Partial preterisims and revelation chapter by chapter part 1

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Marty fox

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This is a good review I came across and although I don’t agree with every detail it is pretty close to what I believe

PP in Revelation



Chapter 1: Jesus appears to John, to give exhortation to the seven churches. The “coming of the Son of Man” is not referring to the Second Coming, but to the “judgment coming” of 70 AD, which John says was targeted against “the tribes of the Land” (the tribes of Israel).



Chapter 2-3: Jesus has John write seven letters to seven churches in Asia (near the island of Patmos where John was). The seven letters draw upon imagery from seven subsequent eras of Biblical history. The theme of each subsequent letter also alludes to a section of the Revelation itself.



Chapter 4: John is taken, in vision, to heaven. He sees the throne of God, the four “living creatures” (the cherubim/seraphim), and the 24 elders (who symbolically represent the whole Church).



Chapter 5: John sees God holding the scroll of the New Covenant. It is sealed with seven seals, which was recognized in first-century Judea as being the “will” of a deceased person. This scroll of the New Covenant is the will of Jesus Christ himself, who ascends to heaven and takes the scroll to open it. (30 AD)



Chapter 6: John sees the first six seals of the scroll broken open. Each seal draws a parallel to the prophecies of Christ in the Olivet Discourse, and to the Covenant curses of Leviticus 26 and Deuteronomy 28. These seals herald the overarching series of events that take place in the first-century, culminating in the war of Rome upon Judea. (30-70 AD)



Chapter 7: John sees the whole Church (the great multitude), along with the faithful remnant of Israel, symbolically represented as a group of 144,000. The twelve tribes of Israel are named, but rearranged for symbolic purposes. Judah is placed at the first of the list, because Jesus is the “Lion of Judah”. Dan is removed from the list because Genesis 49 calls him a “serpent”, who is the enemy of the Church in the Revelation. Dan is replaced by Manasseh, similar to how Judas was replaced by Matthias. They are sealed with the seal of God, to show that they are protected from the destruction during the Jewish-Roman War. (67-70 AD)



Chapter 8: John sees the seventh seal broken open. The New Covenant has been fully established, and God’s wrath upon apostate Old Covenant Israel is fully poured out. John’s visions start over, to show him the event leading up to the Jewish-Roman War from another perspective, via seven trumpets. The first four trumpets are blown, depicting the destruction that took place in Judea through plagues, famines, false teachings, etc.



Chapter 9: John sees the fifth trumpet blown. The pagan Romans, symbolized as locusts, invade Judea. They torment the Christ-rejecting Jews for five months (May-September 66 AD), inciting them to rebel against the Roman Empire. John sees the sixth trumpet blown. Roman armies stationed at the Euphrates River in Syria march on to Judea, straight to Jerusalem (Late 66 AD) where they kill numerous Christ-rejecting Jews.



Chapter 10: John has a vision of an angel. The angel symbolically depicts the uniting of the Jews (the Land) and the Gentiles (the Sea), and declares the “mystery of God” to be almost complete. [Romans 11.25; Ephesians 3.4-6; Colossians 1.27] He gives John a “little scroll” to eat and prophesy, a symbolic representation of John being given the Revelation itself.



Chapter 11: John is told to measure the Temple of God, which is the Body of Christ, the Church. [John 2.19-21; 1 Corinthians 3.16; Ephesians 2.19-22] The “outer court” of the temple and the city of Jerusalem (symbolic representations of apostate Israel) are left to the Gentiles (the Romans) to trample upon for 42 months. (February 67 – August 70 AD) John sees two witnesses (symbolic representations of the entire Church) persecuted by “the beast” (Rome) and “the great city” Jerusalem (apostate Israel). They are depicted as being “conquered” by Rome, but are resurrected and taken to heaven, a depiction of the Church’s victory in Christ. “The great city” Jerusalem is destroyed. The seventh trumpet is blown, and the Kingdom of God comes upon the world, and apostate Israel is destroyed, vindicating the righteous dead.



