Palestinian position on peace with Israel

[aspen]

-- Anyone who comes down on the wrong end of a UN decision thinks they have overstepped their bounds. That does not automatically make it so.

The question you should then be asking yourself is, did Israel have the right to return to that land that had been legally theirs and illegally taken from them?
If the answer is yes, what better method could have been used than by peaceful means?
Certainly if the people currently on the land are willing to commit genocide to keep Jews away, then there would be no way to negotiate an agreement to placate them.
One should ask why the UN would grant the Israelis land and then not provide protection or assistance when they were attacked.

-- I understand, but 'historical innacuracies' do not trump historical truths when it comes to doing what is right or wrong.

And the historical truth that Palestinians and the surrounding countries have launched multiple wars with the sole purpose of your destruction would more than justify Israel in not being anxious to negotiate with them or take them seriously. Espeically when their stated goal still calls for the complete elimination of the Jewish state.

-- Anyone who comes down on the wrong end of a UN decision thinks they have overstepped their bounds. That does not automatically make it so.
The question you should then be asking yourself is, did Israel have the right to return to that land that had been legally theirs and illegally taken from them?
If the answer is yes, what better method could have been used than by expressed peaceful means?

Certainly if the people currently on the land are willing to commit genocide to keep Jews away, then there would be no way to negotiate an agreement to placate them.
One should ask why the UN would grant the Israelis land and then not provide protection or assistance when they were attacked.

-- The question should be, "Just how flexible should the Jews be expected to be?"

They have encountered three wars where the attacker's expressed purpose was to commit genocide against them.
That same group launched multiple suicide bombings against Israeli civilians and when Israel put up walls to stop them, began launching rockets into civilian centers.
That same group that the world demandsIsrael negotiate with STILL has the expressed goal of the destruction of the Israeli state.
That same group is teaching in schools and on TV programs that Jews are sub-human and deserve death.
Israel has showed their seriousness for peace, even to the point of forcibly removing their own citizens from land to give it to the Palestinians, and they have received nothing in return - except more suicide bombings and rocket attacks.

At just what point do we consider that someone OTHER than Israel needs to show some flexibility.



And I would say that the Israelis weren't so much given a "gift" as given justice:

- The Israelis lived on the land they currently occupy for scores of generations before they were forced off.
- They had established a sovereign nation on that very land twice already in the past and have only lost those nations via aggression.
- Even though the nation of Israel had been wiped off the map twice, a continuous Jewish population/presence has remained uninterrupted on the land.


I have heard people say that wars often decide borders so Israel should accept the fact that they lost the land.
Those are normally the ones who don't want to apply that same axiom to Israel gaining their current land.

I fully admit that my opinions about Israel and the Palestinians are undeveloped. I believe the issue is complicated from a human perspective - we need to rely on God to bring about the correct solution. Have you read The Chosen? Great book - I found myself agreeing with the jewish people who wanted to wait for God to act rather than the Zionists.

 

[Duckybill]

-- It all started thousands of years ago when God gave the land - His land - to the Israelis.

Right on!

 

[Rach1370]

I truly do not know if God will once again bring 'national' Israel back to Him at the close of this age. Romans 11 does seems to speak like that.
But regardless of whether one thinks that Rom 11 talks of all Israel being redeemed at the end, of just a remnant being saved; should we consider just a few simple things in this whole debate?

One being that how many times in history has God brought 'national' Israel back into the land? Whether all of them are working towards a purpose, or just a saved few within them, shouldn't we consider that it was God who brought them back once again? Think of it...seriously, what are the chances of the Jews coming back together and reclaiming their land? I would say slim, unless God opened up that door for them.

The second thing we should consider is the nature of the two sides. Now granted every nation, and religion has those we would term 'innocent'...such as children, those who just want to live in peace with everyone. But let us put those aside for a second. As a general rule the Jews just want a homeland. They want to be left in peace to grow their society once again. They want the right to defend themselves again annihilation. It's not just land at stake here....the Palestinians want the Jews gone from the earth. Such is their hate. Now, on the other side, the Palestinian opposers, especially Hamas and Hezzbolah, they feel they have the right to do anything in their 'holy war' against the Jewish dogs. They will even harm their own 'innocents' in this war. They happily set up their rocket launchers within their own day care facilities, sure that they won't receive fire back on them from such a place. And when Israel does return fire, having no choice but to stop the slaughter of their own innocents, the world cries out at how horrible Israel is, with no word at the Palestinians who made their children collateral damage with no thought or care. That right there should tell us about the nature of those fighting Israel. The Palestinian people are not victims of the Jews reclaiming Israel, they are victim to the monsters within their own people.

