PAST-Millennialism

[Ghada]

As for these other texts, Satan is not deceiving anybody in these. . Christ was never deceived by Satan's tempting Him.

I argue for the Bible Millennium, where Satan is bound and shut up in hell for a thousand years.

This half and half stuff you're talking about, is a millennium of your own mind and making. And, as here it is always interesting to see the doctrinal hop-scotch some people play around with, in order to try and jam their trapezoid piece into a Bible square.

I've heard of people separating their faith from their works, and even their sins from condemnation. But I've never heard anyone try to separate Satan's deceivings from the devil's temptations.

Sounds like a variation of Satan divided against Satan, by Satan divided against the Devil.

And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.

Tempted Satan but not decieved. And though man can be tempted of his own lust and decieved by himself, whensoever it's Satan doing the deceiving, it's by himself doing the tempting.

It is also never stated under the millennium conditions that Satan could not move about during this time period.

Cute. The Bible Millennium has him shut up in the pit of the earth, but you're right, God does not specifically say he, like the other chained angels that sinned with him, could not move around in hell at all.

However, if in your alternative millennial universe, your devil can move around on earth, then so be it. It's all science fiction fantasy to Bible believers anyway.

While the Bible chain binding Satan in the pit is great, yours must be great and awful long. Like some sort of ankle brace from hell, and loose enough to still move on earth. Bound but loosely so.

I'll bet the fae magick of your chain is what is separating Satan's power to deceive from the devil's work to tempt. I wonder if that's akin to separating faith from works? By faith Satan deceives, and by works he tempts? Deception is an error of faith only, and tempted is a sinful work?

As I've always said, personal prophecy and doctrine from one's own mind, can be very interesting and even fun to play with, like a cat swatting around a mouse, or a lion and a rat.

Scripture terms for the millennium also do not state that Satan would never try to deceive the nations during this time - only that he would not succeed in doing this.

I.e. the your millennial doctrine of still tempting without deceiving. However, we also see that's been going on from the beginning:

And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

The 2nd Adam was tempted the same, but was neither decieved nor disobedient to God.

And so, your 'millennium' is nothing new on earth and still ongoing. Which makes it thousands of years to date, and not a 'millennium' at all.

Unless you now want to get figurative as others and preach a pseudo-millennium, that is not an actual millennium in years, but really just any amount of days and years you want it to be, and call it a 'millennium'.

 

[Ghada]

Christ in John 12:31 and 14:30 announced warnings to the disciples just before His crucifixion that SIf you don't believatan was "NOW" going to be cast out - (cast out of heaven down to earth,

Jesus Christ saw when Satan was cast down to earth as lightning, to become prince and power of the air, walking to and fro through the earth to tempt man on earth to lust and sin against God, even as he first did in heaven.

He and His resurrected saints will see when he is chained and bound and cast into the pit of earth, not to tempt man during Christ's thousand year rule over all nations on earth.

that is, just as Revelation 12:9-10 wrote about). This would result in a judgment upon the world in those first-century days, brought by a wrathful Satan's influence - the whole "walking about as a roaring lion" thing.

Which, he has deceived you into writing off as in the past only.

This was the same "short time" of Satan's renewed deception of the nations at the end of the millennium in AD 33.

There is no Bible millennium on earth today nor yesterday.

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

No man has ever lived on earth for a thousand years, neither the first nor second Adam.

And certainly no man has reigned with Christ, before His resurrection in AD 33.

Your 'millennium' is all spirit of the air, with nothing grounded in truth on earth.

According to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:

Nor according to the resurrected Christ, but only according to the deceiver of the air.

Hymenaeus and Philetus were correct in one respect: the First resurrection of the Matthew 27:52-53 saints and Christ had already occurred.

As I said, your spirit-only millennial is all air and no solid footing on earth. No man has lived and reigned for a thousand years on earth, neither with or without the resurrected man Christ Jesus.

The longest your millennium on earth could last is 969 years. No doubt God foreseeing all such pseudo-doctrines and prophecies of man, He specifically did not even allow Methuselah to be a 1000 years old, lest the false prophets turn it into some sort of past-millennial proof.

Also, In order to prophesy your false 'spirit and millennium of the air', You now openly side with the false apostles over the true apostles of our risen Lord.

For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.

There is no correctness to Hymenaeus and Philetus, any more than Jannes and Jambres. They preached the resurrection is past, and was condemned by preaching any resurrection is past.

Even as the risen Lord's Millennium kingdom on earth is not past, with His resurrected saints reigning with Him for a thousand years.

But they were wrong in teaching that this was the only resurrection event that God intended to perform.

They were wrong in teaching period. And any effort to redeem them with amending their heresy, only makes the heresy worse adding insult to injury.

