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tigger 2

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Yachid (Continuing reply to #181 above)

A few trinitarians insist that not only does echad mean “plural oneness,” but that, if singleness were intended by the Bible writer, the Hebrew word yachid would have been used at Deut. 6:4.

Here is how it was presented to me by one trinitarian:

“The word for ‘one’ in this great declaration [Deut. 6:4] is not Yachid which is an absolute oneness but rather echad which means ‘united one.’ Had the Holy Spirit desired to state absolute mathematical oneness in this all-important declaration, He could have easily used the word yachid, couldn’t He?”

We have already seen the absolute falsity of the “echad-means-’plural-oneness’” idea. But what about yachid? Did the Bible writers really use it whenever they meant “absolute mathematical oneness”? We have already seen that they really used echad for “absolute mathematical oneness,” and a good concordance will show they did this consistently—many hundreds of times!

Yachid, on the other hand, is only used about 12 times in the entire Bible and then only in a narrow, specific sense.

The Old Testament language authority, Gesenius, tells us that yachid is used in three very specialized ways: (1) “only” but primarily in the sense of “only begotten”! - Gen. 22:2, 12, 16; Jer. 6:26; and Zech. 12:10. (2) “solitary” but with the connotation of “forsaken” or “wretched” ! - Ps. 25:16; 68:6. (3) As yachidah (feminine form) meaning “only one” as something most dear and used “poet[ically] for ‘life’ - Ps. 22:20; 35:17.” - p. 345 b.

We find yachid is never used to describe God anywhere in the entire Bible! But it is used to describe Isaac in his prefigured representation of the Messiah (and ‘only-begotten’): Gen. 22:2, 12, 16. It is also used at Judges 11:34 for an only-begotten child. The ancient Greek Septuagint translates yachid at Judges 11:34 as monogenes (“only-begotten”): the same NT Greek word repeatedly used to describe Christ (even in his pre-human heavenly existence - 1 John 4:9). Monogenes, however, like the Hebrew yachid, is never used to describe the only true God, Jehovah (who is the Father alone).

So, if Jehovah were to describe himself as “forsaken” or “wretched,” or were speaking poetically about his “dear life,” or were describing himself as the “only-begotten son” (which he never does anywhere in the Bible!), then he might have used yachid.

But since he was describing his “mathematical oneness” at Deut. 6:4, he properly used echad!

As we pointed out at the beginning, there are Hebrew words that mean “plural oneness,” but echad is not one of them. As another example, notice the clear meaning of echad as “absolute mathematical oneness” at Gen. 42:11 where the sons of Jacob say, “we are all one [echad] man’s sons.” They certainly weren’t saying “we are all sons of different men who together make up a ‘plural oneness’ man.”! Instead, the inspired Bible writer wrote that they were all sons of one [echad not yachid] single, solitary man.

We see the same thing at Malachi 2:10 even though we find two different interpretations by trinitarian translators.

Some translate it:

“have we not all one [echad] father? Has not one [echad] God created us?” - RSV.

The meaning of this rendering is that everyone has a single person as his earthly father and, by comparison, we also all have a single [echad] person as our God and Creator in heaven.

Other trinitarian scholars translate Malachi 2:10 as:

“Have we not all the one Father? Has not the one God created us?” - NAB (1970 and 1991).

“Is there not one Father of us all? Did not one God create us?” - NJB.

“Have we not all one Father? Did not one God create us?” - JB.

“Have we not all one Father? Has not one God created us?” - NKJV.

“Have we not all one Father? Has not one God created us?” - The Amplified Bible.

“Is there not one Father to us all? Has not one God created us?” - MKJV, Green.

“Don’t all of us have one Father? Hasn’t one God created us?” - In the Language of Today, Beck.

“Do we not all have one Father? Has not one God made us?” - NLV.

We clearly see in these trinitarian translations that the common Hebrew use of parallelisms was intended by the inspired Bible writers. That is, the first half of the verse is differently worded but parallel in meaning with the second half. Therefore, the first half refers to God just as the second half does, so the translator has capitalized “Father” to make such an interpretation unmistakeable. The meaning in this interpretation, then, is:

“We all have one [echad] Father (the only person who is God),” and, in parallel meaning,

“We all have one [echad] Creator (a single person as God).” - Compare 1 Cor. 8:6; Eph. 4:6.

No matter which interpretation you prefer, it is clear that the comparison with (or parallel with) a single individual father (whether we interpret it as the single male human parent or the single person, God the Father), who is called “one [echad] father/Father,” is a single individual who is called “one [echad] God”! The comparison (or parallel) would be senseless if echad meant one single person for “father/Father” (as it must) in its first half and “plural oneness” persons for “God” (as it clearly doesn’t) in its second half!

