands us to do in Hebrews —- it’s the up-side, The ultimate Reward for simply doing what God says to do ——- REST IN THE GOSPEL ! REST in that Finished “ Work Of The Cross”

We seem to agree on the Goal—- we differ in the way to get there...” The man who finds Life will find it by TRUSTING GOD”.....True Trust will lead to Obedience .....Obedience does not lead to Trust .....First things First .....Many people that are Disobedient to God will Find Heaven ( few were ever as Evil as David , yet he Trusted God and was Saved) ....those that do not “ Trust” God don't have a chance....( ask Judas,He never Trusted God, He Trusted a hangman’s Noose)

Just remer , as I tend to get “ wordy” —— Be Obedient....Go about it correctly.... Resting in the Gospel spurs Love ....Love Is he Engine that drives Obedience ..... God Bless...

 

[Ferris Bueller]

The issue is not with that scriptures.

And there again, it’s between what you say and what scriptures say through Paul. I stick with scriptures, all the time.

And I said, I do not add to scriptures. Scriptures says that there was no law given that could give life. For if there was, righteousness would have been by the law.

Tong
R3336

So you did not understand what I said. I explained using scripture what Paul meant when he said there is no law given that can impart life. There is no law given that can impart life to fallen man. Again, this is just a matter of knowing the whole counsel of scripture, not just pigeonholing a single verse and formulating a belief from that alone. So, I'm not changing what Paul said. I'm using all of scripture to explain what he said.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Yes, you are saying that. But Jesus was saying “I never knew you”. Period.

Did he say, "I never knew you" because they were never saved or because he never entered into an intimate knowing relationship with them when they were saved? See, it's not as cut and dry as you're making it out to be. These are legitimate questions based on other verses of scripture about 'knowing'.

You read what He said ~ “I never knew you”.

It is not cut and dry for you I see.

Perhaps they are questions for one such as you. But Jesus said nothing more but “I never knew you”. Whether that is intimate or not, is immaterial to the point that Jesus never knew them.

Tong
R3338

 

[BarneyFife]

How noble, But how do you go from a troll to a dog? stop acting like an animal man, Those doctrines.... Where do we go from here....Barns got anything positive to add?

Hmm, positive. How's this? I'm positively pre-comatose from your passive-aggressive condescension.

10-4?
10-4.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

The law given was not unsuitable as a way for fallen man to attain life and be righteous.

Then why did the law that Moses said would give life and be our righteousness not do that then? Because Moses was actually lying? No. But because fallen man does not have the capacity to tap the potential of the law to give life and be your righteousness. And so there is no law that is able to do that for him. Again, I have to point out that if the law is not righteousness for the person who keeps it as Moses said it is, then Jesus did not secure the declaration of righteousness we are counting on him to have attained on our behalf.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Yes, you indeed say that. And that even while you understand about babes in Christ. That when they, in their infant immature situation, are deceived and led astray by false teachings, and dies so that they had not grown to maturity, that when the time comes, Jesus will say to them “I never knew you”, “depart from me”, “you who practice lawlessness.” And that is you say because of the parable of the Sower. Only shows the misuse of the parable.

How does a mature, fruit bearing Christian not have an intimate relationship with God? God knows that kind of believer intimately, and they know him intimately. So we know Jesus is not talking about mature believers who he does not know. That would be an oxymoron. You should be in full agreement with this. So the ones he never knew are either those who never were saved, or those who never matured in their relationship with God. These people have to be one of the first three kinds of soil that he talks about in the Parable of the Sower—the unsaved and immature soils, not the mature, fruit bearing 4th soil.

<<<So the ones he never knew are either those who never were saved, or those who never matured in their relationship with God.>>>

Yes, that’s what you are saying. And on the latter, you only affirmed what you say about the babes in Christ who dies as babes. There goes the babes in Christ....expecting nothing from Christ comes that day, to be told “I never knew you”, “ depart from Me”, “ you who practice lawlessness”.

Tong
R3339

 

[Ferris Bueller]

You read what He said ~ “I never knew you”.

It is not cut and dry for you I see.