At least they are honest enough to say it plainly, rather than making it a fairy playtime all in the air, and not on ground.

For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

 

[Ghada]

This group of many Matthew 27:52-53 saints raised from the dead

And this group never died again,

They were raised to live out the rest of their natural lives on earth, as were the other 10 raised from the dead in the Bible. They were still mortal flesh and blood, not resurrected immortal flesh and bone.

Jesus Christ is the first man resurrected from the dead, and is still alive forever more:

I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen.

None of them raised from the dead have ascended bodily with the Lord into heaven, nor remain secretly alive on earth today. They have not been patiently waiting in cognito for the Lord's return, so as to be caught up together with the first newly resurrected saints.

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

That just isn't a possibility, by scripture standards.

I don't acknowledge your words and book of prophecy as 'Scripture'. Nor with your doctrinal forefathers Hymenaeus and Philetus.

What is impossible to you is made possible by God who prophecies and teaches it. God is not the liar here.

God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

Let's review your millennium that not touched ground on earth:

1. No man has lived on earth for a thousand years to reign with Christ yesterday nor today.

2. Christ's millennium is after His resurrection, not before.

3. No man has been resurrected from the dead with immortal body, in the likeness of Jesus' resurrection.

4. No man raised from the dead secretly remains still alive on earth, nor has any man ascended to heaven, as the resurrected Jesus Christ did. (Including Mohammed, whose false prophecy of doing so, is as false as any other doing so)

5. Satan is not bound by a chain in hell, that is still long and loose for moving on earth.

6. There is no deception by Satan, that is without temptation of the devil. He will cease doing so on earth for a thousand years during the Lord's rule over all nations. And he will shut up forever when cast into the lake of fire shortly after the thousand year rule of Christ is expired.

The Lord has not returned in power and glory through the air seen by all, nor have any of His saints been resurrected and bodily changed to meet Him there.

The Lord has yet to rule and govern all nations on earth, with power to judge, convict, and slay before Him on earth:

But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

Nor has any of His saints on earth, ever lived and reigned with Him for a thousand years on earth.

In the Psalms, King David had prophesied some of the millennium conditions beginning under Solomon's reign, but David died before it began.

David was speaking of his son Solomon on the throne. God was speaking of his son Solomon by birth and his son Jesus after the flesh.

Double prophecy in the Bible is beginners' guide 101 to interpretation of Bible prophecy.

 

[Ghada]

It's easy enough to see some things as past and some present and others future because (as you have pointed out) these things are seasonal, cyclical, and repetitive-- happening in a fashion over and over and over.....

Good point. Such as the church cycles over the ages repeating themselves. There are also many antichrists coming and going.

What is not cyclical is the 1000 year rule of Christ with His saints having power over the nations.

It will have to be with resurrected saints, unless men and women start living at least for a thousand years on earth. So far, the oldest was Methuselah at 969.

 

[Ghada]

Well I have...

Teaching your own stuff does not show errors in the argument of others. It's just opposing teaching.

Watch, and I will show you formal debates look into the arguments of others to show any error in them.

This is how it (God's millennium) progresses... is progressing.

No sheep on earth have lived for a 1000 years, nor are living for a thousand years reigning with Christ.

Your 'millennium' either has no saints alive on earth at the time, or it is not for a thousand years. The longest life of any man on earth was Methuselah for 969 years.

The only saints in Christ Jesus that could reign with Him in your Millennium, would be the dead in Christ, that are now alive in His presence in heaven.

And since that includes all saints dead in Christ since His resurrection, then your 'millennium' has been going on for over 2 thousand years.

So, you see how I addressed your specific point, and showed the fault in it by Bible teaching. I didn't just teach my own stuff instead.

Agree. This is what is often called the invisible Church... Christ's Church, made up of all those born again of the Spirit. Yes.

The invisible Spirit is in Christ's physical church on earth. And no saint in natural body has nor is reigning with Him for a thousand years.

A spirit-only church on earth, like a spirit-only millennium over earth, is as falsely called as a spirit-only salvation without works.

Agreed. It will be brought to completion, and this will bring the millennium and thus His millennial reign ~ to a close.

Your millennial rule is over continued wrath of man and tribulation of persecution over the Lord's saints.

The Lord's rule with His resurrected saints will be with rod of iron and righteousness, that does not allow war on earth, and especially not open persecution over the King's people world wide.

There will be; the very statement, "will be cut short for the sake of the elect" implies it, without question.

During the Lord's Millennium rule, there is no war nor persecution of the righteous.

During yours, things remain the same as the beginning with righteous Abel slain by wicked Cain.

