Partial preterisims and revelation chapter by chapter part 1

[Marty fox]

The important and very crucial factor helpful in interpreting the Book of Revelation correctly is the date that it was written. there is confident agreement by a majority of scholars that put the date that John wrote this book around A. D. 95
There are several reasons for this. A letter written around A. D. 180 by Irenaeus, a disciple of Polycarp (who was a disciple and successor of John) states that "pronouncing the name of the Antichrist would be incurring a risk and if it were necessary at the time it was written, it would have been revealed by Christ." They did not know the name of Antichrist. If it was Nero in their past, then they would have stated it. Nero was an antichrist. All the people in history who have persecuted Christians or create lies about Christ are antichrists as well. But Nero was only small change in comparison to the Antichrist during the Great Tribulation period. Clement of Alexandria, Origen and Eusibius all support the date of Revelation given by Irenaeus which was around the end of the Domitian's reign.
Did you get who Irenaeus was? He was a disciple of Polycarp, who was a disciple of John, who wrote Revelation. Don't you think that he knew the date Revelation was written? Do you know your grandfather, what he did and when he did it, especially if he did something historical? This is equivalent to the grandson of Beethoven knowing when grandpa wrote his first symphony, in 1800.
Further info:
Smyrna was not mentioned anywhere else in scripture suggesting that it was a newer church which was started late in the first century.
Polycarp was said to be the Bishop of Smyrna and born around 70 A. D. Since he was a disciple and successor of John, then this church began decades after the destruction of Jerusalem.
Finally, Polycarp said that no church in Smyrna existed in A. D. 67.
Not convinced yet? There's more.
If John wrote Revelation before A.D. 70, it would overlap Paul's letter to Timothy who was in Ephesus at the time.
The problems Jesus points out in Revelation concerning Ephesus and Laodicea are not evident in Paul's letters.
John probably did not move to Ephesus until after Paul and Peter were martyred. Nero killed Christians and their prophets including Paul and Peter. That was his style. He would have also killed John if he was around.
But John became banished to Patmos. That was Domitian's style of punishment.


And all you can say is "nobody actually knows". Preterists don't want to know, they discard any evidence that works against their view. It is like what we see the Left-Wing Media and government doing today. Ouch, it you are a Left- Winger! Don't want to get political, really. But it is interesting when you find out about people with opposite views on religious topics, usually they are on the opposite sides in politics too. And don't mention anything negative about Trump, I will slam dunk you hard! Just kidding. No, if you are really a Democrat, I will probably end my dialogue with you, because there is this impenetrable wall there that separates us. It's beyond us really, it's supernatural in scope. We war not against flesh and blood but against powers and principalities of darkness. The world is now controlled by dark forces.

There are many who believe it was written before 70AD I have books with many Christian writers writing about it and have seen debates about it but nobody can prove when it was written and nobody outside of the bible have biblical authority.

I go by history and the purpose of revelation

 

[Marty fox]

And? Judas was replaced too.


Yes is does. "They have not defiled themselves with women." Did you catch that in there?

There is a distinction between the two. The Multitude in heaven, no one can number - billions. Yet the 144, 000 is specific.


Oh I get it. You combine your theology with 4th grade math and come up with truth.


This is conjecture, I can't prove it, but I do not think Israel ( referred to in Rom. 11) will be grafted into the Body until after they see Christ coming in the clouds. It could ne moments after we are taken, the same day ...? Certainly not 7 years later. You see, since I do not believe in the Pre-trib. view, I don't accept the gap theory either. The 490 years prophecy pointed only to Christ's first coming.
Anyways, moving forward, Some people are persuaded by the Two Witnesses testimony, who evangelize the Jews during this time and others on the planet as well. But many are still not convinced, on the fence, until they see Christ and then they mourn and believe. So those left behind after the rapture who realize their error, have not taken the mark of the Beast and believe ... will
repopulate Jerusalem and the world during the Millennial Kingdom. So 144k virgin women would have to be available within that remnant Israel. Then after the 1000 years their offspring will be tested once again.

