Parable Of The Wicked Husbandmen

[brakelite]

Regarding that expression "cast Him out of the vineyard"...it is no coincidence that Jesus was crucified outside Jerusalem.

 

[Hidden In Him]

It's God's vineyard remember. People act as if Israel is from men. It isn't. The land is always God's.

We're not talking about the land, Episkopos. We're talking about Jesus being cast out of spiritual Israel, i.e. those who truly belong to God and worship and serve Him in Spirit and truth. It seems to me you are suggesting they found a way to make Jesus a sinner, and themselves do what only God the Father could do in casting Him out of God's spiritual kingdom.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Okay. You asked about the ‘far county’ ...weapons of destruction come from a far country.

Isaiah 13:4-9
[4] The noise of a multitude in the mountains, like as of a great people; a tumultuous noise of the kingdoms of nations gathered together: the Lord of hosts mustereth the host of the battle. [5] They come from a far country, from the end of heaven, even the Lord , and the weapons of his indignation, to destroy the whole land. [6] Howl ye; for the day of the Lord is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty. [7] Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt: [8] And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames. [9] Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

So your position is that the Lord went to the nations? When do you place this event then?

 

[Hidden In Him]

Regarding that expression "cast Him out of the vineyard"...it is no coincidence that Jesus was crucified outside Jerusalem.

Ok, then with you let me proceed to my next question, Brakelite.

In verse 14, Jesus defines Himself as "the heir" of the vineyard, whom they decide to kill. Now, if He is the heir of the vineyard and the vineyard is Jerusalem, doesn't that mean that He is Heir to the throne of Jerusalem, and therefore not yet done with literal Israel?

 

[Episkopos]

We're not talking about the land, Episkopos. We're talking about Jesus being cast out of spiritual Israel, i.e. those who truly belong to God and worship and serve Him in Spirit and truth. It seems to me you are suggesting they found a way to make Jesus a sinner, and themselves do what only God the Father could do in casting Him out of God's spiritual kingdom.

Jesus was rejected out of the outer realm...not the inner realm. The leaders of israel had no understanding of inner things of the Spirit. To them it was fantasy. All they saw was that they should be obeyed in their outer estimations. But these outer estimations were at variance with God's decrees. So then a prophetic correction on the part of a prophet (Or Jesus Himself) would simply be seen as disobedience to THEIR authority.

People who are in the land of Israel but not spiritual are squatters as it were. This is a picture of the church being full of people who teach and run the show but are not spiritual in Christ.

It is all about patterns.

A spiritual person is rejected by nonspiritual authority...always.

Jesus came to the leaders of Israel....as a spiritual man. He was rejected by the leaders. But so were all the prophets.

And so it goes....even till this day.

People think a church is run by a person who is trained by men to be a "pastor." The pastor has authority in his "own" church. If God sends a prophet to correct the pastor....there is a 99.9% chance that that prophet will be seen as disrespectful of the pastor's perceived authority and be rejected. It is a "my way or the highway" attitude that is common among ALL human organizations. It's a pride thing. But God resists the proud.

In that case is that church of God or not?

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Sudden destruction runs up on a man. Who calls the sudden destruction?(for what reason?) Who brought attention to Job? All I’m saying is there is an instrument to make waste the land and to make desolate. Isaiah 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.

Isaiah 46:10-11
[10] Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: [11] Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it , I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it , I will also do it.

Ezekiel 39:3-4
[3] And I will smite thy bow out of thy left hand, and will cause thine arrows to fall out of thy right hand. [4] Thou shalt fall upon the mountains of Israel, thou, and all thy bands, and the people that is with thee: I will give thee unto the ravenous(starved) birds of every sort, and to the beasts of the field to be devoured.

Jeremiah 15:3
[3] And I will appoint over them four kinds, saith the Lord : the sword to slay, and the dogs to tear, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the earth, to devour and destroy. (it is armies) (people)

Philippians 3:2
[2] Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision.

Zechariah 11:15-17
[15] And the Lord said unto me, Take unto thee yet the instruments of a foolish shepherd. [16] For, lo, I will raise up a shepherd in the land, which shall not visit those that be cut off, neither shall seek the young one, nor heal that that is broken, nor feed that that standeth still: but he shall eat the flesh of the fat, and tear their claws in pieces. [17] Woe to the idol shepherd that leaveth the flock! the sword shall be upon his arm, and upon his right eye: his arm shall be clean dried up, and his right eye shall be utterly darkened.

I could ask you when he became a shepherd? Please consider Matthew 21:40-42 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen? [41] They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons. [42] Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

Is it marvellous in our eyes?