 

[Ghada]

All. All will be judged according to what they have done (John 5:28-29; 1 Corinthians 3:13; Revelation 20:12). God will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury (Romans 2:6-8).

True.

They are still dead in their sin, as we once were, and may ~ but may not;

Which truth you now cast aside for some. There is no maybe about it. Sinner workers of iniquity are not dead to sinning, but are still dead in your sinning.

there is still hope for them for now

The only hope for sinners is to repent of sinning for Jesus' sake.

Well, as for us, John writes, "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us." (1 John 1:8-10). But yes, if anyone is not repentant and thus still of the flesh and not of the Spirit, and thus dwelling in his sin, then... yeah, that's a problem. As the writer of Hebrews says, "if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries" (Hebrews 10:26-27).

If you say so for yourself and others like you. Since you are still an unrepented worker of iniquity with your old unchanged heart of lust, then you have no right to say you have no sin nor lust in you.

~ remain so. But for the ones who will never be members of God's elect ~ whom we can't know right now; only God knows who He chose in Christ before the foundation of the world ~

Adding pagan fatalism of predetermined fate without freewill of man, does not help either your prophecy nor your doctrine.

Well, I agree, but that's not what Isaiah 55:8-9 are speaking to.

Yes, it is. As well as the Lord's thoughts and ways are righteous altogether.

The Lord is not hypocrite who thinks of Himself one way to justify Himself, while acting the opposite.

There is no inwardly righteous man, while doing unrighteousness works of the flesh.

Right, and why do we love Him, Ghada? John tells us in 1 John 4:19... "We love because he first loved us."

And how do we love Him? By keeping His commandments and doing His righteousness at all times.

 

[Ghada]

No, united. Heaven and earth will finally be one... again. The new heaven and the new earth. God is not "making all new things," but rather making all things new.

And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:

They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;

And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.

Like an old folded up garment, the Lord casts this heaven and earth away, to be changed for His new created heaven and earth.

And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

The closest this earth to ever being born again, was after the flood.

 

[PinSeeker]

Let’s see…

Teaching your own stuff does not show errors in the argument of others.

Not if they don’t want to see it, no. I’m not really trying to show errors in your arguments, Ghada. What I hope is that you’ll see them for yourself, my friend.

No sheep on earth have lived for a 1000 years, nor are living for a thousand years reigning with Christ.

Well, but who’s saying such a ridiculous thing? Certainly not I…

Your 'millennium' either has no saints alive on earth at the time…

You and I (and a lot of other saints) are alive, are we not? So what you say here is ridiculous.

…or it is not for a thousand years.

Ah, well I’ve been very clear that God’s millennium of Revelation 20 is not literally 1,000 earth years, but certainly not less, we’re at 2,000-plus and still counting. The actual length of the millennium in earth years is set, though, but our years really have no relevance. The thousand years… well, read on, here…

The longest life of any man on earth was Methuselah for 969 years.

Sure.

The only saints in Christ Jesus that could reign with Him in your Millennium, would be the dead in Christ, that are now alive in His presence in heaven.

Ah, now we’re getting to it. Sort of. But you’re still missing the point, Ghada. The text says, as you well know, I’m sure, “They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.” Now, I know very well you’re going to stick to your guns, and that’s fine, but you have to admit that that can validly be read as happening over the course of the thousand years ~ rather than “it’s a one-time event in which all the saints die at the same time an rule with Christ the entire thousand years.” And I say what I underlined is the correct way to see it. Think about it.

And since that includes all saints dead in Christ since His resurrection, then your 'millennium' has been going on for over 2 thousand years.

That is correct. God’s millennium is not a literal 1,000 earth-years period. The millennium is a symbolic period represented as a thousand years but actually the fullness of the time he has appointed to complete the construction of His Israel, all of His elect. I have been very clear in stating that.

The invisible Spirit is in Christ's physical church on earth.

Well, all Christians have the Spirit. But we do not know who all of God’s elect are. In that sense, Christ’s Church is invisible.

And no saint in natural body has nor is reigning with Him for a thousand years.

We don’t physically live a thousand years, right. But that’s really not relevant. See above.

A spirit-only church on earth, like a spirit-only millennium over earth, is as falsely called as a spirit-only salvation without works.

This is… gobbledygook. I don’t even know what this means… LOL!

Your millennial rule is over continued wrath of man and tribulation of persecution over the Lord's saints.

Christs millennial rule may not look like we would like it to look, but one thing that cannot be refuted is that God is in total control, and everything is happening according to what God has ordained, and God’s purposes cannot be thwarted. It may look otherwise to us, but Gods purposes cannot be thwarted. I would argue too that from what Revelation actually says, we can see really that the more it seems sin and death and even Satan are winning, the more Christ ~ and we in Him ~ are winning, and the more the final victory is assured.

