One Creed to live by and die for...

[face2face]

“Grieve not the Holy Spirit”. Eph 4:30

Many translators will have God's Holy Spirit, or Holy Spirit of God...either is fine.

In this text there is personification and metonymy. The Spirit is spoken of as if it were a person, and then by metonymy it is put for God, whose the Spirit is. It is God that we grieve, and the Ephesians and other first century churches who had spirit-gifts grieved God, who had by those gifts manifested His power in their midst.

In the same way of Israel, it is said “they vexed His Holy Spirit” which is the same context as the Ephesians. The Spirit is not a person and the word is a metonymy for God. But the language has been understood in such a way that instead of the use of personification as a figure of speech, the literal meaning is given to the word and the Spirit is gradually personalized. When that happens and the Spirit is thought of as a conscious self-acting power instead of a divine agency, the next step which has to be taken is to seek to define the relationships of Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Then the history of the declension of the second and third centuries is repeated, and the end is the doctrine of “the Holy Trinity”.

F2F

 

[Behold]

“Grieve not the Holy Spirit”. Eph 4:30

"God is a Spirit"

"Christ is THAT Spirit"

A.) The Holy Spirit

"3" as One.

 

[face2face]

"God is a Spirit"

True and what comes from Him is Holy. Your 3 in 1 theory is simply that - a man made theory.

 

[face2face]

"Christ is THAT Spirit"

Christ became that Spirit through suffering.
So it is written, The first man Adam became a living being; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
Can you explain precisely how Christ became a Life-giving spirit? Or how God achieved this in His Son?
Didn't think so!

 

[face2face]

@BreadOfLife

Personification is a very clever tool and effective if you understand the divine doctrine underlying it. Here are some wisdom examples; Prov. 1:20: Proverbs 4:6, 7, 13:7:1, 22, 23.

The Bible uses many literary techniques to teach us wisdom and understanding. You need an open mind to learn from them...it will increase the pleasure you get from reading the Word.

Hope that helps.
F2F

 

[face2face]

Here is a conundrum for @APAK & @Wrangler to comment on!

As we know Jesus was given existence and life "begotten of the Spirit" by God BUT “God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power” (Acts 10:38)

Can you see the issue here?

A trinitarian must believe the “First Person” of the Trinity anointed the “Second Person” with the “Third Person”...can you see the confusion here?

For what reason would the second person require anointing by the third?

Putting that confusion to one side for the moment - there must be something "inferior" with the second person (Jesus) that he required anointing.

In this same chapter (Acts 10:44, 45) we read:

“the Holy Spirit fell upon them which heard the word”;
“on the Gentiles was poured out the gift of the Holy Spirit.”
“God gives not the spirit by measure unto him” (Jesus) (John 3:34).
“Give me also this power, ” said Simon Magus (Acts 8:19);
but men cannot buy the Holy Spirit, as Peter told him.

The Word of God does not recognised the Holy Spirit as a person but rather as Power (with abilities).

I'm wondering if Trinitarians can see the many issues in making the Holy Spirit a person of the Godhead, rather than the clear Bible teaching of it being God's Word with Power?

F2F

 

[Illuminator]

Heaven is not the reward of the saints, Bread.
"The meek shall inherent the earth"... the Kingdom is "of" Heaven, not "in" Heaven.
Your own thoughts again?

Without being sanctified - we cannot enter into Heaven. Nothing unclean can enter heaven. There is plenty of "proof text" for that if you really need it. To enter into heaven means you have to be physically dead first. "Kingdom of God" is synonymous with the Church, on earth as it is in heaven.

So the meek will become rich politicians keeping everybody happy? What exactly does "earth" mean?

There were all kinds of heretics running loose in the 4th century, challenging Apostolic Teaching on the identity of the Holy Spirit. These serious matters were addressed at the Council of Chalcedon, whose authoritive proclamations are (generally) accepted by Protestants, Orthodox and Catholics. Logically, to dismiss or ignore summarized versions of that council is to be anti-trinitarian, consequently, anti-Protestant. The Holy Spirit is a Divine Person, that is a revealed truth and not something bishops pulled out of their funny looking hats.

