Once you join a church you will be accountable...

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Robert Gwin

Well-Known Member
Mar 19, 2021
6,888
1,587
113
69
Central Il
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
yes, Christ, God, is the Master. that much is clear.

but there is not a simple answer to the meaning of the parable; we should not expect there to be: it is the words and teaching of the infinite God. it is given in the way it is given because it is the perfect way: to add more to those who have, and to take away from those who do not have ((Matthew 13:13)). any brief interpretation is a shallow and superficial one; not that any such abridged understanding is untrue, but necessarily incomplete.

even the parable of the Sower, which Jesus gives us a key to interpreting, raises 1,000 more questions by hearing its interpretation -- questions which lead us all over the scripture looking for answers, each of which raise a thousand more. the study of scripture is never complete; of course it isn't - it's understanding of the infinite, immeasurable godhood. as He is without limit, so also is knowledge of Him.

these things are written for the same overarching purpose that is the spirit of all prophesy: testimony of Christ ((Revelation 19:10)). in order that we who believe may have life, and have it more abundantly ((John 10:10)) - because life is to know Him ((John 17:3)).

He is the Master ((John 13:13)) and He is also the gift ((John 3:16, John 4:10)); He is the one who gives the increase ((1 Corinthians 3:6-7)).
the evil one, in covetousness ((Joshua 7:21, 1 Peter 5:8, Isaiah 14:12-14)) seeks to steal, kill and destroy ((John 10:10, Job 1:10-11, John 8:44-47)) -- everything he says about the Master is a lie, and everything he does is evil, with wicked intent.

I see Post, when you disagreed with my interpretation of the parable, I gathered that you had a different understanding of it. I do understand your comment about not understanding it, on reason Jesus instructed us in illustrations was that we as his disciples would get the meaning. In fact, many times he spoke in illustrations even his disciples failed to grasp the meaning, so he had to interpret his words to them.

I believe that our take on it is correct, in line with our assignment we are to do our best at making disciples.
 
  • Like
Reactions: post

post

Well-Known Member
Jun 13, 2021
1,544
601
113
_
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I see Post, when you disagreed with my interpretation of the parable, I gathered that you had a different understanding of it. I do understand your comment about not understanding it, on reason Jesus instructed us in illustrations was that we as his disciples would get the meaning. In fact, many times he spoke in illustrations even his disciples failed to grasp the meaning, so he had to interpret his words to them.

I believe that our take on it is correct, in line with our assignment we are to do our best at making disciples.

yes i think we understand each other & aren't at odds --

and just to say it clearly, for the sake of anyone later reading this and trying to follow along:

i do not categorically disagree with the interpretation that the talent-weights represent knowledge of the Kingdom of God
i believe that it is an incomplete interpretation.
while not incorrect, it is only an element of the true meaning; a subset of the whole intention and understanding.
 

Ferris Bueller

Well-Known Member
Sep 9, 2020
9,979
4,552
113
Middle South
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
i do not categorically disagree with the interpretation that the talent-weights represent knowledge of the Kingdom of God
i believe that it is an incomplete interpretation.
while not incorrect, it is only an element of the true meaning; a subset of the whole intention and understanding.
All the things of God are presented to us in the form of God's word - grace, faith, forgiveness, salvation, etc. Is there something else that God gives that if we don't do anything with it we are cast out into the outer darkness rather than entering into the kingdom of God?
 
  • Like
Reactions: post

theefaith

Well-Known Member
Aug 25, 2020
20,070
1,354
113
63
Dallas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Believers are that priesthood! We minister to God through Jesus. How does that not make believers Christ's priesthood? Believers are one in spirit with Jesus.

there are three priesthood’s in scripture

the mosaic Levitical priesthood
The royal priesthood of the church
And the priesthood of Melchizedek
Only the apostles are of the order of Melchizedek as low priests with Christ as high priest
 

theefaith

Well-Known Member
Aug 25, 2020
20,070
1,354
113
63
Dallas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
"47Therefore I tell you, because her many sins have been forgiven, she has loved much. But he who has been forgiven little loves little.”" Luke 7:4

See it? There's that cause and effect relationship again. She loved much BECAUSE her sins have been forgiven. Righteous work results from being made righteous through forgiveness first. You do not make yourself righteous by doing work. That is literally the works gospel that Paul warned us about.

you still have it bassackwards
 

theefaith

Well-Known Member
Aug 25, 2020
20,070
1,354
113
63
Dallas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
But it does say "I know thy...faith" - Revelation 2:19

But anyway, there is praise and reward for faithful work. No one is going to argue with that.

