One Creed to live by and die for...

[ChristisGod]

Haha the big guns are out again. I believe I have answered nearly all these, or most of them to you and some other in recent past.

Listed point statements without meaning and understanding are useless. I would wager you cannot explain many of them fully to persuade anyone. I would not be proud at all if I were you.

If you want me to answer them all again, not in hours, over few weeks....I will do it for you if you wish. Let me know. I will stick to my word on this of course.

I’ve debated Unitarians for over 4 decades and have heard every human argument against Christs Deity.

 

[Keturah]

I hope you at least read and understood beyond a mental exercise my post concerning the prophet Jesus...and thank you for your candor. Although scripture in all its explicit meaning(s) and context is not on your side.

That's all it was ....a mental exercise!
The truth of the  Word of God will long be standing even once we have passed.

 

[APAK]

I’ve debated Unitarians for over 4 decades and have heard every human argument against Christs Deity.

Stop it already, you are becoming very amusing as you have not debated any serious mature believer in the Father and his Son ever. If you did you would have produced some substance and quality in you posts by now. I do not believe you at all. The proof is in your writings.

Is your self- induced delusion that you say and really know the nature of God and his Son so dependent on and engrained and weighted down by your deep and wide ego? I think so...

 

[APAK]

That's all it was ....a mental exercise!
The truth of the  Word of God will long be standing even once we have passed.

True, and it won't be defined as you define it either. And why do you capitalize word? This answer can explain a few things that I already know of you.

 

[Keturah]

"This answer can explain a few things that I already know of you."APAK

@APAK oh plz do tell.......

 

[APAK]

Ok, I going to call it for a day and for the night...

Can we spend some time focusing on the Creed in the OP or by me as the OP. And compare it with with other creeds created by men of the 3rd and 4th century.

This may be a useful discussion, I hope.... @Enoch111 @Christophany @Wrangler @Michiah-Imla @face2face and others who would like to add...

Bless you all...

 

[ChristisGod]

Stop it already, you are becoming very amusing as you have not debated any serious mature believer in the Father and his Son ever. If you did you would have produced some substance and quality in you posts by now. I do not believe you at all. The proof is in your writings.

Is your self- induced delusion that you say and really know the nature of God and his Son so dependent on and engrained and weighted down by your deep and wide ego? I think so...

Well once the ad hominem attacks start its a sure sign of defeat when one has to attack another persons character instead of refuting his arguments which so far you have failed to do with every post I made in this thread.

 

[Keturah]

JOHN CHAPTER 17 KJV
15.I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

JOHN 1:1 CONTEXT KJV
¹In the beginning was the **Word," and the "Word" was with God, and the *Word was God."
2The same was in the beginning with God.
3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

JOHN CHAPTER 8 KJV
30 As he spake these words, many believed on him.
31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
32 And ye shall know the  truth, and the truth shall make you  free.
33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?

JOHN CHAPTER 14 KJV
4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.
5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth and the life : no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

@APAK .... I'll be expecting YOUR ANSWER OF "YOU KNOWING ME "!

 

[Keturah]

@APAK

"This answer can explain a few things that I already know of you."APAK

@APAK oh plz do tell.......

 

[face2face]

You just CONTRADICTED Scripture (1 Tim 3:16 KJB and almost all Greek manuscripts). Way to go.
καὶ ὁμολογουμένως μέγα ἐστὶν τὸ τῆς εὐσεβείας μυστήριον· Θεὸς ἐφανερώθη ἐν σαρκί ἐδικαιώθη ἐν πνεύματι ὤφθη ἀγγέλοις ἐκηρύχθη ἐν ἔθνεσιν ἐπιστεύθη ἐν κόσμῳ ἀνελήφθη ἐν δόξῃ

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

So who is Christ? GOD THE WORD who took human form. So Thomas could say without the shadow of a doubt "My Lord and my GOD!"

True, God was revealed through the Flesh - He did not become flesh. You don't have the language in the Scripture to hold your current beliefs.

 

[face2face]

While @APAK gains some rest, I am interested in how you all interpret 1 Peter 1:20

“He (Christ) was foreknown (by God) before the foundation of the world but was manifested in these last times for your sake

If the Apostle believed Christ to be God, and that he pre-existed, how does this verse make sense? How can you foreknow people in the Bible, if they always existed?