Chapter 12: John’s visions start over. A “woman” (natural Israel) gives birth to a “male child” (Christ) despite the opposition of the dragon (Satan). (Circa 4 BC) Christ is taken up to God’s throne (symbolically representing his victory upon the cross), and Satan and the fallen angels are exiled from heaven because of the power of Christ’s sacrifice (symbolically depicted as a war between the righteous angels, led by Michael, and wicked angels, led by Satan). (30 AD) The dragon attempts to destroy the woman (Satan’s attempts to destroy the Jewish apostles when they founded the Church), but fails. (30-35 AD) He goes on to make war upon “the rest of the woman’s offspring” (the Church as it grew to include more members, particularly the Gentiles). (35-64 AD)


Chapter 13: Satan gives his power to the Roman Empire and its Emperors (depicted as a sea-beast with seven heads). John gives a prophecy about the Empire’s death and subsequent resurrection that took place following Nero’s suicide. (68-69 AD) John describes the present persecution of the Christians by the Roman Empire, prophesying that it would last for 42 months. (November 64 – June 68 AD) John sees apostate Israel (depicted as an earth-beast disguised as a lamb) ally itself with the Roman Empire in this persecution. Apostate Israel’s false prophets perform false miracles in order to deceive people into rejecting Christ and following Caesar. (30-67 AD) The “mark of the beast” is Hebrew gematria that codifies the name of Nero Caesar into the number 666. The name is not believed to have been codified because John was afraid of persecution (he was already being persecuted), but because of the symbolism behind the number 666. The “mark” is not a literal tattoo, but refers to how apostate Israel required its opponents to submit to the Roman Emperors or face persecution. Anyone who took the mark was spared from the wrath of Rome and apostate Israel.



Chapter 14: John sees the 144,000, representing the whole Church, standing upon Mount Zion with Christ, a symbolic depiction that the Church will overcome the persecution of the Roman Empire and apostate Israel. John sees a “soul harvest” upon the earth by Christ, a symbolic representation of Christ’s divine protection of his followers during the wrath that God. Another “soul harvest” takes place, this time resulting in God’s wrath being poured out upon apostate Israel depicted as a “great winepress of the wrath of God”. John sees blood-wine flow out of the winepress, spreading for 1600 stadia. This is the approximate length of the Land of Israel; John is seeing a symbolic representation of God’s wrath being poured out upon the entire nation of apostate Israel. (67-70 AD)



Chapter 15: John’s visions start over. He sees seven bowls containing seven plagues, ready to be poured out upon apostate Israel.



Chapter 16: The seven plagues (summarizing the events of the Jewish-Roman War: 67-70 AD) are poured out, intentionally alluding to the ten plagues of Egypt. [Deuteronomy 28.27,60] Satan, the Roman Empire, and apostate Israel incite each other into war at “Armageddon”. The word literally means “Mountain of Megiddo”. This location does not literally exist, but is a symbolic representation of the Church’s salvation (the symbol of the “mountain”) being founded upon the destruction of God’s enemies (symbolized by Megiddo, which has a history of God’s enemies being destroyed there). [Luke 21.20,28,31] Jerusalem “the great city” is “split into three parts”, corresponding to the three factions of Zealots that took over the city in 67 AD, ultimately being the reason why the city was conquered by the Romans in 70 AD.



Chapter 17: John’s visions start over. He sees the harlot “Babylon the great”, which he is explicitly told is a symbolic representation of “the great city” Jerusalem. The harlot is “drunk with the blood of the saints”, showing Jerusalem’s guilt of persecuting the Church. The harlot is allied with the scarlet beast, showing apostate Israel’s alliance with the Roman Empire. John is told that the seven heads represent seven kings; these are the first seven emperors of the Roman Empire, beginning with Julius Caesar. This results in the sixth king being Nero Caesar, who was singled out by John’s prophecies in Revelation 13. The scarlet beast itself is the “eighth” king. The number 8 is the symbolic numeral of resurrection; hence the beast (the Roman Empire) is prophesied to die and resurrect, corresponding directly to the “mortal wound” that the beast receives and heals from in Revelation 13. (68-69 AD) The Roman Empire is described as attempting to destroy the Church, but failing (symbolically depicted as the beast warring upon the Lamb). (64-68 AD) In anger at failing to destroy the Church, the Roman Empire turns vengeance upon apostate Israel, the harlot, and destroys her. (67-70 AD)



Chapter 18: John records a lament by the world over Jerusalem’s death. He ends the lament with the statement that “in her was found the blood of … all who have been slain on earth”, directly linking to Christ’s statement that Jerusalem held the guilt for “all the righteous blood shed on earth”.
 

Ronald David Bruno

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This is a good review I came across and although I don’t agree with every detail it is pretty close to what I believe ...

