Opinion / Judgments

[aspen]

I just had a discussion with someone at a Bible Study about opinions and judgments. It is my theory that we set forth our opinions in order to provide ourselves with the illusion of controlling our environment. The person that I was talking with challenged me on several different points - he asserted that

1) truth, opinions and judgments are all different - truth or instruction is good, opinions are useless, and judgments are bad.
2) God calls us to instruct others without judgment.
3) If we are unwilling to instruct others we are either ignorant or ashamed of the gospel.
4) Christians are judged more than most groups because of the media.

Now, I was really intrigued because I think that God calls us to love, without judgment - before we ever consider instructing people how to live. Also, I think all terms mean opinion - the truth maybe absolute, but we can only share our opinion on it. I also believe the media tries to exploit all minority groups with strong opinions - instead of the media, I think Christians are often singled out because we are so uncomfortable talking about such an intimate relationship with God that we end up sounding defensive and judgmental, when in fact, we are simply passionate.

When I mentioned that I gave up sharing my opinion for Lent last year because I thought it was unnecessary and I was sick of hearing myself asserting control over people and situations, I think I lost him, completely

 

[Miss Hepburn]

I just had a discussion with someone at a Bible Study about opinions and judgments. It is my theory that we set forth our opinions in order to provide ourselves with the illusion of controlling our environment. The person that I was talking with challenged me on several different points - he asserted that

1) truth, opinions and judgments are all different - truth or instruction is good, opinions are useless, and judgments are bad.
2) God calls us to instruct others without judgment. 3). If we are unwilling to instruct others we are either ignorant or ashamed of the gospel.
3) Christians are judged more than most groups because of the media.

Now, I was really intrigued because I think that God calls us to love, without judgment - before we ever consider instructing people how to live. Also, I think all terms mean opinion - the truth maybe absolute, but we can only share our opinion on it. I also believe the media tries to exploit all minority groups with strong opinions - instead of the media, I think Christians are often singled out because we are so uncomfortable talking about such an intimate relationship with God that we end up sounding defensive and judgmental, when in fact, we are simply passionate.

When I mentioned that I gave up sharing my opinion for Lent last year because I thought it was unnecessary and I was sick of hearing myself asserting control over people and situations, I think I lost him, completely

Maybe I shouldn't say anything...but,
I don't believe the media has anything to do with why Christians are judged more.
I believe it is bec it is typical for Christians to be pushy, judgmental, socially immature people imposing their beliefs
on others while not practicing what they preach...love.

If we are not willing to instruct others it could be bec we believe that walking the walk is better than talking the talk.

Passion with no social skills repels more people from Jesus than most realize.

 

[veteran]

Hepburn, so you are not a Christian, it would appear.

True Christians are some of the most forgiving and peace-loving peoples on the earth. Problem is, how many true Christians are there? And how often are they unmercily attacked by non-Christians? Am I now being "pushy" because I say these things? Do I impose my Christian belief on others by wanting to preach The Gospel to those who have not heard? Is that being "pushy" too? Oh, I guess it is, since the only ones supposed to be able to preach their beliefs are Leftist socialists, gay-lesbian movements, Muslims, communists, etc.

Aspen,
the media outlets are businesses, and they have their own agendas, depending who their owners put in position as editors (which quite a few of them are orthodox Jews). So why would anyone with common sense pay much attention to their opinions about Christianity anyway?

 

[Miss Hepburn]

Hepburn, so you are not a Christian, it would appear. That does not deserve a response. And indicates you misunderstood my post.

True Christians are some of the most forgiving and peace-loving peoples on the earth. Of course, they are..
Problem is, how many true Christians are there? Not my problem or issue.
And how often are they unmercily attacked by non-Christians? Alot
Am I now being "pushy" because I say these things? No. Do I impose my Christian belief on
others by wanting to preach The Gospel to those who have not heard? "wanting to preach The Gospel" or Good News to those that don't know? Of course not, that is a question that has no relevance to the post I made. And you know that.
Is that being "pushy" too? Oh, I guess it is, since the only ones supposed to be able to preach their beliefs are Leftist socialists, gay-lesbian movements, Muslims, communists, etc. Was there really a need for this sarcasm? Why? Why did you have a trigger to what I said.
It is clear you identified with something I said and took offense.
I see it more as you misunderstood my point and jumped to react to something that wasn't there.

And that would be Miss Hepburn to you.
We're on the same side here, veteran, I'm not the enemy.

In-your-face Christians that turn people off to Jesus - was my point.
Having social skills presenting our love for Jesus is very important.
Sometimes there is a little dance that must be done to win people to Christ.

I hope that helps express my point better.

Kneejerk reactions don't help in productive communications.
I hope you don't take offense to that, but I am not in control of your reaction.
You are. Sarcasm only serves the one being sarcastic to let off steam to deliberately (try to) hurt another.
Shame on you to not ask me to explain better what I may have meant... explaining what you read from it to guide my answer.

