One of the Best Explanations I've seen on Satan's sin.

[Aunty Jane]

I have explained this before....
Drawing definitive conclusions from vague metaphoric stories can cause false beliefs.
Never the less, it is human nature.
The talking serpent....do we have a talking serpent in Christianity?
Is Satan a serpent?

In the Revelation Jesus identified him as the “original serpent” in Eden. Was he a literal serpent? Were spirit beings capable of materializing as humans? Yes. Did they need God’s permission to manifest themselves in material bodies? Apparently not, because on several occasions angels materialized in human for to bring messages to God's human servants (Like Abraham at Mamre).....no technology back then to communicate in any other way. But “the sons of God” who materialized fleshly bodies in the days of Noah had actually defected because they had sex with human women and produced freakishly gigantic offspring.....these were the ones responsible for the licentiousness and violence at that time......and probably provided the basis for the gods of Greek mythology as well.

God saved the only righteous man of that time by getting him to build a vessel and bringing the flood, which got rid of the Nephilim and forced their errant fathers back to the spirit realm, where he placed them under restraint....they were never said to materialize again. This action though drastic, put God’s purpose back on track.

So if Satan was “the covering cherub” in the garden of Eden, what was to stop him either materializing as a serpent, or even using one as a dupe, like a ventriloquist does a dummy?

When Satan was tempting Christ on the mountain....was that a talking serpent.

It does not say what manifestation satan took when tempting Jesus, but he was able to show him all the kingdoms of the world in an instant of time. Something that today would have been no big deal.

Does the name Satan appear in Genesis?

No but the adversary was both a resistor and a slanderer.

Do the Jews believe that was Satan?

Why did the Jews need to know this? The true colors of the devil manifested when Jesus was born in Bethlehem. Which started with a plot using Babylonian astrologers as dupes to have Jesus killed whilst he was still an infant.

If the Serpent was Satan....did God know that? Why not say it.

Is there a scripture that says the words....and Satan is a devil?

Yes...Revelation 12:7-12.
Since “satan” and “devil” are not names but titles describing the person to whom they are assigned, why would God need to identify him? The “adversary” is also a title....someone who is an adversary is an opposer.

Christianity believes things about the Hebrew Bible that are not there.
What are the prophets? Did God give them information? If so, and they knew that Satan was a devil, they would have made that clear...an entity that is the enemy of God and man. Front page news wouldn't you think?

Jesus came to add the details that were missing in Jewish understanding....isn’t that why Paul called it a "sacred secret" or "mystery"?
.....the Jews rejected him as a nation, but individual Jews and Gentiles were privileged with that information. 2,000 years later and the Jews still don't get it.

If the prophets knew that the messiah would be the Son of God...a God, that would fill the prophetic book of the Hebrew Bible. Dancing in the streets and shouting from the mountain tops. Whatever else they had to say....what else would trump that? Fill the prophetic book! Nearly every page. What it would not be, is something that you would have to comb the scriptures to find something that would suggest He would be a God.

All it takes is an understanding of the word "theos".....both Jehovah and his son are rightly termed "theos" in the Greek meaning and understanding of the word. Remember that their gods were not 'goody two shoes'. So it does not mean in Greek what it meant to the Jews or the early Christians. It was a translation problem.....the Greeks had no word to describe the ONE perfect but nameless God of Israel, so they just threw in the definite article...."ho" meaning the difference between a "divine" or "god-like" one, and "THE God" of the Jews.

The issue is that we know that Satan became a devil and most do not understand why that was not made clear in the Hebrew Bible.
When did the fall of the angels occur? When did Satan became a devil? That is a debate...but it is not going to be resolved from the information in the Hebrew Bible.

Satan means “Resister,” or “Adversary.” “Devil” means “Slanderer,” “Accuser,” or “Maligner.” He became all of these in Eden.
Amazingly, satan's real name is never mentioned in the scriptures. God has never allowed it to be revealed. He is only known by his descriptive titles.
When did the angels follow satan in rebellion? Since the angels who materialized in Noah's day were rebels, apparently we can trace their defection at least back to then. Who knows how long they been ogling these beautiful women? Sex was denied to the angels because they are created, not the product of reproduction. It was therefore a grossly unnatural desire for them.

Paul and the rest of the Apostles were Jews...not stupid. They came to know that Satan was a devil...but they did not tell us when the fall occurred or when Satan became a devil.

Genesis does.....he became a "resistor" and a "slanderer" right in the beginning.....not rocket science is it?
What am I missing? Should we call in Sherlock Holmes?