That was a perfect and brief outline of Chapter 4. That is about all I can agree with!
The rest ... amazes me. I always knew that Preterists and Partial Preterists symbolize the book of Revelation, but I never looked into the details or realized the extant of symbolism used.
Tell me, what other book in the Bible is viewed almost entirely symbolically? God gave us His word for us to literally understand. He wants to communicate to us directly by using language that we nirmally communicate with and understand, not an entire book of symbolism. Certainly symbolism is used but is usually explained in scripture. Some people symbolize the entire book of Genesis too, to accommodate their Theistic Evolution Theory. That is bad theology too.
Was God's letters to the Seven Churches, messages to actual churches that existed? Yes they were. What message can we get from those letters? Jesus points out false doctrines, sins, lack of love and life and general works/ fruit. He chastises them and tells them to repent or else. So we see these same conditions in our present day churches and ourselves.
Was God's message in Revelation concerning anything that happened in Jerusalem in 70 AD? No, how it be, John wrote the book of Revelation around 95 AD.
There was no need to give us visions of something that happened in the past.

That is really what Preterists must deny and altar more than any one fact for their whole symbolic view to work, the date Revelation was written. If it was written in 95 AD, their whole theology crumbles. Then it would be just historical and literal, no need for symbolic interpretations.
They must deny the date and then proceed to deny every single event that God has given us that describes the Great Tribulation, the Second Coming of Christ and afterwards, His Millennial Kingdom. This is a blatant denial of scripture. You read it, but you did not receive a blessing did you? Because you distorted it - no blessing for that!

I have to thank you for exposing this theology and laying it out for all to see.

All you have to do is wait a little longer. You will begin to see all these events literally happen. I believe Satan is now in control of this One World Government. We have seen our freedoms stepped on. No other time in history have we seen every country comply to lockdowns, masks, social distancing, dictating what his knees is essential and which ones are not and soon forced vaccinations.
It is the "beginning of sorrows" spoken about in Matthew 24. It precedes the GT ... or we are already in it.
The four horsemen are coming, the Seals are being opened or have been already, the Trumpets will sound and the Bowls of God's wrath will be released - ON THE ENTIRE WORLD -- NOT JERUSALEM 7O AD.
Judgment is coming to all nations. All nations will come against Jerusalem, not ROME OF 70 AD. Wars, famines, pestilence, earthquakes in various places, catastrophic events, stress throughout the entire world never experienced amoung such a vast population of 7.8 billion people.
Just wait a little while longer. This Great Reset is part of it. This pandemic is part of it. The coming war in the Middle East of ten nations against Israel will be a major part if it.
You like symbolism. here is some. Check this out. The Rider on the White Horse was given a crown (corona virus). It does not say he was wearing it. Many believe this Rider is the Antichrist. The Rider goes out to conquer the world. Isn't that what this pandemic has done?
How does Satan work? Through lies, deception, fear and then control. Temptation too on an individual basis. But how could he control the entire world unless he caused fear. People comply when they are afraid.
I never thought it would start this way, but it is actually brilliant, its working. Not giving him praise, just wow. He doesn't even have to have people believe in him to control them.
He is using people like the Rothschilds, Rockefellers, Soros, Gates, Zukerberg, to do his thing. What's in the vaccine? More than you think. Just wait a little longer for your whole symbolic house of cards to collapse as you see literal scenario unfold.
 

Marty fox

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That was a perfect and brief outline of Chapter 4. That is about all I can agree with!
The rest ... amazes me. I always knew that Preterists and Partial Preterists symbolize the book of Revelation, but I never looked into the details or realized the extant of symbolism used.
Tell me, what other book in the Bible is viewed almost entirely symbolically? God gave us His word for us to literally understand. He wants to communicate to us directly by using language that we nirmally communicate with and understand, not an entire book of symbolism. Certainly symbolism is used but is usually explained in scripture. Some people symbolize the entire book of Genesis too, to accommodate their Theistic Evolution Theory. That is bad theology too.
Was God's letters to the Seven Churches, messages to actual churches that existed? Yes they were. What message can we get from those letters? Jesus points out false doctrines, sins, lack of love and life and general works/ fruit. He chastises them and tells them to repent or else. So we see these same conditions in our present day churches and ourselves.
Was God's message in Revelation concerning anything that happened in Jerusalem in 70 AD? No, how it be, John wrote the book of Revelation around 95 AD.
There was no need to give us visions of something that happened in the past.

That is really what Preterists must deny and altar more than any one fact for their whole symbolic view to work, the date Revelation was written. If it was written in 95 AD, their whole theology crumbles. Then it would be just historical and literal, no need for symbolic interpretations.
They must deny the date and then proceed to deny every single event that God has given us that describes the Great Tribulation, the Second Coming of Christ and afterwards, His Millennial Kingdom. This is a blatant denial of scripture. You read it, but you did not receive a blessing did you? Because you distorted it - no blessing for that!

I have to thank you for exposing this theology and laying it out for all to see.

