Our souls apart from our bodies

[Aunty Jane]

We are spiritually alive eternally, and after death are waiting in heaven with the Lord until the Kingdom of God in heaven is complete, then the last trump will sound and our bodies too shall be resurrected immortal, and made alive again through the spirit that shall return with Christ, and the living shall once again be complete living soul with body + spirit to inhabit the new earth forever.

I cannot find anything in the Bible, that is even close to what you just suggested. Who said that we are “spiritually alive eternally”? And who is “we”? The scripture quoted above tells us that the saints 'sleep in death' until Christ’s return.....so where is the evidence for the belief that the word “eternal” applies to anyone but God alone? “Eternal” means “having no beginning or end”....every living thing had a beginning......except the Creator.

Ecclesiastes 9:5 (KJV) For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Ecclesiastes 9:6 (KJV) Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

Of course Solomon understood when the body of those who die without faith goes into the grave there is no more life for them. They are already condemned because in life they were without faith. After death their next waking moment shall be when they are resurrected to stand before God in judgement and are judged according to what is found written in the books and the book of life. Since their names were not recorded in the book of life from the foundation of the world, they will be cast into the lake of fire that is the second death.

Ecclesiastes 9:10 (KJV) Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

Who is Solomon addressing? His own people, the Israelites. He is not speaking to those without faith...he is talking to God’s people, and his words are part of the Hebrew Scriptures which Jesus and his apostles often quoted from.

In chapter 12 of Ecclesiastes Solomon tells us to remember the Creator while we can, because the time now in this world is when our eternal fate is determined. We can live our lives without remembering God and go through life in fear, knowing that death awaits us forever, or we can cling to our Creator in faith and understand that when we die our spirit (breath of life) will return to God. If we have no memory of God, then our spirit breath of life shall return to God in darkness and unbelief, knowing nothing but silence and death. But for those who remember their Creator in life, shall be rewarded with eternal, immortal life by grace through faith in the end of these days when Christ shall return.

That is a bit embellished IMO...and a far cry from immediate life after death.

Ecclesiastes 12:1-7 (KJV) Remember now thy Creator in the days of thy youth, while the evil days come not, nor the years draw nigh, when thou shalt say, I have no pleasure in them; While the sun, or the light, or the moon, or the stars, be not darkened, nor the clouds return after the rain: In the day when the keepers of the house shall tremble, and the strong men shall bow themselves, and the grinders cease because they are few, and those that look out of the windows be darkened, And the doors shall be shut in the streets, when the sound of the grinding is low, and he shall rise up at the voice of the bird, and all the daughters of musick shall be brought low; Also when they shall be afraid of that which is high, and fears shall be in the way, and the almond tree shall flourish, and the grasshopper shall be a burden, and desire shall fail: because man goeth to his long home, and the mourners go about the streets: Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern. Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Do you know what the rest of that scripture is referring to?
All of those symbolisms are about getting old and the various bodily functions failing before we eventually die. And when we take our last breath, the spirit (breath of life) returns to God in that he is the only one who can restore the life and breath of those whom he resurrects through Jesus. All the resurrections performed by Jesus and his apostles in the Bible, were back to earthly life.
All who have died have been 'acquitted' of their former sins (Romans 6:7) because the death penalty is the highest you can pay under God’s law for the worst sins.
Jesus promises to resurrect those who did good as well as those who didn’t. (John 5:28-29) The ones who died in ignorance because they lived at a time, or in a place where the true God was not known, will get their opportunity. They will be judged during the thousand year reign of Christ and his elect. The only ones judged before then are the “sheep and the goats”.....these are the ones living now in this judgment period called “the time of the end”......the time when the message of the kingdom has been preached “in all the inhabited earth as a witness”, either for people who have accepted it, or against those who rejected it. There will be no excuses when Christ comes as judge.....he will reward the sheep with everlasting life....and punish the goats with eternal death. That’s it.

 

[rwb]

There is so much to address here, so I’ll reply in increments....

Where is this quote taken from? And what does it mean in context.....you can’t pluck words out of a scripture, out of context, to support a belief that you want to hold on to. Sound Bible knowledge means that you never have to do that.

It appears that this is from John 11:21-27....Jesus’ friend Lazarus has died.....his sister Martha went out to meet him....
“21 Martha then said to Jesus: “Lord, if you had been here, my brother would not have died. 22 Yet even now I know that whatever you ask God for, God will give you.” 23 Jesus said to her: “Your brother will rise.” 24 Martha said to him: “I know he will rise in the resurrection on the last day.” 25 Jesus said to her: “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who exercises faith in me, even though he dies, will come to life; 26 and everyone who is living and exercises faith in me will never die at all. Do you believe this?” 27 She said to him: “Yes, Lord, I have believed that you are the Christ, the Son of God, the one coming into the world.”

OK, so what is Jesus actually telling Martha, and what was her belief about where her brother was?

Being followers of Jesus and close friends as well, Lazarus and his sisters held the scriptural Jewish view of death......not in the adopted belief of an immortal soul (which was borrowed from Platonic Greek ideas) and when Jesus posed the question of Lazarus’ prospects for the future, his sister readily replied concerning her belief in the resurrection....something completely different to the general belief of immediate life after death, held even by pagans. The Jewish scriptures did not support any kind of immediate life after death.....the resurrection was something yet future.....when Messiah’s kingdom would rule the earth. It was a restoration of life...not a continuation of it.

