I think it is clear from my response that the people of Israel are the vineyard. This vineyard, and specifically those that believed Christ’s message, and which has now grown to include the Gentiles, was given to the Apostles, the new husbandmen and to those whom they appointed and their successors throughout the ages to take care of.
Parable Of The Wicked Husbandmen
- Thread starter Hidden In Him
- Start date
-
- Tags
- parables
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
bbyrd009
Groper
- Nov 30, 2016
- 33,943
- 12,081
- 113
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- United States Minor Outlying Islands
Then by "the people of Israel" you are referring to spiritual Israel and not the nation of Israel, correct?
IMO, the vineyard is the Truth of God's Word and it is suppose to produce fruit but the wicked husbandmen (the false prophets and teachers) have made it a field of thorns, choking out the Word...and when those who come to receive the truth they are sent away empty because there is no truth to be found in it.
By denying He is the Christ and crucifying him....just because they cast him out doesn't mean the rest of us did...lol.Ok. Then how did they cast Jesus out of the truth of God's word? (v.15)
At the time they were one and the same... or at least trying to be, the spiritual part I mean.
Yes, trying to be.
They weren't one and the same though, in my opinion. Some were true Israel spiritually, but many were not. See, what I am encountering in this thread is this: The primary argument is that "the vineyard" was a reference to both literal and spiritual Israel in some sense. I would allow for that argument, but only if it was first established what the literal interpretations were for the specific people, places and events mentioned in the parable. One cannot spiritualize something that isn't real first. When we speak of "spiritual Israel," we are spiritualizing a literal people genealogically and nationally. So before moving on to spiritual applications, I would first insist that determinations be made on the literal references first.
And it is in the literal references that I think I prove my case.
I'm not sure they had much of a hold on the truth of God's word to begin with.
It's not like they had a corner on the market, LoL.I know this is somewhat off topic, and I hope HiddenInHim will forgive me, but the story of Noah you quoted is not entirely irrelevant.
Noah represent God the Father, the true Husbandman. The vineyard is of course the people of Israel whose evil deeds, as if intoxicating wine, caused Him to uncover Himself. The uncovering of God symbolizes the mystery of the Incarnation. God’s nakedness* is none other than Jesus Christ whose humility and uncomeliness (Isaiah 53:2) the Jews (Ham) treated with ridicule. Unlike them, the Saints of the Old Testament symbolized by Shem, since he was the firstborn, and those of the New Testament, Japheth, the last son, treated Him with reverence, accepting the mystery of the Incarnation. It says, “God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem;” This enlargement is the multitudes of the Gentiles that believed the Gospel and joined the tents of Shem.
The walking backwards and covering the nakedness of their father is exactly what this interpretative method does. Using the mysteries revealed in the New Testament as garment, to cover the ‘nakedness’ of the Old Testament letter.
_____________
* Nakedness here refers of course to the reproductive organs that is yet another indirect reference to the Son of God. I'm talking about the fathering of children.
That should be quite obvious from this passage:
King James Bible
For the vineyard of the LORD of hosts is the house of Israel, and the men of Judah his pleasant plant: and he looked for judgment, but behold oppression; for righteousness, but behold a cry. (Isa 5:7)
It should be quite obvious from the Gospels that even though this was the case, there was no spiritual fruit in Israel. The parable's meaning is clear:
The certain man = God
The vineyard = Israel
The husbandmen = the religious leaders (scribes, Pharisees, lawyers)
The servants = the prophets sent to Israel from time to time
The fruit = genuine righteousness
The beloved son and heir = Christ
The destruction of the husbandmen = God's judgment on Israel and its leaders.
The Stone which the builders rejected = Christ who will crush all His enemies under His feet.
I fully agree, and the fact that you are the first to actually itemize the parable almost in its entirety is I believe testimony to the fact that the futurist position explains the parable most persuasively, and can be done with relative ease. The historicist and spiritualized interpretations take a whole lot more work.
Thanks for the post, Enoch.
Btw, How many futurists do we currently have at this forum anyway?
I don't own the thread.
