One of the Best Explanations I've seen on Satan's sin.

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I have always read it was pride, and that is true, but I was always curious as to how this was begun.

I was studying Ezekiel 28 today, and using David Guzik's Bible Commentary, and read this:


"Satan's desire to exalt himself above his associates (Isaiah 14:13-14) led to some kind of violence. This has first reference to some kind of battle in heaven (as in Revelation 12:7), but also to violence against humanity made in the image of God (John 10:10). i. This violence against humanity is perhaps explained by the idea that Satan rejected God’s plan to create an order of beings made in His image (Genesis 1:26), who would be beneath the angels in dignity (Hebrews 2:6-7a; 2 Peter 2:11), yet would be served by angels in the present (Hebrews 1:14; 2:7-8; Psalm 91:11-12) and would one day be lifted in honor and status above the angels (1 Corinthians 6:3; 1 John 3:2). Satan wanted to be the highest among all creatures, equal to God in glory and honor, and the plan to create man would eventually put men above angels. He was apparently able to persuade one-third of the angelic beings to join him in his rebellion (Revelation 12:3-4, 7, and 9)"

Ezekiel Chapter 28 Commentary

This makes a great deal of sense to me. Wonder what you folks think about it?

Satan fell before man was created.
his testing/corrupting humankind is secondary.
in part the creation, fall & redemption of mankind is an answer by God to the affront Satan makes to God in corrupting 1/3 of the angels, all of whom pre-exist mankind.
 

Grailhunter

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Satan fell before man was created.
his testing/corrupting humankind is secondary.
in part the creation, fall & redemption of mankind is an answer by God to the affront Satan makes to God in corrupting 1/3 of the angels, all of whom pre-exist mankind.

You guys really need to come up with a timestamp on that.
Or a scripture that says the fall occurred ______________
 

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You guys really need to come up with a timestamp on that.
Or a scripture that says the fall occurred ______________

Ezekiel 28

he was placed in Eden, covered with every precious gem, and walking among the fiery stones.
now go back to Genesis 1-2 and, do you see Eden described as fiery stones and minerals? or as plant & animal life?

and go to Isaiah 45:18 & read that God did not create the earth void.
then go back to Genesis 1:2, which comes after verse 1, and ask why the earth is 'void' and covered in water? how did this come to be if it wasn't created void? do we have any other examples in scripture of God covering the earth with water? oh yeah, Genesis 7. in judgement.
so finding that an earth covered in water is an earth under judgement, ask what could have been judged before the creation of plants and living souls?

yes, you land in a gap theory. but the alternative is pay these things no attention.
 

post

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Now in the story of Job, there appears to be no animosity between God and Satan.

srsly??

why is Satan trying to tempt Job into cursing God?
because Satan is so cool with God???
 

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there is not anything to suggest that it was unusual for Satan to enter the presence of the Lord

wow

why does it say, "and Satan also was with them" ?
what's that there for? is it your opinion that this is superfluous unnecessary scripture?

why does God ask Satan, in front of all the other angels, where he has been?
do you imagine that omniscient God doesn't know the answer to this question?
since God already knows, why is He making Satan confess the answer?
who is there listening? and what is the significance to them of Satan being questioned & having to openly confess the answer?

don't read the Bible too quickly.
ask questions, think, meditate and study.
 

post

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The bottom line, there is nothing in this story to suggest that it occurs after the fall of the angels....and does not define Satan as the devil.

wow

his very name in Job is "The Adversary"
read chapters 1 & 2 again, very slowly.
is The Adversary for God or against God?
is he glorifying God or impugning God's character?
 

JohnPaul

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There are a lot of Misconceptions caused by preconceived notions and misinformation regarding these topics.
Job happened after Satan original rebellion and fall?
You can go outside the Bible and read information about the fall of angels. But the information differs, which includes a war.
If you have a biblical timestamp as to when the "fall of the angels" occurred ..there is a lot of people that would like to know.

The story of Job has Satan presenting himself before God.....some presume that is before His throne and some say the Holy Court of God....I think that is Middle Ages....as in the King's court. There is really nothing to suggest in Job that there hostilities between God and Satan at that time.