I prefer to use a translation of Holy Writ that has already withstood the test of time.

John 11:21-27 (KJV) Then said Martha unto Jesus, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died. But I know, that even now, whatsoever thou wilt ask of God, God will give it thee. Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again. Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.

Matha, apparently like you, believed that physical death meant her brother Lazarus would not have life again until the physical resurrection that shall be when the last trump sounds (1Cor 15:51-54). Martha needed to understand that death of the body is not the end of life for her brother. And to prove this Christ raised Lazarus to physical life again. But that's not the end of the words of Christ. He wanted Martha to know that believers in Him need have no fear of physical death, because even though humans have a destiny with physical death that does not mean we are without life. So He tells Martha, "whosoever lives and believes in me shall NEVER die." Clearly Christ is not speaking of physical death, because His faithful friend Lazarus had just died. Christ is referring to eternal life believers receive when we are in Him through His Spirit in us. Our bodies may die but the eternal spirit life we have through the Spirit of Christ in us will not die, because it will return to God who gave it when our bodies become a corpse. (Ecc 12:7) Yes, Martha was right to understand physical resurrection of our bodies too shall come in the resurrection at the last day, but in Christ we are promised eternal life through His Spirit that is life in the present, and life that will not end when our body breathes its last.

 

[rwb]

You can believe Christ but you first need to know what he taught, not what Christendom has adopted from the false belief that ‘heaven or hell’ are the only options for Christians....originally there was no 'heaven or hell' told to Adam and his wife....not even a mention of it. God told them that if they ate the fruit, they would “surely die”....death was a “return to the dust”, not that a separate conscious spirit would depart from the body when breathing stopped. The Jewish scriptures have no such teaching.

And I can say the same to you. You can believe Christ but first you must know what He taught, not what JW's and their NWT have falsely taught you is truth. Yes, the body returns to dust from which it was created, BUT the spirit returns to God who gave it (Ecc 12:7). The question we must each consider while alive on earth is, will our spirit (breath of life) return to God after physical death alive through His indwelling Spirit, or will our spirit return to God in darkness and unbelief and without hope?

Those in Sheol (translated “grave” in the Tanakh) are not conscious. Since there is no mention of immediate life after death in Jewish scripture, all who have died spend time in Sheol. It’s the place where we all go, according to Solomon. (Eccl 9:10) No one in sheol is alive. And no dead people are alive because the soul has died. (Ezekiel18:4) Its a mortal soul, not an immortal one. There is no mention of immortal souls in the Bible at all.

The physical body goes into the grave, and no they are not conscious. The story of Lazarus and the rich man gives us a pretty good idea about the beliefs regarding the grave for those who have done good and those who have done evil during their lives. It is written that in death the rich was physically dead and buried, but Lazarus was carried by the angels to a place the Old Testament Jews called the "bosom of Abraham". Why do you believe that considered the grave for the rich man was one of burning and suffering, but the place for Lazarus was in comfort? It seems that the one who showed himself to be self-centered and uncaring of the poor has a destiny with the second death that is the lake of fire at Judgment Day. But the one pitied by God has eternal spiritual life, and at the Judgment Day his destiny shall be immortal physical life on the new earth. As Ezekiel tells us the mortal soul (body & spirit) shall suffer the second death once their body goes into the grave in unbelief. But mortality and immortality belong to the flesh, and those in the flesh who are of faith in Christ have eternal life through the Spirit of Christ and shall never die.

Who is Solomon addressing? His own people, the Israelites. He is not speaking to those without faith...he is talking to God’s people, and his words are part of the Hebrew Scriptures which Jesus and his apostles often quoted from.

Yes, and those of his people, Israel of Old, the remnant according to election of grace, are saved, and since Christ came and defeated Satan, sin and death, they are now spiritually alive in heaven with Christ and will be there until the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven is complete and the last trump sounds for Christ to return with them (spirit) and through the spirit their mortal body will be resurrected immortal and incorruptible to live with Christ on the new earth forever.

Romans 11:1-5 (KJV) I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 (KJV) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Ephesians 4:8-10 (KJV) Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Revelation 10:5-7 (KJV) And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

1 Corinthians 15:51-54 (KJV) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

That is a bit embellished IMO...and a far cry from immediate life after death.

If it isn't truth you should be able to biblically refute it!

All who have died have been 'acquitted' of their former sins (Romans 6:7) because the death penalty is the highest you can pay under God’s law for the worst sins.

Then why does Scriptures tell us that whoever is not found written in the book of life shall be cast into the lake of fire with death and hell that is a second death? (Rev 20:14-15) How can some names not be found in the book of life if all are acquitted of their former sins?

Jesus promises to resurrect those who did good as well as those who didn’t. (John 5:28-29) The ones who died in ignorance because they lived at a time, or in a place where the true God was not known, will get their opportunity. They will be judged during the thousand year reign of Christ and his elect. The only ones judged before then are the “sheep and the goats”.....these are the ones living now in this judgment period called “the time of the end”......the time when the message of the kingdom has been preached “in all the inhabited earth as a witness”, either for people who have accepted it, or against those who rejected it. There will be no excuses when Christ comes as judge.....he will reward the sheep with everlasting life....and punish the goats with eternal death. That’s it.