And they always develop a life of their own. I'm a stickler for being very strict and exacting when it comes to analyzing specific passages, but I have no problem with exploring ideas off the beaten path.
VictoryinJesus
Well-Known Member
- Jan 26, 2017
- 9,669
- 7,924
- 113
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- United States
Who built Noah’s Ark? Is it the same Ark we are to enter into now?
God’s nakedness was Jesus?? I’m not sure I understand. Man’s nakedness was Jesus and we try to cover up that naked vulnerability with all sorts of things. Weakness is shameful to us. Isn’t that why God uses the weak? The despised. The rejected. So no man can say it is a work of the flesh but is a work of God. Cause in our weakness God fully demonstrates His strength and power.
In that particular context, yes. I realize it's a 'strange' interpretation, more of a type and a shadow. I thought the explanation I gave was sufficient, but evidently I was wrong. Don't focus only on the objects/actors but also their interactions/relationships. The latter is as useful if not more in finding links between scriptural passages as the former. I don't know how else to explain it, forgive me.
VictoryinJesus
Well-Known Member
- Jan 26, 2017
- 9,669
- 7,924
- 113
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- United States
It is ok. I kind of get what you are saying but I never saw Jesus as God’s Nakedness but as man’s. The cover laid over the nakedness of Noah...yes it is Christ but then He did bear our shame. Habakkuk 2:15-16 Woe unto him that giveth his neighbour drink, that puttest thy bottle to him , and makest him drunken also, that thou mayest look on their nakedness! [16] Thou art filled with shame for glory: drink thou also, and let thy foreskin be uncovered: the cup of the Lord's right hand shall be turned unto thee, and shameful spewing shall be on thy glory.
Sounds like:Revelation 3:16-17
[16] So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. [17] Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
LOL sbg....I'm the coconut man fallererThere's a lot of good here.
I still am of the opinion that you focus on the outside of the cup though, rather than the inside. The letter, rather than the spirit, of a matter.
I won't bore you with laying it all out again. I'm convinced God will show you.
I keep confusing two particular men in here over and over again. I was thinking AGAIN for some odd reason, that you are the man who fell out of a coconut tree, so I was going to ask if you were out of the hospital yet, but I'm almost certain you are not him. What is his name? I might get the two of you unconfused finally!
....and yes I'm out of the hospital even off the crutches and walking around on my own pegs, slowly might i add and sometimes with trepidation. All in all it's going well and I thank God for his healing which is surprising the nurses and doctors at its relative speed.I've been walking the beach a couple of times a day for the last week now and even ride my motorcycle though I daren't tell the medical people that
On another note....Brakelite has presented an excellent response to the thread.
I might add to your comment re letter and spirit..... 'letter' is when the point is missed....'spirit' is when it's principle registers. To muddle these is to do a disservice to oneself.
I've been walking the beach a couple of times a day for the last week now and even ride my motorcycle though I daren't tell the medical people that
LoL. I envy you. The beach is my favorite place to be on earth - I could sit there all day every day and not get bored, but I haven't seen one in more than a decade now (I never have a day off). Almost makes me wanna fall out of a coconut tree myself so I can walk the beach for a week.
P.S. You can keep the motorcycles, though. No balance. I'd probably end up hitting a coconut tree in one of those.
Hello,
I though that it would be good to respond much earlier, but I have a 12 hr or so lag because of the need to sleep to which overpowers any of the thoughts that I might have had.
The beginning of Israel, can only be linked with the Birth of Isaac, out of which the seed of Israel developed through the selection of Jacob initially and then the subsequent sons born to Jacob.
Initially, the first husbandman of God was Abraham at the very start and is found in Genesis 18:19: - 19 For I have known him, in order that he may command/teach his children and his household after him, that they keep the way of the Lord, to do righteousness and justice, that the Lord may bring to Abraham what He has spoken to him."
For some 635 years the heads of the households of the tribes of Israel acted as the "Priests" over their household and, at Mt. Sinai, God entered into a Covenant with Israel to be a Kingdom of Priests and a Holy Nation, and His Possession among the nations, but in under forty days, leaders of the tribes rebelled against God and sinned wanting to have god's similar to what they had experienced in Egypt over them because of the silence of Moses while he was up on the Mountain with God.