I hope we can come to an understanding, cause if we can't - wow, there's not much hope for the world at large!

Miss Hepburn

 

[Foreigner]

Maybe I shouldn't say anything...but,
I don't believe the media has anything to do with why Christians are judged more.
I believe it is bec it is typical for Christians to be pushy, judgmental, socially immature people imposing their beliefs
on others while not practicing what they preach...love.

If we are not willing to instruct others it could be bec we believe that walking the walk is better than talking the talk.

Passion with no social skills repels more people from Jesus than most realize. - Miss Hepburn



-- Miss Hepburn, your statement is a generalization at best. I must say I have encountered just the opposite.

I have seen people verbally attack Christians just for being Christian and having a specific stance on gay marraige or abortion.

Usually it is because they are recognized as being a Christian and since the position they hold is different from the non-Christian, the non-Christian verbally assaults/insults them.

They are accused of being homophobic, anti-woman, misogynistic, elitist, narrow-minded, etc. etc. Ad infinitum, Ad nauseum.

The Christian offers to explain why they hold their beliefs but are told their positions are indefensible.

They are then yelled at, ridiculed, and ostracized.

Overall my experience with Christians has been the polar opposite of you.

Are there some obnoxious Christians out there giving the rest of Christendom a bad name? Absolutely. It is simply been my experience that they are the exception, not the rule.

 

[bud02]

Im glad to see that Im not the only one to question Miss Hepburns faith.
I replied to post she made nearly two moths ago, and asked for a reply I never received.

http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/12312-who-rules-the-world/page__view__findpost__p__88235

I liken such things to new age teachings such as my opening sentence says to her.
Miss Hepburn, I would like to know more about your foundational faith? You remind me very much of a friend of mine who is a ACIM, " A Course in Miracles " follower.

A few quotes from Miss Hepburn, reply's to questions

Whoa, speak for yourself - that is not my experience at ALL!
I mean that.

If you believe that, then you will get more of what you believe.
Simply put.

"Do you preach because you like to preach? Yes.

do you stop sinning because you don't like to sin? Yes.

would you do all these if there was no hell or heaven? Yes. (I don't believe in hell, btw. And my life is pretty darned close to a heaven :) )

Are we humans free? Yes.

I will say we are free if after following our heart desires nothing happens to us. My heart's desire is pretty pure - thanks to a renewed mind and the Grace of God.

I mean disobedience with no consequences. Who said there are no consequences - the Law of Cause and Effect was brilliiantly set up in the creation by the Genius of Geniuses - I don't go to work for a week I get fired - that's a cause and effect consequence."

Life is pretty simple.

Thank you, Judd.

Original question: who rules the world...
I think the Law of Cause and Effect, now.

Secondary ques from op - why does it seem to have so much bad stuff? (evil happens faster than good.)
Again Law of Cause and Effect.

Different day, different response.

 

[Miss Hepburn]

Miss Hepburn, your statement is a generalization at best. Naturally, it's a generalization. I live in a Bible Belt - it's regretful I run into what I spoke of too often; not always.
I must say I have encountered just the opposite. And that's wonderful I have no reason to doubt it.
I have seen people verbally attack Christians just for being Christian and having a specific stance on gay marraige or abortion.
OMG - I have been attacked simply when asked how I am doing and I say, "Great! I'm so into God everything is always great now!" and then Wham! ---Attacked mercilessly.
When I responded to the same question at a wedding, again Wham! When I beamed that I had just gotten healed from a serious medical problem, I became the target of all this person's anger and confusion as to why was I healed but not a cancer patient somewhere! Both times, I was uneffected - only felt the peace and happiness within me.
She was soon pulled away.
Usually it is because they are recognized as being a Christian and since the position they hold is different from the non-Christian, the non-Christian verbally assaults/insults them. You'll get no arguement from me there.

Overall my experience with Christians has been the polar opposite of you.
Are there some obnoxious Christians out there giving the rest of Christendom a bad name? Absolutely. It is simply been my experience that they are the exception, not the rule.

Well, great, that has not been mine. It can dishearten me for a minute to hear time and again how people are turned away from the Bible or Jesus because they can't stand Christians. That alone is silly - it's not Jesus' followers that anyone is devoting themselves to - it's Jesus. But, His followers are their first introduction often.

Hope that might clarify some things - the written format with no tone is a hard one and fosters misunderstandings that can be easily explained.
Sorry about answering within the box I tried to make it easy to read - but I wasn't allowed to change the color after awhile.

I see below ( above) there is a witch's hunt going on. It takes so much time to explain where I'm coming from.
I didn't come around here much and also was away.
It does get tiring to keep explaining in writing so others understand my thinking, especially when asked in the "attack /accusatory mode".