"21His master replied, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Enter into the joy of your master!’" Matthew 25:21

What is being argued is the reward is not being made righteous (justification).

it does not say I know
Thy “faith alone “!!!

the itsy bitsy teeny weenie tiny simple one time act of faith and I’m saved!!!

I have always said faith and works and sacraments in Christ thru the power of the HS in God’s grace
 

Ferris Bueller

Well-Known Member
Sep 9, 2020
9,979
4,552
113
Middle South
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
it does not say I know
Thy “faith alone “!!!
Nobody's saying faith and works don't go together. The faith that makes a person righteous all by itself is in fact the faith that then works. It's a cause and effect thing. The point that you aren't acknowledging is faith justifies all by itself. Works show you to have that justification by faith apart from works. Even Luther understood and said that the faith that justifies all by itself is the faith that won't be by itself. So don't create an argument Protestants aren't making. Faith must work. But not for the purpose of making a person righteous. That is the argument. There is no argument being made that faith does not have to work.
 

Ferris Bueller

Well-Known Member
Sep 9, 2020
9,979
4,552
113
Middle South
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
you still have it bassackwards
Me and Jesus, then, friend. I showed you he is the one who said, "because her many sins have been forgiven, she has loved much." Luke 7:47. The cause and effect relationship between being forgiven (justification) and then living a righteous life is unmistakable.

The person who receives God's forgiveness but who then does not forgive others is not guilty of not earning God's forgiveness. He's guilty of trampling on God's forgiveness in unbelief. That is why the person who does not forgive will not be forgiven. It has nothing to do with earning God's forgiveness by first being forgiving to others. That's the very works gospel condemned in scripture.
 

theefaith

Well-Known Member
Aug 25, 2020
20,070
1,354
113
63
Dallas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Nobody's saying faith and works don't go together. The faith that makes a person righteous all by itself is in fact the faith that then works. It's a cause and effect thing. The point that you aren't acknowledging is faith justifies all by itself. Works show you to have that justification by faith apart from works. Even Luther understood and said that the faith that justifies all by itself is the faith that won't be by itself. So don't create an argument Protestants aren't making. Faith must work. But not for the purpose of making a person righteous. That is the argument. There is no argument being made that faith does not have to work.

And he was either mentally ill or out of his mind or an occultist Rosa crucian attacking Christ and his church

True Christians cannot listen to the errors of excommunicated heretics, but we listen faithfully to Christ, in the bosom of holy mother church, the only ark of salvation!
1 pet 3:20-21 matt 18:17 matt 16:18-19 matt 28:19-20 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-23
 

Ferris Bueller

Well-Known Member
Sep 9, 2020
9,979
4,552
113
Middle South
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
And he was either mentally ill or out of his mind or an occultist Rosa crucian attacking Christ and his church

True Christians cannot listen to the errors of excommunicated heretics, but we listen faithfully to Christ, in the bosom of holy mother church, the only ark of salvation!
1 pet 3:20-21 matt 18:17 matt 16:18-19 matt 28:19-20 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-23
Think what you want about Martin Luther. The point you're not addressing is Protestantism doesn't say faith doesn't have to be accompanied by works. In fact, it says faith will have works accompanying it, or else you really don't have faith. Which of course comes right from John's teachings in the Bible.

So, where you have to stay on point is the actual argument being made, which is the faith part of 'faith and works' all by itself is what makes a person righteous. The Catholics say, no, faith and works is what makes you righteous. They redefine 'faith' to mean 'faith and works' in order to make Paul's argument against works an argument against 'work only'. And so that makes it so they can say faith and works is what justifies, even though Paul plainly says faith without works justifies. The Catholic priesthood had to redefine faith to mean 'faith and works' in order to make Paul's argument mean exactly what he's says isn't true, that works make a person righteous.
 

theefaith

Well-Known Member
Aug 25, 2020
20,070
1,354
113
63
Dallas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Me and Jesus, then, friend. I showed you he is the one who said, "because her many sins have been forgiven, she has loved much." Luke 7:47. The cause and effect relationship between being forgiven (justification) and then living a righteous life is unmistakable.

