One and Triune God.

[BreadOfLife]

1 John 5:7 made its first appearance in the Septuagint. It ONLY appears in Greek texts, not at all in Semitic texts.

Matthew 28:19 suffers from the same problem. Semitic texts have a different wording.

Nothing else you reference demands a third person. In fact, most bolster my position.

And, isn't your claim that "God is 3 persons?" That defeats your own argument about pagan deities.

You neglected to include what this "third state" of God is. The Holy Spirit is a Spirit, Jesus is flesh and the Father is...what?

Soooo - I give you literally DOZENS of Scripture verses as evidence for the Triune Godhead - and YOU question THREE of them??
You still got a LOT of spalinin' to do here . . .

Your statement above in RED about 1 John 5:7 is nonsense because the bulk of the entire New Testament wasa written in Koine Greek and NOT Hebrew. The Septuagint is a Greek translatio0n of the OLD Testament.

As to your claim that the rest of Scriptural evidence that I presented "bolsters" your position against the Trinity - HOW so?

Finally, with regards to your question - God is not a "state" - first, second OR third.
He is ALWAYS all 3 Persons. To imply thar He is divided into "states" is Modalism, which is a heresy.

I'll make it easy on you by giving you just a couple of verses that show the Trinity - that the ONE God is manoifested in THREE Persons. Then, YOU can give me your response . . .

The Father is GOD
Psalm 68:5
Father of the fatherless and protector of widows is GOD in his holy habitation.

The Son is GOD
John 20:28
And Thomas answered and said unto him [Jesus], “My Lord and my GOD!”

The Holy Spirit is GOD
Acts 5:3-4
But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the price of the land for yourself? "While it remained, was it not your own? And after it was sold, was it not in your own control? Why have you conceived this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to GOD."

 

[Happy Trails]

NONE of them suggest a three-person deity, or anything like it.

The ones I eliminated are well-documented as not being part of any early manuscripts.

 

[Happy Trails]

Paul was NEVER rude at all! You just don't read all Scripture except those you want to post in post #28 [which are true] to suite your agenda and to prove the Holy Spirit is NOT the third person in the Godhead.

Well, read and believe!.... 2 Corinthians 13:14:
The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen

Is the above Scripture true or false?

To God Be The Glory

Of course, it's true. My earthly father is also my baseball coach and my friend. He is not 3 different people.

God is a spirit. God is holy. He is the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit is my Father.

He says he is singular.

 

[Rich R]

Matt. 28:19 shows the three separate beings: the father, the son, and the holy spirit are at the same time considered singular. Before you can understand later writings about baptism, you have to accept this basic fact first. If/when you do, we can then continue our discussion.

If Matthew 28:19 was actually in the original text (virtually all Bible scholars say it was forged), it still wouldn't make the three people mentioned somehow actually one person. Such an idea has to be introduced from sources outside of the scriptures.

Why does naming three people somehow make them one?

Dan 2:49,

Then Daniel requested of the king, and he set Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, over the affairs of the province of Babylon: but Daniel [sat] in the gate of the king.
​

Are Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego one person? What's the difference?

Matthew 28:19 is not a good verse to prove the Trinity. I don't know which ones are, but definitely not this one.

​

 

[Rich R]

To better help you understand, consider there exists three separate states of water: solid, liquid, and gas, each serving a particular role, yet they all are water, and thus are called ''water."

Very true; water can be liquid, ice, or steam, but certainly not all at the same time. Sometimes it's water, sometimes it's ice, and sometimes it's steam. If we use this analogy, we would be forced to conclude that sometimes God is Jesus, sometimes God is the Father, and sometimes God is the Holy Spirit. But, like the analogous water, he can't be all three at the same time.

There is also the argument that Bob is Bob, that he is the husband of his wife and the father of his son, thus proving the trinity. Very well. But if we want to make a comparison between Bob and the trinity, we would actually have to say Bob is Bob, Bob is his wife, and Bob is his son. I'll go with Bob being Bob, but the rest is nonsense.

Sorry but recognizing the three state of water does nothing to help me understand the trinity.