During the Lord's Millennium rule, there is no war nor persecution of the righteous.

The opposite is true; see above. His eternal rule will be what you say here; there will be no more sin or death. Everlasting joy will be on our heads, and all sorrow and sighing will flee away.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Truthnightmare]

The first resurrection of Acts 26:26 is a different resurrection entirely from the first resurrection of Revelation 20:6. The physical resurrection of Christ Jesus is obviously in view in Acts 26:23, but the first resurrection of Revelation 20:4-6 is the resurrection from death in sin of each of the saints of God over the course of the millennium, the resurrection of individual members of God's elect as they come to Christ, individually, that Paul talks about in Ephesians 2:8.

Revelation 20:4-6 is the resurrection from death in sin of each of the saints of God over the course of the millennium,

Revelation 20:4-6
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. KJV​

I think that what happens is that people spiritualize the term "rest of the dead" to mean 'rest the dead who are damned to the fires.' This is not the case, some of these "the dead" are found in the book of life and go on to the eternity as overcomers. Perhaps the word "dead" gives an implication of a meaning that it does not mean… for, at this time ALL FLESH is dead, all are "the dead", until they are resurrected. And by saying "the rest of the dead" in verse 5 above, it naturally includes that even those who were martyrs, but took part in the first resurrection, were once among "the dead", because it says: "the REST of the dead."

Also, had they not died, why need they resurrect? So they did die, but are not yet resurrected; but they still exist, they just have no form or body and are contained in their mansion in Heaven, on whichever side they may be on individually.

Very nice discussion you guys are having….

 

[PinSeeker]

Sinner workers of iniquity are not dead to sinning, but are still dead in your sinning.

LOL! See, here again, I don’t even know what this means…

The only hope for sinners is to repent of sinning for Jesus' sake.

Uh, well, yes… and for ours…

Since you are still an unrepented worker of iniquity with your old unchanged heart of lust…

Ah, so you can see hearts, as God does… Through your computer screen… I seeeeee…. LOL!

… then you have no right to say you have no sin nor lust in you.

None of us do. Not you, not me, not anybody, in this life. Unless one wants to just lie to himself, maybe, but I would recommend against that…

Adding pagan fatalism of predetermined fate without freewill of man, does not help either your prophecy nor your doctrine.

Ah yes, free will… So often things are brought back to that, but it totally misses the point. Alas…

…the Lord's thoughts and ways are righteous altogether.

Right, but far above ours, the point being… getting us back to what we were discussing… maybe, just maybe, what may seem disastrous and terrible and sad and any other negative way of describing the things we see and hear of in this world God is still in control of and is using them to accomplish all He has said He would accomplish, even total redemption itself.

The Lord is not hypocrite who thinks of Himself one way to justify Himself, while acting the opposite.

LOL! Agreed. LOL!

There is no inwardly righteous man, while doing unrighteousness works of the flesh.

Well, in and of oneself, there is no one righteous, no, not one (Psalm 14:3; Romans 3:10). We all fall short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23). But, thanks be to God, the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord (Romans 6:23). If you tack “willingly” or “deliberately” onto the end of this sentence ~ and then mean it in the sense of Hebrews 10:26-27 (“For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries” ~ then yes, I agree.

And how do we love Him? By keeping His commandments and doing His righteousness at all times.

Sure. If we love Him, we will do this. But our love, like everything else about us, is not perfect… yet. We are being made perfect, and one day will be, but not in this life. In this life, we can only be credited as righteous, by believing God, as Abraham did. In this life, we can only be clothed in the righteousness of Christ, as Abraham (and everyone else mentioned in Hebrews 11) was.

Grace and peace to you, Ghada.

 

[PinSeeker]

I think that what happens is that people spiritualize the term "rest of the dead" to mean 'rest the dead who are damned to the fires.' This is not the case…

That’s at least part of it, I agree.

, some of these "the dead" are found in the book of life and go on to the eternity as overcomers. Perhaps the word "dead" gives an implication of a meaning that it does not mean… for, at this time ALL FLESH is dead, all are "the dead", until they are resurrected. And by saying "the rest of the dead" in verse 5 above, it naturally includes that even those who were martyrs, but took part in the first resurrection, were once among "the dead", because it says: "the REST of the dead."

Also, had they not died, why need they resurrect? So they did die, but are not yet resurrected; but they still exist, they just have no form or body and are contained in their mansion in Heaven, on whichever side they may be on individually.

Right, but there’s more to this being dead than many realize, too. There are dead people walking among us even now. But some will not remain in that condition.

Very nice discussion you guys are having….

Thanks! Although… I don’t think Ghada is being very nice. But that’s… okay.

