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Once Saved Always Saved ?

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by excepttruth, Dec 24, 2008.

  1. RichardBurger

    RichardBurger New Member

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    (Christina;66612)
    Well to those who disagree to quote logabe you are in the milk of men you do not understand at all the scripture says you have a promise of salvation .IF...IF thats if you carry out your part... God never breaks his Word but you can break yours ...and most will ... When they follow antichrist thinking he is christ you worship a false god because you did not read what God warnings to you ... What will God say when you??????? Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? This is not unbelievers these are believers ... Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. This is not OSAS do not delude youself lest you be caught in this trap Mat 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
    So, you say that since I and others disagree we do not understand the scriptures. I suppose you are the final word, right?Just wonderful.Richard
     
  2. RichardBurger

    RichardBurger New Member

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    2 Cor 11:33 But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. NKJVBut men do not want it to be simple.Gal 3:1-41 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified?2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?4 Have you suffered so many things in vain — if indeed it was in vain? NKJVBut religious men think they are being made perfect in the flesh. A direct contradiction to verse 3 above. No one can keep him/her self from sinning in the flesh. -- But I understand the gospel of good works makes them think they can.Richard
     
  3. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    These are not my words they are Gods ...if you think you are right be my guest My duty here is to tell you what scripture says Not what to believe you do not want to hear/see it your choice ..However I stand by the fact there is no such doctrine as OSAS the entire purpose of the harvest of the End times (parable of the tares two in the field ect. ) is to seperate the wheat for the chaff... Every single person on earth will chose to follow a fake christ (antichrist) or wait for the true Christ at the 7th trump. There will be a great delusion upon the ENTIRE EARTH the only way you will know this is by reading Gods Word to you ... but hey if you want to listen to men who twist the Words be my guest..Gods says he will say ... I never knew you ..And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.P.S. your verse mean nothing about OSAS the fact we are being refinded/tested in the flesh does not mean everyone is saved
     
  4. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    I might also ask you OSAS believers to explain to me if this is true how is there an Unforgivable sin which can only be commited by believers ...
     
  5. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    QUOTE (Christina;66639)
    QUOTE (RichardBurger;66634)
    So, you say that since I and others disagree we do not understand the scriptures. I suppose you are the final word, right?Just wonderful.Richard
    I might also ask you OSAS believers to explain to me if this is true how is there an Unforgivable sin which can only be commited by believers ...Matthew 12:31 - Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.Matthew 12:32 - And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come....Mark 3:28 - Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:Mark 3:29 - But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation....Luke 12:10 - And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven....Matthew 7:21-23 - Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
     
  6. RichardBurger

    RichardBurger New Member

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    I might also ask you OSAS believers to explain to me if this is true how is there an Unforgivable sin which can only be commited by believers ...
    Where do you get this in the scriptures? Who was Jesus taliking to?From what I read in the scriptures those that place their faith, trust, confidence in Jesus and His work on the cross are not condemned, John 3:16-18.But you don't want others to believe this because it does not agree with you and your idea that if you don't do good works you will not be saved. Who is the judge of the children of God, you?Now bring on your scriptures that prove my scriptures wrong because to you John just wasn't telling the complete/whole truth, he left out the part about our works.Richard
     
  7. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    I might also ask you OSAS believers to explain to me if this is true how is there an Unforgivable sin which can only be commited by believers ...
    Where do you get this in the scriptures? Who was Jesus taliking to?From what I read in the scriptures those that place their faith, trust, confidence in Jesus and His work on the cross are not condemned, John 3:16-18.But you don't want others to believe this because it does not agree with you and your idea that if you don't do good works you will not be saved. Who is the judge of the children of God, you?Now bring on your scriptures that prove my scriptures wrong because to you John just wasn't telling the complete/whole truth, he left out the part about our works.RichardRead my post above. There's the answer straight from Christ Himself.And RichardBurger, how can one blaspheme the Holy Ghost, if one does not have it? The only blaspheme the unbeliever can do is blaspheming ths Son of man!
     