God bless

 

[Rich R]

I have three names but I am one person. AND if someone was to be baptised in the name of Michael Jacob Jackson they would be baptised in the name of ONE person.

Yes, but they were supposedly baptized in the name of the Father, the son, and the Holy Spirit. Note the commas missing in Michael Jacob Jackson. Commas are small things that make a big difference (kinda like a jot or a tittle). No need to abandon normal language just because it's the Bible. There is no such person as Father Jesus Holy Ghost in the Bible. There is the Father, the Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. There's a difference there I trust you can see.

Besides, it's well documented that Matthew 28:19 was not in the original texts. It's forged. But if Jesus did tell the Apostles to do that it would appear they didn't get the message, given that three the part formula is never found anywhere else in the Bible. I think you will find the Apostles always baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.

May heaven help those who deny the deity of Jesus, they certainly make their disbelief very clear with their strident denials and protestations that are broadcast abroad in the ether..

Yes Jesus had deity. If that actually makes him God, what do we do with 2 Peter 1:4?

2 Pet 1:4,

through which he has given to us the greatest and precious promises, that through these ye may become partakers of [the] divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.​

You and I both have a divine nature (Christ in us - Col 1:27), but I don't claim to be God and I'm sure neither do you. Apparently having a diving nature does not make someone God. Gotta dig deeper to get the meaning.

God bless

 

[JunChosen]

Were 3000 people NOT Baptized?
If they were - as the text clearly implies - then they were Baptized with WATER and the SPIRIT

My explanation is below.

You are confused.

Really? No! I understand Acts 1:8 perfectly

Now - please explain what I got "wrong" about the 3000 people being Baptized on Pentecost, per Acts 2:41,

They were NOT baptized with water at all, or it will take more than a day to baptize 3000 people

This verse is about the promise that the Holy Spirit descend upon His disciples - which it DID on the day of Pentecost.

Yes! But for what purpose?

Now - please explain what I got "wrong" about the 3000 people being Baptized on Pentecost, per Acts 2:41, whioch states explicitly:
Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.

You were assuming the 3000 were baptized with water.

To get the context of the event of Pentecost, you must read John 3:5-10 to understand the meaning of "be born of water and of the Spirit." I assure you the formula is not h2o! Are you a Nicodemus and master of your denomination, and not know these things?

To God Be The Glory

 

[BreadOfLife]

My explanation is below.
Really? No! I understand Acts 1:8 perfectly
They were NOT baptized with water at all, or it will take more than a day to baptize 3000 people
Yes! But for what purpose?
You were assuming the 3000 were baptized with water.
To get the context of the event of Pentecost, you must read John 3:5-10 to understand the meaning of "be born of water and of the Spirit." I assure you the formula is not h2o! Are you a Nicodemus and master of your denomination, and not know these things?
To God Be The Glory

WRONG.

As I ponted out in my last post - the weight of Scrpture is against you, The following verses ALL point to WATER Baptism and the subsequent indwelling of the Holy Spirit - John 3:5, Acts 2:38, Acts 8:36-38, Acts 10:47, Pet. 3:21.

This moronic NON-Christian idea of "dry Baptism" is an invention of MEN after the 16th century - and yet another tragic consequesce of the confusion brought on by of the Protestant Revolt. After you've read the above-referenced verses of Scripture - explain the Didache (Teachings of the Twelve Apostles), whis is pone of the oldest Chgurch documents, written while the Apostles were STILL alive:

The Didaches - Chapter 7. Concerning Baptism
And concerning baptism, baptize this way: Having first said all these things, baptize into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living WATER. But if you have not living WATER, baptize into other WATER; and if you can not in cold, in warm. But if you have not either, pour out WATER thrice upon the head into the name of Father and Son and Holy Spirit.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Of course, it's true. My earthly father is also my baseball coach and my friend. He is not 3 different people.
God is a spirit. God is holy. He is the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit is my Father.
He says he is singular.

The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father (John 14:26, John 15:26) AND from the Son (John 20:22-23) - therefore, He is NOT the Father.

Explain.

 

[BreadOfLife]

NONE of them suggest a three-person deity, or anything like it.
The ones I eliminated are well-documented as not being part of any early manuscripts.