Perhaps they are questions for one such as you. But Jesus said nothing more but “I never knew you”. Whether that is intimate or not, is immaterial to the point that Jesus never knew them.

Tong
R3338

So you just don't want to listen to what he's saying in the light of the rest of scripture. So be it. I can't make you consider the rest of scripture.

 

[HisLife]

Hmm, positive. How's this? I'm positively pre-comatose from your passive-aggressive condescension.

10-4?
10-4.

You have always had a case of like to give it but cant handle it, ol powder puff, I do kind of like you so I will give you a one time offer of peace want to start over?

 

[BloodBought 1953]

No, because there is no law that fallen man can keep. The righteousness of the law is completely contrary to the nature of man. The problem was with man, not with the law. Christ proved that by the simple fact that he is a man who kept the law.

Scripture reveals that perhaps “ The Law” ain't all that great—- it had “ its” problems too



Acts
The law is an unbearable yoke. (Acts 15:10)

Romans
The law reveals sin but cannot fix it. (Romans 3:20)

If the law worked then faith would be irrelevant. (Romans 4:14)

The law brings wrath upon those who follow it. (Romans 4:15)

The purpose of the law was to increase sin. (Romans 5:20)

Christians are not under the law. (Romans 6:14)

Christians have been delivered from the law. (Romans 7:1-6)

The law is good, perfect and holy but cannot help you be good, perfect or holy. (Romans 7:7-12)

The law which promises life only brings death through sin. (Romans 7:10)

The law makes you sinful beyond measure. (Romans 7:13)

The law is weak. (Romans 8:2-3)

1 Corinthians
The strength of sin is the law (1 Corinthians 15:56)

2 Corinthians
The law is a ministry of death. (2 Corinthians 3:7)

The law is a ministry of condemnation. (2 Corinthians 3:9)

The law has no glory at all in comparison with the New Covenant. (2 Corinthians 3:10)

The law is fading away. (2 Corinthians 3:11)

Anywhere the law is preached it produces a mind-hardening and a heart-hardening veil. (2 Corinthians 3:14-15)

Galatians
The law justifies nobody. (Galatians 2:16)

Christians are dead to the law. (Galatians 2:19)

The law frustrates grace. (Galatians 2:21)

To go back to the law after racing faith is “stupid”. (Galatians 3:1)

The law curses all who practice it and fail to do it perfectly. (Galatians 3:10)

The law has nothing to do with faith. (Galatians 3:11-12)

The law was a curse that Christ redeemed us from. (Galatians 3:13)

The law functioned in God’s purpose as a temporary covenant from Moses till John the Baptist announced Christ. (Galatians 3:16 & 19, also see… Matthew 11:12-13, Luke 16:16)

If the law worked God would have used it to save us. (Galatians 3:21)

The law was our prison. (Galatians 3:23)

The law makes you a slave like Hagar. (Galatians 4:24)

Ephesians
Christ has abolished the law which was a wall of hostility (Ephesians 2:15)

Philippians
Paul considered everything the law gained him as “skybalon” which is Greek for “poop”. (Philippians 3:4-8)

1 Timothy
The law is only good if used in the right context. (1 Timothy 1:8) (see next verse for the context)

It was made for the unrighteous but not for the righteous. (1 Timothy 1:9-10)

Hebrews
The law is weak, useless and makes nothing perfect. (Hebrews 7:18-19)

God has found fault with it and created a better covenant, enacted on better promises. (Hebrews 8:7-8)

It is obsolete, growing old and ready to vanish. (Hebrews 8:13)

It is only a shadow of good things to come and will never make someone perfect. (Hebrews 10:1)

 

[HisLife]

Jesus pointed out the things that can cause a person to cast the word of God out of his heart in unbelief—trials, tribulations, persecutions, testings, etc. The implication being this involves situations and circumstances in which a person makes a conscious, willing decision to stop believing. If you died after making such a conscious decision to not believe any more you would die as an unsaved unbeliever and not enter into the kingdom at the resurrection. But it sounds like you're talking about not being able to believe anymore because of a medical condition or something like that takes away your capacity to be able to believe. I don't see God holding that against them if that person was believing before those conditions arose that caused them to not have the capacity to believe anymore. Am I understanding your question correctly?