All you have to do is wait a little longer. You will begin to see all these events literally happen. I believe Satan is now in control of this One World Government. We have seen our freedoms stepped on. No other time in history have we seen every country comply to lockdowns, masks, social distancing, dictating what his knees is essential and which ones are not and soon forced vaccinations.
It is the "beginning of sorrows" spoken about in Matthew 24. It precedes the GT ... or we are already in it.
The four horsemen are coming, the Seals are being opened or have been already, the Trumpets will sound and the Bowls of God's wrath will be released - ON THE ENTIRE WORLD -- NOT JERUSALEM 7O AD.
Judgment is coming to all nations. All nations will come against Jerusalem, not ROME OF 70 AD. Wars, famines, pestilence, earthquakes in various places, catastrophic events, stress throughout the entire world never experienced amoung such a vast population of 7.8 billion people.
Just wait a little while longer. This Great Reset is part of it. This pandemic is part of it. The coming war in the Middle East of ten nations against Israel will be a major part if it.
You like symbolism. here is some. Check this out. The Rider on the White Horse was given a crown (corona virus). It does not say he was wearing it. Many believe this Rider is the Antichrist. The Rider goes out to conquer the world. Isn't that what this pandemic has done?
How does Satan work? Through lies, deception, fear and then control. Temptation too on an individual basis. But how could he control the entire world unless he caused fear. People comply when they are afraid.
I never thought it would start this way, but it is actually brilliant, its working. Not giving him praise, just wow. He doesn't even have to have people believe in him to control them.
He is using people like the Rothschilds, Rockefellers, Soros, Gates, Zukerberg, to do his thing. What's in the vaccine? More than you think. Just wait a little longer for your whole symbolic house of cards to collapse as you see literal scenario unfold.

How do you know when revelation was written?

Do you realize that the symbolism in Revelation is tied to and explained to many different parts in the Old Testament?

It’s the revelation of Jesus Christ as in who he is and what He did. Jesus is God and He ushered in the new covenant that what revelation is really about. It’s a book of transition for the old covenant to the new covenant and from the earthly Jerusalem to the new Jerusalem.
 
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Iconoclast

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Ronald David Bruno,

Tell me, what other book in the Bible is viewed almost entirely symbolically? God gave us His word for us to literally understand. He wants to communicate to us directly by using language that we nirmally communicate with and understand, not an entire book of symbolism. Certainly symbolism is used but is usually explained in scripture.

This does not hold up as you describe.
 
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Marty fox

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That was a perfect and brief outline of Chapter 4. That is about all I can agree with!
The rest ... amazes me. I always knew that Preterists and Partial Preterists symbolize the book of Revelation, but I never looked into the details or realized the extant of symbolism used.
Tell me, what other book in the Bible is viewed almost entirely symbolically? God gave us His word for us to literally understand. He wants to communicate to us directly by using language that we nirmally communicate with and understand, not an entire book of symbolism. Certainly symbolism is used but is usually explained in scripture. Some people symbolize the entire book of Genesis too, to accommodate their Theistic Evolution Theory. That is bad theology too.
Was God's letters to the Seven Churches, messages to actual churches that existed? Yes they were. What message can we get from those letters? Jesus points out false doctrines, sins, lack of love and life and general works/ fruit. He chastises them and tells them to repent or else. So we see these same conditions in our present day churches and ourselves.
Was God's message in Revelation concerning anything that happened in Jerusalem in 70 AD? No, how it be, John wrote the book of Revelation around 95 AD.
There was no need to give us visions of something that happened in the past.

That is really what Preterists must deny and altar more than any one fact for their whole symbolic view to work, the date Revelation was written. If it was written in 95 AD, their whole theology crumbles. Then it would be just historical and literal, no need for symbolic interpretations.
They must deny the date and then proceed to deny every single event that God has given us that describes the Great Tribulation, the Second Coming of Christ and afterwards, His Millennial Kingdom. This is a blatant denial of scripture. You read it, but you did not receive a blessing did you? Because you distorted it - no blessing for that!

I have to thank you for exposing this theology and laying it out for all to see.