You addressed only THREE verses - and there were holes in your "explanations".
I gave you a few DOZEN verses.

I even whitteled it down to THREE verses - and you're STILL running . . .

 

[JunChosen]

To those who do NOT believe in the deity of Jesus, I leave you with these Scripture passages:

Exodus 1:13-15:
13) And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name/ What shall I say unto them?
14) And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
15) And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.

Do you believe the scriptures above to be true? If you do than believe also the following Scripture passages below.

Deuteronomy 32:39-40:
39) See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.
40) For I lift up my hand to heaven, and say, I live for ever.

John 8:24:
I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if you believe NOT that I AM HE [the great I AM], ye shall die in your sins.

To God Be The Glory

 

[Rich R]

To those who do NOT believe in the deity of Jesus, I leave you with these Scripture passages:

Exodus 1:13-15:
13) And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name/ What shall I say unto them?
14) And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
15) And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.

Do you believe the scriptures above to be true? If you do than believe also the following Scripture passages below.

Deuteronomy 32:39-40:
39) See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.
40) For I lift up my hand to heaven, and say, I live for ever.

John 8:24:
I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if you believe NOT that I AM HE [the great I AM], ye shall die in your sins.

To God Be The Glory

Those verses are all true. How about the following verses:

John 20:17,

Jesus saith to her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended unto the Father: but go unto my brethren, and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.
​

1 Pet 1:3,

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,​

Assuming you believe these verses, who is God's Father and God? It says Jesus (supposedly God also) had both a Father and God. I could give you 4 more verses that plainly declare Jesus had a Father and a God. Revelation 3:12 says Jesus had a God 4 times. God having a God just doesn't ring true to me.

Matt 4:1,

Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.​

Heb 2:18,

For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.​

James 1:13 says God can't be tempted. I wish someone would make up their minds! Can God be tempted or not? What a conundrum. Wait...if we just say Jesus is not God the problem vanishes.

• Fact 1: Jesus can be tempted
• Fact 2: God can not be tempted
• Conclusion: Jesus is God?????????????? Does not compute!

Heb 4:15,

For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as [we are, yet] without sin.​

Well, if Jesus is God, this verse has to go. I for one sure don't feel like a god-man when I'm tempted. I mean, how in the world could it be said Jesus was tempted just like me if he were God or a god-man? This verse has no place in the Trinity doctrine. On the other hand, we could get rid of the trinity doctrine and everything would fit like a hand in a glove.

One more. Do you believe this one?

1 Cor 11:3,

But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman [is] the man; and the head of Christ [is] God.​

Do you believe the head of Christ (supposedly God) is God? That's a real imagination twister.

I know there are some verses that could be taken as a trinity. I also know there are oodles more than the ones above that all make it quite impossible for Jesus to be God. As you insinuated, we must accept all scripture. I've looked at this issue for many years. I was Trinitarion at one time even though I knew deep down it didn't make any sense. I am convinced that it is much easier to make the few unclear verses fit with the many clear verses. Honestly, most verses used to prove the Trinity say nothing of the sort. Matthew 28:19 is a good example.

Matt 28:19,

Go [therefore] and make disciples of all the nations, baptising them to the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit;
​

What is it about this verse that justifies saying the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are one person? In any normal grammatical construction this would be seen as three people? Why is the norm abandoned in Matthew? Having said that, the truth is that Matthew 28:19 was added to the original. That is well known. Even if it was there, why didn't the Apostles follow through instead of baptizing in the name of Jesus, period. You won't find an account that says the baptized according to the forgery in Matthwe 28:19.

Another one that is used that actually says nothing about the trinity:

Col 1:15,

who is image of the invisible God, firstborn of all creation;
​

Note it does not say, "...who is God..." It says he is the image of God. Remember whose image was on the coin one of the Apostles showed Jesus? Caesars. So are we to say the coin actually IS Caesar? I'm thinking not. So why should Jesus, the image of God, actually be God? Why do we break away from the normal use of words, grammar, and logic?