This is without a doubt the most egregious doctrine that one might espouse! It gives people in unbelief false hope that they might even after physical death have opportunity to saved. Scripture is abundantly clear that if we have not turned to Christ in repentance for forgiveness of our sins, when we physically die the next conscious moment for will be Judgment! The greatest lie foisted upon the Word of God is that there will still be more time, exactly one thousand years to find life! It's a lie from the pit of hell, and Satan loves this lie because its the same lie he used to deceive Adam & Eve, "thou shalt not surely die"! Only the MANY, not ALL who look for Christ to come the second time will be found without sin unto salvation. The rest will be cast into the lake of fire that is the second death.

Hebrews 9:26-28 (KJV) For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

 

[rwb]

I cannot find anything in the Bible, that is even close to what you just suggested. Who said that we are “spiritually alive eternally”? And who is “we”? The scripture quoted above tells us that the saints 'sleep in death' until Christ’s return.....so where is the evidence for the belief that the word “eternal” applies to anyone but God alone? “Eternal” means “having no beginning or end”....every living thing had a beginning......except the Creator.

Did or does not Christ say, "whoever lives and believes in Him shall never die"??? Remember Christ said this after knowing Lazarus had physically died. Even though Lazarus was dead, Christ gave us assurance that he would live because the life we have in Christ is eternal. Clearly Christ is not referring to Lazarus' body that was DEAD. So, what part of mankind shall never die when we have been born again in Christ Jesus our Lord? Eternal means everlasting, never ending/perpetual, forever.

Strong's Greek Dictionary
166. αἰώνιος aionios (aiṓnios)
Search for G166 in KJVSL; in KJV.

αἰώνιος aiṓnios, ahee-o'-nee-os

perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well):—eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).

What part of humankind shall be eternally alive that was not eternally alive at birth, since it cannot be our human bodies?

John 3:15 (KJV) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

John 5:39 (KJV) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

John 6:54 (KJV) Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

 

[Aunty Jane]

I prefer to use a translation of Holy Writ that has already withstood the test of time.

The "holy writ"?.....surely you can't mean the KJV..?.....the most biased translation in existence that has corrupted the teachings of the Christ through very inaccurate renderings, not to mention its archaic language that has to be understood in the light of original language words, (not Christendom's erroneous translations) or else false ideas will be the result. That result is the divided churches of Christendom. Disunity is the mark of apostasy. (1 Cor 1:10) God's spirit does not speak with a forked tongue....its God's adversary who does that....the sower of the "weeds".

The KJV is not "holy writ"...it is the product of a corrupt church system. It was once the only Bible I possessed, now it is one I seldom even refer to, unless it is to refute the errors it contains. We have much better linguistic skills now.....thank God!

Matha, apparently like you, believed that physical death meant her brother Lazarus would not have life again until the physical resurrection that shall be when the last trump sounds (1Cor 15:51-54). Martha needed to understand that death of the body is not the end of life for her brother.

LOL...and you are going to teach Martha what Jesus himself didn't?

Jesus was Jewish, speaking to a Jewish disciple who was well acquainted with the teachings of this frequent visitor to their home.
Martha knew very well what death meant according to Jewish scripture.....but having a Bible translation that fails to differentiate between "hades", "gehenna", "tartarus" and "the lake of fire", is it any wonder that there are false ideas promoted? There is no such place as Christendom's "hell"....there is no immortal soul to even go there.

Christendom hasn't got a clue about death or even why Jesus chose his elect.....you all behave as if you are collectively part of that specific group, when none of you can agree on much at all. I have yet to hear what you all imagine that you are going to do up there when it was never in God's original purpose to take any humans to heaven. He created us to live on earth forever. The devil hijacked the human race for his own selfish ambition to become "like God" to them......God handed the humans over to the ruler they chose to obey....and he rules them and always has through the systems of governments that he installed in every nation, each with their own false religious ideas. (Luke 4:5-8) All worship that is rejected by the true God, goes to the devil by default.

And to prove this Christ raised Lazarus to physical life again. But that's not the end of the words of Christ. He wanted Martha to know that believers in Him need have no fear of physical death, because even though humans have a destiny with physical death that does not mean we are without life. So He tells Martha, "whosoever lives and believes in me shall NEVER die."

Read it again.....it is speaking of the time of Christ's return....those who put faith in him, whether of the elect or of the "the great crowd" of Christians who do not have the "heavenly calling".....if they are alive when he comes as judge, they will never see death at all. He has promised to see them through the coming "great tribulation" so that death will not overtake them....and even if they do die for whatever reason, a resurrection is assured. (Rev 7:9-10, 13-14)

Christ is referring to eternal life believers receive when we are in Him through His Spirit in us. Our bodies may die but the eternal spirit life we have through the Spirit of Christ in us will not die, because it will return to God who gave it when our bodies become a corpse. (Ecc 12:7)

No, sorry...eternal life can only be ascribed to the Creator as Strongs Concordance defines "aiōnios" as....

