Our souls apart from our bodies

[Always Believing]

We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

Our souls apart from our dead bodies, are an abiding presence with knowledge and ability to speak and hear, whether in heaven or hell.

Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

Our body on earth is a temporary domicile for our souls, and a physical presence by which we speak and act. At the death of our bodies, our souls are a spiritual presence temporarily at home in heaven or hell. It is only until the resurrection of our bodies, whether to be present forever with God, or to be punished forever absent from the Lord.

No soul ever ceases to be present with knowledge, whether with God or apart from God.

The souls of the wicked are punished with everlasting presence, all alone in the blackness and darkness of being absent from God.

These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;

Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

The chains of hell are dark chains, and the presence of God dwelling with man is light, where there is no darkness at all.

Our choice really is simple: either dwell and walk in the true light with Jesus today on earth, or walk in the darkness of sin forever. Only there won't be any fellow sinners to know and talk with after the resurrection unto judgement.

 

[Always Believing]

Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them, and be established in the present truth.

The present truth of our souls, is how we are living today. Our present truth at the end of our physical presence on earth, will determine our present truth forever, whether being present with the Lord, or absent and alone.

 

[Aunty Jane]

We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

Our souls apart from our dead bodies, are an abiding presence with knowledge and ability to speak and hear, whether in heaven or hell.

Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

Our body on earth is a temporary domicile for our souls, and a physical presence by which we speak and act. At the death of our bodies, our souls are a spiritual presence temporarily at home in heaven or hell. It is only until the resurrection of our bodies, whether to be present forever with God, or to be punished forever absent from the Lord.

No soul ever ceases to be present with knowledge, whether with God or apart from God.

The souls of the wicked are punished with everlasting presence, all alone in the blackness and darkness of being absent from God.

These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;

Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

The chains of hell are dark chains, and the presence of God dwelling with man is light, where there is no darkness at all.

Our choice really is simple: either dwell and walk in the true light with Jesus today on earth, or walk in the darkness of sin forever. Only there won't be any fellow sinners to know and talk with after the resurrection unto judgement.

Wherever you got all that...it wasn't from scripture. The scriptures you quoted are twisted to imply that what you have been taught is true.....when it is the exact opposite.
There is no "heaven or hell" scenario as opposite destinations for the soul....that is not a Bible teaching at all. The soul is not immortal and does not survive the death of the body. (Ezekiel 18:4)

Humans were designed to live forever on a very carefully and lovingly prepared planet Earth.....nowhere does it say that Adam expected to go to 'heaven of hell'. He was told that if he disobeyed God's command, he would die, and that he would return to the dust out of which he was created.

All that you have written is what is taught by Christendom's church system.....unfortunately, there is no truth in any of it.

 

[Robert Gwin]

We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

Our souls apart from our dead bodies, are an abiding presence with knowledge and ability to speak and hear, whether in heaven or hell.

Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

Our body on earth is a temporary domicile for our souls, and a physical presence by which we speak and act. At the death of our bodies, our souls are a spiritual presence temporarily at home in heaven or hell. It is only until the resurrection of our bodies, whether to be present forever with God, or to be punished forever absent from the Lord.

No soul ever ceases to be present with knowledge, whether with God or apart from God.

The souls of the wicked are punished with everlasting presence, all alone in the blackness and darkness of being absent from God.

These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;

Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

The chains of hell are dark chains, and the presence of God dwelling with man is light, where there is no darkness at all.

Our choice really is simple: either dwell and walk in the true light with Jesus today on earth, or walk in the darkness of sin forever. Only there won't be any fellow sinners to know and talk with after the resurrection unto judgement.

A soul is a breathing creature, it has to have a body as it is a body.

 

[MatthewG]

Reminds me of this verse,

Believers Who Have Died​

13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.


Assured is the soul - that is given to you by God - going to leave the body and go onward to the heavenly realm.



That is the biggest hope, of the Christian. Not to lay in the grave waiting, but dying, - with judgement, resurrection, and placement either in the Kingdom or outside of the Kingdom of God (would be the place for unbelievers); Check against (Revelation 21-22).

 

[Papa Smurf]

Our souls apart from our dead bodies, are an abiding presence with knowledge and ability to speak and hear, whether in heaven or hell.

Hello Always Believing, I agree, as does the Bible and the whole of the historic Christian church, IOW, all of us, Catholic, Orthodox and Protestant. Here are some of the Scriptures that show us why the teaching of the sleep of the soul is considered to be heretical by one and all.