Thanks for your ear my brother! God bless

 

[Happy Trails]

The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father (John 14:26, John 15:26) AND from the Son (John 20:22-23) - therefore, He is NOT the Father.

Explain.

From where else could anything proceed? The box you put your God in is very limited.

 

[Happy Trails]

You addressed only THREE verses - and there were holes in your "explanations".
I gave you a few DOZEN verses.

I even whitteled it down to THREE verses - and you're STILL running . . .

You think that my life is built around responding to you? Sorry, Charlie.

Saying there are holes without explaining the holes is meaningless.

 

[Heart2Soul]

"He is the essence of all things...the seed that was planted in Mary came from His essence," is just Christianese slogans. It has no real meaning. Is "essence" the third state?

You are right that the Law establishes how we are to live. It's too bad that Christianity does its best to ignore it.

Everything that exists came from His spoken word....His breath of life....it was born of Him. All creation has His DNA in them. Out of nothing of substance (tangible) was anything created (born)...it was of His spirit....coming from within His being and when He spoke it from His mouth all things formed specifically to His Will....God isn't a fish yet He created fish out of His Will and His Spirit.
In other words, he didn't need fish DNA to create a fish...He was and is the DNA of all things created by Him.

 

[Cooper]

Yes, but they were supposedly baptized in the name of the Father, the son, and the Holy Spirit. Note the commas missing in Michael Jacob Jackson. Commas are small things that make a big difference (kinda like a jot or a tittle). No need to abandon normal language just because it's the Bible. There is no such person as Father Jesus Holy Ghost in the Bible. There is the Father, the Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. There's a difference there I trust you can see.

Besides, it's well documented that Matthew 28:19 was not in the original texts. It's forged. But if Jesus did tell the Apostles to do that it would appear they didn't get the message, given that three the part formula is never found anywhere else in the Bible. I think you will find the Apostles always baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.


Yes Jesus had deity. If that actually makes him God, what do we do with 2 Peter 1:4?

2 Pet 1:4,

through which he has given to us the greatest and precious promises, that through these ye may become partakers of [the] divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.​

You and I both have a divine nature (Christ in us - Col 1:27), but I don't claim to be God and I'm sure neither do you. Apparently having a diving nature does not make someone God. Gotta dig deeper to get the meaning.

God bless

I have news for you, Jesus is Father Son and Holy Spirit, the one omnipresent God. His presence on earth is proof of His omnipresence. No commas.

 

[Cooper]

Very true; water can be liquid, ice, or steam, but certainly not all at the same time. Sometimes it's water, sometimes it's ice, and sometimes it's steam. If we use this analogy, we would be forced to conclude that sometimes God is Jesus, sometimes God is the Father, and sometimes God is the Holy Spirit. But, like the analogous water, he can't be all three at the same time.

There is also the argument that Bob is Bob, that he is the husband of his wife and the father of his son, thus proving the trinity. Very well. But if we want to make a comparison between Bob and the trinity, we would actually have to say Bob is Bob, Bob is his wife, and Bob is his son. I'll go with Bob being Bob, but the rest is nonsense.

Sorry but recognizing the three state of water does nothing to help me understand the trinity.

God bless

You are wanting to tell everyone that roots, trunk, and branches are not one tree. commas or no commas, it makes no difference.

 

[Episkopos]

"πορευθέντες οὖν μαθητεύσατε πάντα τὰ ἔθνη, βαπτίζοντες (baptize) αὐτοὺς εἰς τὸ ὄνομα (in the name) τοῦ πατρὸς (of the father) καὶ τοῦ υἱοῦ (of the son) καὶ τοῦ ἁγίου πνεύματος (of the holy spirit)..." (Matt. 28:19)

As we read, the apostles were instructed to invoke in the name (singular) of the following three (plural): the father, the son, and the holy spirit, each separate being serving a particular role, yet they all are the one God, and thus are called "God."

To better help you understand, consider there exists three separate states of water: solid, liquid, and gas, each serving a particular role, yet they all are water, and thus are called ''water."

