Palestinian position on peace with Israel

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Foreigner

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Six in 10 Palestinians reject 2-state solution, survey finds
By GIL HOFFMAN
07/15/2011 04:26


73% of 1,010 Palestinians in W. Bank, Gaza agree with 'hadith' quoted in Hamas Charter about the need to kill Jews hiding behind stones, trees.
Only one in three Palestinians (34 percent) accepts two states for two peoples as the solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, according to an intensive, face-to-face survey in Arabic of 1,010 Palestinian adults in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip completed this week by American pollster Stanley Greenberg.

The poll, which has a margin of error of 3.1 percentage points, was conducted in partnership with the Beit Sahour-based Palestinian Center for Public Opinion and sponsored by the Israel Project, an international nonprofit organization that provides journalists and leaders with information about the Middle East.

The Israel Project is trying to reach out to the Arab world to promote “people-to-people peace.” The poll appears to indicate that the organization has a difficult task ahead.

Respondents were asked about US President Barack Obama’s statement that “there should be two states: Palestine as the homeland for the Palestinian people and Israel as the homeland for the Jewish people.”

Just 34% said they accepted that concept, while 61% rejected it.

Sixty-six percent said the Palestinians’ real goal should be to start with a two-state solution but then move to it all being one Palestinian state.

Asked about the fate of Jerusalem, 92% said it should be the capital of Palestine, 1% said the capital of Israel, 3% the capital of both, and 4% a neutral international city.

Seventy-two percent backed denying the thousands of years of Jewish history in Jerusalem, 62% supported kidnapping IDF soldiers and holding them hostage, and 53% were in favor or teaching songs about hating Jews in Palestinian schools.

When given a quote from the Hamas Charter about the need for battalions from the Arab and Islamic world to defeat the Jews, 80% agreed. Seventy-three percent agreed with a quote from the charter (and a hadith, or tradition ascribed to the prophet Muhammad) about the need to kill Jews hiding behind stones and trees.

But only 45% said they believed in the charter’s statement that the only solution to the Palestinian problem was jihad.

The survey’s more positive findings included that only 22% supported firing rockets at Israeli cities and citizens and that two-thirds preferred diplomatic engagement over violent “resistance.”

Among Palestinians in general 65% preferred talks and 20% violence. In the West Bank it was 69-28%, and in Gaza, 59- 32%.

Asked whether they backed seeking a Palestinian state unilaterally in the UN, 64% said yes. The number was 57% in the West Bank and 79% in Gaza. Thirty-seven percent said the UN action would bring a Palestinian state closer, 16% said it would set back the establishment of a state, and 44% said it would make no difference.

When asked what Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas’s top priorities should be, 83% said creating jobs. Just 4% said getting the UN to recognize a Palestinian state, and only 2% said peace talks with Israel.

Israel Project president Jennifer Laszlo Mizrahi said she was encouraged that the Arab Spring would bring more accuracy to Arab media and by the 59% of Palestinians who are on Facebook. The Israel Project has 80,723 friends for its Arabic site, which has had 9.5 million page views in two months.

“Some of the numbers in the poll are discouraging, but we are trying to change them,” she said at a Jerusalem press conference in which Greenberg presented the findings.

Greenberg said the survey proved that there was a big need for public education and leadership on the Palestinian side.

Greenberg and Laszlo Mizrahi have presented the findings to President Shimon Peres, opposition leader Tzipi Livni, Vice Premier Moshe Ya’alon and Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu’s senior adviser, Ron Dermer.

Next week, they have meetings scheduled in the White House and the Pentagon.

Israeli leaders told Greenberg and Laszlo Mizrahi they were encouraged by Palestinian support for talks.
 

aspen

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Yep. People who feel they have been run off their land and currently live in poverty, with crappy education and job opportunities, often have difficulty compromising.
 

Foreigner

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They must also be kicking themselves.

Just think of the huge amount of land they would have today if their parents hadn't rejected the UN and not tried to slaughter every Jewish man, woman and child.
- They would have their own nation right now.
- Jerusalem would either still be an international city or perhaps even their capital.
- Thousand of their citizens would not be dead from repeated attempts to kill innocent Israelis (you know, the ones that actually accepted the UN actions and offered to live in peace).
- They would not have thousands of their relatives currently imprisoned in camps in Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon, denied the right to live among their Arab brothers by their Arab brothers.