1. without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
2. without beginning
3. without end, never to cease, everlasting..

So you see the word "aiōnios" more correctly means "life without end" or "everlasting life"....but it has a beginning.
Perhaps you need to brush up on your homework a bit and not just accept what Christendom has taught YOU...?

Yes, Martha was right to understand physical resurrection of our bodies too shall come in the resurrection at the last day, but in Christ we are promised eternal life through His Spirit that is life in the present, and life that will not end when our body breathes its last.

There is nothing in the Bible that alters the Jewish belief about death....that a return to the dust is the end of this life and that "the resurrection on the last day" is what Jesus promised to those who "sleep" for however long it was to take for the Kingdom to "come" and for God's will to be "done on earth as it is in heaven".

Are you conscious when you sleep?...was Lazarus? Did he say anything about where he was before Jesus brought him back to life? Did Jesus say that Lazarus' spirit had gone somewhere else? (John 11:11-14)
If no one went to heaven before Jesus, (John 3:13) then what happened to all those faithful men and women of old who lived and died before Christ came as Messiah? Paul tells us that they did not get the fulfillment of the promises but saw them afar off. (Hebrews 11:13)

Even Job expected time spent in "sheol" before God called him from his grave. He even prayed to go there to end his suffering.

Job 14:13-15...
"If a man dies, can he live again?
I will wait all the days of my compulsory service
Until my relief comes. You will call, and I will answer you.
You will long for the work of your hands."
Job's "compulsory service" was 'conscription' to death...the time he would spend "sleeping".

Jesus gave his disciples a clearer view about the location and purpose of the kingdom in which he reigns as King but the Bible's teachings about death and resurrection are lost in the immortal soul doctrine.....a resurrection is a restoration to life of someone who has died......the fact is, you cannot resurrect someone who is not dead.

 

[MatthewG]

It's good to know it is all your opinion, @Aunty Jane it cuts a lot of the pressure of responding as you believe how you do.

A question though I would like to know though is,

Where do you expect or hope to go when you die?

 

[Aunty Jane]

A question though I would like to know though is,

Where do you expect or hope to go when you die?

Since mankind were not created to die, death is still a foreign concept to us, because in all these thousands of years since Adam's creation, we have never embraced death as anything but what the Bible calls it....an "enemy". We dread it...we fight it....we never see it as fair, taking our loved ones away, even to a better place...if that was true, we would be rejoicing, not grieving.

If we have in mind the big picture.....we will see that God created humankind in his own image and likeness, to become the caretaker of all that he had made to live here, permanently, without a natural cause of death ruining everything.....but the devil took the humans on a terrible detour, introducing sin and death to all of us, simply because he wanted to be worshipped. He was not created as a wicked creature, but through selfish desire became a devil and resister...God's chief adversary. He even influenced other angels to rebel with him.

Jehovah gave rulership of this world over to the one whom the humans chose to obey, (Luke 4:5-8) in order to show both humans and angels the value of obedience and the folly of thinking that the Creator can be put in the back seat, allowing autonomy. He would show them what their disobedience would result in.....apparently because these free-willed creatures couldn't be told.

Satan's rulership was permitted for an allotted time, which we see from scripture is about to come to an end, and the kingdom of God is about to become man's only governing body. (Daniel 2:44) Those chosen for roles in the heavenly kingdom (the elect) will leave their fleshly bodies behind and experience being "born again" as spirit beings to dwell in the presence of God. These alone are granted immortality.
These were promised positions as "kings and priests" (Rev 20:6) who will assist Jesus in leading the alienated human race back to God....in complete reconciliation.

The elect are chosen for a specific role and these are a finite number.....144,000.
There is another group who do not have "the heavenly calling"......these John says "come out of the great tribulation" which takes place on earth as a prelude to the end of satan's entire system operating on the earth. These form the nucleus of the "new earth" ruled over by the "new heavens"....the place from which they administer their rulership. (2 Peter 3:13)

If I die, I know that a peaceful "sleep" awaits me, and that I will be resurrected back to this life on an earth transformed back into the paradise conditions that God first intended. Because I do not have the "heavenly calling" (Heb 3:1) I hope to be a subject of God's Kingdom, rather than a ruler or priest in it.

 

[MatthewG]

If I die, I know that a peaceful "sleep" awaits me, and that I will be resurrected back to this life on an earth transformed back into the paradise conditions that God first intended. Because I do not have the "heavenly calling" (Heb 3:1) I hope to be a subject of God's Kingdom, rather than a ruler or priest in it.

Okay, Jane.

Love to you, carry on, and may the spirit guide,

Matthew

 

[Aunty Jane]

Yes, the body returns to dust from which it was created, BUT the spirit returns to God who gave it (Ecc 12:7). The question we must each consider while alive on earth is, will our spirit (breath of life) return to God after physical death alive through His indwelling Spirit, or will our spirit return to God in darkness and unbelief and without hope?

Neither of those scenarios is scripturally valid.....the spirit is not an entity.....it is not conscious, nor does it have personality. The "spirit" that returns to God is the restoration of life (and breath) in a resurrection on the "new earth" to come....not a new planet, but a cleansed earth where Jesus has eliminated from existence all who oppose his incoming kingdom.