Moses intercession on behalf of the tribes of Israel, saved Israel from God's desire to destroy the nation of Israel, and because princes of the tribes of Israel had rebelled against God, God then set over Israel only one tribe to be the priests for the twelve tribes
Sadly, the understanding of God, passed down from Abraham to Gethro a descendant of Abraham's second family through Keturah, who was a friend of God, and then to Moses was slowly lost over the next 1400 or so years and the understanding of being in relationship with their God, lost out to the prescriptive method of establishing their relationship with God on a yearly basis when they would offer up their sin offering, but sadly they lost all understanding of what it meant to have a heart after God.
In Daniel 9:25, God gave Israel 490 years to stop their transgressions against God before the end of the second age of their existance, but even the Priestly orders continued in their idolatrous practices such that the Second Commandment, found in Exodus 20:4-6, kicked in and the visitation of the iniquities of the fathers of the first two ages of Israel began because Israel would not repent, nor did the Priestly leaders of the nation lead them into repentance for their idolatrous behaviour.
Jesus came, around 30 years later, teaching that the nation of Israel needed to repent of their sins and that they needed to sin no more. The priest knew that this was indeed the message that they themselves should have been preaching, and that they were the leaders of a wicked nation who should have been teaching the nation to repent of their sins. They also knew from Daniel 11, that the people who rejected the covenant would be complicit with the Little Horn's agent that was coming to destroy the Nation. They also knew that their Messiah was to come, but because Christ coming was unsettling for them, they chose to reject the cornerstone, that truth that would come down out of heaven during the time of the many nations having dominion over Babylon and grind into dust those nations that rejected that truth such that it would be blown away before the end of the ages of the Age.
The parable of the Wicked Tenants is contrasted by the Parable of a Man who had Planted a Fig Tree who continued to look for fruit from the tree for three seasons, and when he had found no fruit, he asked the husbandman of his garden to destroy the fig tree, but the husbandman interceded on behalf of the Fig Tree and asked for another season to see if the Fig Tree would bear fruit by the end of that season so that the Fig Tree would live.
God has not yet rejected the nation of Israel and as Paul tells us in Romans 11:25-26 all of Israel will be saved after the judgement of the wicked heavenly hosts in the heavens and the kings of the earth on the earth at Armageddon when the trampling of the Sanctuary of God by the Heathen Gentiles will end after the passing of 2,300 years.
God has rejected the Priesthood of Jesus' day but He intends to gather all of Israel to Himself and plant them in fertile soil and to teach them about the truth found in the foundational Rock that is to come down out of heaven in our near future. God will train up Israel Himself to become a Kingdom of Priests and a Holy Nation and His possession among the nations once more.
As has been suggested above, the present day "priest" need to consider their position in Christ and the teaching that they are giving to verify that it is in accordance with the understanding of God. God is looking for a people who understand the meaning of God's Justice in providing for the widows and orphans, the hungry and the naked and those who have had a heavy burden placed onto them by wrong understanding, and who will keep God's Sabbath Day for Mankind Holy.
What can we learn from the Parable of the wicked tenants? That we need to know the heart of God in all things and be prepared to wear that on the outside so that all will see what it means to be a disciple of Christ, even if it is costly to do, even at the cost of our own life.
Shalom
I though that it would be good to respond much earlier, but I have a 12 hr or so lag because of the need to sleep to which overpowers any of the thoughts that I might have had.
The beginning of Israel, can only be linked with the Birth of Isaac, out of which the seed of Israel developed through the selection of Jacob initially and then the subsequent sons born to Jacob.
Initially, the first husbandman of God was Abraham at the very start and is found in Genesis 18:19: - 19 For I have known him, in order that he may command/teach his children and his household after him, that they keep the way of the Lord, to do righteousness and justice, that the Lord may bring to Abraham what He has spoken to him."