I guess if I were them, my self-inflicted troubles would make me angry, as well.
 

aspen

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They must also be kicking themselves.

Just think of the huge amount of land they would have today if their parents hadn't rejected the UN and not tried to slaughter every Jewish man, woman and child.
- They would have their own nation right now.
- Jerusalem would either still be an international city or perhaps even their capital.
- Thousand of their citizens would not be dead from repeated attempts to kill innocent Israelis (you know, the ones that actually accepted the UN actions and offered to live in peace).
- They would not have thousands of their relatives currently imprisoned in camps in Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon, denied the right to live among their Arab brothers by their Arab brothers.

I guess if I were them, my self-inflicted troubles would make me angry, as well.

Well, I would certainly fight if the Mormons, who believe America is the promise land, decided to claim land according to their beliefs and either kicked me off my property or installed a government that operated my new state like a prison.

I certainly would not look back on my decision to fight as a poor one, based on the amount of land I may have been given. Look at how many treaties our own country has broken with the Native Americans.
I would view all land taken as stolen.


 

Foreigner

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Well, I would certainly fight if the Mormons, who believe America is the promise land, decided to claim land according to their beliefs and either kicked me off my property or installed a government that operated my new state like a prison.

-- If those Mormons had lived on the land for generations, less than 2000 years before, with historical documentation and historic sites to prove it, had been forcibly removed (although a number of Mormons had remained as a constant minority) and had been granted a mere fraction of the land that they had owned before to return to by U.N., I too would currently be in support of those Mormons.




I certainly would not look back on my decision to fight as a poor one, based on the amount of land I may have been given.

-- You would not "look back on your decision as a poor one?"
Even though:
- You would have control over a much larger area of land than you do today
- You would almost certainly have statehood and a seat in the United Nations
- At worst Jerusalem would be an open city, and at best at least half of it would be your capital.
- Thousands of Palestinians would be alive today that are not.
- Thousands of Palestinians would not currently be trapped in refugee camps in Syria, Jordan, and Lebanon, imprisoned by their own Arab brothers.
- Palestinian children would almost certainly have a longer life expectancy, a greater standard of living, a better chance at a good education, etc.




Look at how many treaties our own country has broken with the Native Americans.
I would view all land taken as stolen.

-- Agreed. What the United States did to the Native Americans was reprehensible. There is absolutely no way to justify it or explain it away.
They entered several treaties with the Native Americans, knowing as they negotiated those treaties that they had no intention of keeping them.

I hate to break it to you, though, but that has absolutely nothing to do with the subject at hand.

There was a long history of Americans breaking treaties with Indians, even before America was American
-BUT-
There was no history AT ALL of Israel breaking treaties with anyone, let alone the Palestinians.

That is where your comparison crumbles.

First off, it was the UN and not Israel that gave control of that land to the Israelis.
Second, it was mutltiple nations around the world as well as the UN itself that recognized Israel's right to exist as a nation and officially recognized it as such.
These same countries, as well as the UN itself would have likely done the same for the Palestinians if they had pursued that route.

Your implication is that the Palestinians should not have believed Israel's overtones of peace. Why?
Why could your "Native American" claim not also be applied to the Palestinians as well as the Israelis?

Israel didn't grant land to the Israelis or create boundaries. The UN did.
Why weren't the Palestinian and Arab World's frustrations directed at the UN?
Instead they launched a war with the expressed intention of slaughtering all Jews.

How can that possibly be defended?


These are very reasoned, non-confrontational statements I have made.
If you feel the need to reply, please do so in kind.
 

avoice

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Yep. People who feel they have been run off their land and currently live in poverty, with crappy education and job opportunities, often have difficulty compromising.

Where does God ever say the any inheritence went to Ishmael (father of the Arabs) ?
and you could use a history lesson ..
It was Jordan that had the west bank not Palistians
they dont have a state because of their choices alone in the past
and no Palistian today ever lived in Israel
some of their dead grandparents did and it was their choice not to have a state..... 2 min of history might teach you something.
,,, http://www.youtube.c...nel_video_title
 

lawrance

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They must also be kicking themselves.