What it really comes down to, for the Christian, I think, is this: what does the Bible say? No matter what you think of Romans 11 or what you think Israel's future is, you cannot deny that Israel has played a massive part in our redemptive history. That all the way down through history, no matter how 'national' Israel strayed, God always kept a remnant within the nation, protecting them, guiding them, and using them to bring about great things for us. Since the Bible ended and history continued, the story of Israel hasn't changed much....they turned from God (again) and were driven from their land (again), persecuted horribly (again), and now suddenly, they have been brought back to it (again). There are Christian believers still amongst them, a remnant. I don't think we should revere Israel as some Christians do, but I can't help but see and feel that God is not quite done with them yet...and as such we should watch with interest. As far as supporting them goes, I strongly believe that they have a human right to defend themselves, and have their home back after so many years of atrocities done to them.

 

[Foreigner]

I I found myself agreeing with the jewish people who wanted to wait for God to act rather than the Zionists.

-- Those Jewish people that wanted to wait were definitely in the minority, but as far as wanting to wait "for God to act," how is anyone know He didn't?

Rach makes an excellent point:

"One being that how many times in history has God brought 'national' Israel back into the land? Whether all of them are working towards a purpose, or just a saved few within them, shouldn't we consider that it was God who brought them back once again? Think of it...seriously, what are the chances of the Jews coming back together and reclaiming their land? I would say slim, unless God opened up that door for them."

The Jews reclaiming their land is fulfillment of prophecy.
For that to be wrong, it would mean that God would allow his timetable - in place before the detruction of the Temple in 70 A.D. - to not only be compromised via human will, but that He allowed it.

The second thing we should consider is the nature of the two sides. Now granted every nation, and religion has those we would term 'innocent'...such as children, those who just want to live in peace with everyone. But let us put those aside for a second. As a general rule the Jews just want a homeland. They want to be left in peace to grow their society once again. They want the right to defend themselves again annihilation. It's not just land at stake here....the Palestinians want the Jews gone from the earth. Such is their hate. Now, on the other side, the Palestinian opposers, especially Hamas and Hezzbolah, they feel they have the right to do anything in their 'holy war' against the Jewish dogs. They will even harm their own 'innocents' in this war. They happily set up their rocket launchers within their own day care facilities, sure that they won't receive fire back on them from such a place. And when Israel does return fire, having no choice but to stop the slaughter of their own innocents, the world cries out at how horrible Israel is, with no word at the Palestinians who made their children collateral damage with no thought or care. That right there should tell us about the nature of those fighting Israel. The Palestinian people are not victims of the Jews reclaiming Israel, they are victim to the monsters within their own people.

-- She makes another excellent point, Aspen.
If these people were unwilling to accept UN intervention and their stated goal was the destruction of the Jewish people as a whole, how exactly would the Jews have obtained land and borders by waiting?

How can you negotiate with a people who won't even set aside their belief that Jews the world over need to be eliminated?
How can you negotiate with someone who will launch rockets out of an occupied school, knowing the return fire will likely kill their own children?
How can you negotiate with someone who supports the idea of suicide bombers blowing themselves up in the middle of a civilian marketplace?
How can you negatiate with someone who states flat out that the two-state options will never be acceptable?

These opinions are the same as they were in 1947. I do not see how waiting would have made any difference whatsoever.

 

[aspen]

All good points.

 

[lawrance]

-- It all started thousands of years ago when God gave the land - His land - to the Israelis.

And they lost it ?
Why because ? do you know why ?
I tell you why, it's in the words of Jesus about the Vineyard and a certain mob of murders who killed Gods prophets and then they killed God Son to and because of that they were vomited out and other tenants moved in.
And i don't think their would of been a problem now would their if they obeyed God and accepted Jesus Christ. now would there ?

 

[Duckybill]

No nation will take the land from Israel. God has brought them back to stay.

Amos 9:14-15 (NKJV)
14 I will bring back the captives of My people Israel; They shall build the waste cities and inhabit them; They shall plant vineyards and drink wine from them; They shall also make gardens and eat fruit from them. 15 I will plant them in their land, And no longer shall they be pulled up From the land I have given them," Says the LORD your God.

 

[lawrance]

No nation will take the land from Israel. God has brought them back to stay.