 

[face2face]

Without being sanctified - we cannot enter into Heaven.

So the meek will become rich politicians keeping everybody happy? What exactly does "earth" mean?

There were all kinds of heretics running loose in the 4th century, challenging Apostolic Teaching on the identity of the Holy Spirit. These serious matters were addressed at the Council of Chalcedon, whose authoritive proclamations are (generally) accepted by Protestants, Orthodox and Catholics. Logically, to dismiss or ignore summarized versions of that council is to be anti-trinitarian, consequently, anti-Protestant.

My memory fails me. You're not a Hislopite, are you?

No sorry!
Earth means its the focus and location of the coming Kingdom - nowhere is it taught to be in Heaven.

 

[Wrangler]

As we know Jesus was given existence and life "begotten of the Spirit" by God BUT “God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power” (Acts 10:38)

Can you see the issue here?

A trinitarian must believe the “First Person” of the Trinity anointed the “Second Person” with the “Third Person”...can you see the confusion here?

I see where you are going but the bigger absurdity in trinitarian-land is the Father did not give existence to the Son but this other entity called the person of the Holy Spirit. This makes "the Father" a misnomer.

 

[Wrangler]

For what reason would the second person require anointing by the third?

To answer this, they rely on mystical dualism. They just add as much complexity as needed, then admit no human mind can grasp the nonsense they invented. So, the one God is three but one of these gods has an appendage, if you will, that is humanoid.

It is this humanoid appendage of the 2nd that needed to be infused with divinity by the 3rd. Why the 2nd person could not infuse their own selves is a "mystery." The 1st person basically does nothing but wait to be appeased and why it/he/they need to be appeased in the 1st place when the 2nd and 3rd are doing all the work and taking all the pains is another "mystery."

We aren't meant to understand it. But you better believe it. A pastor of a local church claimed understanding may be impossible but not believing it MAY be the cost of your soul. Such a powerful Appeal to Force requires not one shred of Scriptural support, mind you.

Here is another quandary. Given the 2nd person was created by the 3rd, when did the 1st create the 3rd god? NOTE: Scriptural "support" for the Son always existing or pre-existing the rest of creation are silent on what this 3rd person was up to - or even existed - during the 6 days of Creation. For instance, Genesis explicitly references "the Spirit was over the deep" but makes no mention of the Son. The NT verses say it was through the 2nd that everything was created - but never mentions the 3rd.

Here, another invention is employed; artificial synthesis. They just connect verses in whatever manner suits them with no justification other than it "supports" their doctrine, they claim. Amazing so many buy into all this unnecessary complexity. I suppose it shows people's deep rooted desire for mysticism, despite our supposed high level of education.

 

[Wrangler]

I'm wondering if Trinitarians can see the many issues in making the Holy Spirit a person of the Godhead, rather than the clear Bible teaching of it being God's Word with Power?

They see beauty and majesty in their IDOL.

Another quandary is why the 2nd person prayed at all. This is complicated by the fact that he never prayed to the 3rd, to the one who gave him existence. Given the order of creation, you think the 3rd would be called the 2nd and the 3rd would be called the 2nd.

Another problem is the inequality of power distribution among the gods. Given that Jesus was given ALL authority on heaven and Earth, it does not leave much authority for the 3rd. A god with no authority is not much of a god. Not to worry. Dualism to the rescue. The importance of Jesus being given ALL authority is offset by the claim they are all 1.

Never forget the mighty power of dualism, side stepping the shackles of the mutual exclusivity principle of logic. Having other gods before the Father is now OK. God is no longer a jealous god. Yea but Jesus taught us to pray only to the Father. That matters for nothing cause there was this guy, Thomas, he called Jesus God. So, it doesn't matter what Jesus did or said - except when it does. The Bible is very clear on this - except when there is "mystery" on top of "mystery." Dualism. The Dr Seuss of Theology.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Okay so you dont understand personification.
Why is Wisdom referred to a she or a woman in the Proverbs?
I must say you inability to the enter the Word of God is rather telling Bread.
Also denying everything presented to you is a sign of one being unteachable.
F2F

WRONG.