For some 635 years the heads of the households of the tribes of Israel acted as the "Priests" over their household and, at Mt. Sinai, God entered into a Covenant with Israel to be a Kingdom of Priests and a Holy Nation, and His Possession among the nations, but in under forty days, leaders of the tribes rebelled against God and sinned wanting to have god's similar to what they had experienced in Egypt over them because of the silence of Moses while he was up on the Mountain with God.
Moses intercession on behalf of the tribes of Israel, saved Israel from God's desire to destroy the nation of Israel, and because princes of the tribes of Israel had rebelled against God, God then set over Israel only one tribe to be the priests for the twelve tribes
Sadly, the understanding of God, passed down from Abraham to Gethro a descendant of Abraham's second family through Keturah, who was a friend of God, and then to Moses was slowly lost over the next 1400 or so years and the understanding of being in relationship with their God, lost out to the prescriptive method of establishing their relationship with God on a yearly basis when they would offer up their sin offering, but sadly they lost all understanding of what it meant to have a heart after God.
In Daniel 9:25, God gave Israel 490 years to stop their transgressions against God before the end of the second age of their existance, but even the Priestly orders continued in their idolatrous practices such that the Second Commandment, found in Exodus 20:4-6, kicked in and the visitation of the iniquities of the fathers of the first two ages of Israel began because Israel would not repent, nor did the Priestly leaders of the nation lead them into repentance for their idolatrous behaviour.
Jesus came, around 30 years later, teaching that the nation of Israel needed to repent of their sins and that they needed to sin no more. The priest knew that this was indeed the message that they themselves should have been preaching, and that they were the leaders of a wicked nation who should have been teaching the nation to repent of their sins. They also knew from Daniel 11, that the people who rejected the covenant would be complicit with the Little Horn's agent that was coming to destroy the Nation. They also knew that their Messiah was to come, but because Christ coming was unsettling for them, they chose to reject the cornerstone, that truth that would come down out of heaven during the time of the many nations having dominion over Babylon and grind into dust those nations that rejected that truth such that it would be blown away before the end of the ages of the Age.
The parable of the Wicked Tenants is contrasted by the Parable of a Man who had Planted a Fig Tree who continued to look for fruit from the tree for three seasons, and when he had found no fruit, he asked the husbandman of his garden to destroy the fig tree, but the husbandman interceded on behalf of the Fig Tree and asked for another season to see if the Fig Tree would bear fruit by the end of that season so that the Fig Tree would live.
God has not yet rejected the nation of Israel and as Paul tells us in Romans 11:25-26 all of Israel will be saved after the judgement of the wicked heavenly hosts in the heavens and the kings of the earth on the earth at Armageddon when the trampling of the Sanctuary of God by the Heathen Gentiles will end after the passing of 2,300 years.
God has rejected the Priesthood of Jesus' day but He intends to gather all of Israel to Himself and plant them in fertile soil and to teach them about the truth found in the foundational Rock that is to come down out of heaven in our near future. God will train up Israel Himself to become a Kingdom of Priests and a Holy Nation and His possession among the nations once more.
As has been suggested above, the present day "priest" need to consider their position in Christ and the teaching that they are giving to verify that it is in accordance with the understanding of God. God is looking for a people who understand the meaning of God's Justice in providing for the widows and orphans, the hungry and the naked and those who have had a heavy burden placed onto them by wrong understanding, and who will keep God's Sabbath Day for Mankind Holy.
What can we learn from the Parable of the wicked tenants? That we need to know the heart of God in all things and be prepared to wear that on the outside so that all will see what it means to be a disciple of Christ, even if it is costly to do, even at the cost of our own life.
Shalom
Last edited:
I always took the vineyard as representating the world in general and the produce of the vineyard as the pleasing righteous deeds and faith of God's children. Those surrendered and controlled by the Holy Spirit would be ripe with fruits of the Holy Spirit in God's vineyard (spiritual Israel)
More on topic, I don't believe God is finished with physical Israel. In Genesis 17:7 God states his covenant with Israel is everlasting:
"I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants after you for the generations to come, to be your God and the God of your descendants after you."
He mentions "your descendants" meaning physical Israel in this passage.
Similar threads