Amos 9:14-15 (NKJV)
14 I will bring back the captives of My people Israel; They shall build the waste cities and inhabit them; They shall plant vineyards and drink wine from them; They shall also make gardens and eat fruit from them. 15 I will plant them in their land, And no longer shall they be pulled up From the land I have given them," Says the LORD your God.

They are only calling them selves a Israel state.

But are they Israel ?

They are only mainly a rag tag bunch of imported backsliding people who can't even conform to the Orthodox foundations.

The true Orthodox Jewish people are not impressed at all with the radical off with the pixies lot that go on with a whole lot of stupid rubbish.

If you talk with true Jewish people you would know that not all say it is Israel.

 

[Foreigner]

They are only calling them selves a Israel state.

But are they Israel ?

They are only mainly a rag tag bunch of imported backsliding people who can't even conform to the Orthodox foundations.

The true Orthodox Jewish people are not impressed at all with the radical off with the pixies lot that go on with a whole lot of stupid rubbish.

If you talk with true Jewish people you would know that not all say it is Israel.

-- Actually , I DO talk to Jewish people today and I have yet to meet a single solitary one, either from the U.S. or from Israel, that has the audacity to say that today's Israel is not Israel.
I am willing to be that you haven't either.

You also seem a little weak on you Old Testament history.

It is replete with examples of the Jews of Israel turning their back on the one true God and becoming a "rag tag' bunch.
They had been accepting/incorporating/practicing a wide variety of religious activities that God Himself frowned upon.
Th O.T. records how some Jewish kings even embraced many of these practices. Some, while not embracing them, allowed their people to continue practicing them.

You will also see a number of things God did to show his displeasure with the people of Israel, including allowing them to be captured and Jerusalem being sacked the first time.

As far as that "ragtage bunch of imported backsliding people" that you sum today's Jews up to be, you simply aren't qualified to stand in judgement over the Jews of today or whether this nation of Israel is the one God intended. At all.

As Rach pointed out, the things these peole had to go through since 1947 and have survived just to be a nation today shows that God's hand appears to be on them.

Have you ever been to Israel? You have the entire spectrum from completely secular to the extremely Orthodox?
Have you never been to the Western Wall and seen the fervor of their prayer?
Seen a Jewish soldier -in uniform no less - wearing the Tephillin?

I saw a clip on CNN where there were people out with towels to collect the blood that was spilled by a suicide bomber in a public square because of their faith requires it.

There is a large portion of those "ragtag bunch of imported backsliding people" who live their Jewish faith every single day in Israel.

You are speaking from the position of ignorance. Nothing less.

 

[aspen]

I am a bit confused on one point - modern Israel is a secular state. God spent a lot of time getting angry about the theocracy of Israel getting lax in their devotion to Him - how much angrier is He now?

 

[Duckybill]

I am a bit confused on one point - modern Israel is a secular state. God spent a lot of time getting angry about the theocracy of Israel getting lax in their devotion to Him - how much angrier is He now?

God didn't restore Israel because of their righteousness. He brought them back to give them a new heart. He's not finished with them.

Ezekiel 11:16-20 (ESV)
16 Therefore say, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD: Though I removed them far off among the nations, and though I scattered them among the countries, yet I have been a sanctuary to them for a while in the countries where they have gone.’ 17 Therefore say, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD: I will gather you from the peoples and assemble you out of the countries where you have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel.’ 18 And when they come there, they will remove from it all its detestable things and all its abominations. 19 And I will give them one heart, and a new spirit I will put within them. I will remove the heart of stone from their flesh and give them a heart of flesh, 20 that they may walk in my statutes and keep my rules and obey them. And they shall be my people, and I will be their God.

 

[Foreigner]

I am a bit confused on one point - modern Israel is a secular state. God spent a lot of time getting angry about the theocracy of Israel getting lax in their devotion to Him - how much angrier is He now?

-- Why don't you ask Him?

 

[lawrance]

-- Actually , I DO talk to Jewish people today and I have yet to meet a single solitary one, either from the U.S. or from Israel, that has the audacity to say that today's Israel is not Israel.

It's only the state of Israel.
=====================

I am willing to be that you haven't either.

I have .
====

You also seem a little weak on you Old Testament history.

It is replete with examples of the Jews of Israel turning their back on the one true God and becoming a "rag tag' bunch.
They had been accepting/incorporating/practicing a wide variety of religious activities that God Himself frowned upon.
Th O.T. records how some Jewish kings even embraced many of these practices. Some, while not embracing them, allowed their people to continue practicing them.