Wisdom is not spoken of as someone you can LIE TO. The Holy Spirit IS.
Wisdom isn’t referred to as “God”. The Holy Spirit IS.

Nobody was ever struck DEAD for lying to Wisdom . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

So you were unable to speak to Acts 5....interesting
Can you see your problem?

Nope.

YOU went on a tangent and I brought the conversation back to the topic.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Heaven is not the reward of the saints, Bread.
"The meek shall inherent the earth"... the Kingdom is "of" Heaven, not "in" Heaven.
Your own thoughts again?

That's NOT what the Bible says . . .

John 14:2-4
My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. You know the way to the place where I am going.”

Matt. 5:12
Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great IN HEAVEN, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

Luke 12:33-34
Sell your possessions, and give to the needy. Provide yourselves with moneybags that do not grow old, with a treasure IN THE HEAVENS that does not fail, where no thief approaches and no moth destroys. For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

Phil. 3:20
But our citizenship is IN HEAVEN, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ

 

[BreadOfLife]

No Bread,
I've dealt with Revelation 1:1 & 1:8 so lets look at Rev 22:13. This is more for others benefit than yours.

Notice how God (Yahweh) manifests this same title at the beginning and at the end of the Revelation? It's fitting that He shows His Work of beginning and ending, which is consistent with all He does, both in Christ, and His Prophetical Revelations.

"I am Alpha and Omega' So Yahweh manifested through mighty ones, Jesus being the Mightiest of this creation who like all those he represents have a beginning and an end!

"The beginning and the end" & "The first and the last"

All of these titles do not apply or define God Himself, as having a beginning and an end, unlike the Lord Jesus Christ, He is outside of these titles - If Bread persists with this line of reasoning, they are in affect stating God is not the Almighty and that there is another God unknown to them, who did all these things.

The question they must answer is this - did Jesus have a beginning and an end?

If no, then Christ is not a savior and must be God
If yes, then Christ lived and died to cleanse them of their sins - but in no way can be God - Who has no beginning or end.

F2F

You're not listening.

Almighty God clearly states, "I am the alpha and the Omega" in Rev. 1:8.
The Son, Jesus Christ, says, "I am the alpha and the Omega" in Rev. 22:13.

Christ IS the Savior - and He IS God.
Why do YOU feel that He can only be ONE ot the other?

What a pathetic little god you've invented for yourself . . .

 

[Wrangler]

Without being sanctified - we cannot enter into Heaven. Nothing unclean can enter heaven.

Satan approached God in Job.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Satan approached God in Job.

Show me where it says that Satan entered into Heaven to address God.
Chapter and Verse, please . . .

 

[APAK]

You should only be afraid of posting Against the Truth, in public.
That deed is a spiritual seed that will return to its owner.

I dont have that issue, as Jesus who "Was God" in John 1, is "the Word became flesh"...Virgin born. = "God manifested in the Flesh".

So. You can spin your verses upside down, all you like, but when you read that Jesus "made the world".....John 1:10, and Colossians 1:16... you have to want to deny that truth, and that's not a good idea.

See, He who made the world, Jesus, in John 1:10, spoke the Word of Creation, and the world originally showed up.

Same "God".

"Jesus is the Word" in John 1.......that God "Spoke".... as Creation, by the Holy Spirit..

See those 3?

God, The Word, The Holy Spirit

I'm afraid you cannot explain any of what you just wrote Behold. So can you please expand on and explain John 1:1 and 14 without just stating the verses again. And do not go into a circular loop and say John 1:1 is so because of John 1:14 and John 1:14 is true because of John 1:1. Meaning do not use circular logic.

Can you believe that John a Judahite, of the Hebrews would believe the Son of God was also God? He was under the law and I believe he would have stated such a peculiar and stunning revelation right? And he didn't! And John just beleived Jesus was the Son of God.