Maybe tomorrow I can make time.
Thanks,
Miss Hepburn

 

[bud02]

Hope that might clarify some things - the written format with no tone is a hard one and fosters misunderstandings that can be easily explained.
Sorry about answering within the box I tried to make it easy to read - but I wasn't allowed to change the color after awhile.

I see below ( above) there is a witch's hunt going on. It takes so much time to explain where I'm coming from.
I didn't come around here much and also was away.
It does get tiring to keep explaining in writing so others understand my thinking, especially when asked in the "attack /accusatory mode".

Maybe tomorrow I can make time.
Thanks,
Miss Hepburn

No Attack mode here, or witch hunt just a simple observation that you don't believe in hell in the sense of eternal torment or eternal inhalation.
Jesus spoke more of hell than any other biblical figure, so you tell us your reason for believing some verses and not others, perhaps it your interpretation?
Cause and effect then to also fly in the face of some scriptures. Unless of course you measure your blessings and curses by the standards of the world, but did He not say I bring my reword with me?

[sup]14[/sup] What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! [sup]15[/sup] For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.”[sup][f][/sup] [sup]16[/sup] So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. [sup]17[/sup] For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.”[sup][g][/sup] [sup]18[/sup] Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.
[sup]19[/sup] You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” [sup]20[/sup] But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” [sup]21[/sup] Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
[sup]22[/sup] What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, [sup]23[/sup] and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, [sup]24[/sup] even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

 

[veteran]

And that would be Miss Hepburn to you.
We're on the same side here, veteran, I'm not the enemy.

In-your-face Christians that turn people off to Jesus - was my point.
Having social skills presenting our love for Jesus is very important.
Sometimes there is a little dance that must be done to win people to Christ.

I hope that helps express my point better.

Kneejerk reactions don't help in productive communications.
I hope you don't take offense to that, but I am not in control of your reaction.
You are. Sarcasm only serves the one being sarcastic to let off steam to deliberately (try to) hurt another.
Shame on you to not ask me to explain better what I may have meant... explaining what you read from it to guide my answer.

I hope we can come to an understanding, cause if we can't - wow, there's not much hope for the world at large!

Miss Hepburn

I apologize then. Thanks for clarifying.

I agree, our Lord did show us 'how' to plough the soil in prep for the seed (see end of Isaiah 28).

Isa 28:23-29
23 Give ye ear, and hear My voice; hearken, and hear My speech.
24 Doth the plowman plow all day to sow? doth he open and break the clods of his ground?
25 When he hath made plain the face thereof, doth he not cast abroad the fitches, and scatter the cummin, and cast in the principal wheat and the appointed barley and the rie in their place?
26 For his God doth instruct him to discretion, and doth teach him.
27 For the fitches are not threshed with a threshing instrument, neither is a cart wheel turned about upon the cummin; but the fitches are beaten out with a staff, and the cummin with a rod.
28 Bread corn is bruised; because he will not ever be threshing it, nor break it with the wheel of his cart, nor bruise it with his horsemen.
29 This also cometh forth from the LORD of hosts, which is wonderful in counsel, and excellent in working.
(KJV)


Fact is, with some, a softening up is required, but with others a simple rebuke. Christians are not to be like reeds shaking in the wind. Sometimes truth hurts, and that can be a good thing if it helps to turn a person away from darkness.

I too wonder what ideas have caused you to not believe in the existence of a Biblical hell. I know atheists don't believe it (not calling you an atheist). And I know students in initiatic fraternities are taught there is no Biblical concept of hell, but that this world is the real hell. Yet, this world is not the abode called 'hell' in The Bible, regardless of how evil this world may seem at times.

 

[aspen]

Wow.......I am stunned! I really am.....

Do you guys realize that you are questioning a Christian's faith because she has noticed other Christian's obnoxious behavior, which has been exploited by the media?

Does this mean we are all supposed to pretend that Christians are only attacked because of their faith, even when they are acting crazy?

Does it mean that Christians are immune from displaying socially bizarre behavior?

Seems to me that holding this belief gives the green light for all kinds of weirdness and poor behavior, as long as a proper confession of faith is evident....

BTW, when was the last time an atheist or the secular media attacked a Quaker or Amish person for their beliefs about abortion or homosexuality? Both groups reject the practices.

Peace

 

[Miss Hepburn]

[sup]14[/sup] What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! [sup]15[/sup] For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.”[sup][f][/sup] [sup]16[/sup] So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. [sup]17[/sup] For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.”[sup][g][/sup] [sup]18[/sup] Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.
[sup]19[/sup] You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” [sup]20[/sup] But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” [sup]21[/sup] Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
[sup]22[/sup] What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, [sup]23[/sup] and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, [sup]24[/sup] even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Got home late (11 now) - could you tell me where this is from so I can look it up in the morning?
I'll get back to you. I promise. I just don't recognize it.
Thank you,
Miss Hepburn

 

[bud02]

Got home late (11 now) - could you tell me where this is from so I can look it up in the morning?
I'll get back to you. I promise. I just don't recognize it.
Thank you,
Miss Hepburn

Its from Romans 9-14
Im not questioning the motive of your heart, it would seem you are genuine in compassion to your neighbor.
In the same manner I am genuinely concerned for you. I have watched your post since the first time I confronted you about some of your answers to questions, as I explained in the first post back in Sept.

