Only one rapture of all the saints, and only one second coming of Christ

[Scott Downey]

Item 2

(This only applies if the Jews are a separate harvest. ( WHICH THEY ARE).)
REV 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

A firstfruits harvest of ethnic messianic Jews has occurred earlier in the chapter. (the 144,000 firstfruits)
Now this is a main harvest of Jews.
Rev 14 , 14.
Jesus SITTING ON A CLOUD. NO HORSES, NO SECOND COMING, NO DEAD RESURRECTED...But rather a fulfillment of prophecy of a Jewish regrafting as a nation, from Romans 9-11.
( btw...I have never seen a postribber understand, or even care to understand Rev 14)

Without a understanding of the PURPOSE of the tribulation, or the purpose of the 2 wives in Gods order, and the purpose of the bride/groom dynamic...the Church, the PURPOSE OF THE RAPTURE, end times is some mechanical blendering of separate thoughts.
And THEY ALL CENTER ....on the trib.
You guys are trib CENTERED.
Obsessed with the supposed fleeing from cave to cave.
Even warning us of THAT EXACT FALSEHOOD.

I already demonstrated with precision, all believers refusing the mark are murdered.

I really do not know what you can come up with to refute so much scripture.
He taught 2 in mat 24.
2 separate comings.

One AFTER THE FLOOD/ TRIB
ONE BEFORE the flood trib.

Was Jesus wrong?

He did nothing of the sort.
Your logic and others is terrible and convoluted.

You will experience great tribulation in the future if you live long enough. That is the evidence from history of the church the last 2000 years, you do not live in a bubble, but you do live inside a delusion.

 

[The Light]

And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Prove that this tribulation of the saints is not your experience....or maybe the world loves you...
Prove that Rev 7 is not the tribulations all the saints of God have experienced from the world since the beginning, which includes the final one....

The great tribulation is the tribulation of those days. You are barking up the wrong tree.

Matthew 24
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

[rebuilder 454]

And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Prove that this tribulation of the saints is not your experience....or maybe the world loves you...
Prove that Rev 7 is not the tribulations all the saints of God have experienced from the world since the beginning, which includes the final one....
You read Revelation like a movie progressing in a steady timeline, while it is not linear but a broken timeline.
Such as Revelation 6 shows the Last Day on the Day of judgment, yet it is only at chapter 6.

Paul wrote this before your the great tribulation according to your timeline.
1 Thessalonians 3:4
For, in fact, we told you before when we were with you that we would suffer tribulation, just as it happened, and you know.

2 Thessalonians 1:4
so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure,

John 16:33
These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.”

AND these are the saints of God in Revelation, present during your end time great tribulation, why what was wrong with them as they were not raptured first! You pride yourself above them... as you believe you will not see any tribulation.

Show me where the Bible minimizes the gt in Revelation,to some saints suffering of eons past.

There is a bible ROADBLOCK to those suppositions.
"Tribulation such as the world has never seen, or ever will".

But it gets worse for your theory.
Early on in the book of revelation, we see the martyrs are confined to under the altar and they are not in the general population.
So there you would have tribulation saints that were from some ancient tribulation of eons passed and were murdered for their faith, but these with the dirty robes that no man can number are in the general population of heaven.
So you got 2 separate groups of martyrs, a much smaller group that are confined to under the altar. And then another group of billions and it even says they came out of the great tribulation. So you're gonna have a hard time trying to make that into something else.

 

[The Light]

Is there any reason to assume at the rapture christians will not ascend at the same speed Jesus ascended?

Can you show me in the bible where this rapture speed will occur or not occur? You seem to know the answer judging from your response.

Will the christians simply vanish...drift up ....or shoot up like a rocket?

Christians will just vanish and Jesus will not be seen when He comes for His bride.

However, when He comes at the 6th seal for the second harvest all eyes will see the coming of the Lord. That's when then kings and rich men and great men etc. will try to hide.

 

[Scott Downey]

Yep, no rapture there.
The second coming
All pretribbers embrace it

The great tribulation is the tribulation of those days. You are barking up the wrong tree.

Matthew 24
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Immediately after the tribulation of those days

You just don't like the conclusion of the scriptures...
The people of God are on the earth during the 'great tribulation'
If both of you live long enough, you will be there with them, if your one of God's saints.

Revelation 13
6 Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven. 7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every [a]tribe, tongue, and nation. 8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

 

[rebuilder 454]

He did nothing of the sort.
Your logic and others is terrible and convoluted.

You will experience great tribulation in the future if you live long enough. That is the evidence from history of the church the last 2000 years, you do not live in a bubble, but you do live inside a delusion.

Some general comeback???
You can not unpack it so you threw spitballs at it.