Nowhere does it say in the Bible that we have an immortal soul. It is impossible because immortals cannot die. Earth bound creatures are all mortal, fully dependent on the means God created to sustain their lives here.

The physical body goes into the grave, and no they are not conscious. The story of Lazarus and the rich man gives us a pretty good idea about the beliefs regarding the grave for those who have done good and those who have done evil during their lives. It is written that in death the rich was physically dead and buried, but Lazarus was carried by the angels to a place the Old Testament Jews called the "bosom of Abraham". Why do you believe that considered the grave for the rich man was one of burning and suffering, but the place for Lazarus was in comfort? It seems that the one who showed himself to be self-centered and uncaring of the poor has a destiny with the second death that is the lake of fire at Judgment Day. But the one pitied by God has eternal spiritual life, and at the Judgment Day his destiny shall be immortal physical life on the new earth. As Ezekiel tells us the mortal soul (body & spirit) shall suffer the second death once their body goes into the grave in unbelief. But mortality and immortality belong to the flesh, and those in the flesh who are of faith in Christ have eternal life through the Spirit of Christ and shall never die.

You do understand that "the rich man and Lazarus" is a parable? It is not to be taken literally because to do so would contravene everything Jesus and his apostles taught. The rich man represented the Pharisees, and the beggar represented the "lost sheep" to whom Jesus was sent. The rich man feasted on God's word whilst he kept the poor beggar spiritually malnourished. They both died to their former status and traded places...."the bosom of Abraham" to a Jew meant a position of favor with God, and this was lost by those who wickedly plotted to have his son silenced. That favored position was then given to the disciples of Jesus, giving the rich man cause to be in anguish. Jesus denounced them on a regular basis, making them hate him enough to want him dead. It wasn't the first time they had rejected or killed God's prophets. (Matt 23:3-39)

Ask yourself....are heaven and hell within speaking distance to one another? Will a drop of water on a man's finger cool someone in a fire?
Taken literally it is ridiculous! Fire is used figuratively throughout the Bible.
The fire of Gehenna was literal, because it was Jerusalem's garbage dump, where fires were kept burning day and night to consume the refuse. Human garbage was also thrown into the flames for disposal, representing the fact that this person was not worthy of a resurrection. Gehenna is not "hell" and neither is "hades".

those of his people, Israel of Old, the remnant according to election of grace, are saved, and since Christ came and defeated Satan, sin and death, they are now spiritually alive in heaven with Christ and will be there until the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven is complete and the last trump sounds for Christ to return with them (spirit) and through the spirit their mortal body will be resurrected immortal and incorruptible to live with Christ on the new earth forever.

According to God's grace, a remnant of natural Israel was certainly saved, (as Isaiah prophesied) because Jesus was sent to the Jews exclusively. That "remnant" became disciples of Jesus Christ, but they did not fill the whole number, so according to Acts 15:14 God turned to the Gentiles to make up the full number of Kingdom rulers and priests. Israel was given first option, but the majority failed to recognize their Messiah because of the wicked leadership of the Pharisees whom Jesus condemned to gehenna. (Matt 23:33)
The only Israel "saved" is "the Israel of God"...not failed fleshly Israel, but spiritual Israel. (Gal 6:16)

1 Thessalonians 4:14 (KJV) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Yes those who "sleep in Jesus", which means that they died faithful assured of their heavenly reward. They are "resurrected first" to take up their positions and will accompany Jesus on the day of his judgment.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Okay, Jane.

Love to you, carry on, and may the spirit guide,

Matthew

Thank you Matthew...it always has....

 

[rwb]

The "holy writ"?.....surely you can't mean the KJV..?.....the most biased translation in existence that has corrupted the teachings of the Christ through very inaccurate renderings, not to mention its archaic language that has to be understood in the light of original language words, (not Christendom's erroneous translations) or else false ideas will be the result. That result is the divided churches of Christendom. Disunity is the mark of apostasy. (1 Cor 1:10) God's spirit does not speak with a forked tongue....its God's adversary who does that....the sower of the "weeds".

And through it's use over the many, many decades has eternally saved more people than your NWT can ever begin to! You want to talk about bias, perhaps an honest evaluation of a translation that did not exist before the 1800's, and originated from so-called faithful men, you would do well to look in the mirror! I realize for some people the language of the KJV is difficult, that's probably why the NWT so unfamiliar to most, having been dumbed down for the immature. The true forked tongue are words that flow from people who have been brain-washed by a cult, claiming to have the words of God and follow the doctrine of men! It is the NWT that is the sower of the "weeds"!

The KJV is not "holy writ"...it is the product of a corrupt church system. It was once the only Bible I possessed, now it is one I seldom even refer to, unless it is to refute the errors it contains. We have much better linguistic skills now.....thank God!

It seems the pot is calling the kettle black! Yes, the KJV is linked to the Strong's Concordance, and for those who are truly interested in understanding the meaning of the words of Hebrew and Greek the KJV translators used, this book is relatively inexpensive. Why not talk about the errors contained in your NWT, you call a bible? The faithless men who created the NWT have so twisted the Word of God that this translation has lost all ability to lead one to Christ for salvation!