You do not believe that God, his Holy spirit, was inside and operating in the man Jesus do you? And that is what John 1:14 simply means. You must know what the word means before you can jump and say it is a person Behold.

Yet you believe you have God inside yourself with limited function and power from him, right? And not so for Jesus right because he was God and did not need the Father God within him? No proxy, or prophet for God right? No agent or prince for the King that speaks and acts in what the Spirit of God tell him right? He was never the word of God right? He was just the same God without further explanation or discussion necessary, right?

I would be very amazed if you could somehow say Jesus, the Messiah, the Son of God and the most powerful prophet of God was also God because of (fill it in Behold) why, what, how, and when did this actually occur? You need to do all this Behold using scripture and in context, for me to even consider what you say is true. So is it worth it to tell me how you arrived at your conclusions? If not then I believe you do not consider it important....and then both you and I will know what is truth.

You know the Pharisees asked Jesus are you the Christ and the Son of God....and then they wanted to stone him for calling himslef these titles and also trying to be equal with God because he said he acted on the words of God, using his words and deeds, and performing miracles. And that is why the Pharisees also said he had a devil or he was working for Satan. Jesus never meant he was God, although through his acts and words from God he was equal to God his Father in this sense. Equal in what he was doing and who he was doing for, in his service - his Father.

Now do you know why the Pharisees used these words about equality with God? You see in the Hebrew culture, an agent of God not only represented God they were as if they were God himself, although not the same person of course only in his service. So Jesus comes along and says he is the Christ and the Son of God and the Pharisees think he has God with him, even in spirit, acts and mind, the angels and prophets of the OT and more, as the actual birthed Son of God. They knew he was not God himself of course, although they also did not believe he was actually the Son of God nor the prophet as the anointed one as no human being ever became the true Son of God, and the chosen Messiah of God. This was so stunning to them, and Jesus was now handful to them. They could not contain him in public and he had to killed or imprisoned

...................

 

[Behold]

I'm afraid you cannot explain any of what you just wrote Behold.

...................

Im not the person who pastes cut and paste, mostly verses, often unrelated, and then i say..>"see there, gotcha'

That is you, Apak.


So, here is the thing.

"Let Us make man in our Image"..........is Plural.....Its 2.

That is God the Father, of Creation, and Jesus, pre-incarnate, as the "Word was God", in John 1.

This is very simple to understand.


You then will read...>"Jesus was in the world and the world was Made by Him". and you can't connect that to John 1.

And then you read "God manifested in the Flesh"

And then you read....."I and my Father are one".

And then you read... Jesus said...>>" I am from above and you are from below"..

Its all the same God. ,but in "3". when you add the Holy Spirit.

 

[APAK]

Im not the person who pastes cut and paste, mostly verses, often unrelated, and then i say..>"see there, gotcha'

That is you, Apak.


So, here is the thing.

"Let Us make man in our Image"..........is Plural.....Its 2.

That is God the Father, of Creation, and Jesus, pre-incarnate, as the "Word was God", in John 1.

This is very simple to understand.


You've been taught not to see it.


You will read...>"Jesus was in the world and the world was Made by Him".

And then you read "God manifested in the Flesh"

And then you read....."I and my Father are one".

And then you read... Jesus said...>>" I am from above and you are from below"..


See it?

often unrelated verses aye....that says it all Behold, you do not know scripture nor wish to use it as your belief and true because you are not so equipped. Just admit it would be the honest thing to do.

I use scripture to show you your constant errors in what subject you raise. And you continue to do this here...

And so you raise more PARTIAL verses to teach me something. Let's see, God uses a plural part of speech as in 'us' in Genesis. It is only one of 4 places he does this you know in the entire Bible, in the OT, and all indicate that these 4 places using this plurality concern his plurality of majesty, and /or his angelic audience, and /or his heavenly counsel. You must know this already right?

It is wishful thinking to believe that our one LORD God is a triune god in this scripture or any other Behold.

Try again, and again Behold, like pounding your head into a wall. The wall (scripture) will not suffer, you head or desire to force and steer scripture and move it the way desire will cease eventually.