All you have to do is wait a little longer. You will begin to see all these events literally happen. I believe Satan is now in control of this One World Government. We have seen our freedoms stepped on. No other time in history have we seen every country comply to lockdowns, masks, social distancing, dictating what his knees is essential and which ones are not and soon forced vaccinations.
It is the "beginning of sorrows" spoken about in Matthew 24. It precedes the GT ... or we are already in it.
The four horsemen are coming, the Seals are being opened or have been already, the Trumpets will sound and the Bowls of God's wrath will be released - ON THE ENTIRE WORLD -- NOT JERUSALEM 7O AD.
Judgment is coming to all nations. All nations will come against Jerusalem, not ROME OF 70 AD. Wars, famines, pestilence, earthquakes in various places, catastrophic events, stress throughout the entire world never experienced amoung such a vast population of 7.8 billion people.
Just wait a little while longer. This Great Reset is part of it. This pandemic is part of it. The coming war in the Middle East of ten nations against Israel will be a major part if it.
You like symbolism. here is some. Check this out. The Rider on the White Horse was given a crown (corona virus). It does not say he was wearing it. Many believe this Rider is the Antichrist. The Rider goes out to conquer the world. Isn't that what this pandemic has done?
How does Satan work? Through lies, deception, fear and then control. Temptation too on an individual basis. But how could he control the entire world unless he caused fear. People comply when they are afraid.
I never thought it would start this way, but it is actually brilliant, its working. Not giving him praise, just wow. He doesn't even have to have people believe in him to control them.
He is using people like the Rothschilds, Rockefellers, Soros, Gates, Zukerberg, to do his thing. What's in the vaccine? More than you think. Just wait a little longer for your whole symbolic house of cards to collapse as you see literal scenario unfold.

One thing you are doing wrong here is thinking that the bible was written to us today when it’s not. It was written for us but not to us.

We need to read each book of the bible standing in the shoes or sandals of the people they were written too.

John’s audience would of understood the symbolism in revelation.
 

Ronald David Bruno

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One thing you are doing wrong here is thinking that the bible was written to us today when it’s not. It was written for us but not to us.

We need to read each book of the bible standing in the shoes or sandals of the people they were written too.

John’s audience would of understood the symbolism in revelation.
And so since since it wasn't written TO You, how does your Preterist group put on their shoes?
Again, which one of the other 65 books were to be entirely understood symbolically ... I mean since you are wearing their shoes? They couldn't even grasp literal interpretations. As much as the Pharisees knew their scriptures, many did not recognize Jesus as the Messiah. Miracle healings, a resurrection and they still did not believe. Nicodemus was a teacher, yet he could not grasp what Jesus was saying, "You must be born again..."
I often point out the importance of who was the message spoken/written to, which is an essential part of the hermeneutics.
God's word is rich and the Holy Spirit gives discernment for ALL who are born again. I dont have ti wear ancient shoes, I have the Holy Spirit. Do you? That is the question. Why would the Holy Spirit lead us to believe entirely different views?
 
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Iconoclast

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And so since since it wasn't written TO You, how does your Preterist group put in their shoes?
Again, which one of the other 65 books were to be entirely understood symbolically ... I mean since you are wearing their shoes? They couldn't even grasp literal interpretations. As much as the Pharisees knew their scriptures, many did not recognize Jesus as the Messiah. Miracle healings, a resurrection and they still did not believe. Nicodemus was a teacher, yet he could not grasp what Jesus was saying, "You must be born again..."
I often point out the importance of who was the message spoken/written to, which is an essential part of the hermeneutics.
God's word is rich and the Holy Spirit gives discernment for ALL who are born again. I dont have ti wear ancient shoes, I have the Holy Spirit. Do you? That is the question. Why would the Holy Spirit lead us to believe entirely different views?
Hello RDB,
I am glad you are here and passionate about the word of God.
Many of us have held much of what you are posting now, so perhaps your last couple of questions are a bit over the top?
If we do not hold what you do we do not have the Spirit of God? really?
We will demonstrate several things in this thread some that might just come as a surprise to you
.
I have asked each of the premill brothers to explain a portion of Mt.24, and revelation6.on the other partial preterism thread...feel from to comment on the sun, moon, and stars, the shy rolling up like a scroll, and the stars falling to the earth.
Help me out with what exactly is being described, and when?Thank you.
 

Marty fox

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And so since since it wasn't written TO You, how does your Preterist group put in their shoes?
Again, which one of the other 65 books were to be entirely understood symbolically ... I mean since you are wearing their shoes? They couldn't even grasp literal interpretations. As much as the Pharisees knew their scriptures, many did not recognize Jesus as the Messiah. Miracle healings, a resurrection and they still did not believe. Nicodemus was a teacher, yet he could not grasp what Jesus was saying, "You must be born again..."
I often point out the importance of who was the message spoken/written to, which is an essential part of the hermeneutics.
God's word is rich and the Holy Spirit gives discernment for ALL who are born again. I dont have ti wear ancient shoes, I have the Holy Spirit. Do you? That is the question. Why would the Holy Spirit lead us to believe entirely different views?