Since the Israelites did not know of Hell and were not threatened with Hell and still to this day do not believe in a devil or Hell, what they had as a destination was Sheol. Gathered with their fathers there. Their understanding of that was limited because God never explained Sheol to them....but it is a third destination. Nor does the Bible say it was closed so debates around if it is still a possible destination continue. It is never described as a place of punishment and the Jews do not believe in a place of punishment so there are those that believe it was Sheol that Christ was talking about on the cross when He told the thief that he would be with Him in paradise today. Particularly since the scriptures do not suggest that Christ ascended to His Father or went to Heaven before the resurrection.

Then you have the Lake of Fire....something else that is not explained thoroughly. Is the Lake of Fire a destination or a portal of types to Hell? It is certainly a punishment but its functions are not defined. Is it a fourth possible destination? Good discussion?



So it is a no brainier that it happened after the fall of angels? Is this biblical? If you enter the book of Job with preconceived notions it is difficult to understand what is happening there. Keep in mind that the Israelites then and Jews today do not consider Satan as a devil. Now the Bible says in Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. (And I want to point out that the Bible never defines the sons of God as angels...they are heavenly beings that have the ability to reproduce....that is more or less a different category of heavenly beings.)

Now in the story of Job, there appears to be no animosity between God and Satan. If it did, the Israelites and Jews would have believed that Satan was an enemy of God....a devil. From what we can glean from the bible is that Satan was one of the top angels. (Another misconception is that Lucifer is another name for Satan. The word Lucifer is a Latin word...that St. Jerome placed in the Hebrew text. It had no business being there because the Latin language did not exist during the Old Testament time period. It is one of many insertions into the scriptures of common and or personal beliefs of the translators. Lucifer is Latin for Venus....as in the planet....The actual scriptures are speaking of "dawn of the morning" the morning star....the planet Venus is the morning and evening star....and the scriptures are actually speaking of a King, not Satan. The belief that Lucifer is another name for Satan is one of Christianity's most prolific misconceptions.)

To analyze the rest of Job, there is not anything to suggest that it was unusual for Satan to enter the presence of the Lord, some think it was His throne room or the "Holy Court of God".... a Middle Ages concept of the king's court. There is nothing in Job to suggest that God and Satan were adversaries at the time of this event. From the discription.....at the time....it appears that Satan's job or something that he did, was to roam the earth analyzing the righteousness of Mankind....strange at it seems. And then as the story unfolds, God points out His servant Job...describing him as blameless and upright, even one of a kind and God fearing, turning away from evil. And Satan points out why he is so good. So God and Satan decide to test him....and it goes south from there. And from there we can analyze the rest of the story because there is a lot to analyze.

The bottom line, there is nothing in this story to suggest that it occurs after the fall of the angels....and does not define Satan as the devil. Now when, and how, and why Satan turns against God and he and his angels are driven out of heaven is not clearly defined in the Bible, again the Bible does not tell us the when, the how, and the why of it all. All we know is that by the time of the New Testament period...Satan enters the storyline as a devil and an enemy of God and He and Hell are a threat to Mankind....it is most probably the reason that the term "Saved" was given to the process of Salvation.
Great explanation Grailhunter, so we are deceived in thinking that the war in heaven when Lucifer rebelled against God, is a misconception and that Lucifer was not the top Angel who rebelled against God, but the planet Venus, the morning star, that it was a misuse of words because the Latin language did not exist at the time of the Old Testament? So who was Satan and where was Satan at the time of the war in heaven?
 

Grailhunter

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Ezekiel 28

he was placed in Eden, covered with every precious gem, and walking among the fiery stones.
now go back to Genesis 1-2 and, do you see Eden described as fiery stones and minerals? or as plant & animal life?

and go to Isaiah 45:18 & read that God did not create the earth void.
then go back to Genesis 1:2, which comes after verse 1, and ask why the earth is 'void' and covered in water? how did this come to be if it wasn't created void? do we have any other examples in scripture of God covering the earth with water? oh yeah, Genesis 7. in judgement.
so finding that an earth covered in water is an earth under judgement, ask what could have been judged before the creation of plants and living souls?

yes, you land in a gap theory. but the alternative is pay these things no attention.

You got something going on here but I do not see anything about Satan.
 

Grailhunter

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wow

his very name in Job is "The Adversary"
read chapters 1 & 2 again, very slowly.
is The Adversary for God or against God?
is he glorifying God or impugning God's character?