The inspired Bible writers at Gen. 42:11, Malachi 2:10, and Deut. 6:4 could easily have used a word that really means “united one” - but they didn’t! The inspired Bible writer at Deut. 6:4 could also have easily said (and definitely should have said if it were true) that “God is three persons who together make up the one God” or even just “the one God is three persons,” but he didn’t, and neither did any other Bible writer! He should also have used yachid repeatedly in the Bible for God if Jehovah is ever to be understood as being Jesus (“the only-begotten”), but no Bible writer describes Jehovah that way, ever!

A footnote for Deut. 6:4 in the very trinitarian The New American Bible, St. Joseph ed., 1970, says:

“this passage contains the basic principle of the whole Mosaic law, the keynote of the Book of Deuteronomy: since the Lord [Jehovah] alone is God, we must love him with an undivided heart. Christ cited these words as ‘the greatest and the first commandment,’ embracing in itself the whole law of God (Mt 22:37 and parallels [especially see Mark 12:28-34]).”

As the ASV renders it in a footnote for Deut. 6:4 - “Jehovah is our God; Jehovah is one”. Yes, the great distinction between Israel and all the nations around them was that they worshiped only one [“absolute mathematical oneness”] person as God (as they always have, and as they still do today - see the ISRAEL study).

The only honest interpretations of “this great declaration” of Deut. 6:4 are “Jehovah our God is only one [echad] person” or “Jehovah our God is only one God”!

Judging by the literal meanings of both the Hebrew Scriptures and the Greek (NT and Septuagint OT) Scriptures Deut. 6:4 actually says: “Hear Israel, Jehovah the God of us, Jehovah is one” (Sept. Greek) and “Jehovah our God, Jehovah [is] one” (Hebrew - Interlinear Bible). But in any case echad clearly refers to a single, solitary [absolute mathematical oneness] being, not a “multiple oneness”!

So even the very trinitarian literal translation, the New King James Version, (like the very trinitarian ETRV paraphrase Bible) translates echad at Deut. 6:4 correctly as: “Hear, O Israel: The LORD [Jehovah] our God, the LORD [Jehovah] is one!”

The meaning is clear. It is expressed perhaps even more clearly in the popular trinitarian paraphrase Bible, The Living Bible: “Jehovah is our God, Jehovah alone.”
 
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DavidB

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I was just thinking of leaving the Bible Study Forum. I think it might be more appropriate to post on the Debate Forum.

Thanks for our support!
I don’t think you are the one turning a Bible discussion into a debate. I have only been looking at this forum for a couple weeks but I can already see who is trying to show Christian peacefulness and who likes to throw insults. Arrogance and ignorance are a terrible combination but are frequent partners.
 

michaelvpardo

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If spirituality means throwing logic and the meaning of everyday words to the four winds, then yes, I do have a distinct lack of spirituality.

BTW, I thought Jesus was given the power of judgment of who is lost and who isn't. I didn't realize there were others, such as yourself, given the same privilege. I guess we need to revise John 5:22.

John 5:22,

for neither does the Father judge any one, but has given all judgment to the Son;
Here's my suggestion:

John 5:22,

for neither does the Father judge any one, but has given all judgment to the Son and MichaelyPardo;
Just kidding around. :)

But seriously,

1 Cor 4:3-4,

3 But for me it is the very smallest matter that I be examined of you or of man's day. Nor do I even examine myself.​

4 For I am conscious of nothing in myself; but I am not justified by this: but he that examines me is the Lord.
God bless
You can know Him and understand the mind of God, but your choice is to cling to your own understanding.
Scripture is full of "logical contradictions" and for a reason, so that no man may see the truth except by the Spirit of Truth.

Your mind is carnal and it isn't even possible for you to "see" the spiritual. All Scripture is reconciled to itself by Him, not simply by reason, or the scholars of Israel would not have condemned the Lord of glory.
 

Rich R

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You can know Him and understand the mind of God, but your choice is to cling to your own understanding.
Scripture is full of "logical contradictions" and for a reason, so that no man may see the truth except by the Spirit of Truth.

Your mind is carnal and it isn't even possible for you to "see" the spiritual. All Scripture is reconciled to itself by Him, not simply by reason, or the scholars of Israel would not have condemned the Lord of glory.
God give all born again believers holy spirit, Christ in them (Col 1:27).

I totally disagree with the scriptures not being logical. They are actually the epitome of logic. Maybe you've just never considered that. I know a lot are satisfied to take things by faith, never thinking the faith is akin to trust. We only trust things we understand and are familiar with. Otherwise we can find ourselves in la-la land.
 

michaelvpardo

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God give all born again believers holy spirit, Christ in them (Col 1:27).