Nit picking? God's name nit picking? In my beliefs, God's name is important and deserves to be in the Bible. Paul said there was only one name that could be called upon for salvation. A little important. The J slam was part of the effort to remove God's name from the Old and New Testament. The name of God the Father or God the Son is no longer in the Bible. I have a problem with that.

This always amuses me....all the fuss over pronunciation when the Jews, out of some kind of superstition, stopped uttering God's name long before Jesus walked the earth, so it was lost. But Jesus said that he had come to make God's name known to his disciples. (John 17:6,11)

Since believers in the trinity have no problem with the name "Jesus", but balk over the name "Jehovah" which are both English translations of their Hebrew names, how is calling the son of God "Jesus" OK, but not calling the Father "Jehovah"...don't they believe both are the same God?

There is no command anywhere in the Hebrew scriptures to stop saying the divine name out loud. The Bible writers used it freely and reverently.
But from the Tanakh we can see that God wanted his name to be "mentioned" in every generation.....just another incidence where the Jews let him down. They couldn't even maintain his precious name....
Exodus 3:15....Tanakh...
"15 And God said further to Moses, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'The Lord God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is My name forever, and this is how I should be mentioned in every generation. טווַיֹּ֩אמֶר֩ ע֨וֹד אֱלֹהִ֜ים אֶל־משֶׁ֗ה כֹּ֣ה תֹאמַר֘ אֶל־בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵל֒ יְהֹוָ֞ה אֱלֹהֵ֣י אֲבֹֽתֵיכֶ֗ם אֱלֹהֵ֨י אַבְרָהָ֜ם אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִצְחָ֛ק וֵֽאלֹהֵ֥י יַֽעֲקֹ֖ב שְׁלָחַ֣נִי אֲלֵיכֶ֑ם זֶה־שְּׁמִ֣י לְעֹלָ֔ם וְזֶ֥ה זִכְרִ֖י לְדֹ֥ר"

The "LORD GOD" is Jehovah...Yahweh....יְהֹוָ֞ה

 

[JohnPaul]

Yes...Revelation 12:7-12.
Since “satan” and “devil” are not names but titles describing the person to whom they are assigned, why would God need to identify him? The “adversary” is also a title....someone who is an adversary is an opposer.

So Satan and the Devil are one in the same correct? I got bit confused with Grailhunter's post yesterday regarding Lucifer being the morning star Venus and not Satan who caused the war in Heaven out of jealousy.

 

[Aunty Jane]

So Satan and the Devil are one in the same correct? I got bit confused with Grailhunter's post yesterday regarding Lucifer being the morning star Venus and not Satan who caused the war in Heaven out of jealousy.

Satan the devil was identified by Jesus, so that is good enough for me. He should know.

Lucifer was never a name given to satan, it is a descriptive designation applied to the “king of Babylon” (Isa 14:4, 12) who was seeking to lift up his throne “above the stars of God.” (Isa 14:4,12, 13)
The Hebrew expression is translated from a root meaning “shine.” (Job 29:3)
The rendering “Lucifer” (KJV) is derived from the Latin Vulgate.

 

[JohnPaul]

Satan the devil was identified by Jesus, so that is good enough for me. He should know.

Lucifer was never a name given to satan, it is a descriptive designation applied to the “king of Babylon” (Isa 14:4, 12) who was seeking to lift up his throne “above the stars of God.” (Isa 14:4,12, 13)
The Hebrew expression is translated from a root meaning “shine.” (Job 29:3)
The rendering “Lucifer” (KJV) is derived from the Latin Vulgate.

Thanks for the explanation, you learn something new everyday, so Satan being the top Angel in Heaven his name was always Satan?

 

[Grailhunter]

Is that one of these new liberal Bibles that have changed everything in it because it doesn't fit with the politically correct society, soon they'll add to it that homosexuality is ok.

LOL No, its your Bible and everyone else's. God's name gone! Would Satan want Bibles to cover the earth with the power of
God's name it them?

The removal of God the Father's name
Grailhunter’s Corner

The removal of God the Son's name
Grailhunter’s Corner

 

[Grailhunter]

In the Revelation Jesus identified him as the “original serpent” in Eden.

Dragon....serpent....intended to be an insult.

But “the sons of God” who materialized fleshly bodies in the days of Noah had actually defected because they had sex with human women and produced freakishly gigantic offspring.

This had nothing to do with angels....the sons of God were not angels because they could reproduce.