So can women defile themselves with women?

It’s the same with the 144 cubics size of the walls in the New Jerusalem. It’s no coincidence that it’s 144 and not 143 or 145 why do you think it’s 144 cubics?

 

[Marty fox]

I'm not saying they take the Gospel to the world. No need to add what I don't say, and then say that's wrong. That's the "Straw Man".

I'm saying they are 12,000 from each of 12 tribes, 144,000 Jewish men who have not yet had sex.



The church is called the bride of the Lamb by the church, but not in the Bible. Yet, that's a different matter.

RE the 144,000, the nouns and pronouns used are all masculine. For a mixed group, they should be neuter. And in saying they had not defiled themselves with women, that also agrees with this.


And many people believe that also. Still, there are many who do not. So don't we go to Scripture for the answer? Where in the Bible does it tell us these are not actually 144,000 Jewish men? Where does it tell us what they otherwise represent? If you do not have that, then it's just more people with more opinions, but no Scriptural substance.



If you don't understand the reason, does that mean it can't still happen the way described? I have my own view on that if you are interested. Whether my idea is correct or not, that doesn't mean God can't or won't do exactly as described.



And in what way do they show that? Which "spiritual tribe" are you? Wouldn't saying that the church is sealed with protection from God's wrath be a more effective way to communicate that? Aren't there many many equally plain statements in the Bible, and in the Revelation? Why should we think that messages have to be encoded?

What would God have to say if He wanted to communicate that He was having sealed 144,000 actual Jewish male virgins?

Much love!

I guess God would have to actually say 144 Jewish men.

Women can defile themselves with women too

If there are only 144000 then why wouldn’t God put the seal of protection on the other Christians?

Sometimes we shouldn’t assume and also have too consider what the bible doesn’t actually say

 

[Zao is life]

I guess God would have to actually say 144 Jewish men.

Women can defile themselves with women too

If there are only 144000 then why wouldn’t God put the seal of protection on the other Christians?

Sometimes we shouldn’t assume and also have too consider what the bible doesn’t actually say

At least you're correct about this. If only you and everyone else would understand that the New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:31) was promised to (and therefore established in the blood of Christ only with) the house of Israel and the house of Judah.

The fact that is completely ignored by everyone who argues your point about the 144,000 in Revelation 7, is the fact that Judah (i.e Jews) consisted only of two of the tribes listed in Revelation 7, i.e Judah and Benjamin. Paul was a Benjamite.

Revelation 21
12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.
16 And the city lies foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.
17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.

12,000 x 12 = 144,000, and the wall is 144 cubits.

Not only are the twelve tribes also mentioned in Revelation 7:3-8, but verses 3 & 9 (both verses) of Revelation 7 identifies who they are:

3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and families, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands.

It goes back to this:

Romans 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that all of you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest all of you should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob.
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Jeremiah 31
31 Behold, the days come, says the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah.

Matthew 26
28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

So the Gentiles who believe in Jesus are grafted into Israel among the Jewish remnant who believe (Romans 11:17 and Romans 9:25-26):

Romans 9
25 As He also says in Hosea, "I will call those not My people, My people; and those not beloved, Beloved."
26 And it shall be, in the place where it was said to them. "You are not My people; there they shall be called sons of the living God."

The above prophecy refers to the house of Israel.

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The Jews (the house of Judah) have no right to exclude the Gentiles (who are regarded by God as the house of Israel), from Revelation 7's twelve tribes, and vice-versa.

Why on earth the Gentiles would exclude themselves from the twelve tribes in Revelation 7, would be beyond me, were it not for the fact that I recognize what faulty theology does.

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You are the second person who has pointed out the link to the 144 cubits of the walls of the New Jerusalem. Thanks Between you and the second person, you have helped me to see it.

(So you see, I've long passed the stage where I think I can learn nothing from those whose opinions I disagree with regarding certain things).