There are so many example of this; Jeremiah; the Saints; The Nation of Israel; Abraham etc.

F2F

 

[Enoch111]

True, God was revealed through the Flesh - He did not become flesh.

Obviously you would rather cling to your HERETICAL BELIEFS than believe God and Christ. "God was manifest in the flesh" means that God became a Man of flesh, bones, and blood. A human being. But He remained a sinless Man and He also remained fully God. Therefore He could die for the sins of the whole world. But you are denying a fundamental Gospel truth which makes you a false teacher. Heresies abound on this forum.

 

[Enoch111]

Can we spend some time focusing on the Creed in the OP or by me as the OP.

Yes. I did focus on the OP and showed you that ELOHIM means that there is a plurality within the Godhead. Therefore God (Elohim) said "Let US make man in OUR image and in OUR likeness". That is exactly what we have in the Hebrew (marked in blue):
וַיֹּ֣אמֶר אֱלֹהִ֔ים נַֽעֲשֶׂ֥ה אָדָ֛ם בְּצַלְמֵ֖נוּ כִּדְמוּתֵ֑נוּ וְיִרְדּוּ֩ בִדְגַ֨ת הַיָּ֜ם וּבְעֹ֣וף הַשָּׁמַ֗יִם וּבַבְּהֵמָה֙ וּבְכָל־הָאָ֔רֶץ וּבְכָל־הָרֶ֖מֶשׂ הָֽרֹמֵ֥שׂ עַל־הָאָֽרֶץ

At the same time God is indeed ONE GOD. This is the "Mystery of God, and of the Father of of Christ".

 

[Wrangler]

I believe you were responding to Enoch. here...

Yea, just a little fun invoking of arguments that contradict the facts. Indeed, your post was the opposite, citing MANY verses that tell the story they do not want to hear.

 

[APAK]

Yes. I did focus on the OP and showed you that ELOHIM means that there is a plurality within the Godhead. Therefore God (Elohim) said "Let US make man in OUR image and in OUR likeness". That is exactly what we have in the Hebrew (marked in blue):
וַיֹּ֣אמֶר אֱלֹהִ֔ים נַֽעֲשֶׂ֥ה אָדָ֛ם בְּצַלְמֵ֖נוּ כִּדְמוּתֵ֑נוּ וְיִרְדּוּ֩ בִדְגַ֨ת הַיָּ֜ם וּבְעֹ֣וף הַשָּׁמַ֗יִם וּבַבְּהֵמָה֙ וּבְכָל־הָאָ֔רֶץ וּבְכָל־הָרֶ֖מֶשׂ הָֽרֹמֵ֥שׂ עַל־הָאָֽרֶץ

At the same time God is indeed ONE GOD. This is the "Mystery of God, and of the Father of of Christ".

I agree with your post Enoch except for and out of your own eagerness of being true I expect, you added in your own opinion that can be true and also very misleading. I vote for the latter. And that's fine if you just know it is not necessarily what you think it means or is the case or situation.

And that is the phrase I have a contention with you on..."..... within the Godhead.???

You see this Godhead that is not really an original title in scripture. It comes from the middle English word 'godhood.' Regardless, you believe in 3 persons in this godhead, and I believe in only one, the Father God, and head, as the Son is the head of believers and his Body. And as I wrote earlier to you and others, Elohim as a plural in this case and in only a few other places in the OT does not make the representation of this word more than one, and it does not in this case. It is still echad of a literal one personality, cardinal one.

And for me, in this case it represents the one Father God clarifying and sharing his plurality of majesty within the heavenly council of angel and such.

Great Day ...

 

[APAK]

Yea, just a little fun invoking of arguments that contradict the facts. Indeed, your post was the opposite, citing MANY verses that tell the story they do not want to hear.

indeed.. they do not want to hear these words in their ears as they attempt to pass through their minds. It is kryptonite to many. They batten down the hatches and harden their hearts to the incoming salvo of scripture that is of the word of God the Father. It does not fit their new Christianity world view invented in the 3rd-4th centuries. Their creeds of allegiance reflect this as fact/proof.