Matthew 17​

1 Six days later Jesus took with Him Peter and James and John his brother, and led them up on a high mountain by themselves.​

2 And He was transfigured before them; and His face shone like the sun, and His garments became as white as light.​

3 And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him.​

​

Matthew 22 ​

32 ‘I AM THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, AND THE GOD OF ISAAC, AND THE GOD OF JACOB’? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.” ​

​

Luke 16​

19 There was a rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, joyously living in splendor every day.​

20 And a poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores,​

21 and longing to be fed with the crumbs which were falling from the rich man’s table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores.​

22 Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried.​

23 In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.​

24 And he cried out and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.’​

25 But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony.​

26 ‘And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.’​

27 And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father’s house—​

28 for I have five brothers—in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’​

29 But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’​

30 But he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!’​

31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’​

​

2 Corinthians 5​

6 We are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord.​

7 For we walk by faith, not by sight.​

8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.​

9 Therefore we make it our aim, ~whether present or absent~, to be well pleasing to Him.​

​

Philippians 1​

21 To me, to live is Christ and to die is gain.​

22 But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose.​

23 But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better;​

24 yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake.​

25 Convinced of this, I know that I will remain and continue with you all for your progress and joy in the faith,​

26 so that your proud confidence in me may abound in Christ Jesus through my coming to you again.​

​

Revelation 6​

9 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained;​

10 and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”​

11 And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.​

.​

And here are some of the arguments that are made against soul sleep on the basis of the Scriptures that I just posted above.

1) Moses and Elijah met with the Lord Jesus and the Apostles on top of the Mount of Transfiguration. If the doctrine of Soul Sleep is true, how were they able to do that?​

​

2) How can those who are absent from the body make it their aim to be well-pleasing to the Lord, if their souls are not conscious when they are with Him after they die?​

​

3) How could Paul have possibly believed that is was better to depart and be with Christ, if "being with Christ" meant nothing more than lying interred in an unconscious state until the end of the age?​

​

4) How could the Apostle say that, "to die is gain", if dying means nothing more than lying dead in the ground with our bodies until the resurrection?​

​

5) Finally, how do those who are in Hades, Paradise, and/or under the altar in Heaven, "cry out in a loud voice", if their souls are not conscious in death :scratch:​

.​

It's because of passages such as these that ALL of our churches and denominations (as I said above) within the pale of Christian orthodoxy (specifically), and within historic Christianity (in general), have taught/continue to teach that the doctrine of the "Sleep of the Soul" during the Intermediate State is heretical.

God bless you!!

--Papa Smurf

 

[Aunty Jane]

1) Moses and Elijah met with the Lord Jesus and the Apostles on top of the Mount of Transfiguration. If the doctrine of Soul Sleep is true, how were they able to do that?

How? Read the account and what follows....
Matthew 17:1-9....
"Six days later Jesus took Peter and James and his brother John along and led them up into a lofty mountain by themselves. 2 And he was transfigured before them; his face shone as the sun, and his outer garments became brilliant as the light. 3 And look! there appeared to them Moses and E·liʹjah conversing with him. 4 Then Peter said to Jesus: “Lord, it is fine for us to be here. If you wish, I will erect three tents here, one for you, one for Moses, and one for E·liʹjah.” 5 While he was still speaking, look! a bright cloud overshadowed them, and look! a voice out of the cloud said: “This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved. Listen to him.” 6 At hearing this, the disciples fell facedown and became very much afraid. 7 Then Jesus came near, and touching them, he said: “Get up. Have no fear.” 8 When they looked up, they saw no one but Jesus himself. 9 As they were descending from the mountain, Jesus commanded them: “Tell the vision to no one until the Son of man is raised up from the dead.”
It was a "vision" in fulfillment of a promise Jesus made to his disciples...
"Truly I say to you that there are some of those standing here who will not taste death at all until first they see the Son of man coming in his Kingdom.” (Matt 16:28)

Peter, James and John saw the glorified Christ in his Kingdom in a illustrative way, Jesus representing himself as the glorified King, Moses representing the Law, and Elijah representing the prophets....these are the very foundations of the Kingdom pictured by Israel.
This vision was given to the apostles, but they were not to speak of it until Jesus was resurrected.