  8. RichardBurger

    RichardBurger New Member

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    I do not believe that once God has made a person His child He will permit that person to be lost in hell. The following are some of the reasons why.I am not saved by God and made His child to fear but to come boldly into His presence in my heart expecting to be loved as His child. Please consider what Paul wrote about this. 2 Tim 1:7-8 7 For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind. 8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, (NKJ) Heb 4:15-16 15 For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need. (NKJ) If people will look at the letters Paul wrote to the churches they will find that in every case it was not their good lives/works that he spoke of, but it was their faith. I recognize a child of God by where he/she has placed their faith; is it in Jesus or in themselves and their works. If you are using works of the flesh as a guideline to determine another child of God then you should consider what Jesus spoke of in the following references. Matt 7:2, John 8:15, Acts 4:19 Rom 2:1,Rom 14:10, James 4:11, Matt 23:25-26 Trying to judge another child of God by what is seen on the outside is foolishness. Even the Devil can make himself seem to be an angel of light. There are many Tares in the churches today and no one is able to determine who they are by their good works (Matt. 13:24-30). For those who wish to judge others I say this; judge them for what they do “”for Jesus,”” not what they do to make others see that they are a good person. My good works are sharing the gospel of God's grace as Paul taught it and I am constantly reminded of this written by Paul. Rom 14:4 4 Who are you to judge another's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand. (NKJ) But I have come to understand that one of the sins of mankind is that they WANT to judge others. They do it to elevate their own ego.Scriptures that support OSAS.John 10:26-42 "But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.28 "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand.30 "I and My Father are one." (NKJ)In the above verses the Son of God (God) has told us that His sheep know Him and He knows them and He gives them eternal life and they shall never perish. But many do not believe that Jesus has the power to keep a person saved? If they do not then they are left with having to trust in their own power and IMHO it will lead away from grace.1 Pet 1:4-54 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. (NKJ)I have an inheritance, promised by God, incorruptible and undefiled that does not fade away so how can anyone tell me that it will fade away and who, in the verse above keeps me a child of God? Isn't it God Himself?I Jn 5:4-54 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world-- our faith.5 Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God? (NKJ)The scripture above tells us that God, through the non-physical baptism of the Holy Spirit, makes us His child (born of God) when we place our faith in what Jesus (God) did on the cross, and the scripture further tells us that we have overcome the world by our faith in what He (God) did on the cross. It does not say we overcome by our works. We overcome by our faith in What He has done.Everyone seems to look for proof IN THE SCRIPTURES that they are saved. What happened to faith? What happened to the relationship with God that is in the hearts of the children of God that lets them KNOW they are saved? The only proof anyone will have is the witness of the Holy Spirit in the hearts of the children of God. If they do not have that relationship then they are not a child of God.Rom 8:99 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. (NKJ)2 Cor 1:21-2221 Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us is God,22 who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee. (NKJ)It is God that establishes us in Christ, not us.2 Cor 5:5-75 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord.7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. (NKJ) If God makes you righteous by your faith, trust, confidence, and hope in what Jesus (God) did on the cross then why is it that many feel they must be made righteous by what they do? Let us look at the following verses.Heb 7:18-2218 For on the one hand there is an annulling of the former commandment because of its weakness and unprofitableness,19 for the law made nothing perfect; on the other hand, there is the bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God.20 And inasmuch as He was not made priest without an oath21 (for they have become priests without an oath, but He with an oath by Him who said to Him: "The Lord has sworn and will not relent, 'You are a priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek' "),22 by so much more Jesus has become a surety of a better covenant.(NKJ)Heb 8:6-76 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.(NKJ)Under the law no one could be ""MADE"" perfect because of the weakness of men who live in a body with a sinful nature. Therefore He came, and because of what He did on the cross, He can, and will, justify those, that come to Him, by His own blood. He imputes, reckons, accounts (what ever word you wish to use) His righteousness to those of faith in Him (what He did and not what mankind does).In other words, God knows we cannot be good and keep the laws. He said so through Jesus. So He has made a way to give us the free gift of salvation that is NOT based on us (our works), but on Him. If salvation is still based on us then Jesus died in vain.Salvation under the grace of God is not by the law. God did all that is required to save us on the cross. Either you believe it, or you don't, that is what faith is. It is stepping out onto the water and knowing that He (God) can, and will, keep you afloat. No one can do it for you.Does all this mean we are free to sin? How can those walking with God in their hearts feel free to commit sin? --- In fact we condemn sins of the flesh when we no longer feel we can overcome our sins of the flesh and need the work of God on the cross.Richard
     