They didn't recognize Jesus to be the Messiah because He also claimed to be God. They didn't put the two together


I didn't say that all of revelation was symbolic its just the most symbolic book in a symbolic bible for example was the verses below symbolic or literal

Isiah 19:1
A prophecy against Egypt:

See, the Lord rides on a swift cloud
and is coming to Egypt.
The idols of Egypt tremble before him,
and the hearts of the Egyptians melt with fear.

Did the Egyptians actually see the Lord riding on a cloud or was it a symbolic sign of judgement?

In Acts chapter two Peter claimed that his days were the days of Joel chapter 2

14 Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, raised his voice and addressed the crowd: “Fellow Jews and all of you who live in Jerusalem, let me explain this to you; listen carefully to what I say. 15 These people are not drunk, as you suppose. It’s only nine in the morning! 16 No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:

17 “‘In the last days, God says,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your young men will see visions,
your old men will dream dreams.
18 Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days,
and they will prophesy.
19 I will show wonders in the heavens above
and signs on the earth below,
blood and fire and billows of smoke.
20 The sun will be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood
before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord.
21 And everyone who calls
on the name of the Lord will be saved.’


These symbolic signs were the signs of judgement on Jerusalem which were soon to come
 
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marks

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Chapter 7: John sees the whole Church (the great multitude), along with the faithful remnant of Israel, symbolically represented as a group of 144,000.
There is no reason whatsoever that I've ever found to see this as symbolic. And there is no information that I've ever found detailing what it would mean if it were symbolic.

Now, I have a great many objections like this, but this is one we can start with.

Why should it not be understood exactly as written?

Much love!
 

Ronald David Bruno

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Hello RDB,
I am glad you are here and passionate about the word of God.
Many of us have held much of what you are posting now, so perhaps your last couple of questions are a bit over the top?
If we do not hold what you do we do not have the Spirit of God? really?
We will demonstrate several things in this thread some that might just come as a surprise to you
.
I have asked each of the premill brothers to explain a portion of Mt.24, and revelation6.on the other partial preterism thread...feel from to comment on the sun, moon, and stars, the shy rolling up like a scroll, and the stars falling to the earth.
Help me out with what exactly is being described, and when?Thank you.

Read carefully, try to interpret what I said literally. It's not symbolic and you dont have to put in 2000 year old shoes to do it.
I ASKED Mr. FOX if he had the Holy Spirit?
I didn't say he did not! Some people out there don't understand what it means to be baptized by the Holy Spirit and claim to be Christians. I had a Catholic aunt (wonderful lady) who asked my mother if I was one of those "born again Christians"? She said it in front of me. It was a negative connotation. I let it go, figured she didn't read John 3:3 or even studied the Bible much at all. She probably just said a ton of Hail Mary's and Our Father's with her rosary beads and attended church that for most of her life was preached in Latin. ??

The Holy Spirit confirms His presence and relationship with us. Just asking Mr. FOX or if anyone has had that experience. It is unmistakable. Being blind and then seeing with a whole new perspective is quite something.
Then the second question is to all and it is a conundrum. Why would the Holy Spirit guide/ lead/ teach one group to discern that the Millennial Kingdom is coming and just the opposite to another group who deny it and discern an entire book as something symbollically different?
The question does sort of imply that one group may not be born again, only by logical reasoning that God guides us to one truth. But it is not certain and also possible that both groups may have the Holy Spirit and He just wants this whole scenario to be a mystery? There are a half dozen views coming from believers. So is He in essence telling us what He told Daniel, "It's non of your business, it is not for you to know - seal it up for a later time?" Is He just being silent about it or is He unraveling it slowly? Some believe we wkn't see it until it happens or understand it until after the fact. So if it already happened, I guess you got it and it went right over my head. I just don't believe all those events happened literally or symbolically.
If we are all born again, God purlosely left us with a mystery - all these conflicting views and much uncertainty. Or maybe He did not intend for us to be confused? In that case, there is one right view and all the others are wrong.
Do I have it all wrong or do you have it all wrong? We both think we are right. I go with the literal meaning, 1000 year Kingdom with Jesus ruling in Jerusalem and all the world worshipping Him and visiting Him, peace on earth, good will toward a men and animals. Preterists/PPs deny the whole scenario and change it's literal meaning. I go with all the literal events of the seals, trumpets and bowls and PPs change every single one to mean something abstract.

Jesus literally fulfilled hundreds of prophecies. Why should we expect Him not to literally fulfill hundreds of future prophecies?
The prophets told people what was going to happen, really happen, not symbolically happen.
 