With regard to Elijah, Jesus confirmed that Elijah had come already in a representative way in John the Baptist.
"However, the disciples put the question to him: “Why, then, do the scribes say that E·liʹjah must come first?” 11 In reply he said: “E·liʹjah is indeed coming and will restore all things. 12 However, I say to you that E·liʹjah has already come, and they did not recognize him but did whatever they wanted with him. In this way also, the Son of man is going to suffer at their hands.” 13 Then the disciples perceived that he spoke to them about John the Baptist." (Matt 1:10-13)

2) How can those who are absent from the body make it their aim to be well-pleasing to the Lord, if their souls are not conscious when they are with Him after they die?

Jesus said that his friend Lazarus was "sleeping" and that he was going to awaken him. (John 11:11-14)
Where was Lazarus before Jesus woke him up after 4 days in his tomb?
Those who "sleep" are unaware of the passing of time, (as we do when we are awakened at night, we have to look at a clock to see what time it is because being asleep makes time disappear) therefore when Christ's disciples are awakened, it will be as though they closed their eyes but a moment ago....I think that is a wonderful thing. Where there is no consciousness, there is no pain or suffering.

4) How could the Apostle say that, "to die is gain", if dying means nothing more than lying dead in the ground with our bodies until the resurrection?

As above...
Paul, was anointed for rulership in heaven with Jesus, as all the apostles were, but not everyone was destined for heaven as Paul said...
In his opening words to the Corinthians....he said, "to the congregation of God that is in Corinth, to you who have been sanctified in union with Christ Jesus, called to be holy ones, together with all those everywhere who are calling on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours". So there were those who had "the heavenly calling" (Hebrews 3:1) and those who did not.....both had the same "Lord" Jesus.

He also said....."that we the living who survive to the coming of the Lord will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep; 16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first."
When Christ was to return, it was then that those sleeping would rise "first". Notice it says "WILL RISE" not that they have already done so.

5) Finally, how do those who are in Hades, Paradise, and/or under the altar in Heaven, "cry out in a loud voice", if their souls are not conscious in death

In the same way as the blood of Abel cried out to God for justice.....it is symbolic, not literal. (Gen 4:10)

It's because of passages such as these that ALL of our churches and denominations (as I said above) within the pale of Christian orthodoxy (specifically), and within historic Christianity (in general), have taught/continue to teach that the doctrine of the "Sleep of the Soul" during the Intermediate State is heretical.

Jesus and his apostles had forewarned that an apostasy (or falling away from the true faith) would take place after their deaths, "Christian" Orthodoxy is a product of that apostasy.....nothing Christendom believes and teaches is what Jesus taught....that is the real heresy. The real heretics are the ones pointing their fingers at the true disciples, just as they did in the first century. The devil is having exactly the same success with Christendom as he did with Judaism. He has no new tricks because human nature remains the same......they still fall for his lies.

 

[Papa Smurf]

Jesus and his apostles had forewarned that an apostasy (or falling away from the true faith) would take place after their deaths, "Christian" Orthodoxy is a product of that apostasy.....nothing Christendom believes and teaches is what Jesus taught....that is the real heresy. The real heretics are the ones pointing their fingers at the true disciples, just as they did in the first century. The devil is having exactly the same success with Christendom as he did with Judaism. He has no new tricks because human nature remains the same......they still fall for his lies.

Hello Aunty Jane, before I reply to the rest of your post, I wonder if you'd be kind enough to answer a question or two for me about the soul sleep doctrine?

My question is this, "why the passion about a doctrine that does not directly affect anyone's salvation?" (because whether our soul is just as dead as our body is during the Intermediate State, or we/our souls are alive/conscious and in the Lord's presence during that time instead, our eternal destination has already been determined).

I also ask because I've been out here posting in online Christendom for about 25 years now, and while people like me (who hold to the conscious existence of the soul during the Intermediate State) are willing to point out what we believe about it and why (as I did earlier in this thread), call it what we believe that it is and move on, people, such as yourself, who hold the doctrine of the sleep of the soul to be true (and therefore consider what I believe to be heretical), are most often VERY passionate about it (and for some reason feel it necessary to say things like you just did in the paragraph that I quoted above).

If you don't mind explaining it to me, I'd love to understand it, as well the passion from your side about it (BTW, I have no problem with someone being passionate about what they believe, I guess I just don't understand it in the case of doctrines like this one).