  9. RichardBurger

    RichardBurger New Member

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    And RichardBurger, how can one blaspheme the Holy Ghost, if one does not have it? The only blaspheme the unbeliever can do is blaspheming ths Son of men!
    So you are saying that the only way to blaspheme the Holy Spirit is to have Him, how do you get this idea? Where is it found in the scriptures?It is a truth that the Jews rejected God when they said they wanted a king to rule over them. It is a truth that the Jews rejected Jesus, the Son of God, as their king when they said they had no king but Caesar (John 19:15)Up until this point they had not rejected the Holy Spirit. However, when Stephens was filled with the Holy Spirit and was preaching to the Jews, they stoned him to death. -- At this point the Jews had completely rejected all three parts of the triune God and it brought about the rejection of the Jews by God.Those who have been made children of God, by God, accept all of God, The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.But it seems to me that you equate sinning in the flesh with blaspheming the Holy Spirit. Where do you get that idea?Richard
     
  10. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    QUOTE (RichardBurger;66676)
    QUOTE (Jordan;66673)
    Read my post above. There's the answer straight from Christ Himself.And RichardBurger, how can one blaspheme the Holy Ghost, if one does not have it? The only blaspheme the unbeliever can do is blaspheming ths Son of men!
    So you are saying that the only way to blaspheme the Holy Spirit is to have Him, how do you get this idea? Where is it found in the scriptures?It is a truth that the Jews rejected God when they said they wanted a king to rule over them. It is a truth that the Jews rejected Jesus, the Son of God, as their king when they said they had no king but Caesar (John 19:15)Up until this point they had not rejected the Holy Spirit. However, when Stephens was filled with the Holy Spirit and was preaching to the Jews, they stoned him to death. -- At this point the Jews had completely rejected all three parts of the triune God and it brought about the rejection of the Jews by God.Those who have been made children of God, by God, accept all of God, The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.But it seems to me that you equate sinning in the flesh with blaspheming the Holy Spirit. Where do you get that idea?RichardThe unforgiveable sin, in which is only for believers because once an unbeliever ask Christ to be Lord and Saviour and therefore now receives the Holy Spirit.This is the verse that is the unforgiveable sin.Mark 13:11 - But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.Refuse to let the Holy Spirit speak through you, that is the unforgiveable sin. But the time for the unforgiveable sin has not yet come. Today, so far, is impossible to commit this sin.
     
  11. epistemaniac

    epistemaniac New Member

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    (Christina;66639)
    I might also ask you OSAS believers to explain to me if this is true how is there an Unforgivable sin which can only be commited by believers ...
    what makes you think this sin can only be committed by believers? The passage says:Mat 12:31-32 esv Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. (32) And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come."or, if you like, here it is in the 1611 KJV:Mat 12:31-32 KJV-1611 Wherefore I say vnto you, All maner of sinne and blasphemie shall be forgiuen vnto men: but the blasphemie against the holy Ghost, shall not bee forgiuen vnto men. (32) And whosoeuer speaketh a word against the sonne of man, it shall be forgiuen him: but whosoeuer speaketh against the holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiuen him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.0r the 1769 KJV:Mat 12:31-32 KJV Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. (32) And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.In fact, the passage in Luke seems to be describing someone that is explicitly not a Christian, for it is referring to those who deny the Son of God...:Luk 12:8-10 esv And I tell you, everyone who acknowledges me before men, the Son of Man also will acknowledge before the angels of God, (9) but the one who denies me before men will be denied before the angels of God. (10) And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but the one who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.At any rate I can't see one single thing in this passage (or the parallel passage is Mark and Luke) that specifically says anything about it referring to a Christian. I would think that satan has committed this sin, surely he is not a believer, is he? Yo may interpret these passages to be refferring to Christians, but that is just your interpretation, the word of God itself never says that this is speaking of or to Christians.blessings,ken
     