Ronald David Bruno

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I didn't say that all of revelation was symbolic its just the most symbolic book in a symbolic bible for example was the verses below symbolic or literal
Your OP is a symbolic interpretation of 17 chapters of Revelation (except chapter 4). So why are you defending with other scripture in books. We can look at lots of symbolism in the Bible, but stick with the OP. Btw, most of the scriptures you presented I take literally.
 

Iconoclast

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Read carefully, try to interpret what I said literally. It's not symbolic and you dont have to put in 2000 year old shoes to do it.
I ASKED Mr. FOX if he had the Holy Spirit?
I didn't say he did not! Some people out there don't understand what it means to be baptized by the Holy Spirit and claim to be Christians. I had a Catholic aunt (wonderful lady) who asked my mother if I was one of those "born again Christians"? She said it in front of me. It was a negative connotation. I let it go, figured she didn't read John 3:3 or even studied the Bible much at all. She probably just said a ton of Hail Mary's and Our Father's with her rosary beads and attended church that for most of her life was preached in Latin. ??

The Holy Spirit confirms His presence and relationship with us. Just asking Mr. FOX or if anyone has had that experience. It is unmistakable. Being blind and then seeing with a whole new perspective is quite something.
Then the second question is to all and it is a conundrum. Why would the Holy Spirit guide/ lead/ teach one group to discern that the Millennial Kingdom is coming and just the opposite to another group who deny it and discern an entire book as something symbollically different?
The question does sort of imply that one group may not be born again, only by logical reasoning that God guides us to one truth. But it is not certain and also possible that both groups may have the Holy Spirit and He just wants this whole scenario to be a mystery? There are a half dozen views coming from believers. So is He in essence telling us what He told Daniel, "It's non of your business, it is not for you to know - seal it up for a later time?" Is He just being silent about it or is He unraveling it slowly? Some believe we wkn't see it until it happens or understand it until after the fact. So if it already happened, I guess you got it and it went right over my head. I just don't believe all those events happened literally or symbolically.
If we are all born again, God purlosely left us with a mystery - all these conflicting views and much uncertainty. Or maybe He did not intend for us to be confused? In that case, there is one right view and all the others are wrong.
Do I have it all wrong or do you have it all wrong? We both think we are right. I go with the literal meaning, 1000 year Kingdom with Jesus ruling in Jerusalem and all the world worshipping Him and visiting Him, peace on earth, good will toward a men and animals. Preterists/PPs deny the whole scenario and change it's literal meaning. I go with all the literal events of the seals, trumpets and bowls and PPs change every single one to mean something abstract.

Jesus literally fulfilled hundreds of prophecies. Why should we expect Him not to literally fulfill hundreds of future prophecies?
The prophets told people what was going to happen, really happen, not symbolically happen.
Thank you for coming to this thread I hope to answer every question you ask or at least provide an answer. I owe it to the other men also to provide answers to their questions.
in a couple hours when I get online I want to produce scripture that I believe represents the point of view I'm offering and I'm liking the interaction and I'm liking the good questions that each of you have raised and I'm trying to promote good interaction so we can shop on ourselves in the truth of scripture and in our service to our king
 
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marks

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Jesus literally fulfilled hundreds of prophecies. Why should we expect Him not to literally fulfill hundreds of future prophecies?
The prophets told people what was going to happen, really happen, not symbolically happen.
That's just it. Jesus was in the tomb 3 days, not 3 years or 3000 years. And on and on it goes, as you say, literal fulfillments.

And that which is symbol is identified. And the meaning of the symbol is given. Anything other than that simply lacks Scriptural authority.

Much love!
 
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marks

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19 I will show wonders in the heavens above
and signs on the earth below,
blood and fire and billows of smoke.
20 The sun will be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood
before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord.
21 And everyone who calls
on the name of the Lord will be saved.’


These symbolic signs were the signs of judgement on Jerusalem which were soon to come
What makes you so certain that they are not signs that will actually happen before the Day of YHWH?

And the question I always like to ask . . . what IF God were planning wonders and signs to be literally seen as described here, what would He say? Why should we not accept prophecy for what it says?

Much love!
 

Oseas

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Chapter 1: Jesus appears to John, to give exhortation to the seven churches. The “coming of the Son of Man” is not referring to the Second Coming, but to the “judgment coming” of 70 AD, which John says was targeted against “the tribes of the Land” (the tribes of Israel).

Unfortunately you started the thread with an interpretation not true.

Be careful, believe in Revelation 22:v.18-20, or get ready.
 