Thanks

--Papa Smurf
p.s. - I suppose, considering the belief in a special class of people who alone go to Heaven (144,000 all told) by the JW's, that the soul sleep doctrine becomes a bit more of a thing than it is for the other groups who hold to it (Adventists and Christadelphians).

Thanks again

 

[Aunty Jane]

Hello Aunty Jane, before I reply to the rest of your post, I wonder if you'd be kind enough to answer a question or two for me about the soul sleep doctrine?

My question is this, "why the passion about a doctrine that does not directly affect anyone's salvation?" (because whether our soul is just as dead as our body is during the Intermediate State, or we/our souls are alive/conscious and in the Lord's presence during that time instead, our eternal destination has already been determined).

As you go on to mention, we believe that there are two distinct groups who inherit salvation through Christ's sacrifice. Only one group are chosen by God for a role in the heavenly kingdom. Since both Jesus and the apostle Paul speak of those "sleeping" (in death) it is interesting to me that "immortality of the soul" is nowhere mentioned in the Bible, but is believed in all pagan religious teachings. This came as a complete shock to me as I had never questioned this doctrine. But on further investigation, I realized why it had crept into both later Judaism and also later 'Christianity', when the originals did not teach this concept.
This "sleeping in death" as Paul and Jesus both mentioned, was a very important belief to me, as I was raised believing what you believe.
So why is there such a teaching that is so widespread in the religious world, apart from the Jewish faith and also later Christianity?

Go no further than the garden of Eden.....we see there that Adam was not told about an immortal soul but rather the Hebrew word for "soul" means a living, breathing creature. All living creatures are mortal, but humankind were the exception because they alone were made in God's image and were designed by God to "live forever"......we must understand that "living forever" is not necessarily immortality (which means "having the power of an indestructible life"). An immortal cannot die, but humans were to be granted everlasting life on the condition that they obeyed their Creator.....the only cause of death in the human race originally, was disobedience.

So why did the humans disobey their God's specific command? Because the devil lied to them about death.....he said to the woman..."you surely will not die", when God said that they "surely" would. Who lied? Obviously the devil did not want the humans to believe that they could die, so he invented a way for them to cheat death by making them believe that death isn't really death, but the continuation of life in another form in another realm....Death means that the "soul" (which is the person, not a disembodied spirit separate from the body) will sleep in death, being unaware of anything until the time comes for the promised resurrection to take place. Time will have stood still for them.

When his friend Lazarus died, Jesus purposely remained where he was for several days before journeying to their home to 'awaken' him.
What is interesting is Lazarus' sister's response to Jesus statement..."your brother will rise".....

"When Martha heard that Jesus was coming, she went to meet him; but Mary+ kept sitting at home. 21 Martha then said to Jesus: “Lord, if you had been here, my brother would not have died. 22 Yet even now I know that whatever you ask God for, God will give you.” 23 Jesus said to her: “Your brother will rise.” 24 Martha said to him: “I know he will rise in the resurrection on the last day.”

What was her belief? Was it in an immortal soul that had gone somewhere else in a conscious state? Martha knew what the scriptures said concerning the dead...
"For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all, nor do they have any more reward, because all memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also, their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished, and they no longer have any share in what is done under the sun. . . . .Whatever your hand finds to do, do with all your might, for there is no work nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom in the Grave. [sheol] where you are going." (Eccl 9:5-6, 10)
How is it that "love" can "perish" at death? It is God's cardinal quality.

The Psalmist also wrote....
"The dead do not praise Jah;
Nor do any who go down into the silence of death." (Psalm 115:17)

So in accepting the immortal soul doctrine, one is accepting the devil's first lie.....that we don't really die but go on living.
What was Adam told?...
"In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.” (Gen 3:19)

I also ask because I've been out here posting in online Christendom for about 25 years now, and while people like me (who hold to the conscious existence of the soul during the Intermediate State) are willing to point out what we believe about it and why (as I did earlier in this thread), call it what we believe that it is and move on, people, such as yourself, who hold the doctrine of the sleep of the soul to be true (and therefore consider what I believe to be heretical), are most often VERY passionate about it (and for some reason feel it necessary to say things like you just did in the paragraph that I quoted above).

If you don't mind explaining it to me, I'd love to understand it, as well the passion from your side about it (BTW, I have no problem with someone being passionate about what they believe, I guess I just don't understand it in the case of doctrines like this one).

