Outer darkness

[stunnedbygrace]

There is in the light angels of God, and on the darkness perhaps the Angels of Darkness that followed satan back in the day. (However there is still pneuma spirits that bring forth death - darkness still active today I believe - not so much Satan and his Angels but Spirits that are in the darkness.)

Good morning Mathew.
I currently lean towards those spirits/demons/principalities being the spirits of nephilim. It’s the only thing I’ve yet seen make sense since those who left their first estate are in chains. But, He may show me something I haven’t seen yet that will change my thinking on it.

That would make those angels who had relations with women able to have passed eternal existence to their offspring, meaning they were created eternal and brought forth from their kind (eternal) whereas humans are not created eternal but are brought forth from their kind (fallen, non eternal beings) who need to be born again of the Holy Spirit in order to live forever.

It also seems to make sense to me how nephilim could still be on earth after the flood. Or…at least it begins to start to…come together…

Thats where I currently am in understanding.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

The term "outer darkness", it seems to me, is intended to convey an extreme mode of separation from God. At one end of the spectrum, close to God, we have light, beauty, love, and life. At the other extreme end of the spectrum we have darkness, death, ugliness, and despair.

Good morning cady.
So you were born eternal from your mothers womb yet also needing to be born of the Holy Spirit to see eternal life? Those who were born of the two who surely died were born eternal beings? That makes bringing forth of your own kind not make any sort of sense to me. It would be the dead bringing forth the living…

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Oh, we all have writers and teachers we believe and those we don’t believe. It doesn’t matter. Right now we’re just talking.

Well…I think it does matter. But I understand.

 

[MatthewG]

Good morning Mathew.
I currently lean towards those spirits/demons/principalities being the spirits of nephilim. It’s the only thing I’ve yet seen make sense since those who left their first estate are in chains. But, He may show me something I haven’t seen yet that will change my thinking on it.

That would make those angels who had relations with women able to have passed eternal existence to their offspring, meaning they were created eternal and brought forth from their kind (eternal) whereas humans are not created eternal but are brought forth from their kind (fallen, non eternal beings) who need to be born again of the Holy Spirit in order to live forever.

It also seems to make sense to me how nephilim could still be on earth after the flood. Or…at least it begins to start to…come together…

Thats where I currently am in understanding.

Good morning,

Okay. That didn’t really tell me very much though. As I don’t understand really.

I’m not sure that Angels from Heaven could have had sex with women. Some people believe that though.

Thank you for commenting back to me.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

What I learned from that lesson is that there is a spectrum - from darkness to light and the light, fire, spirit, all comes from God.

Not many men I run across can see that there is good and there is better. And that there is bad and there is worse.
a verse in Revelation shows its so. It speaks of those doing harm, those filthy, those righteous and those holy. So I see 4 different ways a man can end up. And it makes sense, since in the natural, there are also 4 directions a man can go (n,s,w,e) and there were four rivers that branched out from Eden.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Good morning,

Okay. That didn’t really tell me very much though. As I don’t understand really.

I’m not sure that Angels from Heaven could have had sex with women. Some people believe that though.

Thank you for commenting back to me.

mmm…I’m not sure it WAS sex…it was SOME kind of relation or interaction though. Some sort of…”dark magic”? for lack of a better term, that created huge hybrid beings. It’s not so outlandish really, when you consider that even mere men have now figured out how to cause virgins to give birth apart from sexual relations…

 

[MatthewG]

mmm…I’m not sure it WAS sex…it was SOME kind of relation or interaction though. Some sort of…”dark magic”? for lack of a better term, that created huge hybrid beings. It’s not so outlandish really, when you consider that even mere men have now figured out how to cause virgins to give birth apart from sexual relations…

It’s hard to talk with our opinions, without the use of scripture, I need to do my own studies and grow more in that way. Sorry friend. Thank you again and hope you have a good day.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

It’s hard to talk with our opinions, without the use of scripture, I need to do my own studies and grow more in that way. Sorry friend. Thank you again and hope you have a good day.

Well, it says (in my translation) “had intercourse.” Some say “had relations” I think. NASB says “bore children to them.” So although I didn’t give the scripture, thinking everyone would know what I was referring to, (although I just now recalled that you’ve said you haven’t read the entire Bible), so the verse I was talking about is Genesis 6:4.

I had the thought to go look up where it talks about Adam having relations with eve and see if it’s the same exact Hebrew wording as in Genesis 6:4, so…I’m going to look at that!

 

[marks]

“The Great Divorce” is one of the writings I mentioned, but I remember that it was Hell, not Purgatory.

It was years ago, but I did read it a few times, as I remember,

Lewis presents it as purgatory, the sun ever about to set, even as in heaven, or rather the heavenly station, the sun is ever about to rise. And that the day will come when the sun sets forever, and it will be hell, while there the sun rises forever in heaven.

I liked his imagery of the man getting off the bus finds the grass to be like nails piercing into his feet. He's told, as you go along, you become more substantial, and it won't hurt. I think that's a good analogy for the renewing of the mind.

The question is not "Why?" but "Why not?" God created outer darkness so that there would be a suitable place for the Lake of Fire (eternal Hell) outside of space.