 

[Grailhunter]

So if Satan was “the covering cherub” in the garden of Eden, what was to stop him either materializing as a serpent, or even using one as a dupe, like a ventriloquist does a dummy?

God has many powers but the miraculous powers of angels are limited or they would appear to be as Gods and they would be worshiped. No example of angels transforming to animals.

 

[Grailhunter]

No but the adversary was both a resistor and a slanderer.

As with most Pagans.

 

[Grailhunter]

Why did the Jews need to know this? The true colors of the devil manifested when Jesus was born in Bethlehem. Which started with a plot using Babylonian astrologers as dupes to have Jesus killed whilst he was still an infant.

Babylonian...LOL...Got to keep your time periods straight. Those Babylonian astrologers as you call them, were the first humans to worship Christ and gave Him a full treasure to assist His life. And not that the Magi were nationalized but their closest association was with Persia and Alexandra, Egypt.

 

[Grailhunter]

All it takes is an understanding of the word "theos".....both Jehovah and his son are rightly termed "theos" in the Greek meaning and understanding of the word. Remember that their gods were not 'goody two shoes'. So it does not mean in Greek what it meant to the Jews or the early Christians. It was a translation problem.....the Greeks had no word to describe the ONE perfect but nameless God of Israel, so they just threw in the definite article...."ho" meaning the difference between a "divine" or "god-like" one, and "THE God" of the Jews.

All it takes is an understand the word theos! LOL Exactly and all that has to happen in the Hebrew Bible.

 

[Grailhunter]

Genesis does.....he became a "resistor" and a "slanderer" right in the beginning.....not rocket science is it?
What am I missing? Should we call in Sherlock Holmes?

The English word for Satan can mean whatever we make it.
The Hebrew word for Satan....besides it being his name....means mostly accuser....by God's request.....prosecutor Job and Zechariah.
In usage....when the English word would be enemy.....the Hebrew Bible sometimes uses the word Satan....as advisory.

 

[Grailhunter]

Since believers in the trinity have no problem with the name "Jesus", but balk over the name "Jehovah" which are both English translations of their Hebrew names, how is calling the son of God "Jesus" OK, but not calling the Father "Jehovah"...don't they believe both are the same God?

There is no command anywhere in the Hebrew scriptures to stop saying the divine name out loud. The Bible writers used it freely and reverently.
But from the Tanakh we can see that God wanted his name to be "mentioned" in every generation.....just another incidence where the Jews let him down. They couldn't even maintain his precious name....
Exodus 3:15....Tanakh...
"15 And God said further to Moses, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'The Lord God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is My name forever, and this is how I should be mentioned in every generation. טווַיֹּ֩אמֶר֩ ע֨וֹד אֱלֹהִ֜ים אֶל־משֶׁ֗ה כֹּ֣ה תֹאמַר֘ אֶל־בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵל֒ יְהֹוָ֞ה אֱלֹהֵ֣י אֲבֹֽתֵיכֶ֗ם אֱלֹהֵ֨י אַבְרָהָ֜ם אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִצְחָ֛ק וֵֽאלֹהֵ֥י יַֽעֲקֹ֖ב שְׁלָחַ֣נִי אֲלֵיכֶ֑ם זֶה־שְּׁמִ֣י לְעֹלָ֔ם וְזֶ֥ה זִכְרִ֖י לְדֹ֥ר"

Agreed!!! God said not to use His name in vain. What sense would it make for God not to want anyone to know His name or say His name in reverence. So why did they remove God the Father's name and God the Son's name completely from the Old and New Testaments!

The removal of God the Father's name
Grailhunter’s Corner

The removal of God the Son's name
Grailhunter’s Corner

 

[Aunty Jane]

Thanks for the explanation, you learn something new everyday, so Satan being the top Angel in Heaven his name was always Satan?

No, satan was never a top Angel in heaven...that was part of his problem I think. He wanted to be more than his assignment as a “Cherub” allowed. Cherubs were assigned as guardians, which is why satan was in the garden in the first place. He saw what the humans were giving to God and he wanted that for himself. (James 1:13-15) Angel or human, all possess free will and can abuse it if they do not exercise self control, which is a fruit of God’s spirit. (Galatians 5:22)

No one knows what satan’s real name is because God has never allowed his angels to reveal their names. The only two angels mentioned by name in the Bible are Michael and Gabriel, who obviously hold very superior positions. Michael is the Archangel which makes him the Commander of the angelic forces. Gabriel has been used by God to deliver special messages, like a strengthening visit to Daniel, or informing Mary about the birth of Jesus.