Thanks

The passion is for the truth of God's word and the fact that the whole world has accepted the devil's lie because they want to believe that we don't really die.....that is not surprising since humankind have no 'program' for death.....it is as foreign to us today as it ever was. If people who die go on to live a blissful life in heaven with Jesus, then why do we grieve? We should be celebrating for them, shouldn't we? Why do we fight death if it takes us somewhere better? It makes no sense.

In my former belief about the soul, it always troubled me that my dead loved ones were up there looking down on us, watching us make our mistakes, seeing us get hurt, maimed, or even killed and not being able to do anything to prevent it. If that was the case, how could heaven be a happy place?
OTOH, there is "hell" where those who had not accepted Christ are burning in pain and anguish forever.....what kind of loving God would do that? What would be accomplished? All of the laws in Israel were designed to compensate victims or to pay the penalty of "a life for a life". Murderers paid for taking someone's life with their own.....never were they tortured, nor was fire ever used as a punishment.
God wants repentance so that he can forgive sinners. (2 Peter 3:9) "Hell" has no way to repent. It is a wicked lie that we go on living...and the devil is laughing at those who have swallowed it, because it is still working for him all these thousands of years later...if there is no immortal soul, there is NO life after death in any form or place, until "the resurrection on the last day"....exactly as Martha said.

The "resurrection" is a restoration of life...NOT a continuation of it. The "last day" is the thousand year reign of Christ when all the dead, both "the righteous and the unrighteous" will come back to be educated, and given opportunity to comply with God's requirements. (John 5:28-29; Acts 24:15) There is then one final test at the end of the thousand years, when the devil is let out of his prison. (Rev 20:1-3)

--Papa Smurf
p.s. - I suppose, considering the belief in a special class of people who alone go to Heaven (144,000 all told) by the JW's, that the soul sleep doctrine becomes a bit more of a thing than it is for the other groups who hold to it (Adventists and Christadelphians).

Since the scriptures clearly identify these 144,000 who are chosen from the earth for a role in the Kingdom as "kings and priests", "bought from among mankind as firstfruits", (Revelation 20:6; Revelation 14:1-5) it begs the question that if there are 'kings', then they will need subjects to rule over....and if they are 'priests' then there have to be sinners for who to perform their priestly duties....there are no sinners in heaven. Only those who are 'born again' at their resurrection to spirit life in heaven are granted immortality because mortals need external life support (oxygen, food, water) whereas spirit beings do not.

I hope that has answered your question.....

 

[rwb]

Wherever you got all that...it wasn't from scripture. The scriptures you quoted are twisted to imply that what you have been taught is true.....when it is the exact opposite.
There is no "heaven or hell" scenario as opposite destinations for the soul....that is not a Bible teaching at all. The soul is not immortal and does not survive the death of the body. (Ezekiel 18:4)

Humans were designed to live forever on a very carefully and lovingly prepared planet Earth.....nowhere does it say that Adam expected to go to 'heaven of hell'. He was told that if he disobeyed God's command, he would die, and that he would return to the dust out of which he was created.

All that you have written is what is taught by Christendom's church system.....unfortunately, there is no truth in any of it.

But the spirit in man does survive the death of our body IF we have the Holy Spirit in us. The spirit returns to God with life after our body dies as "living soul" IF we died in Christ and possess His Spirit in us. All spirits return to God who gave them after our body dies, but only the spirit with the Spirit from Christ continues to have life as a living (spirit) soul.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Ezekiel 18:4 (KJV) Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Every living, breathing creature upon the earth is called a "soul". Being a soul simply signifies having life. Where there is a living soul there is life. That life can be physical or spirit life. Ezekiel is referring to the whole human being with body + spirit = living soul. He speaks truth for the soul (or human being with life) that sins apart from Christ shall die.

 

[rwb]

A soul is a breathing creature, it has to have a body as it is a body.

I would say it slightly different. That which is called a soul, is a soul wherever there is LIFE. It can be physical life or life of our spirit, nonetheless where there is life we are called living souls.