Just think of the huge amount of land they would have today if their parents hadn't rejected the UN and not tried to slaughter every Jewish man, woman and child.
- They would have their own nation right now.
- Jerusalem would either still be an international city or perhaps even their capital.
- Thousand of their citizens would not be dead from repeated attempts to kill innocent Israelis (you know, the ones that actually accepted the UN actions and offered to live in peace).
- They would not have thousands of their relatives currently imprisoned in camps in Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon, denied the right to live among their Arab brothers by their Arab brothers.

I guess if I were them, my self-inflicted troubles would make me angry, as well.


Maybe Jews should all be thankful to Hitler because with out his help their may not of been any Jewish state now.
Hitler was a Jew and most of his hierarchy was to, i have heard some have said.

Dear Foreigner old chap. With Germany and Hitlers points of view with the German land rights and views on race you must be in total agreement with him, is that so old bean ?
 

aspen

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Where does God ever say the any inheritence went to Ishmael (father of the Arabs) ?
and you could use a history lesson ..
It was Jordan that had the west bank not Palistians
they dont have a state because of their choices alone in the past
and no Palistian today ever lived in Israel
some of their dead grandparents did and it was their choice not to have a state..... 2 min of history might teach you something.
,,, http://www.youtube.c...nel_video_title

You've been successful in providing the Jewish/Conservative Christian perspective - it really doesn't address my point. I simply stated 'what is' in regard to the Palestinian mindset - not 'what should be' according to the Israeli government.

Palestinians feel cheated and have raised their children to adopt this mindset. Right or wrong, they have a different understanding of history.

I took a class on the sociology of the Middle East at my Christian university, taught by a Palestinian Christian. He had a unique perspective. So before you accuse me of not understanding history, perhaps you should make sure.

Here is an accurate youtube presentation of the Palestinian mindset in regards to Israel.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3bxj1uvDXU
 

Foreigner

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Maybe Jews should all be thankful to Hitler because with out his help their may not of been any Jewish state now.
Hitler was a Jew and most of his hierarchy was to, i have heard some have said.

Dear Foreigner old chap. With Germany and Hitlers points of view with the German land rights and views on race you must be in total agreement with him, is that so old bean ?


-- Mr R, you have a great day. Hopefully, the nurses will let you outside this afternoon.
 

THE Gypsy

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Speaking of that "Two State Solution"...


Arab League discusses Palestinian statehood

Representatives of the Arab League have met in Qatar to discuss the Palestinian Authority's application to the United Nations for official recognition as a Palestinian state.

Wednesday's meeting in Doha, the Qatari capital, came before the UN General Assembly meeting in September.

Saeb Erekat, the Palestinian negotiator, said the application was a positive development for the peace process.

...Independent state

At the next UN General Assembly meeting in September, Palestinian leaders plan to put forward a proposal for the UN to recognise an independent Palestinian state.

The United States has said that it will veto any such proposal, and has pushed for another round of talks between Israel and the Palestinians instead.

The Palestinian leadership, however, has urged the US to reconsider that position.

The Palestinian leadership, however, has urged the US to reconsider that position.

"Veto on what, veto on the two-state solution? We're not out there to isolate anyone or to legitimise anyone," said Erekat.

"We're there to delegitimise the Israeli settlement activities and the Israeli occupation, and to legitimise the birth and the restoration of the state of Palestine on the geographic map."

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/mi...614328796.html
 

Foreigner

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Palestinians feel cheated and have raised their children to adopt this mindset. Right or wrong, they have a different understanding of history.

-- But your post seems to imply not just that you understand where they are coming from, but that you actually agree with them.
Your previous statement on Palestinians choosing to try to wipe out Israelis, "I certainly would not look back on my decision to fight as a poor one..." confirms that.



I took a class on the sociology of the Middle East at my Christian university, taught by a Palestinian Christian. He had a unique perspective. So before you accuse me of not understanding history, perhaps you should make sure.


-- That Mormon analogy you let fly earlier to try to justify the Palestinian's feelings and actions shows - at least for you - a definite lack of historic knowledge.