Grace and peace to you, TN.

 

[Truthnightmare]

That’s at least part of it, I agree.


Right, but there’s more to this being dead than many realize, too. There are dead people walking among us even now. But some will not remain in that condition.


Thanks! Although… I don’t think Ghada is being very nice. But that’s… okay.

Grace and peace to you, TN.

Who is dead but yet walks amongst us? I proclaim that a person that walks amongst us is not dead.

I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.”

but there’s more to this being dead than many realize, too

Are angels dead….

Hebrews 13:2
Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.

If it be Gods will, TN, a hop and skip to Athens Al.

Ghada is just a little rough around the edges,

 

[Ghada]

Ah, free will... No one denies we have free will, Ghada. No one.

Denying anyone can repent of anything by the power of their own will, is denying anyone has free will to do good or evil, and repent for one's own purposes.

Only those repenting God's commanded way from all sinning for Jesus' sake, are repenting by the will of God, with power given to cease the sinning.

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Hmmm... well this seems a rather short-sighted view of sin itself.

It's not a view of sin, but the fact of man's power to do good or evil, and to repent of evil, if he will.

The only ones that cannot repent of sin, is because they are hardened in heart not to repent.

The stiff-necked unrepentant can't repent, because they will not. Self-explanatory.

Sure. But still, it depends on whether one is of his father the devil or not as to whether he or she ~ of his or her own free will ~ will or not...

Servants of the devil can repent of anything they want. The devil doesn't mind, so long as they are not repenting of all sinful things for Jesus' sake.

The devil promotes all religions of man with 'progressive' sanctification and gradual repentance, at their own will of convenience.

Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

But when it's the pure religion of godly repentance from all sinning for Jesus' sake, that's when the devil gets angry wholly forsaking his kingdom of darkness.

Well, agreed, sure. If you think I'm denying this, you're very mistaken.

So long as you continue to preach the gospel of salvation unto repentance of convenience, then you are not preaching the Bible gospel of whole repentance unto salvation of God.

Our changing our deeds and ways is a result of God's "changing the heart and life by His Spirit"

Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit:

Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out,

For godly sorrow worketh repentance unto salvation not to be repented of

God commands whole repentance unto salvation. You say salvation unto partial repentance.

Man's half-changes his heart to repent in part. God changes the whole heart new, by repentance in full.

But again:

As God says to the Israelites through Ezekiel (36:25-27),"I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules."

You're repeating yourself, without acknowledge my responses.

And Paul draws directly from Ezekiel's words when He writes to the Ephesians (2:4-10), "But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ ~

Same here

And again, a couple of other quotes from the apostle Paul: He exhorts us to "work out (our) own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure" (Philippians 2:12-13;

Same here

Because John has a few words that you might remember. See 1 John 1:8-10 ~ "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us."

Same here.

The crux of the matter is, if the heart is changed for the better ~

Religion of man changes the heart and life for the better, but never wholly and completely for the good.

Progressive sanctification makes for better religion in this life, not for a whole new creature with all things now of God in this life and forever.

Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ,

if we are made alive to God, and placed in Christ, and given the Spirit, the will inevitably changes for the good.

The only inevitable thing about your gradual repentance, is that it never ends in sinning no more.

I say, Ghada, that the Christian life is one of continual repentance.

Exactly. Continual repentance gradually inevitably progressively endlessly on and on and on...A blunted knife of circumcision that never quite cuts through all the old foreskin.

Do you believe that you no longer sin?

Do you believe in going with Jesus and sinning no more?

 

[Ghada]

Ah, Ezekiel 18:30-32... So often misconstrued...

When something too plain to misconstrue, is spoken of as being misconstrued by believing it, it's always to construe it into the opposite of what it plainly says.

As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Here, repentance is not being urged on Jerusalem, for the preceding chapters affirm that its destruction is assured.

Now you deny there has always been a remnant that repented.

Rather, the exiles are pressed to repent and take responsibility for their moral lives. Thus, the appeal is to "make yourselves a new heart and spirit," in contrast with Ezekiel 11:19 and Ezekiel 36:26 (both of which I have quoted here; see above), where these are the gift of God. The restatement of God's displeasure in anyone's death is the basis for the final entreaty to "turn and live."

The commandment is always to repent of all sinning of God's sake, to receive the free gift of a new heart and life with God.

And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

Repent ye to be converted with a new heart is the commandment of God. It doesn't have to be repeated by God every time He speaks of giving a new heart.

Both grace and faith are not mentioned every time with salvation and justification, but grace and faith is always necessary to be saved.

Just as repentance for salvation.

For godly sorrow worketh repentance unto salvation not to be repented of:

That's why you try to reconstrue the Scripture of repentance, as being unnecessary for a new heart of salvation.