 

[Aunty Jane]

But the spirit in man does survive the death of our body IF we have the Holy Spirit in us. The spirit returns to God with life after our body dies as "living soul" IF we died in Christ and possess His Spirit in us. All spirits return to God who gave them after our body dies, but only the spirit with the Spirit from Christ continues to have life as a living (spirit) soul.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

You are quoting Jewish scripture according to Jewish belief......not the twisted beliefs that crept in from outside of the Bible’s teachings......so, what is the “spirit” that returns to God?
Adam was not “given” a “soul” at his creation but “became” one....literally a “breather”. God gave him “the breath” (spirit) of life”. The ancient Jews had no belief in an immortal soul...that was something they later borrowed from the Greeks. The “spirit” in man was therefore the breath that kept him alive.

The Jews believed in resurrection, so the “spirit returning to God” was his promise to restore life (and breath) to the recreated (resurrected) body, which would be given “the breath of life”, that which brought the body of Adam to life. It is the restoration of the living, breathing human. The soul is the whole person or creature. It is only a soul whilst it breathes......both man and animals die the same death.....they stop breathing. (Eccl 3:19-20)

Ezekiel 18:4 (KJV) Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Every living, breathing creature upon the earth is called a "soul". Being a soul simply signifies having life. Where there is a living soul there is life. That life can be physical or spirit life. Ezekiel is referring to the whole human being with body + spirit = living soul. He speaks truth for the soul (or human being with life) that sins apart from Christ shall die.

You have stated the Jewish concept of death.....the whole human being...body + breath = a living soul. It applies to terrestrial beings but it cannot refer to spirit beings who do not breathe. The Jewish belief was that death meant the end of this life and time in the grave (“Sheol”... Eccl 9:5, 10, swhere there was no conscious existence) until the promised resurrection that was to take place in the future under Messiah’s kingdom.

A “soul” is a creature that breathes and is mortal.....mortals die in the natural scheme of things....but humankind, (alone made in God’s image), had the prospect of never ending life....but it was entirely dependant on their obedience to their Creator. Those in the animal kingdom are designed for death in a natural cycle of life and death and reproduction.....but humans are designed to go on living in their mortal flesh.....the fact that we are mortal means that we CAN die....not that we HAVE to. The tree of life was there in the garden to guarantee unending life, but it was conditional.....obedience was the difference between life and death....if you avoided the TKGE, you would be granted to partake of the tree of life....and live forever, not in heaven, but here on earth. (Gen 3:22-24)

Have we learned anything at all from this original lesson? It is apparent to me that not many have.

 

[Aunty Jane]

I would say it slightly different. That which is called a soul, is a soul wherever there is LIFE. It can be physical life or life of our spirit, nonetheless where there is life we are called living souls.

Our “spirit” has no life of its own....it is the breath in our lungs designed to keep the mortal flesh alive. When the spirit “goes out”, (is extinguished like a candle) all thought processes cease. (Eccl 9:5, 6, 10)

“His spirit goes out, he returns to the ground;
On that very day his thoughts perish.” (Psalm 145:6)

 

[face2face]

Our “spirit” has no life of its own....it is the breath in our lungs designed to keep the mortal flesh alive. When the spirit “goes out”, (is extinguished like a candle) all thought processes cease. (Eccl 9:5, 6, 10)

“His spirit goes out, he returns to the ground;
On that very day his thoughts perish.” (Psalm 145:6)

@rwb this doctrine would be on my top 5 list of "must understand' teachings for salvation. I'm not a JW, but I've come to understand this Biblical teaching on the nature of man and his destination being the grave is the impetus for faith in the resurrection.

Elsewhere in the forum we have discussed how the word Perish 99.6% of the time relates to those who remain in the grave, forever. It's used as the right type of consequence for the rejection of God and His plan for redemption of all those condemned to return to the dust.

It's the only way Jesus can be Lord of both the dead and the living! Romans 14:9

F2F

 

[face2face]

With regard to Elijah, Jesus confirmed that Elijah had come already in a representative way in John the Baptist.
"However, the disciples put the question to him: “Why, then, do the scribes say that E·liʹjah must come first?” 11 In reply he said: “E·liʹjah is indeed coming and will restore all things. 12 However, I say to you that E·liʹjah has already come, and they did not recognize him but did whatever they wanted with him. In this way also, the Son of man is going to suffer at their hands.” 13 Then the disciples perceived that he spoke to them about John the Baptist." (Matt 1:10-13)

Matt 17:11 is where Jesus states clearly the work of Elijah in its fullness, is still yet future!

He (the Master) answered, “Elijah does come, and he will restore all things.