And please don't say, "That's not how I feel. That's how they feel." Your own words say differently:


"Well, I would certainly fight if the Mormons, who believe America is the promise land, decided to claim land according to their beliefs and either kicked me off my property or installed a government that operated my new state like a prison." - Aspen

-- That implies that you feel the Israeli presence in the area is akin to the Mormons claiming land, deciding it is their land based on zilch, and kicking people off.

You also tried to tie the American government's treatment of the Native Americans to Israel and their presence in that area, as well. Same baseless implication on your part.

Talk about a "lack of understanding regarding history."

As I pointed previously showing how wrong you are:

- The Israelis lived on the land they currently occupy for scores of generations.
- They had established a sovereign nation on that very land twice already in the past. Historic fact.
- They were forced out of their country and off their land.
- Still, a CONSTANT Jewish presence had remained in that area down through history. As a history "officianado" you of course already know this.
- It was the United Nations, not Israel that partitioned the land and granted both Israelis and Palestinians those territories.
- It was the United Nations as a whole (as well as multiple individual countries) that recognized Israel's right to exist in their previous homeland.
- It was the United Nations as a whole (as well as multiple individual countries) that recognized Israel as a sovereign nation.

You implication is that Israel did all this unilaterally and their process somehow matches the practices of the Mormons or the U.S. treatment of the Native Americans.

The only 'unilateral' action taken was when the Palestinians, Jordanians, Egyptians, and Syrians went to war, not simply to "regain Palestinian land" but to, by their own delcaration, drive all Jews into the sea and kill every single Jewish man woman and child.




.
 

Foreigner

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Speaking of that "Two State Solution"...


Arab League discusses Palestinian statehood


"We're there to delegitimise the Israeli settlement activities and the Israeli occupation, and to legitimise the birth and the restoration of the state of Palestine on the geographic map."


-- The problem is - throughout history - there has NEVER been a state of Palestine. Therefore, there is none to restore.

There has been an area called "Palestine" but that is like "The Badlands" in North Dakota or the area marked "Neutral Zone" along the Iraq/Saudi border (which I have stood in).
People may live there, but that doesn't make it a country.

However, history shows that this is currently the THIRD state of Israel existing in this territory of the world.

Interesting article, Gyspy. Thanks.
 

aspen

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-- But your post seems to imply not just that you understand where they are coming from, but that you actually agree with them.
Your previous statement on Palestinians choosing to try to wipe out Israelis, "I certainly would not look back on my decision to fight as a poor one..." confirms that.






-- That Mormon analogy you let fly earlier to try to justify the Palestinian's feelings and actions shows - at least for you - a definite lack of historic knowledge.

And please don't say, "That's not how I feel. That's how they feel." Your own words say differently:


"Well, I would certainly fight if the Mormons, who believe America is the promise land, decided to claim land according to their beliefs and either kicked me off my property or installed a government that operated my new state like a prison." - Aspen

-- That implies that you feel the Israeli presence in the area is akin to the Mormons claiming land, deciding it is their land based on zilch, and kicking people off.

You also tried to tie the American government's treatment of the Native Americans to Israel and their presence in that area, as well. Same baseless implication on your part.

Talk about a "lack of understanding regarding history."

As I pointed previously showing how wrong you are:

- The Israelis lived on the land they currently occupy for scores of generations.
- They had established a sovereign nation on that very land twice already in the past. Historic fact.
- They were forced out of their country and off their land.
- Still, a CONSTANT Jewish presence had remained in that area down through history. As a history "officianado" you of course already know this.
- It was the United Nations, not Israel that partitioned the land and granted both Israelis and Palestinians those territories.
- It was the United Nations as a whole (as well as multiple individual countries) that recognized Israel's right to exist in their previous homeland.
- It was the United Nations as a whole (as well as multiple individual countries) that recognized Israel as a sovereign nation.

You implication is that Israel did all this unilaterally and their process somehow matches the practices of the Mormons or the U.S. treatment of the Native Americans.

The only 'unilateral' action taken was when the Palestinians, Jordanians, Egyptians, and Syrians went to war, not simply to "regain Palestinian land" but to, by their own delcaration, drive all Jews into the sea and kill every single Jewish man woman and child.

No. I do not agree with them. I do understand their feelings. It is called perspective taking - really important for developing empathy, love and forgiveness. There are two points that I need to make:

1. If I was a Palestinian, I would probably be blinded to the historical inaccuracies involved in their narrative and I would be angry that European Jews (people who simply call themselves Jews) had the support of the world community to control the land I called home.

