Original Sin

[Prayer Warrior]

Are we ever going to stop disobeying?

Yes, when the sin nature is completely done away with--in heaven! For now, we do as Paul did and reckon the sin nature as being crucified with Christ....

 

[Prayer Warrior]

These posts should get this thread onto the homepage Featured Threads. More people will see it and participate.

 

[charity]

Start with, what did Adam and Eve do that was so bad that God judged all of humanity on their error? Just two people. He could have just killed them and started over. What did they do?

Hello @Grailhunter,

They disobeyed God's known will for them, and chose to believe Satan's lie instead of remaining faithful to God Who made them. The entrance of sin brought death, and the consciousness of sin brought accountability. Innocence was gone, and judgment came in. God was now separated from His creation by sin and it's consequences. Yet He provided the means by which they could live by the shedding of blood, by which He atoned for their sin and covered their nakedness, as a foreshadowing of the coming of their Redeemer.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[marks]

Ok, knowledge of good and evil....Hmmm. Knowledge of good and evil acquired by eating the fruit of the tree. Not a normal way for humans to get an education....if so I would be the wisest man on earth lol

Not just Any tree, though!

Much love!

 

[marks]

- Does a newborn babe have culpability for a sin they never committed? (Namely Adam's sin)

This is one of the key questions, that's for sure!

This is comparing the First Man and the Last Man.

Romans 5
15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Particularly vs. 18, we are all under the judgment of condemnation by the one man's offence.

By Adam's sin, we are made sinners, we are already dead, we are under the power of death, and we are condemned. All due to Adam's sin, which was before any of us were ever born.

So we are born into a humanity that is dead in sin, condemned by God, under the reign of death. The Law of sin and death.

Does the newborn have culpability? That I can't answer. But does the newborn share in the condemnation? According to Romans 5, I'd have to answer Yes.

Not because of anything that baby did or didn't do, of course, it hasn't done anything. But by being born into a humanity that was wrecked by sin.

Much love!

 

[marks]

- Is a newborn babe whom dies sent to eternal torture?

I believe the rule set forth, also in Romans 5 . . .

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

So for those who have received no law from God, including what is in their conscience, that they are not imputed with sin, and therefore are received by God.

I think this is also what is being addressed in . . .

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

All are condemned, but God allows us 'provisional life', He overlooks the fact that we are condemned to allow us the opportunity to repent.

I'm not completely settled that this is the meaning of "justification of life", and remain interested in other ideas.

Much love!

 

[Jane_Doe22]

This is one of the key questions, that's for sure!

This is comparing the First Man and the Last Man.

Romans 5
15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Particularly vs. 18, we are all under the judgment of condemnation by the one man's offence.

By Adam's sin, we are made sinners, we are already dead, we are under the power of death, and we are condemned. All due to Adam's sin, which was before any of us were ever born.

I see this all being about consequences. Not culpability.
Children suffer consequences for their parent's actions all the time. That doesn't mean the child is responsible.

Does the newborn have culpability? That I can't answer. But does the newborn share in the condemnation? According to Romans 5, I'd have to answer Yes.

Culpability is the question though.

Not because of anything that baby did or didn't do, of course, it hasn't done anything. But by being born into a humanity that was wrecked by sin.

For me:
A sinner is a person who sins. They must commit a sin and be culpable for their actions.
A sinner is not somebody who happened to be born into a bad situation.

Therefore, a newborn babe, while certainly born into a sinful world, is not a sinner themselves until they actually sin. Which they inevitably will, but not until then. That nursing babe is not culpable for another person's actions. And if tragedy takes that baby away, they are saved under Christ's grace.

 

[Grailhunter]

Hello @Grailhunter,

They disobeyed God's known will for them, and chose to believe Satan's lie instead of remaining faithful to God Who made them. The entrance of sin brought death, and the consciousness of sin brought accountability. Innocence was gone, and judgment came in. God was now separated from His creation by sin and it's consequences. Yet He provided the means by which they could live by the shedding of blood, by which He atoned for their sin and covered their nakedness, as a foreshadowing of the coming of their Redeemer.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

All so true...
The question I asked was not so answerable... What they did...more or less happens everyday, except in their case the whole of humanity was judged. So, do we know exactly? The vague and metaphorical nature of the story does not give the details. We do know that they sinned and that whatever the "knowledge of good and evil" was, it made it so that they could not remain in paradise.

 

[bbyrd009]

Don't judge, and you won't be judged

Ok, knowledge of good and evil....Hmmm. Knowledge of good and evil acquired by eating the fruit of the tree. Not a normal way for humans to get an education....if so I would be the wisest man on earth lol

ok fwiw it prolly does not say that knowledge of good and evil was acquired, but that the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil was eaten; which might equate to "you came to think that you knew the difference in good and evil," not that (you) actually did

 

[marks]

Start with, what did Adam and Eve do that was so bad that God judged all of humanity on their error? Just two people. He could have just killed them and started over. What did they do?

They altered themselves from what God made. They took over for Him. And since they did not have life in themselves, that is, their life derived from God, when they chose to make their own decisions about what they would be (desirable to make one wise), death resulted.

God made them innocent to good and evil, and they choose knowledge of good and evil instead. Instead of following God, they changed into something that follows itself, based on it's own ideas. Sound familiar?

Why didn't God start over?

Of course, He already knew what the results would be. And He was hiding something even then, a secret plan, a counter move. Man was God's creation, and went rogue.