Hebrew for Satan....adversary or accuser....even prosecutor.
King David numbered his army because of his adversary (Satan)....the word does not mean Satan there, it is reflecting David's concern for the strength of his arm against his enemy.
If it was Satan's job to roam the earth and monitor the righteousness of Man, he would be a prosecutor.
If he just walks into God's throne roam that does not suggest an enemy of war. If he was cast out he could not come back....I don't think he had a visa. The tone of the conversation is not suggestive of two enemies.

There is no conversation in the OT, God nor prophet warns anyone of the devil or Hell. Nor is the devil or Hell described. The devil and Hell...very significant....if it was a concern in the OT it would have been discussed.
Again, the Hebrews, Israelites, Jews did not believe in the devil or Hell. To this day, they still do not believe in a devil or Hell. So who does Christian deal with this. Some will say that the Jews never understood the Hebrew Bible!

Now it typical of a newer religion to redefine the older texts...Even the Jews did this as time went on, they redefined things in the OT. But the Christians could not understand how there could not be a devil in the OT so they Christianized the Hebrew Bible to put him there....and reinterpreted the rest. It is typical...LOL...the New Agers think we have no clue what the Old or New Testaments mean.
 

Grailhunter

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Great explanation Grailhunter, so we are deceived in thinking that the war in heaven when Lucifer rebelled against God, is a misconception and that Lucifer was not the top Angel who rebelled against God, but the planet Venus, the morning star, that it was a misuse of words because the Latin language did not exist at the time of the Old Testament? So who was Satan and where was Satan at the time of the war in heaven?

I have no idea how you came up with this from what I said.
Part of being knowledgeable is acknowledging the information that is not there. If you do not, people are tempted to make things up or try to connect really fuzzy dots to come up with a picture.

Yes the word Lucifer comes from the Latin and yes it means Venus....the goddess or the planet. And no, there was no honest reason to translate it in the Old Testament or to bring it into the English.

Post 72 explains a lot about Satan and the Old Testament.

The war between God and Satan.....the fall of angels.....when did it happen? Why did it happen? What are the details of the war? The fall, the cast out....did they go to earth? Did they go to Hell? Was the devil and the demons scurrying around tempting and causing trouble? Were they locked up in Hell? When was Hell made? If he was locked up.... when and why did God let him out to mess with people in the New Testament? These questions do not have good biblically answers. So we have to admit that or you will see people going back and rewriting and reinterpreting the Old Testament.

Some believe that Satan was an important angel....from their speculations ensue.

The first warning we get about the devil....Satan....is in the New Testament.
There are like 400 years between the testaments....did the fall occur then? We do not know.
Some speculate but that information is not in the Bible.
We are talking about a devil in the Old Testament, that would be significant.
We are talking about Hell in the Old Testament, that would be significant.
We are talking about a war between God and Satan and angels, that would be significant.
We are talking about the devil and demons scurrying around in the Old Testament, that would be significant.

But that is not defined in described or defined in the OT. And the final summary is that the Jews do not believe in Hell...or the devil, so they do not believe in the fall of angels.

So we do not have a time stamp for the fall. Satan was an angel and what he did was described in job. Was he a tester and or an observer of righteousness, an accuser, or a prosecutor, or all of it? It appears in Job, that these may have been Satan's assignment ....to back this up we can look at....Zechariah chapter 3 where Satan is accusing Joshua before God. Of course God disagrees. So God judged in favor of Job and Joshua.
 

JohnPaul

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I have no idea how you came up with this from what I said.
Part of being knowledgeable is acknowledging the information that is not there. If you do not, people are tempted to make things up or try to connect really fuzzy dots to come up with a picture.

Yes the word Lucifer comes from the Latin and yes it means Venus....the goddess or the planet. And no, there was no honest reason to translate it in the Old Testament or to bring it into the English.

Post 72 explains a lot about Satan and the Old Testament.

The war between God and Satan.....the fall of angels.....when did it happen? Why did it happen? What are the details of the war? The fall, the cast out....did they go to earth? Did they go to Hell? Was the devil and the demons scurrying around tempting and causing trouble? Were they locked up in Hell? When was Hell made? If he was locked up.... when and why did God let him out to mess with people in the New Testament? These questions do not have good biblically answers. So we have to admit that or you will see people going back and rewriting and reinterpreting the Old Testament.

Some believe that Satan was an important angel....from their speculations ensue.

The first warning we get about the devil....Satan....is in the New Testament.
There are like 400 years between the testaments....did the fall occur then? We do not know.
Some speculate but that information is not in the Bible.
We are talking about a devil in the Old Testament, that would be significant.
We are talking about Hell in the Old Testament, that would be significant.
We are talking about a war between God and Satan and angels, that would be significant.
We are talking about the devil and demons scurrying around in the Old Testament, that would be significant.