The person who receives God's forgiveness but who then does not forgive others is not guilty of not earning God's forgiveness. He's guilty of trampling on God's forgiveness in unbelief. That is why the person who does not forgive will not be forgiven. It has nothing to do with earning God's forgiveness by first being forgiving to others. That's the very works gospel condemned in scripture.

no what is condemned is “works alone” apart from faith and grace

Lk 7:47 Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little.

her love is the cause of her forgiveness
 

Ferris Bueller

Well-Known Member
Sep 9, 2020
9,979
4,552
113
Middle South
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Lk 7:47 Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little.

her love is the cause of her forgiveness
If it was true that her love is the cause of her forgiveness then the last part of the verse would read like this...

'...but he who loveth little is little forgiven.'

But, as even you have to admit, it doesn't say that. It states the cause of little love to be little forgiveness - the very cause and effect relationship between forgiveness and works that I'm defending, not yours.

So, as you can see, the more accurate translation for the word 'for' in your translation is 'because'.
 

theefaith

Well-Known Member
Aug 25, 2020
20,070
1,354
113
63
Dallas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Think what you want about Martin Luther. The point you're not addressing is Protestantism doesn't say faith doesn't have to be accompanied by works. In fact, it says faith will have works accompanying it, or else you really don't have faith. Which of course comes right from John's teachings in the Bible.

So, where you have to stay on point is the actual argument being made, which is the faith part of 'faith and works' all by itself is what makes a person righteous. The Catholics say, no, faith and works is what makes you righteous. They redefine 'faith' to mean 'faith and works' in order to make Paul's argument against works an argument against 'work only'. And so that makes it so they can say faith and works is what justifies, even though Paul plainly says faith without works justifies. The Catholic priesthood had to redefine faith to mean 'faith and works' in order to make Paul's argument mean exactly what he's says isn't true, that works make a person righteous.

Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

1 cor 13:2 even all faith without charity avails nothing

1 cor 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

Rom 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
 

theefaith

Well-Known Member
Aug 25, 2020
20,070
1,354
113
63
Dallas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Paul's argument mean exactly what he's says isn't true, that works make a person righteous.[/QUOTE]


Lk 10:25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?

26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?

27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.

28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

Lk 18:20 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.

21 And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up.

22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.

Matthew 16:24
Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Matt 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

faith alone?????????
 

theefaith

Well-Known Member
Aug 25, 2020
20,070
1,354
113
63
Dallas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
If it was true that her love is the cause of her forgiveness then the last part of the verse would read like this...

'...but he who loveth little is little forgiven.'

But, as even you have to admit, it doesn't say that. It states the cause of little love to be little forgiveness - the very cause and effect relationship between forgiveness and works that I'm defending, not yours.

So, as you can see, the more accurate translation for the word 'for' in your translation is 'because'.

I quoted youre Protestant king James
Her love came first
 

Ferris Bueller

Well-Known Member
Sep 9, 2020
9,979
4,552
113
Middle South
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Lk 10:25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?

26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?

27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.

28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

Lk 18:20 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.

21 And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up.

22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.

Matthew 16:24
Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Matt 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

faith alone?????????
Friend, you haven't been paying attention.
'Faith alone' is James' argument. His argument has nothing to do with works MAKING you righteous.
Real faith has works accompanying it. That has nothing to do with works making you righteous.
 
  • Like
Reactions: post

theefaith

Well-Known Member
Aug 25, 2020
20,070
1,354
113
63
Dallas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Friend, you haven't been paying attention.
'Faith alone' is James' argument. His argument has nothing to do with works MAKING you righteous.

Paul’s / James’s
There can’t be two gospels or ten for that matter but one!

one God!
One church!
One faith! Eph 4:5 Jude 1:3

ONE GOSPEL!
 

Ferris Bueller

Well-Known Member
Sep 9, 2020
9,979
4,552
113
Middle South
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Paul’s / James’s
There can’t be two gospels or ten for that matter but one!

one God!
One church!
One faith! Eph 4:5 Jude 1:3

ONE GOSPEL!
There is no disagreement between Paul and James that would make it necessary for the Catholic church to redefine 'faith' as 'faith and works'. That's where the problem lies. There is a correct understanding of 'justified' that escapes the Catholic church. A correct understanding that reconciles James' teaching about justification with Paul's teaching about justification that doesn't change what either one of them say. Because this understanding escapes the Catholic church their attempt to reconcile James' and Paul's teachings ended up creating the very works gospel that Paul warned us about.
 

post

Well-Known Member
Jun 13, 2021
1,544
601
113
_
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
All the things of God are presented to us in the form of God's word - grace, faith, forgiveness, salvation, etc. Is there something else that God gives that if we don't do anything with it we are cast out into the outer darkness rather than entering into the kingdom of God?

If we do not forgive others, we will not be forgiven