You could say, God DID start over. Or rather, would. Instead of creations, God would have children, and these children would replace the broken creation with partakers of God.

Much love!

 

[bbyrd009]

well imo you gotta believe that Yah, Who knows everything, knows the end from the beginning, was not a part of your scenario there, wadr; Yah was not thwarted, nor surprised that we ate the fruit, imo

All so true...

so you say, but maybe not so at all, see. Yah did not slaughter anything to give A&E coats of skins, and it is only under the law that almost every sin requires blood, right?

So see that when you say "All so true," you have eaten the fruit of the tree of knowledge, yeh? It is all actually...it is all likely crap, but you say "All so true" iow

which i dont mean as personal condemnation ok, but an image of something we all do

 

[Grailhunter]

They altered themselves from what God made. They took over for Him. And since they did not have life in themselves, that is, their life derived from God, when they chose to make their own decisions about what they would be (desirable to make one wise), death resulted.

God made them innocent to good and evil, and they choose knowledge of good and evil instead. Instead of following God, they changed into something that follows itself, based on it's own ideas. Sound familiar?

Why didn't God start over?

Of course, He already knew what the results would be. And He was hiding something even then, a secret plan, a counter move. Man was God's creation, and went rogue.

You could say, God DID start over. Or rather, would. Instead of creations, God would have children, and these children would replace the broken creation with partakers of God.

Much love!

As He said later on, He was sorry that He made man.
"Of course He already Knew" Which brings up another topic....all the way to Noah....to start over again.

 

[marks]

Two trees: each bringing forth fruit after his kind
Two men: similarly bringing forth fruit after his kind.
(the first: because of the fall, bringing forth fruit which leads unto death.)
(the second: because of His own sinlessness, bringing forth fruit unto life eternal)Two choices: Death or Life.

And you will know the tree by it's fruit!

Much love!

 

[marks]

Hello @Grailhunter,

They disobeyed God's known will for them, and chose to believe Satan's lie instead of remaining faithful to God Who made them. The entrance of sin brought death, and the consciousness of sin brought accountability. Innocence was gone, and judgment came in. God was now separated from His creation by sin and it's consequences. Yet He provided the means by which they could live by the shedding of blood, by which He atoned for their sin and covered their nakedness, as a foreshadowing of the coming of their Redeemer.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Hi Chris,

This is good . . .

The entrance of sin brought death, and the consciousness of sin brought accountability.

The newly gained knowledge, they were suddenly accountable, and suddenly wrong. Who said you were naked? No one. They now knew.

Much love!

 

[Enoch111]

I long thought it a good question, where does Scripture tell us a 3rd Day resurrection?

I thought this thread was about "original sin". The better term would be "Adam's disobedience", since it was Adam who was "in the transgression". But it all started with Eve. Yet, Adam should be held responsible even for that. Where was he when the Serpent was deceiving his wife?

 

[marks]

Don't judge, and you won't be judged

ok fwiw it prolly does not say that knowledge of good and evil was acquired, but that the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil was eaten; which might equate to "you came to think that you knew the difference in good and evil," not that (you) actually did

Genesis 3
22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
23 Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

Much love!

 

[Prayer Warrior]

But it all started with Eve.

Just like a man--blame the woman! She started it, lol! (I'm joking with you. I did read the rest of your post where you say that Adam was ultimately responsible.)

I would love to know why Adam stood there and let Eve eat the fruit. I suppose we may never know, at least on this side of heaven.

 

[marks]

I thought this thread was about "original sin". The better term would be "Adam's disobedience", since it was Adam who was "in the transgression". But it all started with Eve. Yet, Adam should be held responsible even for that. Where was he when the Serpent was deceiving his wife?

You don't seem to like many of my thread titles, but I don't mind that.

We don't know where Adam was when the serpent was deceiving Eve. How much would you like to build on that silence? Are you of the mind that Adam was supposed to protect Eve from the serpent, and that the real original sin was his failure to do that?

Genesis 3
22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

I chose the name "Original Sin" to reference that which corrupted humanity. And it's laid at Adam's feet, not Eve's.

1 Corinthians 15
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

Romans 5
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Genesis 3
9 And the Lord God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?
10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.
11 And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?
12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.
13 And the Lord God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.
14 And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

It's all about Adam and his disobedience.

God cursed the serpent for deceiving Eve into eating. God multiplied the woman's sorrow in childbearing, and put her desire to her husband, but nothing about eating.

But God held Adam accountable. Have you eaten from the tree I told you not to eat? Cursed is the ground because of you! Adam was the one make from dirt, and Adam would return to the dirt.

And we all share in that, in Adam, in the wrong tree.

Much love!

 

[bbyrd009]

Just like a man--blame the woman! She started it, lol! (I'm joking with you. I did read the rest of your post where you say that Adam was ultimately responsible.)

I would love to know why Adam stood there and let Eve eat the fruit. I suppose we may never know, at least on this side of heaven.

as long as you insist upon reading literally anyway, yeh

 

[marks]

I see this all being about consequences. Not culpability.
Children suffer consequences for their parent's actions all the time. That doesn't mean the child is responsible.

I go along with that.

I'm reminded of the blind man, the disciples ask Jesus, who sinned that this man was born blind? Neither his sin, nor his parent's sin. The man wasn't culpable, but he was still blind.

I think he was born blind because God subjected creation to futility as the beginning of the restoration of Mankind.

In the same way, we didn't cause the situation we're born into, we just happen to find ourselves here.

Much love!