 

[icxn]

The Jews were always physically and spiritually Israel, God's vineyard. They physically cast Him out by crucifying Him outside of their city and spiritually by rejecting Him as their Messiah. Since Christ is the vine (or the root of the vine), those who rejected Him essentially cut themselves off from Him and ceased to be Israel in the way it matters, i.e. spiritually.

Those of us who have been grafted unto this vine and are truly Israel, are also His throne if we allow Him to direct or rule every thought, word and deed of ours. In this sense Christ is already seated in His throne, the soul that has established herself as a city of peace, Jerusalem, fortified with His commandments as walls and the dogmas of our faith, especially those of the Holy Trinity and the Incarnation as towers and self-control over our senses as secure gates (Nehemiah 3).

 

[Dave L]

Greetings all. Wanted to create a thread to discuss this with everyone, but especially those who believe the Lord is done with Israel in the prophetic scheme of things. I am sending an invite especially to those I know who hold this position (sorry if I forgot anyone), but all are invited to comment if they wish.

Blessings in Christ,
Hidden in Him

@brakelite @quietthinker @Dave L @Episkopos

I will quote the Parable as it is described in Luke first, but I can add the version in Matthew as well. Please start by answering my comments that follow.

9 And he began to speak unto the people this parable: A man planted a vineyard, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into another country for a long time.
10 And at the season he sent unto the husbandmen a servant, that they should give him of the fruit of the vineyard: but the husbandmen beat him, and sent him away empty.
11 And he sent yet another servant: and him also they beat, and handled him shamefully, and sent him away empty.
12 And he sent yet a third: and him also they wounded, and cast him forth.
13 And the lord of the vineyard said, What shall I do? I will send my beloved son; it may be they will reverence him.
14 But when the husbandmen saw him, they reasoned one with another, saying, This is the heir; let us kill him, that the inheritance may be ours.
15 And they cast him forth out of the vineyard, and killed him. What therefore will the lord of the vineyard do unto them?
16 He will come and destroy these husbandmen, and will give the vineyard unto others. And when they heard it, they said, God forbid.
17 But he looked upon them, and said, What then is this that is written, The stone which the builders rejected, The same was made the head of the corner?
18 Every one that falleth on that stone shall be broken to pieces; but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will scatter him as dust. (Luke 20:9-18)

Question #1:
I assume most would agree the "far country" the Lord goes into here is a reference to Heaven after the Lord descended upon Mt. Sinai and travelled with the Jews in the cloud and in the pillar of smoke until they finally entered the promised land. The husbandmen would be the Jewish leadership, and the servants the Lord sent would be the prophets.

Who or what is the vineyard? The vineyard in this Parable is Israel, yes?

Thanks in advance to all who participate.

Jesus IS Israel, and the people God calls by his name. So he breaks off the unbelieving physical members of Israel and grafts in believing gentiles (the "others") in their place.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Jesus was rejected out of the outer realm...not the inner realm. The leaders of israel had no understanding of inner things of the Spirit. To them it was fantasy. All they saw was that they should be obeyed in their outer estimations. But these outer estimations were at variance with God's decrees. So then a prophetic correction on the part of a prophet (Or Jesus Himself) would simply be seen as disobedience to THEIR authority.

People who are in the land of Israel but not spiritual are squatters as it were. This is a picture of the church being full of people who teach and run the show but are not spiritual in Christ.

It is all about patterns.

A spiritual person is rejected by nonspiritual authority...always.

Jesus came to the leaders of Israel....as a spiritual man. He was rejected by the leaders. But so were all the prophets.

And so it goes....even till this day.

People think a church is run by a person who is trained by men to be a "pastor." The pastor has authority in his "own" church. If God sends a prophet to correct the pastor....there is a 99.9% chance that that prophet will be seen as disrespectful of the pastor's perceived authority and be rejected. It is a "my way or the highway" attitude that is common among ALL human organizations. It's a pride thing. But God resists the proud.

In that case is that church of God or not?

Next time try talking to me, Episkopos (LoL!) I asked you a question.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Sudden destruction runs up on a man. Who calls the sudden destruction?(for what reason?) Who brought attention to Job? All I’m saying is there is an instrument to make waste the land and to make desolate. Isaiah 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.

Isaiah 46:10-11
[10] Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: [11] Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it , I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it , I will also do it.

Ezekiel 39:3-4
[3] And I will smite thy bow out of thy left hand, and will cause thine arrows to fall out of thy right hand. [4] Thou shalt fall upon the mountains of Israel, thou, and all thy bands, and the people that is with thee: I will give thee unto the ravenous(starved) birds of every sort, and to the beasts of the field to be devoured.

Jeremiah 15:3
[3] And I will appoint over them four kinds, saith the Lord : the sword to slay, and the dogs to tear, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the earth, to devour and destroy. (it is armies) (people)

Philippians 3:2
[2] Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision.