  12. logabe

    logabe Active Member

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    Getting back to the last post on Servants and Sons, in order to understand God's Plan for humanity one mustrightly divide the Word so it begins to make since to thereader.The New Testament uses the Greek term huiothesia, which the King James Version translates as “adoption of sons. "Huios means “sons,” and thesia means “placement or establishment.” So huiothesia means “the (legal) placement of sons.” It is a reference to the father's legal ceremony where he gives his son power of attorney over the estate. He can then sign his name to documents and it is recognized as legally binding. But such authority is not given to immature sons. It was given only when the Father had confidence in the character of his son and knew that the son could be fully trusted. In essence, the Father knew that the son would do only what the Father would do. Thus, the son was an extension of the Father's will. John 8:34-36 says, 34 Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. 35 And the slave does not remain in the house forever [for The Age, or for the Messianic Age]; the son does remain forever. 36 If therefore the Son shall make you free, you shall be free indeed. Here Jesus comments on the difference between the servant and the son. This is really based upon the law in the first six verses of Exodus 21, where the law says that Hebrew servants were to work for six years, and be set free at the start of the seventh year. The law then says that if the servant does not want to be set free—if he prefers the master's inheritance to his own—he may return and become a perpetual servant. In such a case he would have his ear lobe bored to the door with an awl. This signified that his ear was opened. The symbolism of this act was to show that the servant loved his master and was in full agreement with the laws of the household. In returning, he showed that the laws of the master were now in his heart. As an involuntary servant, the man was forced to obey, but as a voluntary servant, the man wanted to obey. The difference is that the first kind of servant obeys because he must, while the second obeys because he is in agreement with the law of the master. The “door” prophesied in Exodus 21:6 to which the servant's ear is attached, is Christ Himself. Jesus said in John 10:9, “I am the door.” When the servant's ear was attached to the door, it signified that he was hearing the words of Jesus Christ Himself. Logabe
     
  13. epistemaniac

    epistemaniac New Member

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    that's what i thought [​IMG] it is clear that the bible itself does not say that the sin of blaspheming the Holy Spirit can only be committed by Christians, and we ought not try and add the traditions and doctrines of men, or our interpretations to the level of the scriptures themselves as if they are equal to the scriptures themselves.That is my only point. And I see by the non-response that it must be a good point. [​IMG]blessings,ken
     