2. I believe the UN overstepped it's bounds in enforcing the British idea of a Jewish state - that does not mean that I disapprove of the state of Israel - it means that the process has left a bad taste in my mouth.

3. I believe that the Israeli government needs to realize that they were given a great gift by the world and they should be willing to be more flexible.
 

lawrance

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-- But your post seems to imply not just that you understand where they are coming from, but that you actually agree with them.
Your previous statement on Palestinians choosing to try to wipe out Israelis, "I certainly would not look back on my decision to fight as a poor one..." confirms that.






-- That Mormon analogy you let fly earlier to try to justify the Palestinian's feelings and actions shows - at least for you - a definite lack of historic knowledge.

And please don't say, "That's not how I feel. That's how they feel." Your own words say differently:


"Well, I would certainly fight if the Mormons, who believe America is the promise land, decided to claim land according to their beliefs and either kicked me off my property or installed a government that operated my new state like a prison." - Aspen

-- That implies that you feel the Israeli presence in the area is akin to the Mormons claiming land, deciding it is their land based on zilch, and kicking people off.

You also tried to tie the American government's treatment of the Native Americans to Israel and their presence in that area, as well. Same baseless implication on your part.

Talk about a "lack of understanding regarding history."

As I pointed previously showing how wrong you are:

- The Israelis lived on the land they currently occupy for scores of generations.
- They had established a sovereign nation on that very land twice already in the past. Historic fact




- They were forced out of their country and off their land.

=============================================================
AND WHY WAS THAT ! show us what the Bible said as to why ?
=============================================================





- Still, a CONSTANT Jewish presence had remained in that area down through history. As a history "officianado" you of course already know this.
- It was the United Nations, not Israel that partitioned the land and granted both Israelis and Palestinians those territories.
- It was the United Nations as a whole (as well as multiple individual countries) that recognized Israel's right to exist in their previous homeland.
- It was the United Nations as a whole (as well as multiple individual countries) that recognized Israel as a sovereign nation.

===========================================================================================
IT LOOKS LIKE UNITED NATIONS YOUR NUMBER ONE AND WHERE DOES THE USA FIT IN FOR YOU, NUMBER 3 ?
============================================================================================


You implication is that Israel did all this unilaterally and their process somehow matches the practices of the Mormons or the U.S. treatment of the Native Americans.




The only 'unilateral' action taken was when the Palestinians, Jordanians, Egyptians, and Syrians went to war, not simply to "regain Palestinian land" but to, by their own delcaration, drive all Jews into the sea and kill every single Jewish man woman and child.
=====================================================
AND WHY WAS IT THAT ALL THEM PEOPLE WANT TO DO THAT ?
======================================================

.

Why is it that some can't let people live in peace dude and start all this nonsense about who owns the land.

Did you know we all are only the tenants of any land as all the land is Gods land and if we treat all people the way Christ taught their would not be any problems, now would there.
 

THE Gypsy

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Why is it that some can't let people live in peace dude and start all this nonsense about who owns the land.

Did you know we all are only the tenants of any land as all the land is Gods land and if we treat all people the way Christ taught their would not be any problems, now would there.


This might have a little to do with it...


Three Gaza missiles hit Israel, as southern war heats up
http://www.israeltoday.co.il/NewsIte...5/Default.aspx


Israeli school bus hit by Gaza missile; 2 hurt
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/...20051727.shtml


Israeli Teen Hit by Anti-tank Missile Dies
http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/insideisr...-Missile-Dies/

Israel hit by 200 missiles this month
http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtri...140972222.html


Three Gaza missiles hit Israel, as southern war heats up
http://www.methodistfriendsofisrael....-war-heats-up/
 

Foreigner

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No. I do not agree with them. I do understand their feelings. It is called perspective taking - really important for developing empathy, love and forgiveness.

-- Anyone who comes down on the wrong end of a UN decision thinks they have overstepped their bounds. That does not automatically make it so.