To address the topic I could care less what non believers pitch my way, I consider myself very capable of defending the faith found within me from any number of social or scientific or humanistic perspectives. I've left many confrontational atheist and new agers red faced, by simply defending my faith with the knowledge of God.

What really interest me in this thread is professed Christians reaction to the word of God. Now consider Christians that feel threatened by anything that questions there belief or their salvation, perhaps upon close examination you will discover that their not the same Christians as you or myself. The word is powerful and those that are born of Spirit know you have nothing to fear. I've been in the observation position to many times in my life when the Spirit takes what I have been given and know then over flows within me, the words I speak have authority and power, tho they are not my words they are the words of God. I am nothing but a tool box at the Lords disposal. He has spent many years carefully placing the tools within me. I'm sure some of you understand what I am trying to say. There is nothing more powerful that the word spoken from a vessel prepared by God, less it be God Himself. So it is written, the sheep know the shepherds voice.
His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”

So no Miss Hepburn I am not attacking you, If I were you would certainly know it, I am concerned just as you express concern for those you speak to.

 

[Foreigner]

Bud is correct. Jesus spoke more about the dangers of Hell than the wonders of Heaven while He walked the earth.

The reason ties in with why He became flesh in the first place...to die to pay the price for our sins so that if we accept Him we can avoid hell.

To say that hell doesn't exist or is somehow just a temporary event is to go against scripture.

 

[aspen]

First of all, I have no idea if I am being addressed in this statement, but thought I would throw in my 2 cents anyway.

What really interest me in this thread is professed Christians reaction to the word of God.

In my case, the thread has nothing to do with my feelings about the word of God. It does have to do with how the word of God is presented. In my experience, many Christians seem to have the attitude that as long as they are saying the right combination of words and they are all orthodox; they can say them in any manner they feel like. As if the words are magic and the good people will accept them and the bad people will pour on some righteous persecution! See, it doesn't work that way. It matters how you present the gospel - if you are acting like the type of animal that the Lord rode into Jerusalem on, your message is not going to be an effective message; although, possibly a funny video on youtube - ever checked out 'Crazy Christians'? Do not get me wrong, I am not ashamed of the gospel and I could careless about what people think about me personally, for being a Christian; however, I am deeply concerned about presenting the truth of the gospel in a manner that can be considered by nonbelievers. This does not mean that the message changes - it means the presentation must be delivered in love. For the record, love is NOT winning the argument, saying the right words, or shoving a pamphlet in a person's face; love is laying a positive groundwork for the next Christian the person is going to meet.

Now consider Christians that feel threatened by anything that questions there belief or their salvation, perhaps upon close examination you will discover that their not the same Christians as you or myself.

I enjoy discussing doctrine! My faith is personal and I will choose whom I share it with. As far as feeling threatened - no, it is simply private and I will share it as I please. What I find most interesting is when I interact with people who are threatened by differences in doctrine.

The word is powerful and those that are born of Spirit know you have nothing to fear.


True. But how many times is a nonbeliever going to tolerant the gospel shoved down their throat and clanging in their ears like a cymbal by Christians that are refusing to present the gospel in love?

I've been in the observation position to many times in my life when the Spirit takes what I have been given and know then over flows within me, the words I speak have authority and power, tho they are not my words they are the words of God.

I think making a real connection with a person - on a human level is so much more 'powerful' than presenting knowledge. The gospel needs to be presented in the context of your relationships.

I am nothing but a tool box at the Lords disposal. He has spent many years carefully placing the tools within me. I'm sure some of you understand what I am trying to say. There is nothing more powerful that the word spoken from a vessel prepared by God, less it be God Himself. So it is written, the sheep know the shepherds voice. His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”

This reminds me, it is also really important to stay away from Christian jargon when you are witnessing - man, I came to Christ at the age of 15 - a long time ago, now - but back then, if anyone had come up to me on the street and made the above statement - I would not have a clue about what they were talking about and I think I would have run away, no matter how powerfully the message was presented.

Peace

 

[Miss Hepburn]

Back again.
It took me awhile to consider how I wanted to explain better or not
explain what I believe - that is often slightly off center from my other Christian
brothers and sisters.
I think because of the time spent in my own mind - which I am greatly aware took me away from
practicing the Presence of God and my prayer time with Him...I want to just end any
controversy here. Want, may not happen, I know.

I never speak of hell, for one thing - so no need to be concerned how I present it to others.
I am only concerned with the love.