I've not heard this remarkably simply and straightfoward answer before, it makes good sense to me. Even so, I feel we are short on detail in the Bible to make specific determinations, only our best guesses.

So why do we say hell and outer darkness are the same thing and same place just because people will cry and be in distress at going to both places?

I don't think we do, do we?

I think people have other reasons. You speak of others being fixed on their ideas, aren't you kind of fixed on yours?

Much love!

 

[marks]

And others don’t seem to have an issue with eternal conscious torment at all, as long as it happens to somebody else.

I don't think this is fair.

Personally, I think the Bible teaches eternal conscious torment of the unredeemed. Peter wrote that the one who has suffered has ceased from sin. If man is indeed created with a "durable" soul, how does God cause sin to cease all in all, without violating man's own choosing? Eternal suffering brings eternal cessation of sin.

Have you ever been in that kind of pain, where the only thought is about how much it hurts?

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

The question is not "Why?" but "Why not?" God created outer darkness so that there would be a suitable place for the Lake of Fire (eternal Hell) outside of space. But God also provided a Savior so that none should go there. However, since many love darkness rather than light, they will be sent into outer darkness.

That doesn’t sit with me in a logical manner…mainly because it doesn’t make sense that in the end, hell (and it’s contents presumably?) will be “thrown into” the lake of fire. If they were the same place, how could one of them be cast into the other of them…?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I don't think we do, do we?

Uh…well, yes, a lot of us do. The man Enoch you’ve just spoke with seems to think they are the same place, unless I’ve somehow misunderstood him…and Lambano seemed to be thinking they weren’t two different places.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I don't think this is fair.

Personally, I think the Bible teaches eternal conscious torment of the unredeemed. Peter wrote that the one who has suffered has ceased from sin. If man is indeed created with a "durable" soul, how does God cause sin to cease all in all, without violating man's own choosing? Eternal suffering brings eternal cessation of sin.

Have you ever been in that kind of pain, where the only thought is about how much it hurts?

Much love!

I think this requires more thought…if Adam “surely died” on that day but did not physically die, (and if we at least begin with death meaning death rather than death meaning eternal existence) and if doubly dead has to MEAN something, you seem to me (to my mind) to have no firm concept to even begin thought or conversation with.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I think people have other reasons. You speak of others being fixed on their ideas, aren't you kind of fixed on yours?

I don’t know…show me.

 

[marks]

I think this requires more thought…if Adam “surely died” on that day but did not physically die, (and if we at least begin with death meaning death rather than death meaning eternal existence) and if doubly dead has to MEAN something, you seem to me (to my mind) to have no firm concept to even begin thought or conversation with.

Then why did you reply?

Much love!

 

[MatthewG]

Right @stunnedbygrace,

Genesis 6:4 reads as follows: The Nephilim were in the earth in those days, and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bore children to them; the same were the mighty men that were of old, the men of renown. 5 The Lord saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time. 6 The Lord regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled.

Who were these sons of God that came into the daughter of men? In which they bore children to them; the same were mighty men that were of old, the men of renown.

It had to be a section of people who believed in God but then proceeded to the point of no return, in which God flooded them out, with Noah and his family being suriviors.

I do not think it has to do with "Angels" but "Men".

That is my thoughts on it, people fight, bicker, and fanagle with what they believe anyway, so I just have to stay on my own focus point, to who those "Men" of God could have been.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

And by the way, good morning marks.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Then why did you reply?

Much love!

Because…you responded to my thread…?
lol.

 

[marks]

Uh…well, yes, a lot of us do. The man Enoch you’ve just spoke with seems to think they are the same place, unless I’ve somehow misunderstood him…and Lambano seemed to be thinking they weren’t two different places.

stunnedbygrace said:
So why do we say hell and outer darkness are the same thing and same place just because people will cry and be in distress at going to both places?

"Just because people will cry . . . in both places." Just because? Maybe some one has other reasons to think that? Could be.

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Right @stunnedbygrace,

Genesis 6:4 reads as follows: The Nephilim were in the earth in those days, and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bore children to them; the same were the mighty men that were of old, the men of renown. 5 The Lord saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time. 6 The Lord regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled.

Who were these sons of God that came into the daughter of men? In which they bore children to them; the same were mighty men that were of old, the men of renown.

It had to be a section of people who believed in God but then proceeded to the point of no return, in which God flooded them out, with Noah and his family being suriviors.

I do not think it has to do with "Angels" but "Men".

That is my thoughts on it, people fight, bicker, and fanagle with what they believe anyway, so I just have to stay on my own focus point, to who those "Men" of God could have been.

Okay. I don’t think humans, on their own, produce humans that big and large and tall as nephilim are said to be in the Bible.
I also see the seed of woman bruising the head of the seed of the serpent( it’s a verse in Genesis) as coming into play with David hitting the head of Goliath with a stone to kill him as coming into play.

Good conversation, thanks. I’m always trying to piece it together.

So the serpent has a seed and the woman has a seed, or perhaps it could be said they both have offspring. And Jesus said of some men that their father was satan. So…a lot to think on and search out.