I think you still can't fathom what the word Israel means and the difference between jew.
===================================================================



You will also see a number of things God did to show his displeasure with the people of Israel, including allowing them to be captured and Jerusalem being sacked the first time.

Sacked ! phfff
===========



As far as that "ragtage bunch of imported backsliding people" that you sum today's Jews up to be, you simply aren't qualified to stand in judgement over the Jews of today or whether this nation of Israel is the one God intended. At all.

That's just your opinion.
==================



As Rach pointed out, the things these peole had to go through since 1947 and have survived just to be a nation today shows that God's hand appears to be on them.


Big deal since 1947 ! the whole problem is because they are rejecting the true God all through history and once they comprehend that they will be on the way to being blessed.
=========================================================================================================================



Have you ever been to Israel? You have the entire spectrum from completely secular to the extremely Orthodox?

Like der ?
=======

Have you never been to the Western Wall and seen the fervor of their prayer?

Big deal !
=======


Seen a Jewish soldier -in uniform no less - wearing the Tephillin?

I saw a clip on CNN where there were people out with towels to collect the blood that was spilled by a suicide bomber in a public square because of their faith requires it.

There is a large portion of those "ragtag bunch of imported backsliding people" who live their Jewish faith every single day in Israel.

True.
====

You are speaking from the position of ignorance. Nothing less.

I may see your ignorance is guided just by idolatry.
======================================

I am sorry to say bro that you like to look at things from a narrow point of view. you could do well to study the OT some what more your self than what some guru tells you.
You could start with the song of Moses. i think he had something to say about his own people.
And i hope that nobody be so naive as to think i am against anyone, but i am only pointing the way that Moses did and Christ did.
But when i see people just running around chasing their tail like a dog it's just becomes a sad joke.

 

[Rach1370]

I am a bit confused on one point - modern Israel is a secular state. God spent a lot of time getting angry about the theocracy of Israel getting lax in their devotion to Him - how much angrier is He now?

Hey Aspen. I've been doing some reading on the whole "Israel" thing...trying to define what I think about it all. Haven't really reached a conclusion yet, but here's what I've found...it's helped at least clarify some things at least.

Whether we believe that Romans 11 is talking about an end times gathering of all national Israel or not...it still implies something. Consider:
Not all "Israel" have been saved down through history. From Abraham, Israel was considered God's chosen people, but we see that even within that national group, that only a few were truly elect. Isaac and not Ishmael. Jacob and not Esau...even though they still had the right bloodline. So the thought is that right up until Jesus, there was this saved remnant within the people of God. And of course after Jesus, the same is true. Every generation there are this saved few within the Jewish nation...Christians. The question becomes then; does God still guide national Israel to protect and steer those few within them who are His children? Will those few ultimately turn into the whole nation at the end of this age? There are various schools of thought, but I think we will not know until it comes to pass. But it does make me look at the fact that Israel is now back in their land with some speculation.

As far as support for them goes, as I said before...it specifically comes down to the nature of the two opposing sides. The ruling body of every nation is mandated to protect it's citizen's. The Palestinians government is not doing this, they wage a war on Israel that puts their most vulnerable at risk. They care only for killing Jews and getting 'their land' back.
Also, consider this: even if national Israel is no longer 'God's chosen' people, and therefore have no spiritual right to the land...do we really believe it gives the Islamic people a better right to it?

 

[Foreigner]

You make me laugh Mr. Rosenberger.

Anyone who feels qualified to calls the Jews living in Israel, "ragtage bunch of imported backsliding people" ...and then says to a person who disagrees with them, "that's just your opinion".....

...has shown they really have no grasp of the concept of common sense.

But keep trying. Eventually you may be ready to sit at the grown-up table.

 

[lawrance]

You make me laugh Mr. Rosenberger.

Anyone who feels qualified to calls the Jews living in Israel, "ragtage bunch of imported backsliding people" ...and then says to a person who disagrees with them, "that's just your opinion".....

...has shown they really have no grasp of the concept of common sense.

But keep trying. Eventually you may be ready to sit at the grown-up table.

I just feel sorry for, as Rag tag is not united, all over the shop, not as one.

Backsliding people are they who rejected Jesus Christ, how poor to wish that on anyone, just as anyone is poor who rejects Christ.

Do you know that the people of God (TRUE ISRAEL) were the ones who went forward, and came into Christ and are his Church. stop attacking Jesus Christ as he is the alpha and the omega.

The rag tags were left behind lost! and still are as no one comes to the father but through Christ.