Iconoclast

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"Ronald David Bruno,

[Then the second question is to all and it is a conundrum.

Why would the Holy Spirit guide/ lead/ teach one group to discern that the Millennial Kingdom is coming and just the opposite to another group who deny it and discern an entire book as something symbollically different?]

God reveals and conceals truth as He wills. There are many reasons for it.

[The question does sort of imply that one group may not be born again, only by logical reasoning that God guides us to one truth.]
It is possible that some might be religious but without the Spirit. We are not to "logically" reason who is or is not saved.
I believe particular redemption is biblical truth. If you do not should I logically reason you do not have the Spirit? Do you see the problem?


[But it is not certain and also possible that both groups may have the Holy Spirit and He just wants this whole scenario to be a mystery?]

Now this is a very solid point. many things are worded in such a way that we have to diligently search them out. It keeps us sharp. I used to believe similar to what you express, but have modified certain things, I am still learning each day.

[There are a half dozen views coming from believers. So is He in essence telling us what He told Daniel, "It's non of your business, it is not for you to know - seal it up for a later time?" Is He just being silent about it or is He unraveling it slowly?]

I have come up with 3 rules....
1] Jesus is coming again on the last Day
2]Born again believers win IN CHRIST.
3]We are to serve God with all our strength no matter which view of eschatology we hold .



[Some believe we wkn't see it until it happens or understand it until after the fact. So if it already happened, I guess you got it and it went right over my head. I just don't believe all those events happened literally or symbolically.]

I am offering a different view here;

Postmillenial Partial Preterism...What is it? A Victorious View of the Gospel.


[Do I have it all wrong or do you have it all wrong? We both think we are right. I go with the literal meaning, 1000 year Kingdom with Jesus ruling in Jerusalem and all the world worshipping Him and visiting Him, peace on earth, good will toward a men and animals. Preterists/PPs deny the whole scenario and change it's literal meaning. I go with all the literal events of the seals, trumpets and bowls and PPs change every single one to mean something abstract.]
Postmillenial Partial Preterism...What is it? A Victorious View of the Gospel.

 

Marty fox

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What makes you so certain that they are not signs that will actually happen before the Day of YHWH?

And the question I always like to ask . . . what IF God were planning wonders and signs to be literally seen as described here, what would He say? Why should we not accept prophecy for what it says?

Much love!

Because Peter said it was in his days and Joel talks about any army described as locus with lions teeth (referenced in revelation 9) attacking Jerusalem. Then Jerusalem was destroyed shortly after Peter said that in those days.

That’s not a coincidence it’s symbolic prophecy fulfilled
 
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Marty fox

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There is no reason whatsoever that I've ever found to see this as symbolic. And there is no information that I've ever found detailing what it would mean if it were symbolic.

Now, I have a great many objections like this, but this is one we can start with.

Why should it not be understood exactly as written?

Much love!

Because People think that it is 12000 male virgin Jewish men from each tribe of Israel who take the gospel to the world when the bible doesn’t say that at all.

First it’s not even the 12 tribes of Israel because the tribe of Dan is replaced with the tribe of Manasseh. This is because Dan was called a serpent

All the bible says is that they are sealed by God for protection and that they are then before the throne in heaven singing.

The bible doesn’t even say that they are men just that they are virgins which stands for purity because Jesus makes us pure. The church is called the bride of the lamb but that doesn’t mean that we are all female.

Just as John hears of the lion of Judah he then looks and sees the slain lamb John also hears of the 144000 he then sees the great multitude from every nation.

I believe that they are symbolic of the church which came through the 12 tribes and the 12 deciples 12x12=144 and the thousand symbolic for many

What is the reason for mentioning them If it is a literal 144000 Jewish virgin men when all it does is mention them sealed by God and standing in heaven before the throne? Why would they be separated from the other saints mentioned Revelation when it doesn’t show them doing any special purposes?

The reason that they are mentioned is because they represent the church who are sealed with protection from Gods wrath
 
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Marty fox

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Your OP is a symbolic interpretation of 17 chapters of Revelation (except chapter 4). So why are you defending with other scripture in books. We can look at lots of symbolism in the Bible, but stick with the OP. Btw, most of the scriptures you presented I take literally.

I was showing that the bible is at times symbolic see post #18

So do you think that the Egyptians hearts actually melted or is that a symbolic description of total fear?

In revelation chapter 19 does Jesus slay people with a sword coming out of His mouth or is the sword symbolic for His word which is all powerful and saves or condemns?

There is a part two which goes through chapters 19-22 of Revelation

And yes I do have the Holy Spirit in me but we all get to decide our interpretation of scripture
 
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