John came in his spirit (intent) but never restored "all" things. You would need to go back to the many OT prophecies to see how this to be fulfilled. Also, looking at Elijah's path and how he never had the opportunity to see Israel restored - having to always deal with Gentiles!

It's all there if you read yourself rich.

F2F

 

[face2face]

The passion is for the truth of God's word and the fact that the whole world has accepted the devil's lie because they want to believe that we don't really die.

Interesting that Paul calls it the Serpent which beguiled Eve and it's recorded as being the shrewdest of all the animals the Lord God had made.

A devil is merely a false accuser - could be you Jane! could well be me! It's important not to misrepresent Scripture by manufacturing a story about a fallen angel which is nowhere taught in the Word of God.

If you had an origin story we would have something to talk about but you dont.

F2F

 

[rwb]

Our “spirit” has no life of its own....it is the breath in our lungs designed to keep the mortal flesh alive. When the spirit “goes out”, (is extinguished like a candle) all thought processes cease. (Eccl 9:5, 6, 10)

“His spirit goes out, he returns to the ground;
On that very day his thoughts perish.” (Psalm 145:6)

If this were true, we should not believe the words of Christ when He said, "whosoever lives and believes in me, shall NEVER die".

Our body having life through the spirit in them is a complete living soul. Our body dies and is sown in the earth a corpse. But the spirit giving life to every man returns to God. The spirit will return to God after our body becomes a corpse stilled alive a spirit/soul OR our spirit will return to God without life. The pathway to being spiritually alive a spirit/soul after our body becomes a corpse is to be filled with the Holy Spirit from Christ before we die. This occurs when we are born again or born from above of His Spirit the moment we first believe in Christ we received eternal spirit life that shall never die. Shall we believe you, or shall we believe Christ?

Solomon writes "the dead know nothing", but what you fail to understand is that those who are bodily die in Christ are NOT among "the dead." Only our body returns to the dust from which it came, but faithful saints at physical death ascend ALIVE to heaven as spirit/soul. We are spiritually alive eternally, and after death are waiting in heaven with the Lord until the Kingdom of God in heaven is complete, then the last trump will sound and our bodies too shall be resurrected immortal, and made alive again through the spirit that shall return with Christ, and the living shall once again be complete living soul with body + spirit to inhabit the new earth forever.

Ecclesiastes 9:5 (KJV) For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Ecclesiastes 9:6 (KJV) Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

Of course Solomon understood when the body of those who die without faith goes into the grave there is no more life for them. They are already condemned because in life they were without faith. After death their next waking moment shall be when they are resurrected to stand before God in judgement and are judged according to what is found written in the books and the book of life. Since their names were not recorded in the book of life from the foundation of the world, they will be cast into the lake of fire that is the second death.

Ecclesiastes 9:10 (KJV) Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

In chapter 12 of Ecclesiastes Solomon tells us to remember the Creator while we can, because the time now in this world is when our eternal fate is determined. We can live our lives without remembering God and go through life in fear, knowing that death awaits us forever, or we can cling to our Creator in faith and understand that when we die our spirit (breath of life) will return to God. If we have no memory of God, then our spirit breath of life shall return to God in darkness and unbelief, knowing nothing but silence and death. But for those who remember their Creator in life, shall be rewarded with eternal, immortal life by grace through faith in the end of these days when Christ shall return.

Ecclesiastes 12:1-7 (KJV) Remember now thy Creator in the days of thy youth, while the evil days come not, nor the years draw nigh, when thou shalt say, I have no pleasure in them; While the sun, or the light, or the moon, or the stars, be not darkened, nor the clouds return after the rain: In the day when the keepers of the house shall tremble, and the strong men shall bow themselves, and the grinders cease because they are few, and those that look out of the windows be darkened, And the doors shall be shut in the streets, when the sound of the grinding is low, and he shall rise up at the voice of the bird, and all the daughters of musick shall be brought low; Also when they shall be afraid of that which is high, and fears shall be in the way, and the almond tree shall flourish, and the grasshopper shall be a burden, and desire shall fail: because man goeth to his long home, and the mourners go about the streets: Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern. Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

 

[ElieG12]

It is inconsistent to quote Paul with the intention of denying what Paul himself says elsewhere.

Did Paul really believe that when the dead in Christ die they would immediately go to live with Christ in heaven?

Ask yourself: did Paul believe that Christians who had died before were already in heaven?