But that is not defined in described or defined in the OT. And the final summary is that the Jews do not believe in Hell...or the devil, so they do not believe in the fall of angels.

So we do not have a time stamp for the fall. Satan was an angel and what he did was described in job. Was he a tester and or an observer of righteousness, an accuser, or a prosecutor, or all of it? It appears in Job, that these may have been Satan's assignment ....to back this up we can look at....Zechariah chapter 3 where Satan is accusing Joshua before God. Of course God disagrees. So God judged in favor of Job and Joshua.
I meant that Lucifer was not the fallen Angel we call Satan, perhaps I confused you, I know the war in Heaven happened, I always thought it was Lucifer who rebelled against God, and that Lucifer is Satan and started the war, but by me reading your post, I'm understanding it wasn't Lucifer, but Satan because the word Lucifer didn't exist during that time that when the name was used it meant the morning star Venus.

I hope this makes more sense, sorry if I confused you and myself.
 
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Cristo Rei

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I have always read it was pride, and that is true, but I was always curious as to how this was begun.

I was studying Ezekiel 28 today, and using David Guzik's Bible Commentary, and read this:


"Satan's desire to exalt himself above his associates (Isaiah 14:13-14) led to some kind of violence. This has first reference to some kind of battle in heaven (as in Revelation 12:7), but also to violence against humanity made in the image of God (John 10:10). i. This violence against humanity is perhaps explained by the idea that Satan rejected God’s plan to create an order of beings made in His image (Genesis 1:26), who would be beneath the angels in dignity (Hebrews 2:6-7a; 2 Peter 2:11), yet would be served by angels in the present (Hebrews 1:14; 2:7-8; Psalm 91:11-12) and would one day be lifted in honor and status above the angels (1 Corinthians 6:3; 1 John 3:2). Satan wanted to be the highest among all creatures, equal to God in glory and honor, and the plan to create man would eventually put men above angels. He was apparently able to persuade one-third of the angelic beings to join him in his rebellion (Revelation 12:3-4, 7, and 9)"

Ezekiel Chapter 28 Commentary

This makes a great deal of sense to me. Wonder what you folks think about it?

Hi Cass... What kind of bird is that on your avatar, with that huge bill???

I think that interpretation is generally the one believed most most Christians
 

Aunty Jane

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There is no conversation in the OT, God nor prophet warns anyone of the devil or Hell. Nor is the devil or Hell described. The devil and Hell...very significant....if it was a concern in the OT it would have been discussed.
Moses wrote the book of Job during Israel’s wandering in the wilderness. It is one of the oldest books in the Hebrew Bible. Since it says that there was “no ones like him in all the earth” it is apparent that Job lived well after the time of Abraham, who was uniquely described as “God's friend”. This places Job at a time after the death of Joseph, but before the time of Moses.

Job’s name means “Object of Hostility” or "Hated", and his experiences recorded in this account answer two important questions....”Why do innocent people suffer?” And “Why does God allow suffering and wickedness?”

We have the complete Bible today, which is something the ancient Jews did not have. The identity of the “original serpent” mentioned in Genesis is not clearly identified until Revelation 12:7-12.

Again, the Hebrews, Israelites, Jews did not believe in the devil or Hell. To this day, they still do not believe in a devil or Hell. So who does Christian deal with this. Some will say that the Jews never understood the Hebrew Bible!
What the Jews did, or did not believe is inconsequential as we know that they were incorrigibly flawed in their understanding of scripture anyway. How else could they have missed their own Messiah and introduced man-made traditions that supplanted scripture? (Matthew 15:7-9)

Jesus and his apostles cleared up any misunderstandings the disciples may have had concerning their Messiah.

Now it typical of a newer religion to redefine the older texts...Even the Jews did this as time went on, they redefined things in the OT. But the Christians could not understand how there could not be a devil in the OT so they Christianized the Hebrew Bible to put him there....and reinterpreted the rest. It is typical...LOL...the New Agers think we have no clue what the Old or New Testaments mean.
Are you serious? Jesus was the promised Messiah, which he and the apostles proved scripturally to those who wanted to listen. The Hebrew writings were the only scripture they had. (2 Timothy 3:16-17)

The original "serpent" in Eden was identified as the one who tempted Eve in the garden. No ambiguity there at all.