It was not until maybe 2 years ago on a Christian Bible based Forum that I even knew that hell was controversial.
I believed what everyone believed about it. Only to find out there is a faction of very scholarly Christians that questioned
the translations of words, and what was "really " meant - Many words were brought up, Gehenna (?) was one - the
smoldering junkyards outside Jerusalem another.
On and on I read - retaining little of the actual details. So I can never carry on any debate about this...and I don't debate anyway.
I'm a lover, not a fighter.

I think that whether a Christian believes whether Jesus had a beard or didn't, is as important as whether there is an
eternal Lake of Fire - or "just" a purifying Lake of Fire.
Gasp, did she say that????
Yes, beard, no beard, eternal or temporary - is not my concern.

I only really care about the love and Jesus' saving message. Not the "scary" stuff.
The "scary" stuff doesn't concern me in the least.
I have absolutely not one fearful position regarding my Holy Father.

This position on hell is a monumental issue for some.
It isn't mine.

Mother Therese supposedly said, You don't end war by talking about war - you end war by being peaceful.

I don't talk about hell and these last 2 days - it has actually been in my mind -rather than praying and communing and delighting in my Lord.
So I'm going to have to be done.
You don't have to like me and we can disagree on the importance of the "hell messages" in the Bible.
(Btw, I believe in terribly hellish places that souls can experience after this life, if that eases any minds here.)

Obviously those 1st c people needed a prodding towards the 'right way' using a bit of fear. Ok, I'm past that now, Jesus has resurrected,
He's at God's Right Hand now, and I'm into the love and hope, promises and power, wisdom and joy, abundance and inheritance.

Thanks for making this a place I could speak without feeling so attacked.
Mature differences of opinion are to be expected.

It's all about the love - not particular beliefs or interpretations of which is the Sabbath day or should we eat shellfish or not -in my opinion.
For all I know Jesus was taking about stage right and is really at God's left side ---does it really need to take up valuable time in our minds...I say, no.

Thank you again,
:) Miss Hepburn

 

[bud02]

First of all, I have no idea if I am being addressed in this statement, but thought I would throw in my 2 cents anyway.

Your right it wasn't addressed to you or anyone in particular.

What really interest me in this thread is professed Christians reaction to the word of God.

In my case, the thread has nothing to do with my feelings about the word of God. It does have to do with how the word of God is presented. In my experience, many Christians seem to have the attitude that as long as they are saying the right combination of words and they are all orthodox; they can say them in any manner they feel like. As if the words are magic and the good people will accept them and the bad people will pour on some righteous persecution! See, it doesn't work that way. It matters how you present the gospel - if you are acting like the type of animal that the Lord rode into Jerusalem on, your message is not going to be an effective message; although, possibly a funny video on youtube - ever checked out 'Crazy Christians'? Do not get me wrong, I am not ashamed of the gospel and I could careless about what people think about me personally, for being a Christian; however, I am deeply concerned about presenting the truth of the gospel in a manner that can be considered by nonbelievers. This does not mean that the message changes - it means the presentation must be delivered in love. For the record, love is NOT winning the argument, saying the right words, or shoving a pamphlet in a person's face; love is laying a positive groundwork for the next Christian the person is going to meet.

Sounds to me like you depend alot on your own understanding of what to say and how, I don't see one reference to scripture or the leading of the Holy Spirit in your comment.
Do you believe there is a generic presentation that magically works in all cases, or do you think the leading of the Spirit is a better choice?
And for the record your right there are a lot of kooks so what are we to do about them? They don't bother me do they you? You seem to be all worked up with what 99% of people would consider mentally challenged nuts in the first place.

[sup]15[/sup] Some indeed preach Christ even from envy and strife, and some also from goodwill: [sup]16[/sup] The former[sup][b][/sup] preach Christ from selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my chains; [sup]17[/sup] but the latter out of love, knowing that I am appointed for the defense of the gospel. [sup]18[/sup] What then? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is preached; and in this I rejoice, yes, and will rejoice.

Now consider Christians that feel threatened by anything that questions there belief or their salvation, perhaps upon close examination you will discover that their not the same Christians as you or myself.

I enjoy discussing doctrine! My faith is personal and I will choose whom I share it with. As far as feeling threatened - no, it is simply private and I will share it as I please. What I find most interesting is when I interact with people who are threatened by differences in doctrine.

Picking and choosing with whom you make a testimony for? If you confess me before men I will also confess you before the Father in heaven, but if you deny me I will also deny you before the Father.
[sup]
14[/sup] “You are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hidden. [sup]15[/sup] Nor do they light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house. [sup]16[/sup] Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven.

The word is powerful and those that are born of Spirit know you have nothing to fear.

True. But how many times is a nonbeliever going to tolerant the gospel shoved down their throat and clanging in their ears like a cymbal by Christians that are refusing to present the gospel in love?