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

There are many who believe it was written before 70AD I have books with many Christian writers writing about it and have seen debates about it but nobody can prove when it was written and nobody outside of the bible have biblical authority.

I go by history and the purpose of revelation

Polycarp and Iraeneus are historical figures; the information about Smyrna , the problems in Ephesus in Revelation that was absent in Paul's Ephesians, is all history... where's yours?

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

So can women defile themselves with women

Women or men ... you don't know this ... adultery, fornication?

It’s the same with the 144 cubics size of the walls in the New Jerusalem. It’s no coincidence that it’s 144 and not 143 or 145 why do you think it’s 144 cubics?

"12" was a special number that God used. Rev. 21:12-21 tells about the construction if the New Jerusalem - like nothing in this planet:
"having a wall great and high; having twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels; and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: on the east were three gates; and on the north three gates; and on the south three gates; and on the west three gates. And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. And he that spake with me had for a measure a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof. And the city lieth foursquare, and the length thereof is as great as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs: the length and the breadth and the height thereof are equal. And he measured the wall thereof, a hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of an angel. And the building of the wall thereof was jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto pure glass. The foundations of the wall of the city were adorned with all manner of precious stones(twelve). The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, chalcedony; the fourth, emerald; the fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, topaz; the tenth, chrysoprase; the eleventh, jacinth; the twelfth, amethyst. And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; each one of the several gates was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass."
So the detailed description anoit the 144k in Rev. 7 & 14 should be taken literally.
Do you also symbolize the description of the construction that uses twelve of everything in the New Jerusalem as well?
No? You leave that alone and take that literally - because it doesn't interfere with your view.

 

[Marty fox]

Women or men ... you don't know this ... adultery, fornication?


"12" was a special number that God used. Rev. 21:12-21 tells about the construction if the New Jerusalem - like nothing in this planet:
"having a wall great and high; having twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels; and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: on the east were three gates; and on the north three gates; and on the south three gates; and on the west three gates. And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. And he that spake with me had for a measure a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof. And the city lieth foursquare, and the length thereof is as great as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs: the length and the breadth and the height thereof are equal. And he measured the wall thereof, a hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of an angel. And the building of the wall thereof was jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto pure glass. The foundations of the wall of the city were adorned with all manner of precious stones(twelve). The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, chalcedony; the fourth, emerald; the fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, topaz; the tenth, chrysoprase; the eleventh, jacinth; the twelfth, amethyst. And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; each one of the several gates was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass."
So the detailed description anoit the 144k in Rev. 7 & 14 should be taken literally.
Do you also symbolize the description of the construction that uses twelve of everything in the New Jerusalem as well?
No? You leave that alone and take that literally - because it doesn't interfere with your view.

Yes women can defile themselves with women that was my point it doesn’t have to be men

Actually your assumption is wrong I do think that the new Jerusalem is symbolic for the church why would it need walls as no one can get in and nobody would want to leave? I do have a very detailed study on it

I think that we both need to debate with each other with more grace and love. If we have different views it’s okay we are both on the same team

 

[Marty fox]

At least you're correct about this. If only you and everyone else would understand that the New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:31) was promised to (and therefore established in the blood of Christ only with) the house of Israel and the house of Judah.

The fact that is completely ignored by everyone who argues your point about the 144,000 in Revelation 7, is the fact that Judah (i.e Jews) consisted only of two of the tribes listed in Revelation 7, i.e Judah and Benjamin. Paul was a Benjamite.

Revelation 21
12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.
16 And the city lies foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.
17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.

12,000 x 12 = 144,000, and the wall is 144 cubits.

Not only are the twelve tribes also mentioned in Revelation 7:3-8, but verses 3 & 9 (both verses) of Revelation 7 identifies who they are:

3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and families, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands.

It goes back to this:

Romans 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that all of you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest all of you should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob.
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Jeremiah 31
31 Behold, the days come, says the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah.