Curious that you keep quoting John here but then proceed to turn what he says on its ear...

Whatever.

you misunderstand. Wow.

LOL!


Again... you misunderstand. Wow.

Whatever

 

[Timtofly]

Who is dead but yet walks amongst us? I proclaim that a person that walks amongst us is not dead.

I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.”

The offspring of Adam and Eve since Seth are all "the dead". The Second Birth removes one's status spiritually as now the living who will never taste death.

The day the redeeemed soul leaves Adam's dead corruptible physical body is the day of redemption out of physical death. One is no longer part of "the dead" at that point in their existence.

That is the same instant, a redeemed soul enters God's permanent incorruptible physical body. 2 Corinthians 5:1

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens."

 

[3 Resurrections]

Let's review your millennium that not touched ground on earth:

1. No man has lived on earth for a thousand years to reign with Christ yesterday nor today.

2. Christ's millennium is after His resurrection, not before.

3. No man has been resurrected from the dead with immortal body, in the likeness of Jesus' resurrection.

4. No man raised from the dead secretly remains still alive on earth, nor has any man ascended to heaven, as the resurrected Jesus Christ did. (Including Mohammed, whose false prophecy of doing so, is as false as any other doing so)

5. Satan is not bound by a chain in hell, that is still long and loose for moving on earth.

6. There is no deception by Satan, that is without temptation of the devil. He will cease doing so on earth for a thousand years during the Lord's rule over all nations. And he will shut up forever when cast into the lake of fire shortly after the thousand year rule of Christ is expired.

#1) The scripture's language does not require that these individuals themselves reign a total of a thousand-years of their own lifetime. These individuals took part in "reigning in life by one Christ Jesus" during the ordinary span of their lifetime, at some point while the thousand years time period was in place. It's rather like an art teacher saying, "This artist was a Renaissance painter", because this person lived and created works of art at some point during the Renaissance - not that they lived and produced paintings for the entire Renaissance period from start to finish.

#2) John wrote in Rev. 20:5 that the millennium ended when the First resurrection had taken place. If you can't figure out that "Christ the FIRST-fruits" was raised to life in the FIRST resurrection, there really is no hope for you to make any sense of the millennium..

#3) Anyone raised to life again bodily in the scriptures did so by being changed into an immortal body, brought to life again by the power of the Spirit - just like Christ. You might as well say that the Holy Spirit can die as to say that these individuals died again for a second time. This is not possible according to the ONE time ONLY death appointment for all mankind in Hebrews 9:27. Your doctrine on this point clearly contradicts scripture in order to fit your preconceived opinions.

#4) All of those individuals bodily raised to life again in the scripture were the ones who were "alive" but who had "remained" on earth in those glorified bodies, as Paul referred to them in 1 Thess. 4:15 & 17 They all left this planet together with the newly-resurrected multitude of saints in the bodily resurrection that Paul told Felix was "ABOUT TO BE" in Acts 24:15.

#5) Satan was never said to be bound in Hell. He was in the "ABYSS" (abusson), which "abyss" Christ also was in during His three days and nights before He was bodily resurrected (Romans 10:7) . The "abyss" is not a place on earth with coordinates that can be located. It is a condition or a state of being - namely a condition of something not functioning as it had done before. Satan's deception of the nations was not functioning during those thousand years as it had been prior to the beginning of the millennium, and as his deception was renewed for only a "short time" back in the first century.

#6) It is true that no deception by Satan could be without temptation by the devil. But there certainly has been temptation by the devil without there having to be deception that resulted. Christ resisting that temptation proves this point.

There is another simple means of proving that Satan's deception of the nations was bound, even before Christ's earthly ministry began. Christ once made the point in Matthew 12:28-29 that no one could enter a strong man's house and plunder his goods unless he FIRST bound the strong man. After that binding, his house could be plundered. Christ was comparing His ability to cast out devils (plundering Satan's goods) with the fact that Satan had FIRST been bound before that. Therefore, this literal thousand-year millennium binding of Satan's ability to deceive the nations began even BEFORE Christ's earthly ministry started. And ended with the "First resurrection", according to John.

 

[PinSeeker]

Who is dead but yet walks amongst us? I proclaim that a person that walks amongst us is not dead.

Not physically, no. I would answer your question with a question: Did Adam and Eve really die as God told Adam he would on the very day he ate from the forbidden tree (Genesis 2:17)? And, regarding us believers, Paul and Peter both say we were made alive when we were converted to Christ; Paul even explicitly says we were formerly dead like the rest of mankind before this happened to us…

I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.”

Absolutely. Again, a question: Is God the god of unbelievers?

Are angels dead….