You got nuked, and can not debate me.

 

[CrowCross]

And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Prove that this tribulation of the saints is not your experience....or maybe the world loves you...
Prove that Rev 7 is not the tribulations all the saints of God have experienced from the world since the beginning, which includes the final one....
You read Revelation like a movie progressing in a steady timeline, while it is not linear but a broken timeline.
Such as Revelation 6 shows the Last Day on the Day of judgment, yet it is only at chapter 6.

Paul wrote this before your the great tribulation according to your timeline.
1 Thessalonians 3:4
For, in fact, we told you before when we were with you that we would suffer tribulation, just as it happened, and you know.

2 Thessalonians 1:4
so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure,

John 16:33
These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.”

AND these are the saints of God in Revelation, present during your end time great tribulation, why what was wrong with them as they were not raptured first! You pride yourself above them... as you believe you will not see any tribulation.

Why didn't you include the verses that tell us christians are not destined for the wrath..time of trial... of the tribulation?

Rev 3:10 Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth. Note: Christians are not taking part in the time of Jacobs trouble.

1 Thes 5:3 While people are saying, “Peace and security,” destruction will come upon them suddenly, like labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. Note: Christians are not the they. Christians escape with the rapture.

Heb 9:28 so also Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many; and He will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who eagerly await Him <-----> and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come. 1 Thes 1:10.

 

[ScottA]

Yes the elect were once as controlled by the devil as the confirmed non elect were Eph 2:2-3, however they are delivered due to the fact they were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world. Being elect we are effectually called out of it Rev 18:4

4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

The point was that the "as one man" teachings in the scriptures, identifies "the man of sin" (revealed).

 

[CrowCross]

The people of God are on the earth during the 'great tribulation'

Duh, of course there are....do you think people can't get saved during the tribulation after the rapture?
Perhaps for a day or so ...maybe an hour or two...after the rapture people will remember hearing about the pre-trib rapture as written about in scripture and turn to Christ for their salvation.

 

[rebuilder 454]

He did nothing of the sort.
Your logic and others is terrible and convoluted.

You will experience great tribulation in the future if you live long enough. That is the evidence from history of the church the last 2000 years, you do not live in a bubble, but you do live inside a delusion.

It just hit me.
Are you actually believing there will be future 7yr trib?

 

[Scott Downey]

Some general comeback???
You can not unpack it so you threw spitballs at it.

You got nuked, and can not debate me.

You just don't follow Christ's words or those of His apostles do you...
But you do love a book of disjointed visions, which must be interpreted by God to a person...

Visions are like parables, which are a mystery.

Matthew 13
10 And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?”

11 He answered and said to them, “Because it has been given to you to know the [a]mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. 12 For whoever has, to him more will be given, and he will have abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. 13 Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. 14 And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says:

‘Hearing you will hear and shall not understand,
And seeing you will see and not perceive;
15 For the hearts of this people have grown dull.
Their ears are hard of hearing,
And their eyes they have closed,
Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I [b]should heal them.’

 

[CrowCross]

Christians will just vanish and Jesus will not be seen when He comes for His bride.

Considering Jesus return in the clouds the way He left...and people saw Jesus leave per Acts 1...It sounds like people will see Jesus when He returns.

How long will it take for the pre-trib rapture to complete? Who knows as that depends upon the rate of ascension.

 

[The Light]

Why didn't you include the verses that tell us christians are not destined for the wrath..time of trial... of the tribulation?

The great tribulation is NOT the wrath of God. The great tribulation is when the dragon is killing believers. These believers that are killed during the great tribulation will be mostly of the 12 tribes. They are Jews. When the abomination of desolation is set up, the final 3 and half years of the 70th week of Daniel will begin.

The Church will be in heaven before the great tribulation as we can escape all these things that will come to pass. The great tribulation is the hour of temptation that will come on all the world.

The second coming occurs at the 6th seal. The Lord comes for the second harvest of the fig tree. He removes believers from the earth as believers are not appointed to wrath. The 7th seal is the wrath of God.

The great tribulation and the wrath of God are not the same thing.

 

[Marty fox]

God most assuredly did send a final judgment against Israel of Old in 70 AD, but Christ neither returned the second time physically or spiritually then. That's why it makes zero sense to argue Christ actually came in judgment as Preterits argue. What came, just as Christ said it would shortly/soon/was near was the Kingdom of God! Which came not only to Israel of Old, but to all people that whosoever believes in Christ has been born again and through Christ's Spirit within now spiritually have entrance into the heavenly Kingdom of God.