  14. excepttruth

    excepttruth New Member

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    Again who is Jesus talking to in John 15: 1-9? Clearly one can not be a branch of the vine, unless one has excepted the atonment of our Lords scarifice, and having the Holy Spirit living with in them. If this is so, then Jesus is clearly speaking to those who are in Him. (John 15: 1-9) The warning is clear then to those in the Lord. One must REMAIN in the vine and produce fruit. This fruit is not the works of men but works of the Holy Spirit that does its good works through us. For all men and women can do good works with out the Holy Spirit. We all know that our works of good are but filthy ragges compaired to Gods GOOD WORKS. However, to do the GOOD WORKS that glorifiy God, can only come from God, for only God ALONE is GOOD. NOTE: Jesus telling us that apart from Him we can do nothing. (John 15: 5) In other words, it is God through His Holy Spirit working through us that will produce the fruit that will glorifiy God for only God can glorifiy Himself. Thus, God gets all the credit. God gives us the free will to allow the Holy Spirit to work with in us. If we choose not to allow the Holy Spirit to do its GOOD works through us, there is no growth, there is no fruit. Thus again Jesus warns us that such branches are thrown away and withers and are thrown into the fire and burn. Jesus uses the word remain ten times to us that are in Him. Note; Peter states it this way. "Therefore, dear friends since you already know this, BE ON GUARD so that you may not be carried away by error of lawless men and FALL from your secure position." (2Peter 3: 17) Peter makes it clear that one can Fall,or be carried away from ones reward that awaits, which is salvation. If one chooses to not continue in the truth that comes from the Holy Spirit which produces fruit. Note the words I use. "If one chooses" For no one can take that which God has given us not even Satan himself. For we have a power that is in us that keeps us from having this gift taken from us. However, if one does not grow towards maturity my means of the Holy Spirit on will begin to wither, become stagnet, not keeping secure the position of salvation that awaits us. Look at it this way. If one had told you that they had payed for a new car for you, however, you must travel some distance to obtain the gift (car). You also will be given things that will help you to reach your goal. You begin your journey towards your gift, but through hard times and weakness you do not reach out for the things that will help you complete your journey. Thus you give up. Note you give up. The Holy Spirit is our strenght. It is the power that keeps us walking towards the gift that awaits us. Therefore, again it is God that gets all the credit of our reaching the goal that awaits us. Thus who of us can boast, and say look what I have done. It is all about God and the things God does through us. We have nothing to say. All we can do is take the crown of glory that God gives us as we allow His Holy Spirit to work through us, and lay the crown at His feet. For it was God who through out time, from the beginning to the end of all ages. That Glorified Himself through men and women by the power of His Holy Spirit. Old or New Testement God gets all the credit. "For this very reason, make every effort to add to your Faith goodness (Fruit) and to goodness, knowledge; and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control perserverance; and to perserverance, godliness; and to godliness, brotherly kindness, love." (2Peter 1: 5-7) Note the growth in in these verses. "For if you posses these qualities in increasing measure (Note the growth) they will keep you from being inefective and unproductive. in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus the Christ." (2Peter 1: 8) Now here is Peters warnning. "But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, AND HAS FORGOTTEN THAT HE HAS BEEN CLEANSED FROM HIS PAST SINS." (2Peter 1: 9) Peter is telling us that if we choose to be complacent to our Lords atonement we have no growth, we have no faith in the power of the Holy Spirit to get us to the reward that awaits us. We have no love that only comes from God through His Holy Spirit, to express to our fellow brothers and sisters in the Lord. Again! It is all about God to Him all glory (credit) is given.
     
  15. epistemaniac

    epistemaniac New Member

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    reward does not automatically mean "salvation"....1 Corinthians 3:12-15 (ESV) 12 Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— 13 each one’s work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire. blessings,ken
     
  16. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    (epistemaniac;66722)
    that's what i thought [​IMG] it is clear that the bible itself does not say that the sin of blaspheming the Holy Spirit can only be committed by Christians, and we ought not try and add the traditions and doctrines of men, or our interpretations to the level of the scriptures themselves as if they are equal to the scriptures themselves.That is my only point. And I see by the non-response that it must be a good point. [​IMG]blessings,ken
    Well actrually it does say that if you read it carefully its quite clear the verses are in themself contradictory and can not be both things, men are forgiven all forms of blasphemy or you are forever damned it can not be both Matthew 12:31 - Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.Matthew 12:32 - And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.Mark 3:28 - Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:Mark 3:29 - But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.Now men can make up their own doctrines or you can hear the Word of God ALL blashpheme are forgiven ...but you litterally in danger of eternal damnation for blaspeme against the the holy ghost/spirit .. So what is this blaspeme against the Holy ghost/spirit ??....that it gets the same punishment as Satan eternal damnation that can not be repented for.... when Christ died for all sins ... 1. This totally underminds the Entire message of Christ dying for our sins How can a loving God condem one to eternal damnation with no hope of repentance for a form of blasphemy that is not fully explained? If it is commited in ignorance of scripture or understanding does one receive eternal damnation from God ???? 2. This is not a loving Gods actions So is the Bible a lie God a liar ?According to logabe and your theroy both 1 and 2 are correct
     