Job's experience was to demonstrate the limits of faith that an imperfect human is capable of enduring.....nothing could sway this man's faith in his God and his absolute trust in his ability to save him out of those dire straights, (the origins of which he was not privy to) even if it was by death. Since he believed in the resurrection, he knew that death was not the end of life. (Job 14:14-15)

Job was not the only man tested if you read what the devil actually said concerning him....
"And Jehovah said to Satan: “Have you taken note of my servant Job?
Jehovah was taking note of the fact that satan was already observing Job's faithfulness and may well have already been plotting a plan of attack to undo him?


"There is no one like him on the earth. He is an upright man of integrity, fearing God and shunning what is bad. He is still holding firmly to his integrity, even though you try to incite me against him to destroy him for no reason.” 4 But Satan answered Jehovah: “Skin for skin. A man will give everything that he has for his life. 5 But, for a change, stretch out your hand and strike his bone and flesh, and he will surely curse you to your very face.”
(Job 2:3-5)

What do we see here? Since God was not responsible for any of Job's trials, even though incited by the devil to afflict him.....God confidently gave the man over to satan to test him as he saw fit, but he put provisos in place for each of them. Satan was permitted to go so far...and no further. But in the second instance we see something different in satan's approach that demonstrates why God allows the righteous to suffer....

Satan said "Skin for skin. A man will give everything that he has for his life." He did not say that Job would give everything he had to save his life"....but extended it to "everything a man has he will give in exchange for his life"...that, by extension, includes all of us. If we have the same faith as Job, no matter how severe the trial, we will maintain integrity as Job did, not abandoning God or cursing him when the going gets tough.
Proverbs 27:11 gives us the principal reason...."Be wise, my son, and make my heart rejoice, So that I can make a reply to him who taunts me."

This is how we answer satan's challenge when he taunts God because of our actions and beliefs. Do we let satan win, or do we stick to God no matter what?

What is not widely known is the end result of Job's trails....

Job 42:12-16....
"So Jehovah blessed the last part of Job’s life more than the beginning. . . .He also came to have seven more sons and three more daughters. 14 He named the first daughter Je·miʹmah, the second Ke·ziʹah, and the third Kerʹen-hapʹpuch. 15 No women in all the land were as beautiful as Job’s daughters, and their father gave them an inheritance along with their brothers.
16 After this Job lived for 140 years, and he saw his children and his grandchildren—four generations. 17 Finally Job died, after a long and satisfying life."


Since Job believed in the resurrection, he will be joined by all 20 of his children in the new world to come, no doubt happy to have played a part in proving that satan is a liar....that we do not serve God for selfish reasons. Job represents all of us, but only if we act like he did.
 
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Grailhunter

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Moses wrote the book of Job during Israel’s wandering in the wilderness. It is one of the oldest books in the Hebrew Bible. Since it says that there was “no ones like him in all the earth” it is apparent that Job lived well after the time of Abraham, who was uniquely described as “God's friend”. This places Job at a time after the death of Joseph, but before the time of Moses.

Job’s name means “Object of Hostility” or "Hated", and his experiences recorded in this account answer two important questions....”Why do innocent people suffer?” And “Why does God allow suffering and wickedness?”

We have the complete Bible today, which is something the ancient Jews did not have. The identity of the “original serpent” mentioned in Genesis is not clearly identified until Revelation 12:7-12.


What the Jews did, or did not believe is inconsequential as we know that they were incorrigibly flawed in their understanding of scripture anyway. How else could they have missed their own Messiah and introduced man-made traditions that supplanted scripture? (Matthew 15:7-9)

Jesus and his apostles cleared up any misunderstandings the disciples may have had concerning their Messiah.


Jennifer Love Hewitt Ariella Ferrera which he and the apostles proved scripturally to those who wanted to listen. The Hebrew writings were the only scripture they had. (2 Timothy 3:16-17)

The original "serpent" in Eden was identified as the one who tempted Eve in the garden. No ambiguity there at all.

Job's experience was to demonstrate the limits of faith that an imperfect human is capable of enduring.....nothing could sway this man's faith in his God and his absolute trust in his ability to save him out of those dire straights, (the origins of which he was not privy to) even if it was by death. Since he believed in the resurrection, he knew that death was not the end of life. (Job 14:14-15)

Job was not the only man tested if you read what the devil actually said concerning him....
"And Jehovah said to Satan: “Have you taken note of my servant Job?
Jehovah was taking note of the fact that satan was already observing Job's faithfulness and may well have already been plotting a plan of attack to undo him?