It is commonly known that this verse (Matt. 28:19) was corrupted from the original..."baptize them in My name". it seems you didn't get the memo? The Johanine "comma" from 1 John 5 was also a later addition (much later) and is now left out of more modern translations. In this we see the schemes of religious people who want to control the faith of others....reducing the POWER of the Spirit (and presence of God) to something they can control. So you can be forgiven your error.

I used to say the same things about the created elements...but those elements are created...and have to do with US....not God. We who are of the family of God are of three kinds. Jesus said the kingdom of God was like leaven hidden in 3 measures of meal.

In the body of Christ there are saints, the righteous, and the vessels of dishonour (the filthy). The saints are moved by the Spirit (wind) like a gas. The righteous flow with each other like water (liquid)...and the obstinate ones have hearts of stone (solid).

If you have some discernment you can tell which ones are which as clearly as you can tell what state a created element is in.

 

[Cooper]

It is commonly known that this verse (Matt. 28:19) was corrupted from the original..."baptize them in My name". it seems you didn't get the memo? The Johanine "comma" from 1 John 5 was also a later addition (much later) and is now left out of more modern translations. In this we see the schemes of religious people who want to control the faith of others....reducing the POWER of the Spirit (and presence of God) to something they can control. So you can be forgiven your error.

I used to say the same things about the created elements...but those elements are created...and have to do with US....not God. We who are of the family of God are of three kinds. Jesus said the kingdom of God was like leaven hidden in 3 measures of meal.

In the body of Christ there are saints, the righteous, and the vessels of dishonour (the filthy). The saints are moved by the Spirit (wind) like a gas. The righteous flow with each other like water (liquid)...and the obstinate ones have hearts of stone (solid).

If you have some discernment you can tell which ones are which as clearly as you can tell what state a created element is in.

Water has 2 atoms of Hydrogen and 1 atom of oxygen. It is three while being One.

I have good discernment and as I speak to people of all religions I find the most inflexible are those brought up on the Old Testament, or as you and the Bible say "hearts of stone (solid)." Jesus is the evidence.
.

 

[BreadOfLife]

From where else could anything proceed? The box you put your God in is very limited.

In other wwords - you habe NO intelligent response.
That's what I thought . . .

So, we'll try this a SECOND time:
The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father (John 14:26, John 15:26) AND from the Son (John 20:22-23) - therefore, He is NOT the Father.

Explain.
Maybe one of your buddies here can help you . . .

You think that my life is built around responding to you? Sorry, Charlie.
Saying there are holes without explaining the holes is meaningless.

Ummmmm, I already explained the holes in your argument back in post #41.
Here they are again . . .

HOLE #1 -
I give you literally DOZENS of Scripture verses as evidence for the Triune Godhead - and YOU question THREE of them??
You still got a LOT of spalinin' to do here . . .

HOLE #2 -
Your statement a about 1 John 5:7 is nonsense because the bulk of the entire New Testament wasa written in Koine Greek and NOT Hebrew. The Septuagint is a Greek translatio0n of the OLD Testament.

HOLE #3 -
As to your claim that the rest of Scriptural evidence that I presented "bolsters" your position against the Trinity - HOW so?

Finally, with regards to your question - God is not a "state" - first, second OR third.
He is ALWAYS all 3 Persons. To imply thar He is divided into "states" is Modalism, which is a heresy.

I'll make it easy on you by giving you just a couple of verses that show the Trinity - that the ONE God is manoifested in THREE Persons. Then, YOU can give me your response . . .

The Father is GOD
Psalm 68:5
Father of the fatherless and protector of widows is GOD in his holy habitation.

The Son is GOD
John 20:28
And Thomas answered and said unto him [Jesus], “My Lord and my GOD!”

The Holy Spirit is GOD
Acts 5:3-4
But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the price of the land for yourself? "While it remained, was it not your own? And after it was sold, was it not in your own control? Why have you conceived this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to GOD."

You failed to answer ANY of the points I made - and you falsely accused me of not explaining the "holes" in your argument.
I ended by giving you THREE verses of Scripture (in BLUE) and asked you to explain why the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are ALL referred to as "God".

So, you can either respond by giving intelligent explanations for the rock-solid Scriptural evidence I presented - or simply admit 6that you don't know what you're talking about.