Matthew 26
28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

So the Gentiles who believe in Jesus are grafted into Israel among the Jewish remnant who believe (Romans 11:17 and Romans 9:25-26):

Romans 9
25 As He also says in Hosea, "I will call those not My people, My people; and those not beloved, Beloved."
26 And it shall be, in the place where it was said to them. "You are not My people; there they shall be called sons of the living God."

The above prophecy refers to the house of Israel.

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The Jews (the house of Judah) have no right to exclude the Gentiles (who are regarded by God as the house of Israel), from Revelation 7's twelve tribes, and vice-versa.

Why on earth the Gentiles would exclude themselves from the twelve tribes in Revelation 7, would be beyond me, were it not for the fact that I recognize what faulty theology does.

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You are the second person who has pointed out the link to the 144 cubits of the walls of the New Jerusalem. Thanks Between you and the second person, you have helped me to see it.

(So you see, I've long passed the stage where I think I can learn nothing from those whose opinions I disagree with regarding certain things).

Your very welcome

Actually I do see the church made up of both Jew and gentile before and after the cross as True Israel this is why Paul said “not all Israel is Israel” and “in this way all Israel will be saved”

 

[Zao is life]

Your very welcome

Actually I do see the church made up of both Jew and gentile before and after the cross as True Israel this is why Paul said “not all Israel is Israel” and “in this way all Israel will be saved”

Yes. I also made the error at one time of thinking Romans 11:25-26 was a prophecy about a future event but

1. There is no way that anyone who is not in Christ through faith in Christ is considered God's chosen people, either by God, or anywhere in the New Testament. John the Baptist, then Jesus, then Paul all made that abundantly clear, and repeatedly so.

2. The only Deliverer to come out of Zion, is Jesus. ("There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob." Romans 11:26b).

 

[Zao is life]

There are many who believe it was written before 70AD I have books with many Christian writers writing about it and have seen debates about it but nobody can prove when it was written and nobody outside of the bible have biblical authority.

I go by history and the purpose of revelation

I don't agree with the above at all, for the same reasons cited by @Ronald David Bruno (but I think that by now you realize that).

With regards to all the events in the Revelation mentioned in chapters 4-20, I'm a futurist in my understanding of the scriptures. I also lean towards Pre-millennialism without rejecting out of hand the possibility that I may be wrong and Amills may, after all, be correct. I don't hold the Dispensational view regarding the identity of Israel and whether or not unbelievers who have been broken off have any covenant promise or covenant relationship with God, but I also don't reject the idea of different Ages in God's unfolding plan of salvation, but without calling the Ages "Dispensations", or thinking of them in that way.

I don't fit in anyone's Theological ism box.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Yes women can defile themselves with women that was my point it doesn’t have to be men

Actually your assumption is wrong I do think that the new Jerusalem is symbolic for the church why would it need walls as no one can get in and nobody would want to leave? I do have a very detailed study on it

I think that we both need to debate with each other with more grace and love. If we have different views it’s okay we are both on the same team

That's it, "I think the New Jerusalem is symbolic for the church".
So, God destroys the first earth and first heaven, we see the chuch (people) that are described symbolically as walls, foundations, stones, pearly gates, streets of gold, pillars. etc. And oh, the size of the church is 12,000 furlongs? How many people is that? Oh, the 144k is symbolic for the entire church. So where does this New Jerusalem reside now, since you've symbolized away the description of the new heaven???
Okay, there is nothing more I can say, we have reached a impasse and are done.

 

[Truth7t7]

Actually your assumption is wrong I do think that the new Jerusalem is symbolic for the church why would it need walls as no one can get in and nobody would want to leave? I do have a very detailed study on it

I think that we both need to debate with each other with more grace and love. If we have different views it’s okay we are both on the same team

Be Carefull With Your Symbolism In Removing (The Holy City) "New Jerusalem" From The Revelation

Revelation 22:18-19KJV
18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

 

[Marty fox]

Be Carefull With Your Symbolism In Removing (The Holy City) "New Jerusalem" From The Revelation

Revelation 22:18-19KJV
18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Thanks for the warning but I didn’t remove it I just stated my interpretation of it

 

[Marty fox]

That's it, "I think the New Jerusalem is symbolic for the church".
So, God destroys the first earth and first heaven, we see the chuch (people) that are described symbolically as walls, foundations, stones, pearly gates, streets of gold, pillars. etc. And oh, the size of the church is 12,000 furlongs? How many people is that? Oh, the 144k is symbolic for the entire church. So where does this New Jerusalem reside now, since you've symbolized away the description of the new heaven???
Okay, there is nothing more I can say, we have reached a impasse and are done.