"There is no one like him on the earth. He is an upright man of integrity, fearing God and shunning what is bad. He is still holding firmly to his integrity, even though you try to incite me against him to destroy him for no reason.” 4 But Satan answered Jehovah: “Skin for skin. A man will give everything that he has for his life. 5 But, for a change, stretch out your hand and strike his bone and flesh, and he will surely curse you to your very face.”
(Job 2:3-5)

What do we see here? Since God was not responsible for any of Job's trials, even though incited by the devil to afflict him.....God confidently gave the man over to satan to test him as he saw fit, he put provisos in place for each of them. Satan was permitted to go so far...and no further. But in the second instance we see something different in satan's approach that demonstrates why God allows the righteous to suffer....

Satan said "Skin for skin. A man will give everything that he has for his life." He did not say that Job would give everything he had to save his life"....but extended it to "everything a man has he will give in exchange for his life"...that, by extension, includes all of us. If we have the same faith as Job, no matter how severe the trial, we will maintain integrity as Job did, not abandoning God or cursing him when the going gets tough.
Proverbs 27:11 gives us the principal reason...."Be wise, my son, and make my heart rejoice, So that I can make a reply to him who taunts me."

This is how we answer satan's challenge when he taunts God because of our actions and beliefs. Do we let satan win, or do we stick to God no matter what?

What is not widely known is the end result of Job's trails....

Job 42:12-16....
"So Jehovah blessed the last part of Job’s life more than the beginning. . . .He also came to have seven more sons and three more daughters. 14 He named the first daughter Je·miʹmah, the second Ke·ziʹah, and the third Kerʹen-hapʹpuch. 15 No women in all the land were as beautiful as Job’s daughters, and their father gave them an inheritance along with their brothers.
16 After this Job lived for 140 years, and he saw his children and his grandchildren—four generations. 17 Finally Job died, after a long and satisfying life."


Since Job believed in the resurrection, he will be joined by all 20 of his children in the new world to come, no doubt happy to have played a part in proving that satan is a liar....that we do not serve God for selfish reasons. Job represents all of us, but only if we act like he did.

Job is the proof that at that time, God and Satan were not enemies.

And yes new religions will reinterpret...New Age groups pretty much think the Jews and mainstream Christians do not understand the Bible....

Are you serious? Jesus was the promised Messiah

If you are going to get into this deep a study you need to dig a little deeper.

There cannot be a person, place, or thing in the Bible that starts with a "J" They are all "Y" and no one knows were the word Jesus came from. Yahweh....Yeshua....Yob....Yacob....etc.

The prophesies tell of a human warlord king that would take down the Jewish oppressors and rebuild the temple where sacrifices would continue forever and the kingdom would last forever and the Mosaic Law would be followed by all on earth forever. Different theme all together. Christ is our Messiah, Lord, God and Savior....But "something" changed....that is why the Jews had so many issues with Christ saying He was the Son of God.
 

Aunty Jane

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Job is the proof that at that time, God and Satan were not enemies.
I’m sorry what???
dunno
The serpent who deceived the woman, and slandered God by calling him a liar is not an enemy? Are you serious? The one whose influence derailed God’s entire purpose for humanity, introducing sin and death, is still a son in good standing in your opinion?
He is inciting the most faithful man on earth to see God as causing his calamities for no reason whatsoever, and to sabotage his faith..... and there is no animosity between them? Good grief!

You are apparently not reading the same scripture that I am....
what


If you are going to get into this deep a study you need to dig a little deeper.
I think one of us does anyway....
unsure


There cannot be a person, place, or thing in the Bible that starts with a "J" They are all "Y" and no one knows were the word Jesus came from. Yahweh....Yeshua....Yob....Yacob....etc.
Oh please, that old chestnut? Would you like every single English Bible translation in the world to be scrapped just because English translates “Y” as “J”? Nit picking nonsense. You don’t think that God speaks all languages? You think he does not recognize his own name in English? Who invented language in the first place? Do you call Jesus Yeshua? Please.....

