Only one rapture of all the saints, and only one second coming of Christ

[Scott Downey]

Bible Gateway passage: Revelation 19 - New King James Version

Heaven Exults over Babylon - After these things I heard a loud voice of a great multitude in heaven, saying, “Alleluia! Salvation and glory and honor and power belong to the Lord our God! For true and righteous are His judgments, because He has judged the great harlot who corrupted the earth...

www.biblegateway.com

Christ on a White Horse​

11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He [e]had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in [f]fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a [g]sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:

KING OF KINGS AND
LORD OF LORDS.

The Beast and His Armies Defeated​

17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, “Come and gather together for the [h]supper of the great God, 18 that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, [i]free and slave, both small and great.”

19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. 20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.

 

[brightfame52]

So...you were never a man of sin revealed as every man is--am I speaking with Jesus?

Yes the elect were once as controlled by the devil as the confirmed non elect were Eph 2:2-3, however they are delivered due to the fact they were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world. Being elect we are effectually called out of it Rev 18:4

4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

 

[Scott Downey]

Yes the elect were once as controlled by the devil as the confirmed non elect were Eph 2:2-3, however they are delivered due to the fact they were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world. Being elect we are effectually called out of it Rev 18:4

4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

Exactly true

Bible Gateway passage: Ephesians 2 - New King James Version

By Grace Through Faith - And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted...

www.biblegateway.com

And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the [a]course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

We were no better than the others, but we were not them. God had a different purpose and plan for us, as He had foreknown us as His own special possession to shower on us the glories of His mercies. And aren't you glad He did that for us!

Ephesians 1
13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who[a] is the [b]guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

 

[Scott Downey]

Ephesians 5
25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her, 26 that He might [a]sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, 27 that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish.

Without Christ , we are nothing. But He knew us before we were born, not everyone has that from God.

Matthew 7:23
And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Cause God knows everything, and He is the Creator, all things are through, to, for, and of God. He fills heaven and earth.

Romans 11:36
For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen.

Bible Gateway passage: John 15 - New King James Version

The True Vine - “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. Abide in Me, and I in...

www.biblegateway.com

The True Vine​

1 “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He [a]takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.

5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you[b] will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you. 8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.

Love and Joy Perfected​

9 “As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love. 10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.

11 “These things I have spoken to you, that My joy may remain in you, and that your joy may be full. 12 This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one’s life for his friends. 14 You are My friends if you do whatever I command you. 15 No longer do I call you servants, for a servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I heard from My Father I have made known to you. 16 You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you. 17 These things I command you, that you love one another.

The World’s Hatred​

18 “If the world hates you, you know that it hated Me before it hated you. 19 If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. 20 Remember the word that I said to you, ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you. If they kept My word, they will keep yours also. 21 But all these things they will do to you for My name’s sake, because they do not know Him who sent Me. 22 If I had not come and spoken to them, they would have no sin, but now they have no excuse for their sin. 23 He who hates Me hates My Father also. 24 If I had not done among them the works which no one else did, they would have no sin; but now they have seen and also hated both Me and My Father. 25 But this happened that the word might be fulfilled which is written in their law, ‘They hated Me without a cause.’

26 “But when the [c]Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me. 27 And you also will bear witness, because you have been with Me from the beginning.

​

 

[rwb]

Of course, Jesus brought the kingdom to the earth, but I believe that the coming in Matthew chapter 24 was His coming in judgement.

God most assuredly did send a final judgment against Israel of Old in 70 AD, but Christ neither returned the second time physically or spiritually then. That's why it makes zero sense to argue Christ actually came in judgment as Preterits argue. What came, just as Christ said it would shortly/soon/was near was the Kingdom of God! Which came not only to Israel of Old, but to all people that whosoever believes in Christ has been born again and through Christ's Spirit within now spiritually have entrance into the heavenly Kingdom of God.

 

[rwb]

If you fully agree Luke 21:27 = the bodily coming of Christ in the end of this age, why would you then divorce Luke 21:31-32 from the coming meant in verse 27 then apply verses 31-32 to the here and now spiritually? You are all over the place if you are doing that. The context pertaining to the kingdom is nigh at hand in Luke 21:31 involves the same coming meant in verse 27, not the here and now spiritually instead.

Luke 21:31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled

Of course there is a separation between the spiritual coming of the Kingdom of God and Christ coming for the second time. To date the separation is around two thousand years!

If you're still waiting for the Kingdom of God to come to man, then you are not listening to or reading what Christ has told us. He even gave us proof that He had come with the Kingdom of God.