Haven't you ever heard, the sheep know the shepherds voice? Those that do know the difference and those that teach as you describe are not the same voice, the sheep know this. He who has an ear let him hear.
Those that are born of Spirit simply don't sound or teach the same as those that are not, its a basic teaching in the NT. And in some cases or most, some people will never tolerate the spoken word. I say most because Jesus said, many seek but few find.

I've been in the observation position to many times in my life when the Spirit takes what I have been given and know then over flows within me, the words I speak have authority and power, tho they are not my words they are the words of God.

I think making a real connection with a person - on a human level is so much more 'powerful' than presenting knowledge. The gospel needs to be presented in the context of your relationships.

This is where I play my personal card.

I am nothing but a tool box at the Lords disposal. He has spent many years carefully placing the tools within me. I'm sure some of you understand what I am trying to say. There is nothing more powerful that the word spoken from a vessel prepared by God, less it be God Himself. So it is written, the sheep know the shepherds voice. His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”

This reminds me, it is also really important to stay away from Christian jargon when you are witnessing - man, I came to Christ at the age of 15 - a long time ago, now - but back then, if anyone had come up to me on the street and made the above statement - I would not have a clue about what they were talking about and I think I would have run away, no matter how powerfully the message was presented.

Statements like the one above don't come in the introduction of a conversation but come with the depth and context of sharing with others.
Paul is a good example beginning with a basic outline and leading ever deeper into the topic as he is lead, or carried along in the Spirit.
When speaking personally or directly to people their receptiveness of the message is evident. They can draw the water out or go away thirsty its never my decision.
[sup]
10[/sup] Jesus answered and said to her, “If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, ‘Give Me a drink,’ you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water.”

My point is every situation is different, it also dependent on the receptive or objective persona of those present.

[sup]13[/sup] Jesus answered and said to her, “Whoever drinks of this water will thirst again, [sup]14[/sup] but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.”

Don't forget to a be a fountain to those that thirst aspen. Its not your call if you know what I mean. God Bless.

 

[bud02]

Back again.
It took me awhile to consider how I wanted to explain better or not
explain what I believe - that is often slightly off center from my other Christian
brothers and sisters.
I think because of the time spent in my own mind - which I am greatly aware took me away from
practicing the Presence of God and my prayer time with Him...I want to just end any
controversy here. Want, may not happen, I know.

I never speak of hell, for one thing - so no need to be concerned how I present it to others.
I am only concerned with the love.

It was not until maybe 2 years ago on a Christian Bible based Forum that I even knew that hell was controversial.
I believed what everyone believed about it. Only to find out there is a faction of very scholarly Christians that questioned
the translations of words, and what was "really " meant - Many words were brought up, Gehenna (?) was one - the
smoldering junkyards outside Jerusalem another.
On and on I read - retaining little of the actual details. So I can never carry on any debate about this...and I don't debate anyway.
I'm a lover, not a fighter.

I think that whether a Christian believes whether Jesus had a beard or didn't, is as important as whether there is an
eternal Lake of Fire - or "just" a purifying Lake of Fire.
Gasp, did she say that????
Yes, beard, no beard, eternal or temporary - is not my concern.

I only really care about the love and Jesus' saving message. Not the "scary" stuff.
The "scary" stuff doesn't concern me in the least.
I have absolutely not one fearful position regarding my Holy Father.

This position on hell is a monumental issue for some.
It isn't mine.

Mother Therese supposedly said, You don't end war by talking about war - you end war by being peaceful.

I don't talk about hell and these last 2 days - it has actually been in my mind -rather than praying and communing and delighting in my Lord.
So I'm going to have to be done.
You don't have to like me and we can disagree on the importance of the "hell messages" in the Bible.
(Btw, I believe in terribly hellish places that souls can experience after this life, if that eases any minds here.)

Obviously those 1st c people needed a prodding towards the 'right way' using a bit of fear. Ok, I'm past that now, Jesus has resurrected,
He's at God's Right Hand now, and I'm into the love and hope, promises and power, wisdom and joy, abundance and inheritance.

Thanks for making this a place I could speak without feeling so attacked.
Mature differences of opinion are to be expected.

It's all about the love - not particular beliefs or interpretations of which is the Sabbath day or should we eat shellfish or not -in my opinion.
For all I know Jesus was taking about stage right and is really at God's left side ---does it really need to take up valuable time in our minds...I say, no.

Thank you again,
:) Miss Hepburn

Thank You Miss Hepburn.
I don't want to open a discussion on the topic of hell myself. But I do want to comment on death, and perhaps you can gain a personal understanding of what I say to you.
Some teach that mankind inherited a sin or fallen condition from Adam and Eve, I believe this is in error. The command was in Genesis,
the LORD God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; [sup]17[/sup] but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”

What mankind inherited was the result of the sin. Adam and Eve sinned when they ate, the result was death. Now my opinion is when God says you will die, you will die, nothing here about tormenting for ever. But to my point what we inherited was the result of the sin not sin itself. We all inherited death. Jesus came that we could have life and life more abundantly.