Well no… that’s a rather puzzling question to ask. Relevance?

If it be Gods will, TN, a hop and skip to Athens Al.

Um… what? Is this like an invitation or something?

Ghada is just a little rough around the edges,

That he is. Just a little… He’snot alone; there’s plenty of that in this forum, that’s for sure…

Grace and peace to you!

 

[WPM]

Teaching your own stuff does not show errors in the argument of others. It's just opposing teaching.

Watch, and I will show you formal debates look into the arguments of others to show any error in them.


No sheep on earth have lived for a 1000 years, nor are living for a thousand years reigning with Christ.

Your 'millennium' either has no saints alive on earth at the time, or it is not for a thousand years. The longest life of any man on earth was Methuselah for 969 years.

The only saints in Christ Jesus that could reign with Him in your Millennium, would be the dead in Christ, that are now alive in His presence in heaven.

And since that includes all saints dead in Christ since His resurrection, then your 'millennium' has been going on for over 2 thousand years.

So, you see how I addressed your specific point, and showed the fault in it by Bible teaching. I didn't just teach my own stuff instead.



The invisible Spirit is in Christ's physical church on earth. And no saint in natural body has nor is reigning with Him for a thousand years.

A spirit-only church on earth, like a spirit-only millennium over earth, is as falsely called as a spirit-only salvation without works.



Your millennial rule is over continued wrath of man and tribulation of persecution over the Lord's saints.

The Lord's rule with His resurrected saints will be with rod of iron and righteousness, that does not allow war on earth, and especially not open persecution over the King's people world wide.




During the Lord's Millennium rule, there is no war nor persecution of the righteous.

During yours, things remain the same as the beginning with righteous Abel slain by wicked Cain.

Revelation 20 is speaking about "the souls" (plural) collectively reigning for the symbolic millennial period. This does not exclude those who die “in Christ” today from joining the overall ongoing heavenly millennial reign from the first Advent. If I was to say that ‘Americans have been standing for freedom for a few hundred years’, that does not in any way negate or exclude current Americans from being part of that ongoing group. That did not require them to be alive 250 years ago when their forefathers were pioneering the way. All would consider them part of that continuous fight for freedom.

Similarly, the Christian witness has been powerfully alive in the British Isles since before the Reformation 500 years ago. However, the current believer in the United Kingdom weren’t around 500 years ago, although they would very definitely be considered part of that great general cohesive throng that have stood for the truth of God’s Word. Revelation 20 is therefore similarly talking about the collective reign of the saints during (this so far) 2,000 years intra-advent period.

 

[PinSeeker]

Not bad; a bit of a mixed bag…

#1) The scripture's language does not require that these individuals themselves reign a total of a thousand-years of their own lifetime. These individuals took part in "reigning in life by one Christ Jesus" during the ordinary span of their lifetime, at some point while the thousand years time period was in place. It's rather like an art teacher saying, "This artist was a Renaissance painter", because this person lived and created works of art at some point during the Renaissance - not that they lived and produced paintings for the entire Renaissance period from start to finish.

EXCELLENT! . I mean… not hard to discern. But great! Thank you.

#2) John wrote in Rev. 20:5 that the millennium ended when the First resurrection had taken place. If you can't figure out that "Christ the FIRST-fruits" was raised to life in the FIRST resurrection, there really is no hope for you to make any sense of the millennium..

Ugh. No, that His resurrection makes ours possible… and certain. You do get that last part (possible and certain) right, so not all of what you say here is bad…

#3) Anyone raised to life again bodily in the scriptures did so by being changed into an immortal body, brought to life again by the power of the Spirit - just like Christ. You might as well say that the Holy Spirit can die as to say that these individuals died again for a second time. This is not possible according to the ONE time ONLY death appointment for all mankind in Hebrews 9:27.

Ugh. This is a conflation of the first and second resurrections. When we all ~ all ~ experience the second resurrection ~ the one physical, bodily resurrection ~ some will be resurrected to eternal life, and the others to eternal judgment (which is the second death). Jesus is crystal clear on the second resurrection in John 5:28-29. Again, not all bad; yes, everyone only dies physically once…

#4) All of those individuals bodily raised to life again in the scripture were the ones who were "alive" but who had "remained" on earth in those glorified bodies, as Paul referred to them in 1 Thess. 4:15 & 17 They all left this planet together with the newly-resurrected multitude of saints in the bodily resurrection that Paul told Felix was "ABOUT TO BE" in Acts 24:15.