I am using Jesus own words showing us the symbolism of us and He says where it is right now in the verse below

I am actually posting one the the images that you actually used the pillars and Jesus tells us exactly what that is below

Revelation 3:12
12 The one who is victorious I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will they leave it. I will write on them the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on them my new name.

So who is right you or Jesus?

In most of the Old Testament God resided with the people in the temple but God left it and destroyed it. In the New Testament He resides in us we are now the Holy city.

The angel shows John what the new Jerusalem is

Revelation 21:2 & 9-10
2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bridebeautifully dressed for her husband

9 One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.” 10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God.

 

[Timtofly]

I’ll take Paul’s biblical words over yours. My point is that Jesus and Paul used the same words and history proved them and my interpretation to be right. I am using the scriptures and history to back my belief and it’s not symbolic in this case.

So you believe that when I use symbolism I’m wrong or if I use history to prove my view and Jesus correct I’m wrong?

Jesus was talking about the end of the Old Testament temple and sacrificial age and history proved Jesus right which also proved He was God as Jesus made a prediction with a date stamp on it and it happened when He said that he would happen.

I really don’t understand why Christians deny Jesus fulfilled dated prophecy about it happening in that generation because of their interpretation of His prophecy. Jesus has history to back Him proving Him to be God and I’ll stick by what He said.

It did happen. It happened at the Cross. I am not sure why Christians do not recognize the Cross as the immediate stop to the OT economy. The veil of the Temple was rent from top to bottom. Not burned with fire, nor eaten by rats. The last day resurrection happened at the Cross. Those souls were bodily resurrected to be forever in Paradise. That was the end of the world. And all of that generation were still alive. Lazarus himself resurrected a few weeks earlier, still walking around as a living example of coming out of Abraham's bosom. John the Baptist would have had a new incorruptible body. Unless you think his body was walking around without a head? Or his head was floating around looking for the body? I guess the head had the eyes. Others who had died in the months leading up to the Cross are more than likely still in sheol waiting for the GWT.

Why not view the Cross as the end of the world? The church age/world was just starting. It was a brave new world after 30AD. It did not start in 70AD. Why would the church age only last 40 years?

 

[Timtofly]

See post number 31

Jerusalem was still called the Holy because God was still residing in the temple and Josephus tells us that He vacated the temple shortly before it was destroyed

You trust Josephus, a non Christian over the Gospel accounts that claim the Temple was rendered useless by God Himself?

You do realize that it was (according to history) rebels who ran Jerusalem. They were killing each other, and each other's priests to see who would have control of the Temple. How is God working in that mess? There was no humbling of the Jews, praying for God's forgiveness, repentance of sin, asking God to heal their land. There was rampant rebellion. It was a time of tribulation brought on by the Jews themselves.

Jesus had told them when they tried to trick Him, to render unto Ceasar the things which were Ceasar's. And unto God, the things which were God's. God no longer worked via the temple. God sent the Holy Spirit to teach and guide them. Yet they rebelled on all accounts.

 

[Timtofly]

And their are many scholars who believe it was written before 70AD as well.

I go buy what the purpose of Revelation is and history

The purpose of Revelation would be that Jesus would come to earth and for 3.5 years finish the 70th week of Daniel. Then Satan would be bound for 1000 years, and Christ would rule all nations with an iron rod. Until that purpose actually happens, then Revelation is still relevant as a future event. It was relevant then as much as every generation had advantage of Revelation's relevance.