 

[Aunty Jane]

There is so much to address here, so I’ll reply in increments....

If this were true, we should not believe the words of Christ when He said, "whosoever lives and believes in me, shall NEVER die".

Where is this quote taken from? And what does it mean in context.....you can’t pluck words out of a scripture, out of context, to support a belief that you want to hold on to. Sound Bible knowledge means that you never have to do that.

It appears that this is from John 11:21-27....Jesus’ friend Lazarus has died.....his sister Martha went out to meet him....
“21 Martha then said to Jesus: “Lord, if you had been here, my brother would not have died. 22 Yet even now I know that whatever you ask God for, God will give you.” 23 Jesus said to her: “Your brother will rise.” 24 Martha said to him: “I know he will rise in the resurrection on the last day.” 25 Jesus said to her: “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who exercises faith in me, even though he dies, will come to life; 26 and everyone who is living and exercises faith in me will never die at all. Do you believe this?” 27 She said to him: “Yes, Lord, I have believed that you are the Christ, the Son of God, the one coming into the world.”

OK, so what is Jesus actually telling Martha, and what was her belief about where her brother was?

Being followers of Jesus and close friends as well, Lazarus and his sisters held the scriptural Jewish view of death......not in the adopted belief of an immortal soul (which was borrowed from Platonic Greek ideas) and when Jesus posed the question of Lazarus’ prospects for the future, his sister readily replied concerning her belief in the resurrection....something completely different to the general belief of immediate life after death, held even by pagans. The Jewish scriptures did not support any kind of immediate life after death.....the resurrection was something yet future.....when Messiah’s kingdom would rule the earth. It was a restoration of life...not a continuation of it.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Our body having life through the spirit in them is a complete living soul. Our body dies and is sown in the earth a corpse. But the spirit giving life to every man returns to God. The spirit will return to God after our body becomes a corpse stilled alive a spirit/soul OR our spirit will return to God without life. The pathway to being spiritually alive a spirit/soul after our body becomes a corpse is to be filled with the Holy Spirit from Christ before we die. This occurs when we are born again or born from above of His Spirit the moment we first believe in Christ we received eternal spirit life that shall never die. Shall we believe you, or shall we believe Christ?

You can believe Christ but you first need to know what he taught, not what Christendom has adopted from the false belief that ‘heaven or hell’ are the only options for Christians....originally there was no 'heaven or hell' told to Adam and his wife....not even a mention of it. God told them that if they ate the fruit, they would “surely die”....death was a “return to the dust”, not that a separate conscious spirit would depart from the body when breathing stopped. The Jewish scriptures have no such teaching.

Solomon writes "the dead know nothing", but what you fail to understand is that those who are bodily die in Christ are NOT among "the dead."

Those in Sheol (translated “grave” in the Tanakh) are not conscious. Since there is no mention of immediate life after death in Jewish scripture, all who have died spend time in Sheol. It’s the place where we all go, according to Solomon. (Eccl 9:10) No one in sheol is alive. And no dead people are alive because the soul has died. (Ezekiel18:4) Its a mortal soul, not an immortal one. There is no mention of immortal souls in the Bible at all.

Only our body returns to the dust from which it came, but faithful saints at physical death ascend ALIVE to heaven as spirit/soul.

Who are the “saints” then? And at what point in time do these “ascend alive to heaven”?
Paul tells us that even the chosen ones will remain in “sleeping” in their graves until the return of the Christ.
1 Thess 4:13-17....
“13 But we would not have you ignorant, brethren, concerning them that fall asleep; that ye sorrow not, even as the rest, who have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also that are fallen asleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we that are alive, that are left unto the coming of the Lord, shall in no wise precede them that are fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first; 17 then we that are alive, that are left, shall together with them be caught up in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”

What do you see there? See the highlighted verses. Those who are alive when Christ returns, will NOT go to heaven before those who are “sleeping” in death. The resurrection of the “saints” takes place “first” before the general resurrection of the dead happens after Jesus has begun his one thousand year rulership over redeemed mankind on earth.

There are no “souls” in heaven since “souls” are “breathers”, confined to the earth which provides the oxygen needed to keep them living. Spirit beings do not need what terrestrial beings do. The word “spirit” has several meanings in the Bible, as does the word “soul”, but they are not interchangeable. A "soul" in the Bible is never a disembodied spirit.