The prophesies tell of a human warlord king that would take down the Jewish oppressors and rebuild the temple where sacrifices would continue forever and the kingdom would last forever and the Mosaic Law would be followed by all on earth forever. Different theme all together. Christ is our Messiah, Lord, God and Savior....But "something" changed....that is why the Jews had so many issues with Christ saying He was the Son of God.
Really? The Messiah was never going to BE God....he was going to be sent by God. (John 17:3)
Nothing about the Messianic prophesies changed except the Jewish interpretation of them. In Jewish expectation, they had visions of their swashbuckling Messiah coming to rescue them from the Roman yoke, liberating them and re-establishing God’s kingdom in Jerusalem and elevating the Jews as Kings and priests in their God given bit of geography.

Jesus proved to the Samaritan woman at the well that there was no geographical location where people would worship God in the future.

The liberation foretold was from the Pharisees and their corrupt teachings. “The lost sheep of the house of Israel” responded to Jesus’ teachings because they got the sense of them.....but because he castigated the Pharisees on every occasion, they plotted to kill him....silencing him, like they did with the prophets that went before him. (Matthew 23)

The Pharisees hated Jesus because he tore down the ivory tower that they had stationed themselves in and consigned them to Gehenna! That is where ‘the weeping and the gnashing of teeth’ began. It wasn’t the prophesies that were wrong, but the fact that they only saw what they wanted to see in them. Jesus could not be the Messiah because he didn’t elevate them to the status to which they elevated themselves.

Right from the beginning the Jews proved to be the best example of how NOT to worship Jehovah.
We learn more from their bad example than we learn from the good examples of the faithful ones in the Bible.

Christendom of today is a mirror image of apostate Judaism....with many “Christians” imagining that they will be going to heaven.....they will be sadly mistaken IMO. (Matthew 7:21-23)
 

Grailhunter

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The serpent who deceived the woman, and slandered God by calling him a liar is not an enemy?

I have explained this before....
Drawing definitive conclusions from vague metaphoric stories can cause false beliefs.
Never the less, it is human nature.
The talking serpent....do we have a talking serpent in Christianity?
Is Satan a serpent?
When Satan was tempting Christ on the mountain....was that a talking serpent.
Does the name Satan appear in Genesis?
Do the Jews believe that was Satan?
If the Serpent was Satan....did God know that? Why not say it.
Is there a scripture that says the words....and Satan is a devil?

Christianity believes things about the Hebrew Bible that are not there.
What are the prophets? Did God give them information? If so, and they knew that Satan was a devil, they would have made that clear...an entity that is the enemy of God and man. Front page news wouldn't you think?

If the prophets knew that the messiah would be the Son of God...a God, that would fill the prophetic book of the Hebrew Bible. Dancing in the streets and shouting from the mountain tops. Whatever else they had to say....what else would trump that? Fill the prophetic book! Nearly every page. What it would not be, is something that you would have to comb the scriptures to find something that would suggest He would be a God.

The issue is that we know that Satan became a devil and most do not understand why that was not made clear in the Hebrew Bible.
When did the fall of the angels occur? When did Satan became a devil? That is a debate...but it is not going to be resolved from the information in the Hebrew Bible.

It is easy to call all the Jews stupid....but it is not the case....Paul and the rest of the Apostles were Jews...not stupid. They came to know that Satan was a devil...but they did not tell us when the fall occurred or when Satan became a devil.

Jesus proved to the Samaritan woman at the well that there was no geographical location where people would worship God in the future.

You can explain that? But that still does not erase the fact that the prophets saw an eternal temple.

Oh please, that old chestnut? Would you like every single English Bible translation in the world to be scrapped just because English translates “Y” as “J”? Nit picking nonsense. You don’t think that God speaks all languages? You think he does not recognize his own name in English? Who invented language in the first place? Do you call Jesus Yeshua? Please.....

Nit picking? God's name nit picking? In my beliefs, God's name is important and deserves to be in the Bible. Paul said there was only one name that could be called upon for salvation. A little important. The J slam was part of the effort to remove God's name from the Old and New Testament. The name of God the Father or God the Son is no longer in the Bible. I have a problem with that.
 
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JohnPaul

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Nit picking? God's name nit picking? In my beliefs, God's name is important and deserves to be in the Bible. Paul said there was only one name that could be called upon for salvation. A little important. The J slam was part of the effort to remove God's name from the Old and New Testament. The name of God the Father or God the Son is no longer in the Bible. I have a problem with that.

Is that one of these new liberal Bibles that have changed everything in it because it doesn't fit with the politically correct society, soon they'll add to it that homosexuality is ok.