Yea you understood correctly lol thanks for the answer, So to me that would seam like belief the moment you die isn't concrete, its more of a case of separation or been allowed to make a choice to walk away before you die? Am I understanding that right?

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
The issue is not with that scriptures.

And there again, it’s between what you say and what scriptures say through Paul. I stick with scriptures, all the time.

And I said, I do not add to scriptures. Scriptures says that there was no law given that could give life. For if there was, righteousness would have been by the law.

So you did not understand what I said. I explained using scripture what Paul meant when he said there is no law given that can impart life. There is no law given that can impart life to fallen man. Again, this is just a matter of knowing the whole counsel of scripture, not just pigeonholing a single verse and formulating a belief from that alone. So, I'm not changing what Paul said. I'm using all of scripture to explain what he said.

What I understand is what scriptures says concerning that.

Paul said there was no law given that could give life. That is plain to me and requires no further explanation. That statement says nothing about man nor what man could or
could not do. It simply tells us what it plainly states regarding the law that was given through Moses to Israel.

Tong
R3340

 

[Ferris Bueller]

And on the latter, you only affirmed what you say about the babes in Christ who dies as babes.

...who die in unbelief, because of their immaturity. Like the soil in the Parable of the soil that did not retain the word because it was the soil of an immature believer who checked out because of hardship. Make sure you understand the whole argument. Falling away seems to be linked to the immature in the Bible (i.e. the Galatians, the Parable of the Sower, the child who is stumbled....), not linked to the mature, obedient, fruitful believer.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Yea you understood correctly lol thanks for the answer, So to me that would seam like belief the moment you die isn't concrete, its more of a case of separation or been allowed to make a choice to walk away before you die? Am I understanding that right?

Yes. If I'm reading you right, you understand what I'm saying correctly. We will face situations and circumstances that will test us to see if we want to believe in God or not. The more mature and intimate we become with Christ the more likely we will pass the test and choose to continue to believe. I even think there is a point of maturity that we can come to where we will never go back no matter what.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Paul said there was no law given that could give life. That is plain to me and requires no further explanation.

You would be right if there was no further explanation in scripture. But there is, and you are ignoring it.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

That statement says nothing about man nor what man could or
could not do.

That's right. That information is given in other passages of scripture.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
The law given was not unsuitable as a way for fallen man to attain life and be righteous.

Then why did the law that Moses said would give life and be our righteousness not do that then? Because Moses was actually lying? No. But because fallen man does not have the capacity to tap the potential of the law to give life and be your righteousness. And so there is no law that is able to do that for him. Again, I have to point out that if the law is not righteousness for the person who keeps it as Moses said, then Jesus did not secure the declaration of righteousness we are counting on him to have attained on our behalf.

You seem to be mixing up what Moses said concerning the law and what Paul says. What life was Moses talking about that the law would give, and what life was Paul saying that there is no law that could give. You are not saying that Paul and Moses contradicts each other, right?

<<<Again, I have to point out that if the law is not righteousness for the person who keeps it as Moses said, then Jesus did not secure the declaration of righteousness we are counting on him to have attained on our behalf.>>>

Perhaps another issue to talk about.

Scriptures is clear which says if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law.

Tong
R3341

 

[BarneyFife]

You have always had a case of like to give it but handle it, ol powder puff, I do kind of like you so I will give you a one time offer of peace want to start over?

Sure, and I'll throw in a 70 times 7 pledge, if you're interested.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
You read what He said ~ “I never knew you”.

It is not cut and dry for you I see.

Perhaps they are questions for one such as you. But Jesus said nothing more but “I never knew you”. Whether that is intimate or not, is immaterial to the point that Jesus never knew them.

So you just don't want to listen to what he's saying in the light of the rest of scripture. So be it. I can't make you consider the rest of scripture.

I did listen to what Jesus is saying. You just think I do not. And you are saying something different and more than what He is saying, that I am not listening to.

And just like no one can force anyone what to do and believe, I also can’t make you consider the rest of scriptures. We can say that, why not. But saying that does not make anyone’s position stand or fall by that.

Tong
R3342