Angels have rank in the Bible....Seraphs hold high rank as they are personal attendants upon God’s throne. Then there are Cherubs who are the guardians and then the Messengers who serve God by delivering his messages to humankind.....more so in ancient times than today because now we have the complete Bible, all we need to know is contained in its pages.
The angels are still observing all that is going on down here with great interest, even guiding right hearted ones to God’s truth before the end of this present system of things. (Revelation 14:6, 7)

 

[Aunty Jane]

LOL No, its your Bible and everyone else's. God's name gone! Would Satan want Bibles to cover the earth with the power of
God's name it them?

The removal of God the Father's name
Grailhunter’s Corner

The removal of God the Son's name
Grailhunter’s Corner

You are apparently not aware of the Bibles that do contain God’s name (in English for English speakers) Psalm 83:18.

 

[Grailhunter]

You are apparently not aware of the Bibles that do contain God’s name (in English for English speakers) Psalm 83:18.

I am aware of some recent Bibles that have God's name and have one. I collect Bibles.

At one time God's name appeared nearly 6,000 time in the Hebrew Bible.
Now when you see the word God or Lord in the Old Testament...that is where His name use to be and the sentence structure rearranged to accommodate the deletion.

 

[Aunty Jane]

I am aware of some recent Bibles that have God's name and have one. I collect Bibles.

At one time God's name appeared nearly 6,000 time in the Hebrew Bible.
Now when you see the word God or Lord in the Old Testament...that is where His name use to be and the sentence structure rearranged to accommodate the deletion.

When the OT has the LORD in capitals, that is where the divine name is missing. Nowhere is that more ridiculous that in Exodus 3:15.

I made a small list of translations that use the divine name...
The ASV....Darby.....Holman....Lexham....Young's Literal and the NWT. A couple of those translate Yahweh, others Jehovah.
Perhaps you need to add to your collection?

 

[Aunty Jane]

This had nothing to do with angels....the sons of God were not angels because they could reproduce.

When angels in the past materialized as men, they sat and ate and drank with their hosts. Why could they not also engage in other works of the flesh? "The sons of God" in Genesis ch 6 are rebel angels, otherwise what was so special about them noticing the beautiful daughters of men and taking wives for themselves? Humans had been doing that for over 1600 years.

The offspring of that unnatural union were freakish monsters of gigantic size and with mean dispositions. The Nephilim had to be removed because they had no right to exist, and were ruining life on earth with their violent and licentious ways.....but their errant fathers also needed to be sent back to the spirit realm, where they were put under restraint, never said to materialize again. Instead they possessed people by inhabiting their bodies. Do you understand why God took such drastic action?

The flood tells us about the amazing properties of the most miraculous substance on the planet....water. Only air breathing creatures perished.

Humans are never called "sons of God", with the exception of two, who were created directly by God.....Adam and Jesus.
The rebel angels were now sinful like mankind, but because of possessing more power, the depth of their wickedness could rub off on weak willed humans to an unimaginable degree, and completely derail God's purpose. (Jude 6)

Where does the word "inhuman" come from? It means "not human" or something that is "outside of normal human behavior".
1 John 5:19...
"We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one."
The evil one has minions who are as powerful as he is. They are the source of all things "inhuman".

God has many powers but the miraculous powers of angels are limited or they would appear to be as Gods and they would be worshiped. No example of angels transforming to animals.

Which is why none of them were permitted to give their names.
The incident in Judges 13:19-23 reinforces that point. Angels could have sought worship like satan did, but the faithful ones were content in their position and in their humble service to God.

Babylonian...LOL...Got to keep your time periods straight. Those Babylonian astrologers as you call them, were the first humans to worship Christ and gave Him a full treasure to assist His life. And not that the Magi were nationalized but their closest association was with Persia and Alexandra, Egypt.

The magi did not "worship" Jesus. Obeisance is not worship. They were worshippers of other gods, so why would they need to worship the God of the Jews? All they said was that he was a King, not a god.
Why would Herod say that he wanted to worship the child too? Did Herod think he was a god....or that he was simply a threat to his dynasty?
Why would God bring pagan practicers of magic to give gifts to his son? His law forbade such practices. He revealed the birth of Christ to Jewish shepherds. The magi didn't show up for a couple of years.

All it takes is an understanding the word theos! LOL Exactly and all that has to happen in the Hebrew Bible.

In Hebrew "God" is "'ĕlōhîm" which, according to Strongs, is applied to....