I totally disagree with the scriptures not being logical. They are actually the epitome of logic. Maybe you've just never considered that. I know a lot are satisfied to take things by faith, never thinking the faith is akin to trust. We only trust things we understand and are familiar with. Otherwise we can find ourselves in la-la land.
If they were logical, I would've understood them as a child and it wouldn't have been necessary to lift the veil. You know what you've read about from scholars, I know what the Holy Spirit has taught me personally. You grasp what you can reason from carnally, I grasp what I reason with the mind of christ. I stand on the rock, solid ground. Jesus is Lord, God incarnate.

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory.
1 Timothy 3:16
 

farouk

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If they were logical, I would've understood them as a child and it wouldn't have been necessary to lift the veil. You know what you've read about from scholars, I know what the Holy Spirit has taught me personally. You grasp what you can reason from carnally, I grasp what I reason with the mind of christ. I stand on the rock, solid ground. Jesus is Lord, God incarnate.

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory.
1 Timothy 3:16
@michaelvpardo God in Three Persons is eminently Biblical; good simply to follow the witness of Scripture, right?
 
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Rich R

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If they were logical, I would've understood them as a child and it wouldn't have been necessary to lift the veil. You know what you've read about from scholars, I know what the Holy Spirit has taught me personally. You grasp what you can reason from carnally, I grasp what I reason with the mind of christ. I stand on the rock, solid ground. Jesus is Lord, God incarnate.

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory.
1 Timothy 3:16
Oh, my. What then are we to do with:

1 Cor 8:6,

But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.
Timothy seems to be a glaring contradiction with Corinthians. Yikes! Any ideas on how to solve it?
 

farouk

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Oh, my. What then are we to do with:

1 Cor 8:6,

But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.
Timothy seems to be a glaring contradiction with Corinthians. Yikes! Any ideas on how to solve it?
Sir, Best just to accept the witness of Scripture, and not look for supposed contradictions.
 
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michaelvpardo

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@michaelvpardo God in Three Persons is eminently Biblical; good simply to follow the witness of Scripture, right?
Absolutely. My "conversion experience " was very dramatic but in my old age I'm hesitant to even trust my senses.

My faith is not based upon my experience as experience can be deceiving, but upon the sure and tested word of God.

I do not rationalize scripture as carnal minds can only do, but reason with God through His Spirit within me. You can't reason with some impersonal force. Try standing on a railroad track and reasoning with a moving train! (Don't really try that. It isn't likely to end well.)

“Come now, and let us reason together,” Says the Lord, “Though your sins are like scarlet, They shall be as white as snow; Though they are red like crimson, They shall be as wool. Isaiah 1:18
 

michaelvpardo

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Oh, my. What then are we to do with:

1 Cor 8:6,

But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.
Timothy seems to be a glaring contradiction with Corinthians. Yikes! Any ideas on how to solve it?
You only see contradictions because your mind is carnal, but we have the mind of Christ.

We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error. 1 John 4:6
 

farouk

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Absolutely. My "conversion experience " was very dramatic but in my old age I'm hesitant to even trust my senses.

My faith is not based upon my experience as experience can be deceiving, but upon the sure and tested word of God.

I do not rationalize scripture as carnal minds can only do, but reason with God through His Spirit within me. You can't reason with some impersonal force. Try standing on a railroad track and reasoning with a moving train! (Don't really try that. It isn't likely to end well.)

“Come now, and let us reason together,” Says the Lord, “Though your sins are like scarlet, They shall be as white as snow; Though they are red like crimson, They shall be as wool. Isaiah 1:18
@michaelvpardo Romans 8.16: "The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God". Always Scripture must be the yardstick, naturally.
 
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Rich R

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Sir, Best just to accept the witness of Scripture, and not look for supposed contradictions.
How is one verse saying only the Father is God and another seeming to say God the Son (which phrase is not actually in the Bible, but we'll go with it for now) is also God not a contradiction?

Assuming you now see the contradiction, perhaps it could be cleared up by re-examining the part about God the Son. Since the phrase is not actually in the Bible, I'm thinking that would clear up the contradiction. The Father is the one God whereas Jesus is the Son of God, while understanding a son is a distinctly different person than his father. What do you think?
 

Rich R

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You only see contradictions because your mind is carnal, but we have the mind of Christ.

We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error. 1 John 4:6
There is no point in telling me my mind is carnal, that I, as a born again Christian, do not have the mind of Christ. It's just a knee jerk reaction because I said something you disagree with. I know you can do better. Let's stick with the scriptures and leave out the accusations.

How is one verse saying only the Father is God and another seeming to say God the Son (which phrase is not actually in the Bible, but we'll go with it for now) is also God not a contradiction?

Please, think before you write.
 

farouk

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How is one verse saying only the Father is God and another seeming to say God the Son (which phrase is not actually in the Bible, but we'll go with it for now) is also God not a contradiction?