Jesus was Jewish, speaking to a Jewish disciple who was well acquainted with the teachings of this frequent visitor to their home.
Martha knew very well what death meant according to Jewish scripture.....but having a Bible translation that fails to differentiate between "hades", "gehenna", "tartarus" and "the lake of fire", is it any wonder that there are false ideas promoted? There is no such place as Christendom's "hell"....there is no immortal soul to even go there.

Let us know when you use a translation that faithfully translates and perhaps someone will listen to your droning on and on!

Christendom hasn't got a clue about death or even why Jesus chose his elect.....you all behave as if you are collectively part of that specific group, when none of you can agree on much at all. I have yet to hear what you all imagine that you are going to do up there when it was never in God's original purpose to take any humans to heaven.

Did someone say that HUMANS would go to heaven? I certainly have not! I could say it s-l-o-w-l-y for you face to face, but here I can only once more repeat what I've already stated. It is the spirit that gives man's body life that returns to God in heaven when our body becomes a corpse! That is NOT humans going to heaven! It is the true Word of God that tells us this FACT. Perhaps it is not found in your NWT, because it is considered too difficult for some to hear the truth. See Ecc 12:7

Read it again.....it is speaking of the time of Christ's return....those who put faith in him, whether of the elect or of the "the great crowd" of Christians who do not have the "heavenly calling".....if they are alive when he comes as judge, they will never see death at all. He has promised to see them through the coming "great tribulation" so that death will not overtake them....and even if they do die for whatever reason, a resurrection is assured. (Rev 7:9-10, 13-14)

Sorry Aunty Jane, but once again you have not the truth! Christ tells Martha those who live and believe in Him "shall never die." We know Christ is speaking of eternal spirit life we receive when we live and believe because before saying this He says, "though he were dead, yet shall he live". That is not speaking of the faithful still alive at His second coming as you imagine. Why are you denying or trying to twist the Words of Christ?

John 11:25-26 (KJV) Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

No, sorry...eternal life can only be ascribed to the Creator as Strongs Concordance defines "aiōnios" as....

1. without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
2. without beginning
3. without end, never to cease, everlasting..

So you see the word "aiōnios" more correctly means "life without end" or "everlasting life"....but it has a beginning.
Perhaps you need to brush up on your homework a bit and not just accept what Christendom has taught YOU...?

According to the Strong's Concordance:

Strong's Greek Dictionary
166. αἰώνιος aionios (aiṓnios)
Search for G166 in KJVSL; in KJV.

αἰώνιος aiṓnios, ahee-o'-nee-os

perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well):—eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).

So 'eternal' followed by 'life' in Scripture, according to Strong's shall endure forever, perpetual, never ending since the world began. Of course eternal life for man has a beginning, otherwise we would all be born eternally secure in Him. The beginning of our eternal life through His Spirit in us is when we have been born again. And the life we receive through the spirit in us shall NEVER end.

Since we're traveling I don't have time to reply to the rest of the nonsense JW's believe. Perhaps later or another day?

 

[Aunty Jane]

So 'eternal' followed by 'life' in Scripture, according to Strong's shall endure forever, perpetual, never ending since the world began. Of course eternal life for man has a beginning, otherwise we would all be born eternally secure in Him. The beginning of our eternal life through His Spirit in us is when we have been born again. And the life we receive through the spirit in us shall NEVER end.

LOL….I love the way you admit that “eternal” life, as translated by the KJV has a “beginning” despite what Strongs tells us about the word “eternal” meaning “no beginning or end”.

“Life without end“ or “everlasting life” is more correct, and yet still you deny the truth…..interesting.
It’s an important difference because when humans were created, “immortality” was never in the equation.

Humans were created mortal, otherwise the command not to eat of that one tree under penalty of death, would have been meaningless. So what was God’s purpose in creating humankind as mortal beings in a material environment designed to meet their every need. Where does eternal life in heaven fit into that scenario? What is the big picture?

You use the term “we” as if all who call themselves “Christians“ have the same destiny. I am grateful that the truth has been told in this “time of the end” as Daniel said that it would. “Knowledge”, genuine truth, (as opposed to the scriptural ignorance fostered by the church system) would become “abundant”. (Daniel 12:4,9-10) The “time of the end” was to be a time of great separation of the “wheat” from the “weeds”….a time for an inconvenient truth to triumph, however “few” would be found on the road to life, whilst the “many” travel ignorantly on the superhighway to death, watering down God’s word and standards, putting the false teachings of a dominant yet hopelessly divided church system before Bible truth.

Very “few”, relatively speaking will ever attain a heavenly reward. The saints (chosen ones) were to sleep in their graves until the time of Christ’s return and only then would they be “born again” as spirit beings so that they can dwell in a spiritual realm, in God’s presence…..yet you deny Paul’s words about that too. What else do you deny?
Who is indoctrinated really? Are the ones screaming “heresy”, the real heretics?

I have heard much criticism about the NWT, but to date no one has ever pointed out where the errors are.
In my own studies over many decades, the errors contained in the KJV continue to lead people away from the truth as it always has. We have so many resources at our disposal today online, so at the click of a mouse, we can research any topic as deeply as we wish. No one has an excuse for ignorance today, which is why the “goats” will go off into everlasting death…..not everlasting torture. God has no desire or need to keep them in existence.