I’m… not sure what in the world you’re talking about here… Paul was telling the Thessalonians that they had nothing to fear concerning themselves and those loved ones who are believers who die physically before Christ returns, that He will bring them with Him… and that those who are still alive when the Lord returns will not precede them. Christ’s return is yet a future event, of course. And even then, many thought Christ’s return was very soon. It always was soon, and still is, but not necessarily soon from our human perspective. God is not within our linear time; He always is. He is eternal, and time is part of His creation. He is always present in what we sometimes call the “eternal now,” as His very name, I AM, strongly suggests.

#5) Satan was never said to be bound in Hell. He was in the "ABYSS" (abusson), which "abyss" Christ also was in during His three days and nights before He was bodily resurrected (Romans 10:7) . The "abyss" is not a place on earth with coordinates that can be located. It is a condition or a state of being - namely a condition of something not functioning as it had done before. Satan's deception of the nations was not functioning during those thousand years as it had been prior to the beginning of the millennium, and as his deception was renewed for only a "short time" back in the first century.

Welllll… Again, a mixed bag. I’ll just say yet again that Satan cannot ~ because God is not allowing it ~ prevent the spread of the Gospel to people of all tongues, tribes, and people-groups. This is what it means that Satan is bound. With the first coming of Jesus, the Gospel was opened to Gentiles and no longer reserved for the Israelites. And this is still the case, in the present age, God’s millennium. We may be very, very close, even from our perspective, to all the Gentile elect and all the Jewish elect ~ and thus all Israel ~ being saved, but there are still unreached people groups out there. But that’s what will bring God’s millennium to a close.

#6) It is true that no deception by Satan could be without temptation by the devil. But there certainly has been temptation by the devil without there having to be deception that resulted. Christ resisting that temptation proves this

Um… okay…

There is another simple means of proving that Satan's deception of the nations was bound, even before Christ's earthly ministry began. Christ once made the point in Matthew 12:28-29 that no one could enter a strong man's house and plunder his goods unless he FIRST bound the strong man. After that binding, his house could be plundered. Christ was comparing His ability to cast out devils (plundering Satan's goods) with the fact that Satan had FIRST been bound before that.

I’ve said this a few times here in various threads. Excellent.

Therefore, this literal thousand-year millennium binding of Satan's ability to deceive the nations began even BEFORE Christ's earthly ministry started.

Agreed. Really with His birth. The Magi (wise men) are proof of that.

And ended with the "First resurrection", according to John.

Ah, well, it will end when all the elect have experienced the first resurrection.

Grace and peace to all.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Ah, well, it will end when all the elect have experienced the first resurrection.

Is your position that the "first resurrection" event is only the spiritual awakening to eternal life which all the elect experience? If so, then you are essentially saying that this "spiritual awakening to a state of eternal life" was also shared by Christ Jesus, since we are "joint heirs" with Him. The sinless Christ did not require a resurrection of His spirit - only a resurrection of His dead physical body. The reason we are called "joint heirs" with Christ is due to the assured promise that we will share the same kind of glorified bodily resurrection He experienced.

John presents the "First resurrection" as a single specific point on the calendar when the millennium is finished - not something which takes place billions of times whenever a new elect individual is given eternal life of the spirit. If the "First resurrection" in this case was speaking only of the spiritual awakening to life of the human spirit of the elect, then you would essentially have another millennium coming to an end every time each one of the billions of elect are given a spiritual resurrection to life.

As I've said above, all the elect share in the benefits which Christ's "First resurrection" event secured for us, but we were not the bodily-resurrected participants in that first-century event in AD 33. That designation was given to the Matthew 27:52-53 saints raised that same day as "Christ the First-fruits".

I’m… not sure what in the world you’re talking about here… Paul was telling the Thessalonians that they had nothing to fear concerning themselves and those loved ones who are believers who die physically before Christ returns, that He will bring them with Him… and that those who are still alive when the Lord returns will not precede them. Christ’s return is yet a future event, of course. And even then, many thought Christ’s return was very soon. It always was soon, and still is, but not necessarily soon from our human perspective. God is not within our linear time; He always is. He is eternal, and time is part of His creation. He is always present in what we sometimes call the “eternal now,” as His very name, I AM, strongly suggests.

When Christ Jesus predicted the terms of His return, He was very specific that all of those predicted events in Luke 21:7-36 were "about to come to pass" in the generation His disciples were then living in. Some of those He spoke to of the people would not have died before He returned (Matthew 16:27-28). This was the second coming, which came to pass in AD 70 after all the events Christ predicted had come to pass. Any saints who had already been resurrected and made alive again (like Lazarus, Dorcas, the Matthew 27:52-53 saints, etc.) were the "alive and remaining" ones in 1 Thess. 4 which waited for the rest of the saints to be resurrected, and then joined them in the clouds to meet the Lord together in the air. The rapture promise was for them in AD 70 - not for us at the next (third) bodily resurrection event in our future.