Assuming you now see the contradiction, perhaps it could be cleared up by re-examining the part about God the Son. Since the phrase is not actually in the Bible, I'm thinking that would clear up the contradiction. The Father is the one God whereas Jesus is the Son of God, while understanding a son is a distinctly different person than his father. What do you think?
God in Three Persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit, is eminently Biblical. There are so many references.
 

Rich R

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God in Three Persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit, is eminently Biblical. There are so many references.
Well, I was hoping to get a specific answer as to why Timothy and Corinthians don't contradict when one is taken to say the Son and the Father are both God whereas the other clearly says only the Father is God. But, alas, all I get is extra-Biblical assertions.

I guess Trinitarians don't care about 1 Corinthians 8:6. They either ignore it or change it to conform to preconceived ideas. I think they mostly just ignore it since it'd take some mighty fine word twisting to change, "to us there is but One God, the Father..." into meaning the the so-called God the Son is also God. I say "so-called" because the phrase "God the Son" is noticeably missing in the actual scriptures. Apparently, along with ignoring 1 Corinthians 8:6, Trinitarians have no trouble introducing words into the scriptures that God never used.
 

michaelvpardo

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There is no point in telling me my mind is carnal, that I, as a born again Christian, do not have the mind of Christ. It's just a knee jerk reaction because I said something you disagree with. I know you can do better. Let's stick with the scriptures and leave out the accusations.

How is one verse saying only the Father is God and another seeming to say God the Son (which phrase is not actually in the Bible, but we'll go with it for now) is also God not a contradiction?

Please, think before you write.
I've never heard your confession and since your teaching is entirely contrary to sound doctrine, I have no reason to believe that you were ever born again.
Who is Jesus Christ?
The answer to this question identifies the born again in Christ Jesus. No man's testimony of himself bears any weight. This is why Jesus didn't go about saying simply "I am God" though it remains true. If you were born again, you'd have the witness of Christ.

So, who is Jesus called the Christ?
 

DavidB

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Well, I was hoping to get a specific answer as to why Timothy and Corinthians don't contradict when one is taken to say the Son and the Father are both God whereas the other clearly says only the Father is God. But, alas, all I get is extra-Biblical assertions.

I guess Trinitarians don't care about 1 Corinthians 8:6. They either ignore it or change it to conform to preconceived ideas. I think they mostly just ignore it since it'd take some mighty fine word twisting to change, "to us there is but One God, the Father..." into meaning the the so-called God the Son is also God. I say "so-called" because the phrase "God the Son" is noticeably missing in the actual scriptures. Apparently, along with ignoring 1 Corinthians 8:6, Trinitarians have no trouble introducing words into the scriptures that God never used.
I don’t think it is that they don’t care about 1 Corinthians 8:6 or 1 Corinthians 11:3 or 1 Corinthians 15:27, 28 or the simple relationship of a Father and Son. I think there is another reason.

2 Corinthians 4:3, 4
“If, in fact, the good news we declare is veiled, it is veiled among those who are perishing, among whom the god of this system of things has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, so that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through.”

If someone can’t even see that there is at least a contradiction, a question that needs to be examined, that is blindness. Satan has prevented them from seeing that the Christ is, not God, but the image of God. Anyone, in their view, who does see the contradiction is antichrist. The Devil is the master deceiver.
 

michaelvpardo

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I don’t think it is that they don’t care about 1 Corinthians 8:6 or 1 Corinthians 11:3 or 1 Corinthians 15:27, 28 or the simple relationship of a Father and Son. I think there is another reason.

2 Corinthians 4:3, 4
“If, in fact, the good news we declare is veiled, it is veiled among those who are perishing, among whom the god of this system of things has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, so that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through.”

If someone can’t even see that there is at least a contradiction, a question that needs to be examined, that is blindness. Satan has prevented them from seeing that the Christ is, not God, but the image of God. Anyone, in their view, who does see the contradiction is antichrist.
The fact that you see contradictions in sound doctrine is proof that you don't know Him and remain entirely carnal in your thinking.
 
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Rich R

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I don’t think it is that they don’t care about 1 Corinthians 8:6 or 1 Corinthians 11:3 or 1 Corinthians 15:27, 28 or the simple relationship of a Father and Son. I think there is another reason.

2 Corinthians 4:3, 4
“If, in fact, the good news we declare is veiled, it is veiled among those who are perishing, among whom the god of this system of things has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, so that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through.”

If someone can’t even see that there is at least a contradiction, a question that needs to be examined, that is blindness. Satan has prevented them from seeing that the Christ is, not God, but the image of God. Anyone, in their view, who does see the contradiction is antichrist. The Devil is the master deceiver.
You know what they say about an oft repeated lie; it becomes the truth. Two thousand years of a lie is hard to shake. I understand that. But, geez, when presented with clear cut evidence that totally goes against tradition ought to at least cause one to pause and reconsider.

Here's the big problem with tradition:

Matt 15:6,

...Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.
That doesn't sound good to me.

God bless
 
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