  17. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    (epistemaniac;66722)
    that's what i thought [​IMG] it is clear that the bible itself does not say that the sin of blaspheming the Holy Spirit can only be committed by Christians, and we ought not try and add the traditions and doctrines of men, or our interpretations to the level of the scriptures themselves as if they are equal to the scriptures themselves.That is my only point. And I see by the non-response that it must be a good point. [​IMG]blessings,ken
    Well actrually it does say that if you read it carefully its quite clear the verses are in themself contradictory and can not be both things, men are forgiven all forms of blasphemy or you are forever damned it can not be both Matthew 12:31 - Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.Matthew 12:32 - And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.Mark 3:28 - Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:Mark 3:29 - But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.Now men can make up their own doctrines or you can hear the Word of God ALL blashpheme are forgiven ...but you litterally in danger of eternal damnation for blaspeme against the the holy ghost/spirit .. So what is this blaspeme against the Holy ghost/spirit ??....that it gets the same punishment as Satan eternal damnation that can not be repented for.... when Christ died for all sins ... 1. This totally underminds the Entire message of Christ dying for our sins How can a loving God condem one to eternal damnation with no hope of repentance for a form of blasphemy that is not fully explained? If it is commited in ignorance of scripture or understanding does one receive eternal damnation from God ???? 2. This is not a loving Gods actions So is the Bible a lie God a liar ?According to logabe and your theroy both 1 and 2 are correctFigured this would happen. Epistemaniac and Logabe, I fear that you are putting yourselves in danger, because I know, you are making God a liar through your interpretations. God does not ever need your interpretions, but rather you need His interpretations. God explains His own word for you, but will you ever listen, or will you go set on your path thinking men's ways are God's ways, by following the traditions and philosophies of the world. That is up to you. You are warned.
     
  18. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    (Christina;66787)
    Well actrually it does say that if you read it carefully its quite clear the verses are in themself contradictory and can not be both things, men are forgiven all forms of blasphemy or you are forever damned it can not be both Matthew 12:31 - Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.Matthew 12:32 - And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.Mark 3:28 - Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:Mark 3:29 - But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.Now men can make up their own doctrines or you can hear the Word of God ALL blashpheme are forgiven ...but you litterally in danger of eternal damnation for blaspeme against the the holy ghost/spirit .. So what is this blaspeme against the Holy ghost/spirit ??....that it gets the same punishment as Satan eternal damnation that can not be repented for.... when Christ died for all sins ... 1. This totally underminds the Entire message of Christ dying for our sins How can a loving God condem one to eternal damnation with no hope of repentance for a form of blasphemy that is not fully explained? If it is commited in ignorance of scripture or understanding does one receive eternal damnation from God ???? 2. This is not a loving Gods actions So is the Bible a lie God a liar ?According to logabe and your theroy both 1 and 2 are correct
    So for those who want to know what Gods says about this unforgivable sin which totally undermines these mans ideas and the false doctrine of OSAS that is a lie of men :May I explain why the Bible is not a lie as some would hold to maintain their mans doctrine .....Matthew 12:31 - Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.Matthew 12:32 - And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.This is repeated at least twice here for emphasis If we look closely at the verses here they are sort of two sections and on the surface theyseem to be almost contradictory read the parts I put in green above. It clearly says ALL forms of blasphemy will be forgiven men .....ALL Forms ALL men will be forgivenSo what is this second part that says one is not only unforgiven but will never in the world or the next ever be forgiven ... That is the same sentence that was given Satan how can this be that if someone blasphemies the Holy spirit they receive the same sentence as Satan.... that's as bad as you can get... this is very serious in Gods eyesand he said it twice to make sure it was heard... Everyone saved has the Christ spirit in them yet every man is forgiven all form of Blasphemy. So what are we talking about?? Lets set a little foundation here first... lets understand this is a future event ..Second..No man has yet ever been judged not the Pharisees or Sadducee's not Judas no one and they wont be until the Great white throne Judgement which is after the millennium So what does blasphemy against the Holy Ghost/spirit meanWhen are we told of the Holy Ghost/Spirit coming on to men in an important event??The answer is on Pentecost Day.Acts tells of this Holy Ghost and what it is and what happens when it comes on you Act 2:2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. Act 2:3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. This was a great miracle and it only happens twice in the Word of God regardless of men say this only happens two times in scripture once on Pentecost day and once in Mark 13:11Mar 13:10 And the gospel must first be published among all nations. So this verse places us in the latter days because first the Gospel had to preached around the World this is our time setting Mar 13:11 But when they shall lead [you], and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost. This is a time in the future when the Elect are called up put on trial before Antichrist(Satan) do not premeditate what you will say the Holy Ghost will speak through you if you deny this with full knowledge of what you are doing to save your physical life you will lose it as you have Blasphemed the Holy Spirit/ Ghost. This is the unforgivable sin it can only be committed once and only by the Elect (called up ones) (For an better understanding one might think of this sin as something that would be equivalent/compared to ..IF.. the Apostles themselves having commited blasphemy against Christ after they were given full knowledge on Pentecost Day) PS I know some are just plain going to disagree that's fine, But please if you want to debate me, dont reply unless you have scripture to back you up, Not just with opinions.We've heard them all before, you cant disprove scripture with opinions. And logabe please do not give me another of your men sermons you want to disprove me give a scripture doing so .......... not a copy and paste sermon
     