The church has at times seemed to not even take Revelation into consideration.

 

[Marty fox]

You trust Josephus, a non Christian over the Gospel accounts that claim the Temple was rendered useless by God Himself?

You do realize that it was (according to history) rebels who ran Jerusalem. They were killing each other, and each other's priests to see who would have control of the Temple. How is God working in that mess? There was no humbling of the Jews, praying for God's forgiveness, repentance of sin, asking God to heal their land. There was rampant rebellion. It was a time of tribulation brought on by the Jews themselves.

Jesus had told them when they tried to trick Him, to render unto Ceasar the things which were Ceasar's. And unto God, the things which were God's. God no longer worked via the temple. God sent the Holy Spirit to teach and guide them. Yet they rebelled on all accounts.

That’s why God destroyed the temple. You need to remember that even the deciples did temple sacrifices in the book of acts after the resurrection. What did end in Gods eyes was the sin sacrifices after the resurrection

Josephus was a historical documentor who verified that Jesus existed

 

[Timtofly]

I guess God would have to actually say 144 Jewish men.

Women can defile themselves with women too

If there are only 144000 then why wouldn’t God put the seal of protection on the other Christians?

Sometimes we shouldn’t assume and also have too consider what the bible doesn’t actually say

How many woman disciples were there among the 12 original disciples?

Why are there not 13 tribes, and 13 disciples? You do realize that they had a sister? Genesis 30:20-21

"And Leah said, God hath endued me with a good dowry; now will my husband dwell with me, because I have born him six sons: and she called his name Zebulun. And afterwards she bare a daughter, and called her name Dinah."

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

I am actually posting one the the images that you actually used the pillars and Jesus tells us exactly what that is below

Revelation 3:12
12 The one who is victorious I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will they leave it. I will write on them the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on them my new name.

So who is right you or Jesus?

Pillar is actually used metaphorically to represent a permanent fixture - I do discern symbolism too!
This guy explains it better than I can.
Expository Files by Jon Quinn
["Interestingly, of the sixteen times the word “temple” is used in the Book of Revelation, only once does it refer to the church - Rev 11:1,2. The rest of the time, the word “temple” refers to the heavenly dwelling place, or sanctuary, of God. Heaven is His heavenly temple. Heaven does not contain a temple within it because the whole of heaven is God's temple, or dwelling place, containing His presence (Revelation 21:22).
So, if the “temple” here is heaven, what does it mean to be made a “pillar” there? It would not be for support. Rather, it would signify permanence. When one overcomes, he or she gains a permanent place in heaven (like a physical pillar would be a permanent part of a physical temple). Heaven becomes home eternally. (Note, this would not fit the church. In the church, I can overcome today but tomorrow I can leave the temple and forfeit my crown (See verse 11!)
So, Heaven does fit the context. Note text: (REV 3:12 - “I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will not go out from it anymore.” Jesus tells us that if we overcome now, for a little while, we will find a permanent place of joy, filled with wonderful experiences and great beauty and absolute confidence and security. In fact, this also fits with what the rest of the Bible says about heaven (John 3:36; 5:24; 14:1-3; Hebrews 5:9; 9:15; 11:10; 13-16; 1 Peter 1:4; Revelation 21:1-6; 22:5). Our hope of eternal life, of being forever with the Lord, motivates us to grow and endure and overcome so we may greet Jesus when He comes.. (1 Thessalonians 4:16,17)."]

Revelation 21:2 & 9-10
2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bridebeautifully dressed for her husband

9 One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.” 10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God.

The Church is the Bride of Christ. But did you think that the angel showed John a giant heavenly structure that meant the Church? Or was he first showing him, heaven first, where the bride would dwell and then the bride in these verses:
"The nations will walk by >>> its light <<<, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory >>> into it<<<. In the daytime (for there will be no night there) >>> its gates<<< will never be closed; and they will bring the glory and the honor of the nations >>> into it<<<; and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life." Rev. 21:24-27

Do you see the distinction here???