Great it is Wrangler that you and I can share our views and still are allowed get our druthers of thoughts in writing as this site is becoming more religious woke.....Bless you bro

 

[Wrangler]

Can we spend some time focusing on the Creed in the OP or by me as the OP. And compare it with with other creeds created by men of the 3rd and 4th century.

We can. One reason I did not comment on the OP creed so far is formatting; I'm not sure where the creed ends and your commentary begins. Perhaps the break is as follows.

Only one Creed to live by and die for

Listen up (Shema)! There is only one Creed (Credo) worth living and dying for in this earthly life.

There once was an ordinary man of no prominence who knew his father very well, and lived for him in more ways that we can even imagine as being humanly possible. He was unique, one of a kind. He grew in wisdom and his life became increasingly focused on his Father's work. He lived his life to do his Father's work and not his own. He never sinned as he was not born under the curse of a human father, of Adamic sin with a natural inclination to sin.

He was given more gifts that any man, and lived and used them all and he kept receiving more as he matured. And in so doing his father expected more and more from him, and he delivered, with his own life. He truly loved his father!

He started being gifted with knowledge, understanding and then wisdom, from his father. When he made his final decision for his father to fulfill his mission on earth, he was then empowered with his father's spirit, and with gifts/spirits of power to perform miraculous deeds as his father then worked in and through him. He died and was reborn into superhuman glory, for both himself, his father and others like us.

His name was Jesus or Yahshua and he was begotten by his father, his God, through his own spirit. He served his God with purpose and focus, to die and be resurrected, reborn into immortality to become a quickening spirit of life for others, to restore humanity into good standing with his Father God once again.

He once said of his Father as he repeated what Moses also previously said:

And Jesus answered him, “The first of all the commands [is], Hear, O Israel: The LORD is our God, the LORD is one; and you will love the LORD your God out of all your heart, and out of your soul, and out of all your understanding, and out of all your strength....(Mark 12:29-30) (LSV)

Hear, O Israel: Our God YHWH—YHWH [is] one!
And you have loved your God YHWH with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might.(Deuteronomy 6:4-5) (LSV)

Now for those that think that Yahshua is also God, then a great and ideal time for him to share this hidden fact would have been when he spoke of his God being only one, one person, his own person. He might have said something like, remember, O Israel, I'm also a part of the/this 'one' LORD GOD. And even Moses could not recall Yahshua being the same one God that he knew.

The LORD God is one personality indeed, not of a couple or of several other personalities embedded within one type of material or of the same something, and still undefined today!

This then is the Creed of life that gives life to those that truly believe and demonstrate with faith in constant remembrance and by reciting it into their hearts as part of their personal life styles, until death.

All other creeds are of men and their vain philosophies about their own human view of God and his Son. Beware, these creeds are of the false teachers of centuries old who preached and believed in a false Christ and a false LORD GOD, the Father of us all. And it has successfully been passed on as truth today.

Who and what would you rather believe, the one creed of Moses and Jesus, or the several creeds formed out of extra-scriptural and pagan Hellenic sources by men of their own self-serving pious cloth?

So, I suggest a format like this.

Creed Title​

​

Creed P1​

​

Creed P2​

​

Creed P3​

​

...​

​

Narrative/Comment Paragraph 1​

​

Narrative/Comment Paragraph 2​

​

Narrative/Comment Paragraph 3​

​

...​

This way, there is a clear demarkation of what you are intending.

Regarding what seems like the creed part of the OP; I don't like the idea that the 'ordinary man of no prominence' was reborn after he died because a resurrection is different from what is in Scripture of being born again.

Creeds should be exceedingly concise. IF my identification of your creed is correct, it has 390 words, whereas the Apostles Creed only has 111 words. So, I suggest dramatically condensing it for easier memorization.

Regarding what seems like the narrative/commentary of the OP; your question at the end of what creed the audience would prefer begs the need for a creed to begin with. In the book When Jesus Became God, Richard Rubenstein explains the very reason the 4th century creed was devised is to counter different beliefs on the topic. The irony is the trinitarians began with a nod to the monotheist foundation of Judaism ... I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth. Then contradict themselves in the 2nd paragraph.