Since we're traveling I don't have time to reply to the rest of the nonsense JW's believe. Perhaps later or another day?

Well, there is nonsense being promoted here, but it’s up to the readers to decide who is promoting it? This is why we need truthful discussion based entirely on scripture, and the whole story as told by God’s servants in his word.…from Genesis to Revelation…there is no such thing as an “Old Testament” and a “New Testament”….these terms set the theme for Christendom’s departure from its Jewish roots. Jesus was Jewish, after all…

interestingly, when Jesus came the first time, he promoted God’s truth to a very hostile majority, whose leaders promoted something very different to what he taught, yet claiming to worship the same God. Jesus warned that his true servants would be a hated, persecuted minority. (John 15:18-21) Those who chose to stay with the comfortable yet erroneous religious system in which they were raised, lost out on what Jesus was offering. Lies don’t seem like lies to those who believe them….so we can let Jesus tell us who are the genuine Christians and who are the ones willingly deceived by God’s adversary. In his world, nothing is as it seems. (1 John 5:19)

 

[rwb]

There is nothing in the Bible that alters the Jewish belief about death....that a return to the dust is the end of this life and that "the resurrection on the last day" is what Jesus promised to those who "sleep" for however long it was to take for the Kingdom to "come" and for God's will to be "done on earth as it is in heaven".

No one is arguing against the belief that when this natural, mortal, corruptible body dies it is the end of physical existence. The physical body of believers will not be alive again until it is resurrected to immortality and incorruptible when the last trump sounds. That's when time given this earth for building the Kingdom of God through the proclamation of the Gospel in the power of the Holy Spirit shall be no longer.

Revelation 10:5-7 (KJV) And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Believers get there changed resurrected immortal & incorruptible bodies with their eternal spirit that returns with Christ, when the last/seventh trump sounds, and they shall once again be whole and fit to inhabit the new earth forever.

Are you conscious when you sleep?...was Lazarus? Did he say anything about where he was before Jesus brought him back to life? Did Jesus say that Lazarus' spirit had gone somewhere else? (John 11:11-14)
If no one went to heaven before Jesus, (John 3:13) then what happened to all those faithful men and women of old who lived and died before Christ came as Messiah? Paul tells us that they did not get the fulfillment of the promises but saw them afar off. (Hebrews 11:13)

The body is a corpse! There is no life in a corpse, which is why it is called a corpse! Lazarus' body was a corpse, altogether without life. And though the Old Covenant faithful saints could not ascend to heaven filled with spirit life through the Holy Spirit in them, the parable tells us that Lazarus was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. It was not his body carried there it was a corpse. But his spirit returned to God who gave it. That could not yet be heaven, because no man ascended to heaven before Christ made atonement for our sins, and defeated death. But Scripture is clear that He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. Wherever Abraham's bosom represented, we know that Old Covenant faithful saints spirits returned to heaven ALIVE.

Matthew 22:32 (KJV) I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Mark 12:26-27 (KJV) And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

Luke 20:37-38 (KJV) Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.

All of the faithful Old Covenant saints understood well that they would not be physically alive again the end of days. They knew with great assurance in faith that even though they would physically die, they would physically see the Lord again when the end of time comes.

Jesus gave his disciples a clearer view about the location and purpose of the kingdom in which he reigns as King but the Bible's teachings about death and resurrection are lost in the immortal soul doctrine.....a resurrection is a restoration to life of someone who has died......the fact is, you cannot resurrect someone who is not dead.

You are unable to understand that mankind is not a one dimensional being! We are made of a physical body destined to die, and a spirit that gives our body the breath of life. If in life we have been born again of the Spirit from Christ, then our spirit is eternal and shall never die even though our body will. It is only the dead in body and spirit that know nothing, and are in darkness, silence and unbelief until the hour coming when the last trump sounds and all the dead in the graves shall be resurrected to life or damnation.

 

[rwb]

Neither of those scenarios is scripturally valid.....the spirit is not an entity.....it is not conscious, nor does it have personality. The "spirit" that returns to God is the restoration of life (and breath) in a resurrection on the "new earth" to come....not a new planet, but a cleansed earth where Jesus has eliminated from existence all who oppose his incoming kingdom.

Nowhere does it say in the Bible that we have an immortal soul. It is impossible because immortals cannot die. Earth bound creatures are all mortal, fully dependent on the means God created to sustain their lives here.

The spirit in man is the breath of life with which our body lives! The spirit is our control center. It operates every function of our body, and sends messages from our brain and heart, and circulatory system. Without the breath of life our spirit gives us, our body would be a corpse, never experiencing life, emotions, pain, sorrow, joy, love, hate. All these functions come from our spirit. That's why when the spirit departs our body to ascend back to God, our body becomes a corpse.

The body of every living, breathing creature upon the earth is mortal and destined to become sick and die, or grow old and die. That is also true of our natural spirit, it too shall return to God without life IF IF IF we have not the Spirit of Christ in our spirit when we die. With the Spirit of Christ in us, our spirit is eternal. Because Christ gave us this promise that when we believe in Him we shall have eternal life. Our bodies are not eternal, they are mortal and they die. But through Christ we HAVE eternal life and that life spirit/soul returns to God in heaven ALIVE eternally, and will once again give our body new life. But then the life our body shall have will be immortal and incorruptible, never again to grow weak, sick, or old and die.