Zechariah 11:15-17
[15] And the Lord said unto me, Take unto thee yet the instruments of a foolish shepherd. [16] For, lo, I will raise up a shepherd in the land, which shall not visit those that be cut off, neither shall seek the young one, nor heal that that is broken, nor feed that that standeth still: but he shall eat the flesh of the fat, and tear their claws in pieces. [17] Woe to the idol shepherd that leaveth the flock! the sword shall be upon his arm, and upon his right eye: his arm shall be clean dried up, and his right eye shall be utterly darkened.

I could ask you when he became a shepherd? Please consider Matthew 21:40-42 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen? [41] They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons. [42] Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

Is it marvellous in our eyes?

Victory, you often seem to be driving on points without ever having made them directly. In my experience with studying scholarship, the less directly someone answers a question, the weaker their argument generally is so they have to dance around a lot (like Episkopos is doing, LoL). I'm not certain you were responding to me, however, so maybe that accounts for things, and my apologies if it was not. But if this post was in response to mine, let me ask again: If your position is that the Lord went to the nations, when do you place that event in time? Like where specifically during Israel's history?

Blessings in Christ, and thanks for your post.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Victory, you often seem to be driving on points without ever having made them directly.

You are right. I’ve tried to get past it but I haven’t been able to.

If your position is that the Lord went to the nations, when do you place that event in time? Like where specifically during Israel's history?

To the Gentiles. Many nations.

But I was asking about weapons of destruction coming from the far country. Not about the gospel being taken to the Gentiles(many nations). God said He would make desolate and barren.

 

[Hidden In Him]

They physically cast Him out by crucifying Him outside of their city and spiritually by rejecting Him as their Messiah.

Greetings, icxn.

I'm looking for direct answers in this thread, brother. So let me ask you then: What specifically is the vineyard in this parable? Everyone so far has given me four and five paragraph answers, and it can't be that complicated. Is it literal Israel, spiritual Israel, or something else? Having it both ways is cheating the parable. Christ's crucifixion was being referenced in this parable, and this was a literal event. The suggestion then is that the entire parable is referencing literal events and places, is it not?

 

[Hidden In Him]

You are right. I’ve tried to get past it but I haven’t been able to.



To the Gentiles. Many nations.

But I was asking about weapons of destruction coming from the far country. Not about the gospel being taken to the Gentiles(many nations). God said He would make desolate and barren.

Oh, so you are saying that He left off from Israel and went to bring judgment upon the nations. Now I get it. My apologies, LoL.

Well, you would still need to place His time of planting the vineyard into some sort of historical context and then go from there. And that would lead me back to Mt Sinai as the obvious choice.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Jesus IS Israel, and the people God calls by his name. So he breaks off the unbelieving physical members of Israel and grafts in believing gentiles (the "others") in their place.

I was going for specifics, Dave. So the first question was, Who is the vineyard in this parable? Be specific.

 

[Dave L]

I was going for specifics, Dave. So the first question was, Who is the vineyard in this parable? Be specific.

The kingdom of God?

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Oh, so you are saying that He left off from Israel and went to bring judgment upon the nations.

not exactly.

Daniel 8:13
[13] Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice , and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

Lamentations 1:15
[15] The Lord hath trodden under foot all my mighty men in the midst of me: he hath called an assembly against me to crush my young men: the Lord hath trodden the virgin, the daughter of Judah, as in a winepress.

 

[Hidden In Him]

The kingdom of God?

His spiritual kingdom on earth, or literal Israel? which one?

 

[Hidden In Him]

Lamentations 1:15
[15] The Lord hath trodden under foot all my mighty men in the midst of me: he hath called an assembly against me to crush my young men: the Lord hath trodden the virgin, the daughter of Judah, as in a winepress.

Then you are saying what, that He left Israel after planting the vineyard to go bring judgment on Israel? I'm trying here, but maybe you would need to do a line by line analysis of every verse in the parable for me to be able to follow you. It's sort of what I was hoping for from everyone anyway.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

you would still need to place His time of planting the vineyard

Genesis 9:20-21
[20] And Noah began to be an husbandman, and he planted a vineyard: [21] And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent.

Our husbandman (Ark) is from above and He planted a different vineyard.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Genesis 9:20-21
[20] And Noah began to be an husbandman, and he planted a vineyard: [21] And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent.

Our husbandman (Ark) is from above and He planted a different vineyard.

See if you can copy the parable from the OP and then insert after each verse exactly what you think each verse is referencing. And be specific, such as "the vineyard represents such and such. The servants represent such and such." Like that. Maybe that would help.