Acts 10:38 (KJV) How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

Matthew 12:28 (KJV) But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

Luke 11:20 (KJV) But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.

The reason that anyone would still be waiting for the Kingdom of God to come to man after the cross and resurrection is because the Kingdom of God now in this age of time can only be known and entered through the Spirit of Christ in you. Because the Kingdom of God now is not a physical Kingdom like believers will have when Christ comes again. The Kingdom of God that came with Christ is the Kingdom of God in heaven, and when we have been born again, we have spiritually entered that Kingdom. And because the life we receive through the Spirit of Christ in us is eternal, not even death can take us away from the Kingdom of God.

 

[rwb]

Do you deny the future, literal, visible, coming of Jesus in the heavens?

Matthew 24:30KJV
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Christ shall physically come again for His people. But the Kingdom of God has already come for His people (whosoever have been born again).

 

[CrowCross]

The great apostasia/Departure.

When the christians are gathered and depart with Jesus as the restrainer is removed.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Angle are sent on a mission by Christ, they are angels under authority.
Angels gather both the wicked and the just.

That Matthew 24 is the same gathering event as Mark 13 and as you see, all His people in heaven and on earth are gathered to Him, on that Last Day, angels here are gathering the elect, who are the just, the righteous, the believers, who are on the earth immediately after that great tribulation, and the departed saints of God in heaven.

Matt 24
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His [d]elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13
24 “But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; 25 the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. 26 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then He will send His angels, and gather together His [h]elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.

Angels gathering.
In the rapture, the gathering of the bride, to heaven, Jesus gathers.

You can reframe it for doctrinal purposes, but every time you do, you are pointing to a pretrib rapture where it fits like a glove.
It says what it says.
Jesus is not there....no gathering by Jesus.

Send a friend to the next town to pick up an item.

You are trying to make it into a fib, saying you went also.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Isaiah 65
15 For behold, the Lord will come with fire
And with His chariots, like a whirlwind,
To render His anger with fury,
And His rebuke with flames of fire.

16 For by fire and by His sword
The Lord will judge all flesh;
And the slain of the Lord shall be many.

This is the glorious bodily return, because He meets with all flesh on the earth in judgment of them and many are destroyed, JUST LIKE 2 Thess 1 describes, when HE comes on the DAY of the Lord.

2 Thess 1

God’s Final Judgment and Glory​

3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is fitting, because your faith grows exceedingly, and the love of every one of you all abounds toward each other, 4 so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and [a]tribulations that you endure, 5 which is manifest[b] evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer; 6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with [c]tribulation those who trouble you,

7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who [d]believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

Such a simple question.
A yes or no.
Nothing trick about it.
Pure scripture .
You went into a doctrinal thesis.
Never addressed the question.

This is such a red flag to a tired doctrine.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Make your list and let's explore what it says

All take the mark
Every man, woman and child.
Rev 7
16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Everyone refusing it dies.
Power is given the AC to overcome the saints.
The saints overcome the AC by the blood of the lamb and the word of their testimony and they loved not their lives unto the death.
IOW THEY ALL DIE FROM THEIR TESTIMONY.
Rev 12
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.



Rev13
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.

All dead.
The earth "cleansed" of believers.
Nobody to rapture.

Rev7
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

All dead. A billion nobody can count.
In heaven DURING the trib.



Your doctrine disagrees?

 

[The Light]

I guess we'll find out at the pre-trib rapture/resurrection event.

No need to wait until then to know.

 

[Scott Downey]

All take the mark
Every man, woman and child.
Everyone refusing it dies.
Power is given the AC to overcome the saints.
The saints overcome the AC by the blood of the lamb and the word of their testimony and they loved not their lives unto the death.
IOW THEY ALL DIE FROM THEIR TESTIMONY.

All dead.
The earth "cleansed" of believers.
Nobody to rapture.
Rev7
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

All dead. A billion nobody can count.
In heaven DURING the trib.



Your doctrine disagrees?

Apparently you base yours on visions... while ignoring Christ and the apostle's doctrines.

 

[Scott Downey]

Such a simple question.
A yes or no.
Nothing trick about it.
Pure scripture .
You went into a doctrinal thesis.
Never addressed the question.

This is such a red flag to a tired doctrine.

The only thing that tired about doctrine here is your ignorance, your like that broken clock. Right twice a day, and wrong all the other times.

How long will you despise the teachings of Christ and the apostles?

 

[CrowCross]

No need to wait until then to know.

Is there any reason to assume at the rapture christians will not ascend at the same speed Jesus ascended?

Can you show me in the bible where this rapture speed will occur or not occur? You seem to know the answer judging from your response.