1. "(plural)
   1. rulers, judges
      
      
   2. divine ones
      
      
   3. angels
      
      
   4. gods
2. (plural intensive - singular meaning)
   1. god, goddess
      
      
   2. godlike one
      
      
   3. works or special possessions of God
      
      
   4. the (true) God
      
      
   5. God"

Seems like it means the same in Greek.....not pertaining exclusively to THE God, Yahweh. Jesus, under that definition can also be a called "god".
Jesus told the Pharisees that Jehovah himself called the Judges in Israel "gods", so calling himself "God's son" was not blasphemy. (John 10:31-36)

The English word for Satan can mean whatever we make it.
The Hebrew word for Satan....besides it being his name....means mostly accuser....by God's request.....prosecutor Job and Zechariah.
In usage....when the English word would be enemy.....the Hebrew Bible sometimes uses the word Satan....as advisory.

The "Adversary" in the Hebrew scriptures is an opposer. What he did to Job proves that he has evil intent. How is this not obvious when he stepped up his campaign at the birth of Christ?
Then look at his activities in the days of Jesus' ministry. Demon possession was rife.

God said not to use His name in vain.

That is quite true, but that is not why the Jews stopped using it.
Turns out that the Jews were making frivolous oaths in Jehovah's name and not honoring them. So instead of chasing up all the offenders and judging them under the Law, the religious leaders, under some imagined pretext, removed the name from their speech because it was easier than having to do something about the many breaches of God's Law which were taking place. The lazy man's solution, whilst still feigning 'righteousness'.

What sense would it make for God not to want anyone to know His name or say His name in reverence. So why did they remove God the Father's name and God the Son's name completely from the Old and New Testaments!

I guess you have to take into account the fact that the Jews brought such reproach on God's name over their history, that perhaps it was God himself who prompted the action they took......it served his purpose as well, not to have his name attached to such willful sinners. (Isaiah 63:10; Romans 2:24)

 

[Grailhunter]

When the OT has the LORD in capitals, that is where the divine name is missing. Nowhere is that more ridiculous that in Exodus 3:15.

I made a small list of translations that use the divine name...
The ASV....Darby.....Holman....Lexham....Young's Literaland the NWT. A couple of those translate Yahweh, others Jehovah.
Perhaps you need to add to your collection?

I have the HCSB by Holman.

Sacred Name Bible is suppose to come out with a special edition and I will get it next.

 

[Grailhunter]

When angels in the past materialized as men, they sat and ate and drank with their hosts. Why could they not also engage in other works of the flesh? "The sons of God" in Genesis ch 6 are rebel angels, otherwise what was so special about them noticing the beautiful daughters of men and taking wives for themselves? Humans had been doing that for over 1600 years.

Angels cannot reproduce.

Which is why none of them were permitted to give their names.
The incident in Judges 13:19-23 reinforces that point. Angels could have sought worship like satan did, but the faithful ones were content in their position and in their humble service to God.

Right...but I am not talking about seeking worship....I am saying they were not given the powers of God because people would have a tendency to worship those of such powers. Angel are mostly messengers....they do not breed. The sons of God are a different creation and the sons of God scriptures are generally misinterpreted.

 

[Grailhunter]

The magi did not "worship" Jesus. Obeisance is not worship.

proskuneó: to do reverence to
Original Word: προσκυνέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: proskuneó
Phonetic Spelling: (pros-koo-neh'-o)
Definition: to do reverence to
Usage: I go down on my knees to, do obeisance to, worship.

Matthew 2:11 And they came into the house and saw the Child with Mary His mother; and they fell down and worshiped Him; and opening their treasures they presented to Him gifts of gold and frankincense and myrrh.

Matthew 8:2 And behold, a leper came and worshiped Him, saying, “Lord, if You are willing, You can make me clean.”

Matthew 9:18 While he spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him, saying, My daughter is even now dead: but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall live.

Matthew 14:33 Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.

Matthew 15:25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.

Matthew 28:9 And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.

Matthew 28:17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.

Luke 24:52 And they worshiped Him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy,

John 4:20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.

John 9:38 And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.

Act 10: 25-26 And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him. But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man.

Revelation 5:14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.

Revelation 7:11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,

Revelation 19:4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

Revelation 16:2...19:20...20:4 are about worshipping the beast

This is the word most often used in the NT for worshipped. Some translations interpret the word....in some scriptures...by describing the physical posture of worshipping. So by definition and scriptural expression....it is the word used for worshipped.