So, I appreciate how your creed begins straight away by talking about an 'ordinary man of no prominence.' In the show The Choosen, there is a scene before Jesus goes to the temple in Nazareth that ends with them wanting to throw him off a cliff for blasphemy. In the opening scene, the man are playing a game of catch with a bean bag. Jesus is depicted as not being very good at this game. The beauty of this scene is that it reinforces that he was indeed, an 'ordinary man of no prominence' and that his divine gifts only pertain to the mission his Father gave him.

This is in contrast to the Omen II, where the Anti-Christ is a child in school and enrages a teacher who challenges him with a series of questions, meant to humiliate him in front of the class. The Anti-Christ answers all the questions correctly, further enraging the teacher. This scene serves to reinforce the notion that this is no ordinary child. Indeed, the Anti-Christ is an extraordinary man of great prominence.

 

[APAK]

We can. One reason I did not comment on the OP creed so far is formatting; I'm not sure where the creed ends and your commentary begins. Perhaps the break is as follows.



So, I suggest a format like this.

Creed Title​

​

Creed P1​

​

Creed P2​

​

Creed P3​

​

...​

​

Narrative/Comment Paragraph 1​

​

Narrative/Comment Paragraph 2​

​

Narrative/Comment Paragraph 3​

​

...​

This way, there is a clear demarkation of what you are intending.

Regarding what seems like the creed part of the OP; I don't like the idea that the 'ordinary man of no prominence' was reborn after he died because a resurrection is different from what is in Scripture of being born again.

Creeds should be exceedingly concise. IF my identification of your creed is correct, it has 390 words, whereas the Apostles Creed only has 111 words. So, I suggest dramatically condensing it for easier memorization.

Regarding what seems like the narrative/commentary of the OP; your question at the end of what creed the audience would prefer begs the need for a creed to begin with. In the book When Jesus Became God, Richard Rubenstein explains the very reason the 4th century creed was devised is to counter different beliefs on the topic. The irony is the trinitarians began with a nod to the monotheist foundation of Judaism ... I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth. Then contradict themselves in the 2nd paragraph.

So, I appreciate how your creed begins straight away by talking about an 'ordinary man of no prominence.' In the show The Choosen, there is a scene before Jesus goes to the temple in Nazareth that ends with them wanting to throw him off a cliff for blasphemy. In the opening scene, the man are playing a game of catch with a bean bag. Jesus is depicted as not being very good at this game. The beauty of this scene is that it reinforces that he was indeed, an 'ordinary man of no prominence' and that his divine gifts only pertain to the mission his Father gave him.

This is in contrast to the Omen II, where the Anti-Christ is a child in school and enrages a teacher who challenges him with a series of questions, meant to humiliate him in front of the class. The Anti-Christ answers all the questions correctly, further enraging the teacher. This scene serves to reinforce the notion that this is no ordinary child. Indeed, the Anti-Christ is an extraordinary man of great prominence.

Right, creeds should be concise like words that fit your concise beliefs and allegiances that you carry in your pocket.

The Creed in the OP started with the Shema and ends with ....all you heart and mind and soul and being etc. Although Christ did add loving others as thyself....Add this to it then? What do you think...

Let me work on it....I may just list the generations of the classical creeds used by churches over the centuries and then we can pick them apart and analyze each one, one at at time against the Shema plus (+) Creed in scripture.

 

[Behold]

Ok @Behold, @Christophany @amigo de christo and @Keturah let's learn more about our lord and savior shall we.

John 1 says that "The Word was God".

So, you have.... "Let US.... make man in OUR image"

Thats 2.

Jesus the man is the "Word made Flesh".

John 1:10 says that Jesus made the world.

Colossians 1:16 confirms that Jesus did more then that....

 

[Michiah-Imla]

"God was manifest in the flesh" means that God became a Man of flesh, bones, and blood. A human being. But He remained a sinless Man and He also remained fully God.

Really?

Compare the following two scriptures please:

GOD CANNOT BE TEMPTED​

“…God cannot be tempted with evil…” (James 1:13)

JESUS WAS TEMPTED​

“Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.” (Hebrews 4:14-15)