Now come back come up to the table dear boy and prove that Jesus Christ is not the Alpha and the Omega.

I am sorry to say dear boy it's all over the shop and what i see with your points of view, are you implying that the Jews don't need a saviour and that it's just fine for them to live under the old Law. and why run about idolising a race. God is God! it's not a race people bro.

Why are you so offended the Christians should not follow any law at all, and happy to see Jews under the law. as i see that as it must be a work of Satan, fooling everyone.

 

[aspen]

That was a heaping helping of 'word salad'........I've reached my goal of 'striving for five' just by reading that post......mercy!

 

[Foreigner]

I just feel sorry for, as Rag tag is not united, all over the shop, not as one.

Backsliding people are they who rejected Jesus Christ, how poor to wish that on anyone, just as anyone is poor who rejects Christ.

Do you know that the people of God (TRUE ISRAEL) were the ones who went forward, and came into Christ and are his Church. stop attacking Jesus Christ as he is the alpha and the omega.

The rag tags were left behind lost! and still are as no one comes to the father but through Christ.

Now come back come up to the table dear boy and prove that Jesus Christ is not the Alpha and the Omega.

I am sorry to say dear boy it's all over the shop and what i see with your points of view, are you implying that the Jews don't need a saviour and that it's just fine for them to live under the old Law. and why run about idolising a race. God is God! it's not a race people bro.

Why are you so offended the Christians should not follow any law at all, and happy to see Jews under the law. as i see that as it must be a work of Satan, fooling everyone.

-- Can anyone please translate this for me?

 

[lawrance]

Hey Aspen. I've been doing some reading on the whole "Israel" thing...trying to define what I think about it all. Haven't really reached a conclusion yet, but here's what I've found...it's helped at least clarify some things at least.

Whether we believe that Romans 11 is talking about an end times gathering of all national Israel or not...it still implies something. Consider:
Not all "Israel" have been saved down through history. From Abraham, Israel was considered God's chosen people, but we see that even within that national group, that only a few were truly elect. Isaac and not Ishmael. Jacob and not Esau...even though they still had the right bloodline. So the thought is that right up until Jesus, there was this saved remnant within the people of God. And of course after Jesus, the same is true. Every generation there are this saved few within the Jewish nation...Christians. The question becomes then; does God still guide national Israel to protect and steer those few within them who are His children? Will those few ultimately turn into the whole nation at the end of this age? There are various schools of thought, but I think we will not know until it comes to pass. But it does make me look at the fact that Israel is now back in their land with some speculation.

As far as support for them goes, as I said before...it specifically comes down to the nature of the two opposing sides. The ruling body of every nation is mandated to protect it's citizen's. The Palestinians government is not doing this, they wage a war on Israel that puts their most vulnerable at risk. They care only for killing Jews and getting 'their land' back.
Also, consider this: even if national Israel is no longer 'God's chosen' people, and therefore have no spiritual right to the land...do we really believe it gives the Islamic people a better right to it?

If God gave it to them the 'Islamic people' it must be so because who other could it of been for 2000 years ?
I don't think that Jews have any real right to push people living on the land out at all.
But i think true Israel that is true Christian people would not push anyone out, but they would help bring about love and understanding between all people to the glory of God.
Jesus said that what you do to others you do to him.
Violence is not the way and never was, as it is always the work of the Devil.
Only Jesus Christ is the way and in him only we can have the faith to move mountains.

 

[Foreigner]

If God gave it to them the 'Islamic people' it must be so because who other could it of been for 2000 years ?
I don't think that Jews have any real right to push people living on the land out at all.
But i think true Israel that is true Christian people would not push anyone out, but they would help bring about love and understanding between all people to the glory of God.
Jesus said that what you do to others you do to him.
Violence is not the way and never was, as it is always the work of the Devil.
Only Jesus Christ is the way and in him only we can have the faith to move mountains.

-- Sorry, Rosey, but you are mistaken.

The violence you are bemoaning was initiated by the Palestinians and the surrounding Arab States. NOT the Israelis.

The UN granted the Jews the land - no bloodshed or violence
The UN countries around the world recognized Israel as a nation - no bloodshed or violence

It was the Palestinians, the Syrians, the Jordanians, the Lebanese and the Egyptians that started firing bullets and dropping bombs with the declared goal of killing every single Israeli man, woman, and child.

That was also the case for the following wars.

It is also the Palestinians who are firing rockets into civilian centers and sending suicide bombers into market squares with the goal of killing innocent civilians.

Sorry to interject facts here, but one of us had to.