The question you should then be asking yourself is, did Israel have the right to return to that land that had been legally theirs and illegally taken from them?
If the answer is yes, what better method could have been used than by peaceful means?
Certainly if the people currently on the land are willing to commit genocide to keep Jews away, then there would be no way to negotiate an agreement to placate them.
One should ask why the UN would grant the Israelis land and then not provide protection or assistance when they were attacked.




There are two points that I need to make:
1. If I was a Palestinian, I would probably be blinded to the historical inaccuracies involved in their narrative and I would be angry that European Jews (people who simply call themselves Jews) had the support of the world community to control the land I called home.

-- I understand, but 'historical innacuracies' do not trump historical truths when it comes to doing what is right or wrong.

And the historical truth that Palestinians and the surrounding countries have launched multiple wars with the sole purpose of your destruction would more than justify Israel in not being anxious to negotiate with them or take them seriously. Espeically when their stated goal still calls for the complete elimination of the Jewish state.




2. I believe the UN overstepped it's bounds in enforcing the British idea of a Jewish state - that does not mean that I disapprove of the state of Israel - it means that the process has left a bad taste in my mouth.

-- Anyone who comes down on the wrong end of a UN decision thinks they have overstepped their bounds. That does not automatically make it so.
The question you should then be asking yourself is, did Israel have the right to return to that land that had been legally theirs and illegally taken from them?
If the answer is yes, what better method could have been used than by expressed peaceful means?

Certainly if the people currently on the land are willing to commit genocide to keep Jews away, then there would be no way to negotiate an agreement to placate them.
One should ask why the UN would grant the Israelis land and then not provide protection or assistance when they were attacked.




3. I believe that the Israeli government needs to realize that they were given a great gift by the world and they should be willing to be more flexible.


-- The question should be, "Just how flexible should the Jews be expected to be?"

They have encountered three wars where the attacker's expressed purpose was to commit genocide against them.
That same group launched multiple suicide bombings against Israeli civilians and when Israel put up walls to stop them, began launching rockets into civilian centers.
That same group that the world demandsIsrael negotiate with STILL has the expressed goal of the destruction of the Israeli state.
That same group is teaching in schools and on TV programs that Jews are sub-human and deserve death.
Israel has showed their seriousness for peace, even to the point of forcibly removing their own citizens from land to give it to the Palestinians, and they have received nothing in return - except more suicide bombings and rocket attacks.

At just what point do we consider that someone OTHER than Israel needs to show some flexibility.



And I would say that the Israelis weren't so much given a "gift" as given justice:

- The Israelis lived on the land they currently occupy for scores of generations before they were forced off.
- They had established a sovereign nation on that very land twice already in the past and have only lost those nations via aggression.
- Even though the nation of Israel had been wiped off the map twice, a continuous Jewish population/presence has remained uninterrupted on the land.


I have heard people say that wars often decide borders so Israel should accept the fact that they lost the land.
Those are normally the ones who don't want to apply that same axiom to Israel gaining their current land.



.
 

Duckybill

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The matter of the land will soon be resolved completely.

Zech 14 ESV
2 For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city shall be taken and the houses plundered and the women raped. Half of the city shall go out into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 3 Then the Lord will go out and fight against those nations as when he fights on a day of battle. 4 On that day his feet shall stand on the Mount of Olives that lies before Jerusalem on the east, and the Mount of Olives shall be split in two from east to west by a very wide valley, so that one half of the Mount shall move northward, and the other half southward.

Tis the season.
 

lawrance

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This might have a little to do with it...


Three Gaza missiles hit Israel, as southern war heats up
http://www.israeltoday.co.il/NewsIte...5/Default.aspx


Israeli school bus hit by Gaza missile; 2 hurt
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/...20051727.shtml


Israeli Teen Hit by Anti-tank Missile Dies
http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/insideisr...-Missile-Dies/

Israel hit by 200 missiles this month
http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtri...140972222.html


Three Gaza missiles hit Israel, as southern war heats up
http://www.methodistfriendsofisrael....-war-heats-up/


That is not what i am on about as i am on about the start of it all, as to why.
They all could of lived peacefully.
As sin creates sin and she just grows.
 

Foreigner

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That is not what i am on about as i am on about the start of it all, as to why.
They all could of lived peacefully.
As sin creates sin and she just grows.

-- It all started thousands of years ago when God gave the land - His land - to the Israelis.