  19. HammerStone

    HammerStone Well-Known Member Staff Member

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    what makes you think this sin can only be committed by believers?
    Mark 13:11
    But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.
    Playing that game, obviously this passage would mean absolutely nothing to a nonChristian. If we further play this little game and say that blasphemy is something committed by those not of the Christian faith, then what happens to people like Paul or others who might have said, done, or killed in the past? After all, this passage is generally the same in the ESV, KJV, NRSV, NIV or whatever.That completely ignores that the Holy Ghost is conditional.John 14:26
    But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
    This is the unforgivable sin, is it not?
     
  20. jtartar

    jtartar New Member

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    (RichardBurger;66591)
    Well I hate to stop this record but I believe once God has made a person His child and sealed that person with the Holy Spirit He will not turn His back on that child.Under the gospel of God's grace we are not saved by what we do. We are saved because of what Jesus (God) did on the cross. --- We are not saved because we are wonderful and working to try not to sin. We are saved because God knows we cannot keep from sinning and therefore made a way for sinners to be saved by believing in Him and His work of salavtion.I understand the general belief that a sinful person in the flesh is made sinless in the flesh over time. But I disagree with it. No one has ever been made sinless in the flesh. Many think they are being saved by what they do. That is a false theology. It is because of what God did on the cross, PERIOD.I believe this but many don't. I have faith, trust, confidence and hope in the work of God but many only have those things in their own work at salvation.Richard
    RichiardBurger, It is not what our opinions are that will save us, but what God's views on matters are. We have clear indications of what God's laws about salvation are. At 1Chron 28:9, we get a clear indication of how God see a person who turns away from Him. He will cast that person away forever!!! Even King Solomon!! Saul the first King of Israel was clearly in a favored postion with God, but because of disobedience he was cast away, 1Sam 10:1, 10:22,23. This principle is stated clearly in Eze 3:20, 18:24,26, 33:11,12,18. Consider what is said at 1Cor 10:1-6,11. All the Israelites were in a covenant relationship with God, His chosen people. Because of not continuing faithful God rejected them and let them die as a warning for us on whom the end of this system falls. The apostle Paul was clear in his warning at 2Cor 13:5, where he said to keep testing wheter you are in the faith. If you were always saved there would be not need for this warning. Consider also Pauls words at 1Cor 9:27. Paul siad that he pummeled his body to make sure that he was not disapproved somehow. If Paul was always saved this statement would be meaningless. Jude also gives us God's thoughts on the matter of always saved. Look at Jude 5,6. The angels who were in heaven were righteous and had the prospect of living forever, but they were condemned and will be thrown into the Lake of Fire along with Satan, who was also in a favored position with God, Rev 20:10,14,15, Eze 28:13-15. Notice also 2Pet 2:20-22. Is a sow that was bathed still clean?? Is aperson who returns to wickedness still clean in God's eyes??? What about 2Pet 3:17?? :study:
     
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