 

[rwb]

LOL….I love the way you admit that “eternal” life, as translated by the KJV has a “beginning” despite what Strongs tells us about the word “eternal” meaning “no beginning or end”.

You seem to be confusing 'eternal' life with 'immortal'. That which is immortal (God alone) and that which shall be immortal (the resurrected bodies of faithful saints) means un-decaying, indestructible in essence. The immortal God is the beginning and the end, the first and the last, in Him there is no beginning and there is no end. The same shall be of the body of man who is resurrected immortal and incorruptible. That which BECOMES eternal, the spirit of man, through the Spirit of Christ, shall always be eternal. When Scripture speaks of the "eternal God" who was, and is and is to come, He has no beginning He was before or in front of every other creation. So He is immortal, eternal, God!

 

[Aunty Jane]

You are unable to understand that mankind is not a one dimensional being! We are made of a physical body destined to die, and a spirit that gives our body the breath of life.

actually, if you read the Genesis account, there was only one cause of death in Eden…..disobedience to God’s command. The “tree of life” was also in the garden, guaranteeing that obedient ones could partake of it and “live forever”….not as an immortal in heaven, but in mortal flesh here in paradise on earth. Our bodies, though mortal can die, but there was no natural cause of death mentioned to Adam……in fact those closer to the original perfection with which Adam was created, lived for hundreds of years…..Methuselah live to be 969! Adam live to be 930….so sin was the only cause of death…..
What did God say after Adam’s sin?
Gen 3:22-24….
”The Lord God then said: “Here the man has become like one of us in knowing good and bad. Now in order that he may not put his hand out and take fruit also from the tree of life and eat and live forever,—” 23 With that Jehovah God expelled him from the garden of Eʹden to cultivate the ground from which he had been taken. 24 So he drove the man out, and he posted at the east of the garden of Eʹden the cherubs and the flaming blade of a sword that was turning continuously to guard the way to the tree of life.”

Eviction from the garden made access to their source of continuing life impossible…..sin was now in every part of their being, so the tree of life was taken away from them, or rather they were removed from everything God had made for their enjoyment of life in paradise. The tree of life originally had no prohibition, only the TKGE was forbidden and eating of its fruit carried the death penalty.

Unless you know what we lost, you have no idea what will be given back....

If in life we have been born again of the Spirit from Christ, then our spirit is eternal and shall never die even though our body will. It is only the dead in body and spirit that know nothing, and are in darkness, silence and unbelief until the hour coming when the last trump sounds and all the dead in the graves shall be resurrected to life or damnation.

What do you believe that being “born again” means? I find it hard to pin anyone down who can explain what exactly takes place when this occurs. How does the Bible explain it?

What you have stated here finds no support in the Bible. There is no such thing as “damnation”….that is an invention of the church like the fires of hell and eternal suffering, used to keep the ignorant masses under their control……there is only everlasting life or everlasting death in the Bible, not heaven or hell…..

 

[St. SteVen]

The souls of the wicked are punished with everlasting presence, all alone in the blackness and darkness of being absent from God.

This is a curious statement.
A combination of questionable doctrine and conflicting biblical facts.
How can "the wicked are punished with everlasting presence, all alone
in the blackness and darkness of being absent from God"?
Present, or absent?

 

[ElieG12]

This is a curious statement.
A combination of questionable doctrine and conflicting biblical facts.
How can "the wicked are punished with everlasting presence, all alone
in the blackness and darkness of being absent from God"?
Present, or absent?

The Bible says that immortality is a prize to the brothers of Christ.

1 Cor. 15:53 For this which is corruptible must put on incorruption, and this which is mortal must put on immortality. 54 But when this which is corruptible puts on incorruption and this which is mortal puts on immortality, then the saying that is written will take place: “Death is swallowed up forever.” 55 “Death, where is your victory? Death, where is your sting?” 56 The sting producing death is sin, and the power for sin is the Law. 57 But thanks to God, for he gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ!

Some people teach that the wicked are immortal just because.

 

[ScottA]

Such confusion regarding the term "soul!"

Such confusion comes because it would appear that the "soul" is not actually body or spirit. Thus these many wild speculations. But what would anyone of us call a creation given a body and a mind that walks and talks but has been sentenced to death and faces a choice of life or death during this timeout Satan would call life? Indeed, "sleep" and "captive" are both appropriate terms. But why? Why is it at all necessary to come up with words to describe the stasis of being put on hold between eternity and eternity where this valley of decision only seems like a lifetime where God would only dare to go?

...Because, it only exists within the mind--or soul...where time does not actually tick.

And how would you otherwise define existence first defined as a "void?"

We kid ourselves...and as long as Satan has even the least bit of hold on us...we too continue to call this "life." He was wrong, and so are we, if we make this would-be existence out to be more than a valley and void of decision existing only in the minds of those condemned.

I could elaborate, but this hurdle must first be crossed.

 

[St. SteVen]

The Bible says that immortality is a prize to the brothers of Christ.

Sounds like bad news for our sisters in Christ. - LOL
I will certainly miss them.