Christ came in 70AD the same way the Lord came in the verse below, not physically but symbolically in judgement

Isiaah 19:1
A prophecy against Egypt: See, the Lord rides on a swift cloud and is coming to Egypt. The idols of Egypt tremble before him, and the hearts of the Egyptians melt with fear.

 

[ScottA]

Christ shall physically come again for His people. But the Kingdom of God has already come for His people (whosoever have been born again).

There is no "physical" return of Christ (except within the physical bodies of those hear His knock and open the door to Him in spirit). Just read Matthew 24.

 

[The Light]

Immediately after the tribulation of those days

You just don't like the conclusion of the scriptures...
The people of God are on the earth during the 'great tribulation'


Revelation 13
6 Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven. 7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every [a]tribe, tongue, and nation. 8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

You are missing the conclusion of the scriptures.

The people of God that are on the earth during the great tribulation will be mostly Jews.

The Church will be in heaven BEFORE the great tribulation, as we can escape all the things that Jesus lists in Luke 21. We are also told that we will be kept from the hour of temptation that will come upon the whole world.

After the fullness of the Gentiles comes in, part of Israel will have its blindness removed. We are warned not to be ignorant of this mystery.

Romans 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

The 144,000 from twelve tribes will be the first fruits of the second harvest. The second harvest occurs at the 6th seal BEFORE the wrath of God as believers are not appointed to wrath.

 

[ScottA]

Isaiah 65
15 For behold, the Lord will come with fire
And with His chariots, like a whirlwind,
To render His anger with fury,
And His rebuke with flames of fire.

16 For by fire and by His sword
The Lord will judge all flesh;
And the slain of the Lord shall be many.

This is the glorious bodily return, because He meets with all flesh on the earth in judgment of them and many are destroyed, JUST LIKE 2 Thess 1 describes, when HE comes on the DAY of the Lord.

2 Thess 1

God’s Final Judgment and Glory​

3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is fitting, because your faith grows exceedingly, and the love of every one of you all abounds toward each other, 4 so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and [a]tribulations that you endure, 5 which is manifest[b] evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer; 6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with [c]tribulation those who trouble you,

7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who [d]believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

That "fire" is holy fire (spirit), not a "physical" return.

 

[The Light]

Considering Jesus return in the clouds the way He left...and people saw Jesus leave per Acts 1...It sounds like people will see Jesus when He returns.

When Jesus returns the way He left, it is not referring to the rapture.

When Jesus comes for His bride He will not touch the earth.

When Jesus comes for the 2nd harvest at the 6th seal, He will remain in the clouds and send His angels to gather the elect from the earth.

When it is talking about Jesus returning like He left, the Word is talking about when He sets His feet on the Mount of Olives.

How long will it take for the pre-trib rapture to complete? Who knows as that depends upon the rate of ascension.

 

[WPM]

When Jesus returns the way He left, it is not referring to the rapture.

When Jesus comes for His bride He will not touch the earth.

When Jesus comes for the 2nd harvest at the 6th seal, He will remain in the clouds and send His angels to gather the elect from the earth.

When it is talking about Jesus returning like He left, the Word is talking about when He sets His feet on the Mount of Olives.

• Where is your Pretrib rapture in Revelation?
• Is Revelation 19 your 3rd rapture?
• Where is your tribulation period following Matthew 24:44 (or any other rapture passage)?
• Show us one Scripture that teaches that "the feasts of God are a picture of the end times"?
• Show me New Testament Scripture that teaches that “there are two harvests? The grain harvest and the fruit harvest”?
• Where is "the grain harvest" mentioned in the New Testament?
• Where is "the fruit harvest " mentioned in the New Testament?
• Where is "the barley harvest" that you have previously invented and foisted on Scripture mentioned in the New Testament?
• Where is "the wheat harvest" that you have previously invented and foisted on Scripture mentioned in the New Testament?
• Where is all this jargon about "on the Feast of Trumpets, the fall harvest feast" in the New Testament text or in any rapture passage?
• Where in the New Testament does it say “there are two raptures – grain and fruit”?
• Show us any Scripture that teaches there are "two" future "raptures"?
• Where in the Bible does it teach that "the fig tree having two harvests are referring to two raptures”?
• Where in the Scriptures does it teach that “the two folds of sheep are referring to two raptures”?
• Where does it say anywhere in Scripture that “Noah is a picture of the Pretrib rapture” and “Lot is a picture of the Jewish harvest”?
• Show us any Scripture that teaches "the Church is removed before the great tribulation, which is the time of testing"?
• Show us any Scripture that teaches there is a "one-year wrath of God"?

 

[Truth7t7]

Christ shall physically come again for His people. But the Kingdom of God has already come for His people (whosoever have been born again).

I never mentioned God's kingdom on this earth, an out of left field response