Romans 5
[sup]12[/sup] Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— [sup]13[/sup] For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. [sup]14[/sup] Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

Just keep it simple Miss Hepburn and in time the Lord will lead you forward. We "all men" are destine to die with out Jesus, its just that simple. God Bless.

 

[aspen]

Sounds to me like you depend alot on your own understanding of what to say and how, I don't see one reference to scripture or the leading of the Holy Spirit in your comment.

I do not always use scripture in my posts. Also, since I am a Christian with a rich prayer life, I assumed that constant reference to the Holy Spirit leading me to be redundant.

Do you believe there is a generic presentation that magically works in all cases, or do you think the leading of the Spirit is a better choice?

Well, based on your leading question, the Spirit is the obvious choice - picking the other would just be silly.

And for the record your right there are a lot of kooks so what are we to do about them? They don't bother me do they you? You seem to be all worked up with what 99% of people would consider mentally challenged nuts in the first place.

Actually, I do find them annoying because I often see them misrepresenting Christ and giving nonbelievers reason to not consider Christianity. I have no illusion that I can do anything about them, but I do find them annoying and a negative witness to Christ.

[sup]15[/sup] Some indeed preach Christ even from envy and strife, and some also from goodwill: [sup]16[/sup] The former[sup][b][/sup] preach Christ from selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my chains; [sup]17[/sup] but the latter out of love, knowing that I am appointed for the defense of the gospel. [sup]18[/sup] What then? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is preached; and in this I rejoice, yes, and will rejoice.

Indeed! I love Philippians! Would have be nice if you included the book (ref) - I just happened to be returning from a Bible Study on these very verses. It sure sounds like Paul is justifying people who witness in obnoxious ways, does it?

However if you look at the progression of the text - it is much more likely that Paul is actually 1) Pointing out an issue that bothers him 2) Recognizing that there are many other people who are also preaching in love 3) Realizing that he cannot do anything about people's intentions anyway - it is not like that are preaching heresy and besides he is in prison at that moment 4) And finally, rejoicing in the sovereignty of God to bring together His plan, despite his concerns

This is not an endorsement from Paul for kooks and people with selfish ambitions - it is an example of surrendering to Christ - despite his understandable concern.

The fact is, witnessing is an act of love - Paul ever says in 1 Corinthians 13:1 [sup]1[/sup]If I speak in the tongues[sup][a][/sup] of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal, which suggests that the kooks and those preaching Christ without love may be eloquent in speak and sound in doctrine, but they are just making noise.

I think many Christians have misused this verse to justify shoving doctrine down people's throats and calling it an act of love - they are mistaken.

Picking and choosing with whom you make a testimony for?

I share my faith experience with people I have built a relationship with - it takes a loving relationship to promote a loving relationship with Christ - that is where the love comes in. I trust God to lead me to and help me build the relationships He wants me to be in. Sharing my personal, sacred, private faith experience with a stranger is throwing pearls before swine (Matt 7:6)

If you confess me before men I will also confess you before the Father in heaven, but if you deny me I will also deny you before the Father.

Choosing to not share my deepest relationship with strangers hardly qualifies as denying Christ. I choose not to share the details of my relationship with my wife with strangers either, but it is not because I am ashamed of it.
[sup]
14[/sup] “You are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hidden. [sup]15[/sup] Nor do they light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house. [sup]16[/sup] Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven.

Another great verse that doesn't apply. Again, it takes a relationship with another person to promote a relationship with Christ. Without a witnessing relationship that includes a degree of love, how is the person you are witnessing to going to recognize a saving relationship with Christ, with all the clanging and gonging?

Haven't you ever heard, the sheep know the shepherds voice? Those that do know the difference and those that teach as you describe are not the same voice, the sheep know this. He who has an ear let him hear.

Indeed. The sheep know the shepherd's voice because the shepherd cares and loves the sheep - he has a relationship with them. So as Paul advocates - witness in love so that you can share your faith and relationship with Jesus (the Good Shepherd) within the context of a meaningful relationship.

Those that are born of Spirit simply don't sound or teach the same as those that are not, its a basic teaching in the NT. And in some cases or most, some people will never tolerate the spoken word. I say most because Jesus said, many seek but few find.

Love is the key and building relationships with people here on Earth is storing up treasure in Heaven - especially if your relationships with others witness the love of Christ through service and let the person you are witnessing know that they can have the same relationship you have with Christ. It sure makes is easier to show them Christ's love for you, if it is overflowing in the relationship you have with the person you are witnessing to. It beats the heck out of passing out 4 spiritual law tracts.

This is where I play my personal card.

It sounds like we agree. I think I am calling your 'personal card' developing a relationship with the person I am witnessing to.

Statements like the one above don't come in the introduction of a conversation but come with the depth and context of sharing with others.

Ok - so now I am not sure if we are disagreeing at all anymore........