Will the christians simply vanish...drift up ....or shoot up like a rocket?

 

[Scott Downey]

All take the mark
Every man, woman and child.
Everyone refusing it dies.
Power is given the AC to overcome the saints.
The saints overcome the AC by the blood of the lamb and the word of their testimony and they loved not their lives unto the death.
IOW THEY ALL DIE FROM THEIR TESTIMONY.

All dead.
The earth "cleansed" of believers.
Nobody to rapture.
Rev7
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

All dead. A billion nobody can count.
In heaven DURING the trib.



Your doctrine disagrees?

And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Prove that this tribulation of the saints is not your experience....or maybe the world loves you...
Prove that Rev 7 is not the tribulations all the saints of God have experienced from the world since the beginning, which includes the final one....
You read Revelation like a movie progressing in a steady timeline, while it is not linear but a broken timeline.
Such as Revelation 6 shows the Last Day on the Day of judgment, yet it is only at chapter 6.

Paul wrote this before your the great tribulation according to your timeline.
1 Thessalonians 3:4
For, in fact, we told you before when we were with you that we would suffer tribulation, just as it happened, and you know.

2 Thessalonians 1:4
so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure,

John 16:33
These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.”

AND these are the saints of God in Revelation, present during your end time great tribulation, why what was wrong with them as they were not raptured first! You pride yourself above them... as you believe you will not see any tribulation.

 

[Scott Downey]

Certainly a great tribulation here in 1675 experienced by the saints

In this episode we read from the 1682 book by Mary Rowlandson, "Narrative of the Captivity and Restoration of Mrs. Mary Rowlandson." This tells of the attack on Lancaster Massachusetts on February 10, 1675 (or 1676) by the Naragansett Abenaki and Wampanoag Indians during King Phillip's war.

 

[The Light]

Yes, heaven and earth at the same gathering, so this is not 2 gatherings, just one.

Let's check that.

1. The Church is gathered from heaven
2. The twelve tribes are gathered from the earth.

That makes two gatherings. But the good news is that both folds are joined together to make one fold.........the great multitude. All return to heaven for the marriage supper.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Make your list and let's explore what it says

Item 2

(This only applies if the Jews are a separate harvest. ( WHICH THEY ARE).)
REV 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

A firstfruits harvest of ethnic messianic Jews has occurred earlier in the chapter. (the 144,000 firstfruits)
Now this is a main harvest of Jews.
Rev 14 , 14.
Jesus SITTING ON A CLOUD. NO HORSES, NO SECOND COMING, NO DEAD RESURRECTED...But rather a fulfillment of prophecy of a Jewish regrafting as a nation, from Romans 9-11.
( btw...I have never seen a postribber understand, or even care to understand Rev 14)

Without a understanding of the PURPOSE of the tribulation, or the purpose of the 2 wives in Gods order, and the purpose of the bride/groom dynamic...the Church, the PURPOSE OF THE RAPTURE, end times is some mechanical blendering of separate thoughts.
And THEY ALL CENTER ....on the trib.
You guys are trib CENTERED.
Obsessed with the supposed fleeing from cave to cave.
Even warning us of THAT EXACT FALSEHOOD.

I already demonstrated with precision, all believers refusing the mark are murdered.

I really do not know what you can come up with to refute so much scripture.

Rapture is very commonly thought of as the gathering of the church when Christ comes for them with His angels

Your not very consistent.

When you add in all these other people caught up to heaven this is not the rapture.

The 'rapture' is when Christ comes for His church, as in gathers them, that is it and is the historical understanding.
Christ only taught one gathering of His people to Himself, and that is at the second coming.

The new understanding adds in lots more raptures.

He taught 2 in mat 24.
2 separate comings.

One AFTER THE FLOOD/ TRIB
ONE BEFORE the flood trib.

Was Jesus wrong?

 

[rebuilder 454]

Bible Gateway passage: Revelation 19 - New King James Version

Heaven Exults over Babylon - After these things I heard a loud voice of a great multitude in heaven, saying, “Alleluia! Salvation and glory and honor and power belong to the Lord our God! For true and righteous are His judgments, because He has judged the great harlot who corrupted the earth...

www.biblegateway.com

Christ on a White Horse​

11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He [e]had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in [f]fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a [g]sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:

KING OF KINGS AND
LORD OF LORDS.

The Beast and His Armies Defeated​

17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, “Come and gather together for the [h]supper of the great God, 18 that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, [i]free and slave, both small and great.”

19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. 20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.

Yep, no rapture there.
The second coming
All pretribbers embrace it 100%