Paul is a good example beginning with a basic outline and leading ever deeper into the topic as he is lead, or carried along in the Spirit.

Paul is also a good example of a person who developed deep, rich relationships with the people who he shared the love of Christ with and eventually started churches with.

When speaking personally or directly to people their receptiveness of the message is evident. They can draw the water out or go away thirsty its never my decision.

No, but it is your responsibility to love them and it is much easier for you to manage a possible rejection of the gospel message if you are in a loving relationship with the person. I also believe it is our responsibility to act in a manner that helps the person we are witnessing to be receptive to the next Christian they meet, rather than jade them to the message and set them up to be hostile towards the next Christian. Witnessing does not require us to 'close the deal' - we are just planting seeds and trusting God that He will bring them to fruition, possibly through the next Christian they meet.

Witnessing is also not restricted to unbelievers. We witness our sanctification to believers all the time - through the practice of perspective taking skills, empathy, love and forgiveness. This is how we work out our salvation and encourage one another in the faith.
[sup]
10[/sup] Jesus answered and said to her, “If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, ‘Give Me a drink,’ you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water.”

My point is every situation is different, it also dependent on the receptive or objective persona of those present.

Which requires you to be able to read people. Which is much easier if you know them.

[sup]13[/sup] Jesus answered and said to her, “Whoever drinks of this water will thirst again, [sup]14[/sup] but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.”

Don't forget to a be a fountain to those that thirst aspen. Its not your call if you know what I mean. God Bless.


I do understand what you are saying and I appreciate it.

Peace of Christ

 

[Miss Hepburn]

I came across this on a thread on another forum discussion - it may be of interest here.
I am not making a statement as to my belief one way or another - just as if I copied an interesting
article on UFOs - it's just "of interest" and I had never seen this.
Someone started a thread with this... So here goes:

Titus (c. 364), bishop of Bostra, wrote: "Abyss of hell is, indeed, the place of torment; but it is not eternal, nor did it exist in the original constitution of nature. It was made afterward, as a remedy for sinners, that it might cure them. And the punishments are holy, as they are remedial and salutary in their effect on transgressors; for they are inflicted not to preserve them in their wickedness but to make them cease from their wickedness. The anguish of their suffering compels them to break off their vices" (Lib. 1, ch. 32).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titus_of_Bostra

 

[bud02]

I came across this on a thread on another forum discussion - it may be of interest here.
I am not making a statement as to my belief one way or another - just as if I copied an interesting
article on UFOs - it's just "of interest" and I had never seen this.
Someone started a thread with this... So here goes:

Titus (c. 364), bishop of Bostra, wrote: "Abyss of hell is, indeed, the place of torment; but it is not eternal, nor did it exist in the original constitution of nature. It was made afterward, as a remedy for sinners, that it might cure them. And the punishments are holy, as they are remedial and salutary in their effect on transgressors; for they are inflicted not to preserve them in their wickedness but to make them cease from their wickedness. The anguish of their suffering compels them to break off their vices" (Lib. 1, ch. 32).

http://en.wikipedia....Titus_of_Bostra

It would seem that your quote is a precursor to purgatory. I know some here have ties or convictions steaming from the Catholic church, I don't mind saying I have many vises with Catholic teachings. If you can produce scriptural evidence to support the statement I would comment on it, but I know there is none.

I to follow UFO's ancient pre biblical nations and beliefs. The great pyramid "gods stone witness by E. Raymond Capt " is a good read. The gospel in the stars "the zodiac" is some of the oldest writings known. The anunnaki ancient Sumerian texts. 12 months in a year 12 signs of the zodiac 12 tribes, 12 hours in a clock face 360 degrees in a circle, the golden means ratio, the value of PI. The uncanny similarities in ancient beliefs that modern historians say that Israel plagiarized to write the old testament. Scientific knowledege of both cosmetology and physics, Genetics, DNA. There is a lot to be prepared to give an answer to today. I've been intending to start a thread about what I have I discovered about pre Moses earth and men, I don't in anyway believe that God was silent or that men were without the knowledge of God in pre Abram days. The time from Noah to Abram lets say. But as we all know its hard for many to agree on the fundamental principles let alone seeking out the full counsel of God. In the midst of looking I always keep scripture, Jesus as the center of my observation, a sure foundation that I can measure from. If you have ever surveyed you understand the importance of a single fixed "known" location, you always return to that location to determine the distance and angle, its the only way to ensure precision. If you abandon scripture your point of reference is a drift and that of course effects the truth " accuracy " of your results, you can literally end up anywhere. Take the catholic church for example, they abandoned scripture to allow for tradition this tradition causes them to drift from the original "known" start pin. IMO causing their results to be all over the board. A surveyor uses one "known" start pin location to measure everything back to, tradition allows the surveyor to place a new pin at will. The end result for a surveyor will be a law suit because he improperly defined the boundaries causing the builder to place your driveway on the neighbors property.